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Old 2011-08-30, 02:10   Link #1
Reckoner
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Make Favorite Character Polls 1 vote Only?

I feel with the multiple selection abilities for character poll threads on this forum's subforum, the polls kind of lose any and all meaning. I feel by making people choose "one" character, or at least limiting the amount it would serve as better statistical data.

Thoughts?
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Old 2011-08-30, 08:02   Link #2
Masuzu
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Yeah, it does kind of lose some of its purpose when you can just vote for everybody.
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Old 2011-08-30, 09:06   Link #3
milan kyuubi
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Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
Yeah, it does kind of lose some of its purpose when you can just vote for everybody.
That's why the thread stater can post something like this in his/her's thread(S) with poll.

Pick your fave characters, up to 3 characters max.
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Old 2011-08-31, 20:28   Link #4
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I don't think the current approach has no meaning, but it does have a slightly different meaning. No matter which way you do it, the overall favourite characters will tend to the top, and the least favourite characters will tend to the bottom. The "most favourited" characters will still end up leading the poll. But the net effect will be an "even-ing" of the results given that people will feel more open to pick secondary/additional characters they liked rather than just limiting themselves to one and only one. The results will thus tend to be less polarizing and more of a general reflection of liked/disliked characters.

I suspect one of the reasons it has traditionally been done this way was to prevent "fanboy wars" where people try all sorts of funniness to ensure their character "wins". This way there's less pressure and less risk. If people want to vote for just one character they can, but they can also vote for many, including two characters that might be otherwise seen as "rivals". It's a general indication of "likability" without being an out-and-out popularity contest. We don't necessarily want people to take the poll too seriously, but mostly to use it as an opportunity to have a conversation. There are plenty of other "battle royale" opportunities for anime characters all the time.

I also don't think we have the technical ability to limit the number of selections to anything other than either one or unlimited, but milan kyuubi's suggestion that you could do this through written instruction is certainly possible. But as a general rule in terms of the regular sub-forum threads, I'm not sure I see the clear benefit to this alternate approach. But that's just me...
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Old 2011-09-02, 07:56   Link #5
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I don't think it matters much to be honest. If the aim of the poll is to have a discussion, then having multiselect polls is better. If the aim is to just have a straight out poll, then having radio button polls is arguably better. But favorite polls always turn into nonsensical ego contests anyway. Doesn't matter what you do. The only winning move would be to not to play - but not playing isn't fun at all so play it when you're up for it and when you're up for it, you mostly do want to make it really fun so you'd mostly want to select one character only. I do think it's kind of wussing out a bit when you create a favorite poll with multiselect but it does create a sense of "less risk" as relentlessflame pointed out. I don't think it is anywhere near enough crowd control for favorite polls though, so the point is kinda moot.
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Old 2011-09-02, 14:52   Link #6
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But you see that's my point. Because we are afraid of anything remotely volatile in nature here, what good does it do to have a poll anyways? I say just remove the poll if that's the case.

It just really doesn't serve good statistical data.

Take for example that character A is one everyone likes, but is no one's actual favorite in the series. Just a likable character, but nothing special so everyone gives that character a vote. Now everyone else other favorite characters B, C, D, etc.

Now A is the leading candidate in the poll, but isn't even the actual favorite of anyone who watched the series. Someone who comes into the thread will be like "Oh I expect A to be awesome!" Only to be disappointed later.

---

Another problem is that the discussion in such threads I feel is kind of neutered. Everyone is getting lots of votes, so it's more like a wholesome celebration of the cast rather than actually taking and dissecting why each character may or not be popular with people. We could discuss the qualities of each character who received the votes, and find out the reasons people like them, which would be a more valuable experience. Not that the opportunity to do so isn't necessarily present, but it's more of a psychological effect by nature of the poll.
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Old 2011-09-03, 02:56   Link #7
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In way I agree with the sentiment. The poll is less "favorite character" and more "character nobody hated" or "character you took notice of"; or character which everyone didn't like if you take the results backwards. A poll with a single vote would show far more which character got the best characterization or (for whatever other reason) got close to the audience.
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Old 2011-09-03, 18:21   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I feel with the multiple selection abilities for character poll threads on this forum's subforum, the polls kind of lose any and all meaning. I feel by making people choose "one" character, or at least limiting the amount it would serve as better statistical data.

