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Old 2012-06-16, 17:56   Link #1
Archon_Wing
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"We'll do it better on bluray"

There's been quite a trend in recent anime in which extra content isn't displayed til the blurays. Now, this in itself is a good thing-- extras encourage people to buy things. It gives people something to look forward for. Sometimes censorship restrictions make it too hard for some anime that want to show more explicit content to work with. Nobody wants just steam, for example. It satisfies both censors and customers to some degree.

So, let's not discuss the business side of things. It is a very beneficial thing that may cause people to appreciate the ongoing work into a piece of art. It happens in every form of media. Watching deleted scenes, or alternate scenes gives more insight at times.

However, I feel there are times that there are some anime that feel very rushed or incomplete to the point where the bluray needs to fill in the gaps. The bluray extras are no longer a novelty as much they are to fill in things that should have been there in the first place. The biggest offender in my mind is Bakemonogatari which if I had watched as aired; I might just have forgotten about it completely with how it concluded.

So that made me think: If I watched an anime that felt really incomplete at the end, but the blurays made it an entirely different story, would I judge the thing by what I saw or what the "finished product" is? After all, anime is an advertisement for the final product-- so it might be said that one could have some patience to see what was originally intended. But at the same time, it breaks the flow since the experience of viewing something in its entirety for its first time can't be replaced.

My question to you is: How does this affect your enjoyment of a series if at all if say an anime feels a bit incomplete but the bluray promises to fix it?
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Old 2012-06-16, 18:04   Link #2
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Well, most of the time I don't read the original content to know if it was cut(Berserker Vs. Saber from Fate/Zero). When I find out later though it annoys me.

Plus,sometimes it is censored on the aired version(9th's hand from Mirai Nikki), but then show on the Blu-Ray. Which annoys me also.

I'd judge it off the Blu-Ray/full version personally.
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Old 2012-06-16, 18:23   Link #3
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Well, chances are that not everybody who watched the original airing is going to be getting the Blu-Rays.

For those of us who don't, we have nothing but the original airing to go on. If somebody doesn't intend to buy the Blu-Rays, how can you fault him or her for evaluating the anime based on what was in the original airing? That's all s/he has to 'work with', as it were.


Now, if I'm reviewing an anime that I intend to get the Blu-Rays/DVDs for, and I have good reason to suspect that the Blu-Rays/DVDs will improve my assessment of the anime, my approach would be:

1) Episodic reviews/scores based on the original airing.

2) Overall review based on the Blu-Rays.


My view is that people tend to grade/review episodes before seeing the full finished narrative anyway. It's typically a response to your first time watching an episode of an anime you're following.

But Overall Reviews would naturally include everything, so yeah, there it might be wise to wait for the finished product IF you intend to buy it, imo.


Also, while I'm fine with bonus extras being on the DVD/Blu-Ray, I do think it's bad form for key elements of an anime's overarching narrative (if there is one) to be left out of the original airing.


Not to pick on Fate/Zero, but since I suspect Fate/Zero's latest episode helped inspire this thread, I'll use it for an example of what I mean here:

Spoiler for MAJOR Fate/Zero spoilers. Involves 2nd last episode.:
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Old 2012-06-16, 19:25   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Sometimes censorship restrictions make it too hard for some anime that want to show more explicit content to work with. Nobody wants just steam, for example.

So, let's not discuss the business side of things.
Actually, I'll defy you and talk about it anyway, since you said something that may not be completely correct.

I'm sure that there are censorship restrictions, but in the vast majority of recent cases, television anime is not censored because it is "too hot for TV".

I was personally surprised to a teenage female character's bare behind shown without censorship in the TV airing of Star Driver, which is a late afternoon anime. At the time, I was used to seeing late-night anime censor things as harmless as panty shots.

Then I realized that these anime, airing late at night, are perfectly capable of showing lots of nudity, but the distributors deliberately hold back and censor it themselves (with steam, for example, but sometimes things like animals are used instead) to entice viewers to buy the BD. This doesn't normally happen with non-"fanservice anime" like Star Driver because the main appeal isn't the fanservice and nudity.

Of course, this becomes a big problem when the main appeal behind your anime is the fanservice and there's not much else to entertain with, like with Softenni. When that happens, the censorship kills the entire point behind the TV broadcast and and becomes a disservice and insult to the TV watchers rather than just a hook to buy the BD. This is why I rarely watch fanservice-oriented anime while they air nowadays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
However, I feel there are times that there are some anime that feel very rushed or incomplete to the point where the bluray needs to fill in the gaps. The bluray extras are no longer a novelty as much they are to fill in things that should have been there in the first place. The biggest offender in my mind is Bakemonogatari which if I had watched as aired; I might just have forgotten about it completely with how it concluded.
As someone who unwittingly watched Bakemonogatari while it aired, I'll admit that Shaft really messed up on it. I'm glad that Madoka Magica didn't suffer a similar fate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
So that made me think: If I watched an anime that felt really incomplete at the end, but the blurays made it an entirely different story, would I judge the thing by what I saw or what the "finished product" is? After all, anime is an advertisement for the final product-- so it might be said that one could have some patience to see what was originally intended. But at the same time, it breaks the flow since the experience of viewing something in its entirety for its first time can't be replaced.
I usually judge an anime by whichever format I last viewed it in. Rating things is subjective, so the type of experience should count in your enjoyment of an anime. Not to mention, we almost always watch older anime through their DVD or BD versions, so we have no idea how much they have improved over the TV broadcasts. We have no choice but to judge older anime by the final product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
My question to you is: How does this affect your enjoyment of a series if at all if say an anime feels a bit incomplete but the bluray promises to fix it?
It mostly depends on how much it affects the flow of the story.