Thoughts?
imo, if anything, being allowed to only choose one or two characters would ruin the polls for some people. When I watch a series and like it enough to vote in a character poll, I always have many characters whom I love and vote for. Being limited would be pretty enraging, lol. I don't see the point of being forced to make a choice and neglect some of my favs for my top favs.

And also, wouldn't limiting the amount of choices just compell people to avoid voting for the lesser liked characters?
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Old 2011-09-03, 20:53   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
But you see that's my point. Because we are afraid of anything remotely volatile in nature here, what good does it do to have a poll anyways? I say just remove the poll if that's the case.

It just really doesn't serve good statistical data.

Take for example that character A is one everyone likes, but is no one's actual favorite in the series. Just a likable character, but nothing special so everyone gives that character a vote. Now everyone else other favorite characters B, C, D, etc.

Now A is the leading candidate in the poll, but isn't even the actual favorite of anyone who watched the series. Someone who comes into the thread will be like "Oh I expect A to be awesome!" Only to be disappointed later.

---

Another problem is that the discussion in such threads I feel is kind of neutered. Everyone is getting lots of votes, so it's more like a wholesome celebration of the cast rather than actually taking and dissecting why each character may or not be popular with people. We could discuss the qualities of each character who received the votes, and find out the reasons people like them, which would be a more valuable experience. Not that the opportunity to do so isn't necessarily present, but it's more of a psychological effect by nature of the poll.
That remark about the point being moot was for the point (crowd control, basically) relentlessflame presented. I agreed with you for the most part - and where I "didn't" was at most a nod to the quasi-usefulness of the current approach at crowd control.
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Old 2011-09-03, 22:02   Link #10
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Maybe going back to the two poll option like was done in the Fate/Stay Night, Lucky Star, and K-On subforums would work better? [one choice between main/major characters and multiple between all chars like those linked for example]?
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Old 2011-09-04, 05:17   Link #11
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Well, I think being able to vote for one only would mean a bit more; you can always post about other characters you liked too...
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Old 2011-09-04, 14:49   Link #12
Akuma Kinomoto
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At the very least, we need some cap based on the amount of characters present in the show. If the choices are limited to the same amount all across the board then it prevents those preferences from becoming apparent, because the ratio of number favorites to number of characters should even itself out no matter how many or how few cast members there are.

Either that, or we need to remove the transparency of those statistics. If we don't know that user X is voting for multiple characters, we wouldn't know those results are being skewed in the first place. But on some level it's always obvious that there's inflation happening, so to prevent we should just...limit the number of choices based on the number of characters present.
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Old 2011-09-04, 17:18   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
But you see that's my point. Because we are afraid of anything remotely volatile in nature here, what good does it do to have a poll anyways? I say just remove the poll if that's the case.

It just really doesn't serve good statistical data.
That it doesn't really serve good data was kind of my point. To quote a famous line, "everything's made up and the points don't matter." To be quite honest with you, I think I'd feel the same way even if you did change the format of the poll to be one-per. It's a conversation starter; it gets people thinking about the characters they did and didn't like. Just because it doesn't "serve good statistical data" doesn't mean we need to get rid of it. And even if we change it to serve "better data", are the consequences of the change (in terms of increased hostility and competitive pressures) worth it? (I might have a brighter outlook on this if it weren't for all the times I've seen fanboy wars erupt around here.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Another problem is that the discussion in such threads I feel is kind of neutered. Everyone is getting lots of votes, so it's more like a wholesome celebration of the cast rather than actually taking and dissecting why each character may or not be popular with people. We could discuss the qualities of each character who received the votes, and find out the reasons people like them, which would be a more valuable experience. Not that the opportunity to do so isn't necessarily present, but it's more of a psychological effect by nature of the poll.
Again, I'm not sure that I can see the "problem" here. If you want to discuss the reasons why a certain character is popular or unpopular, go for it. I'm sure others will reply. If people would rather have a "wholesome celebration of the cast", I'm still failing to see the problem. Some want to engage in critical analysis of the show and its fanbase, others just want to share the things they liked about the show. I'm not convinced that changing the format of the poll will make people more analytical. As you yourself say, the opportunity is there to have such a conversation already, but someone has to lead it no matter what.

In the end, I personally have to agree with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
I don't think it is anywhere near enough crowd control for favorite polls though, so the point is kinda moot.
I don't think we have nearly enough control to really take any statistics generated seriously. So even if people started doing critical analysis of the trends on an AnimeSuki poll (even a one-per), it's basically analysing fiction based on fiction. There's nothing preventing people who didn't even watch the show from voting for whoever they wish just to help sway the votes one way or another at the request of their friends or just because they feel like it. In my mind at least, if you want to have a discussion, you're almost better off to leave the poll as is, but have people put their one favourite character in the comments along with their justification. At least that way you can do some validation of the point of view, as opposed to just "I clicked a radio button".


Maybe I'm just very jaded about stats and opinion polls in general (hence why I barely ever vote on any), and I want to be clear that these are just my own personal opinions and not anyone else's. If there's a good reason to change the general template for Character Polls, I'm not opposed... but based on what's been said so far, I'm not convinced this is a "fix for something broken", but just a different preference that has its own share of pros and cons.

I will say also that I think it's possible to do different/additional polls that serve a different purpose (as long as they're clearly different). Back when the main series of Amagami SS finished, we created a special poll that was "pick one favourite heroine" and "pick one favourite story arc". But I also want to point out that we got comments complaining that this wasn't the usual style of multiple choice character poll, so we eventually did that kind of poll as well. If there's a good case to be made for any specific show, I think it would be entertained.
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Old 2011-09-11, 02:18   Link #14
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I strongly support Reckoner on this.


What we have now is, functionally, an "approval poll", in political terms.

"Vote for each of these characters that you 'approve' of (i.e. like)"

I get the sense that many, if not most, Anime Suki posters approach "Favorite Character" polls in this fashion.


There's some value in an approval poll (primarily, it can help determine which characters fans don't like or don't care about), but I would argue that it's less valuable than a true "favorite character" poll that would show which character is the favorite of a plurality (if not an absolute majority) of voters.

Almost every show has characters that fans don't like or don't care about. The real question is "Which character of this show is the one that really wins over the fans?", imo.


I'd honestly be very curious to see what results a hard-and-fast one vote "Favorite Character" poll would have for these anime shows:

Gurren Lagann (Would Kamina be first? Would Simon? Would it actually be somebody else?)
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (Kyon vs. Yuki, I think, would be interesting here. I'd vote for Haruhi, but I know I'm in the minority, lol)
K-On!! (I'd be very interested to see this, because I'm honestly really unsure of who would win here)
Steins;Gate (It would be interesting to see if Okabe's character appeal would be enough to sway mostly male voters from voting for a moe female )
Hana-Saku Iroha (Ohana would be a presumptive favorite, but I could see some real surprises here too)


With multi-voting allowed, a lot of interesting questions pertaining to these anime shows never (or will never) get answered.
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Old 2011-09-11, 13:41   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's some value in an approval poll (primarily, it can help determine which characters fans don't like or don't care about), but I would argue that it's less valuable than a true "favorite character" poll that would show which character is the favorite of a plurality (if not an absolute majority) of voters.

Almost every show has characters that fans don't like or don't care about. The real question is "Which character of this show is the one that really wins over the fans?", imo.
Your argument kind of doesn't follow. In the current poll setup, the character who has the highest/broadest approval will gain the most votes, and thus be "the one that really wins over the fans." It's the one character that most fans can agree they liked (i.e. "most popular"). The alternate format of poll proposed is "what character of this show will the majority of voters pick if they're only allowed to choose one". That's another way of measuring popularity, but it's not actually "more legitimate".

Basically, the most popular kid in school is the one that the most people like, not the one that the most people consider their "best friend". The latter may be interesting if you want to have a competition, but the former is a more accurate gauge of popularity. And what I've tried to explain is that the current form of the poll is designed to allow popularity to be expressed without forcing unnecessary competition (because being forced to only choose one is an artificial condition/limitation).

All the examples you listed are basically "vs." competitions; would you pick A or B, and so on. Like I said before, those could possibly be allowed on a case-by-case basis (if it has special/unique value beyond just causing fanboy wars), but I'm not sure that it's a better all-around poll than our current model. It's just... different. If you really must, perhaps what you do is have the current poll, and then take the top-x most popular characters and then put them in this sort of "vs." battle. It doesn't make any sense to do this if you're going to list every character of even-mild interest (as we do now), because then the minor characters have little to no chance of receiving any sort of "grade".

Keep in mind that the proposal in this thread was to change by default all future "template" character poll threads to allow only one vote. I'm not yet convinced anyone has put forward a good argument for the global change, but I think there's a passable argument why these sorts of polls may be beneficial in some cases. (And as I said before, they have been allowed in some cases.) That isn't to say a good argument couldn't be made for the global change... it just hasn't been so far, IMO.
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Old 2011-09-11, 14:12   Link #16
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Basically, the most popular kid in school is the one that the most people like, not the one that the most people consider their "best friend". The latter may be interesting if you want to have a competition, but the former is a more accurate gauge of popularity. And what I've tried to explain is that the current form of the poll is designed to allow popularity to be expressed without forcing unnecessary competition (because being forced to only choose one is an artificial condition/limitation).
I guess you kind of said it yourself, and it's why I preferred the other style of the poll. I just feel that this inherent quality of each of the polls makes what I proposed to be more meaningful, for me personally, though I'm not sure other people agree.

However, I will make another argument for this after having given it some more thought.

The current model seems to be more of an overall character cast evaluation rather than a "favorite character" poll. By looking at the polls of each sub forum, you're able to get a general overview of which characters people considered likable and what not... Since the definition of favorite is to be preferred above all others, then you should be getting an idea of which character or characters people really did prefer above all others... But without any sort of limitation on the choices it's more of an evaluation of whether or not people simply approved of each character.

Basically what I'm trying to stay in a less convoluted manner is this: the current setup is more of a cast evaluation than a favorite character poll.

If like you said, this could be treated on a case by case basis, then that'd be fine I guess. Though as you said before, current poll is a popularity contest, and I see this as less meaningful that really determining what character they found most endearing.
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Old 2011-09-11, 22:29   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

All the examples you listed are basically "vs." competitions; would you pick A or B, and so on. Like I said before, those could possibly be allowed on a case-by-case basis (if it has special/unique value beyond just causing fanboy wars), but I'm not sure that it's a better all-around poll than our current model. It's just... different. If you really must, perhaps what you do is have the current poll, and then take the top-x most popular characters and then put them in this sort of "vs." battle. It doesn't make any sense to do this if you're going to list every character of even-mild interest (as we do now), because then the minor characters have little to no chance of receiving any sort of "grade".

Keep in mind that the proposal in this thread was to change by default all future "template" character poll threads to allow only one vote. I'm not yet convinced anyone has put forward a good argument for the global change, but I think there's a passable argument why these sorts of polls may be beneficial in some cases. (And as I said before, they have been allowed in some cases.) That isn't to say a good argument couldn't be made for the global change... it just hasn't been so far, IMO.
I can't speak for Reckoner, of course, but I think that this is a fair counter-proposal/compromise that you're raising here.

I don't see much point in us quibbling over what type of poll really constitutes "most popular character", or "best friend character", or what have you, just that what we have right now has some value at least (we both agree here, we just may disagree on what the exact nature of that value is), and that what Reck has suggested has some value too (I get the impression that we all agree on that).

So maybe having both is for the best, yes. So, maybe we should take the characters who who get one of the top 4 or 5 percentages in the multi-vote "Favorite Character" polls, and put them up against each other in one vote only, ISML-style "Best Friend" polls (or whatever terminology you think would be best, I'm not going to be a stickler for semantics here). In certain cases, anyway.


I stand by the five anime I've already listed - Care to say how many and which of the five you'd agree with me on?
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Old 2011-09-12, 15:47   Link #18
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I stand by the five anime I've already listed - Care to say how many and which of the five you'd agree with me on?
What you should do is formalize the one(s) you wish to propose, and float it/them in each sub-forum's respective "Request for New Threads" thread. The requests will be considered on a case-by-case basis by the staff who review that thread, and they will make their own determination on whether they believe such a thread will be a useful addition to the sub-forum.

As I mentioned before, threads that appear to serve little purpose other than to attract/encourage/solicit fanboy wars (or initiate SaiMoe-style "campaigns" to support certain characters) are not likely to be approved, so it would be best to phrase any thread/poll requests in such a way that takes this into consideration.
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