If there are only two or so moments in a TV broadcast where some nudity or violence is obviously censored, then I might let it slide. But if the "story" beyond an anime is basically "Bob has to deal with boobs and butt in his face all day erry day", or "Alice is a serial killer who kills little girls and puppies for fun", then of course a lot of censorship will hurt my enjoyment, and probably will encourage me to drop the anime until the BD comes along.

Animation isn't too much of an issue unless it's really bad or lacking (as in Bakemonogatari's case).
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Old 2012-06-16, 19:31   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Actually, I'll defy you and talk about it anyway, since you said something that may not be completely correct.

I'm sure that there are censorship restrictions, but in the vast majority of recent cases, television anime is not censored because it is "too hot for TV".

I was personally surprised to a teenage female character's bare behind shown without censorship in the TV airing of Star Driver, which is a late afternoon anime. At the time, I was used to seeing late-night anime censor things as harmless as panty shots.

Then I realized that these anime, airing late at night, are perfectly capable of showing lots of nudity, but the distributors deliberately hold back and censor it themselves (with steam, for example, but sometimes things like animals are used instead) to entice viewers to buy the BD. This doesn't normally happen with non-"fanservice anime" like Star Driver because the main appeal isn't the fanservice and nudity.

Of course, this becomes a big problem when the main appeal behind your anime is the fanservice and there's not much else to entertain with, like with Softenni. When that happens, the censorship kills the entire point behind the TV broadcast and and becomes a disservice and insult to the TV watchers rather than just a hook to buy the BD. This is why I rarely watch fanservice-oriented anime while they air nowadays.
I completely agree. It's incredibly self-defeating, imo.

Even if TV anime is just a glorified infomercial, you still have to give people a reason to watch the infomercial itself...
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Old 2012-06-16, 19:34   Link #6
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Well, basically, I appreciate it when anime makers try their hardest to present everything they got on the original airing first, only to be cut by censorship or duration limit. Only after that, it’s justifiable to put some extra that is essential part of the story on Blu.

But I really really don’t like it when anime makers deliberately cut important stuff from the aired version in the beginning only to attract Blu buyers. Aesthetically, they kinda ruin the first viewing experience by doing that.

But as we know, everything profitable is good in business world. So yeah, money talks.
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Old 2012-06-16, 20:35   Link #7
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Well take a Hollywood example. The Lord of the Rings.

Each film had I think at least half an hour added to it for the DVDs. And the films make more sense with those sceness. But he films held up in the theater just fine.

The movies were just too long for theater viewing.
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Old 2012-06-16, 20:40   Link #8
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It's probably the studios getting lazy or more greedy.
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Old 2012-06-16, 21:12   Link #9
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well take a Hollywood example. The Lord of the Rings.

Each film had I think at least half an hour added to it for the DVDs. And the films make more sense with those sceness. But he films held up in the theater just fine.

The movies were just too long for theater viewing.
Well, at least Peter Jackson did want to present everything to the audience first , only to find it too long and it would be cinema hell if he force it. Thus, his "theatrical cut" is justifiable since Jackson made that version the best he can with the duration limit he must cope with.

Like I said before, I really appreciate it when movie/anime makers want to present the best of their product first, and not deliberately going “save the best for the Blu”.
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Old 2012-06-16, 21:28   Link #10
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In the case of Fate Zero you only have to spend like $600 to get the extended material. What a deal.

Anyways a series should stand on its own without the extended material. I think if there is extra material it should be something special for the fans, not something that is integral to the plot.
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Old 2012-06-16, 21:35   Link #11
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Hopefully, the Fate/Zero Blu-Rays have more dynamic animation. That'll encourage me to get it.
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Old 2012-06-17, 00:54   Link #12
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The BD is the complete product in its final version, so it is what should be used to evaluate a work of art's merits in the long run. That's how it's always been even outside the anime industry. Just look at films like Blade Runner, whose premier in the theaters was followed by a Director's Cut version in DVD which has gone on to become the definite canon of the work. With anime it should be no different.

Now that's not to say I don't feel cheated and pissed off when I watch the TV airing of something that clearly feels incomplete, but yeah. Ultimately those feelings are temporary and a few months from now until the end of my life I won't give a crap about the initial version of Fate/Zero's episode 24 anymore, since I'll always be able to watch and enjoy the complete product from that point on.

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In the case of Fate Zero you only have to spend like $600 to get the extended material. What a deal.
That makes it sound like $600 is the price for the extended material only, like it is for DLC in videogames. You're paying $600 for the series itself in BD for you to rewatch over and over whenever you feel like it plus the extended material (which also includes bonuses beyond the extra footage).

Mind you, it's still ridiculously overpriced, but that's how things roll in Japan.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:28   Link #13
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I don't know how close to air date today's production companies get, but in the 70s there were anime that literally delivered their reels 12 hours before the show was to air...complete or not. Almost every week.

Some would manage to fix some of the errors or at least better complete scenes if the show was shown in a repeat or for the video release (once that technology became viable). But some errors were never fixed.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:36   Link #14
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The classic example of this are several efforts around Shinbo productions -- where much of the episode is reduced to a sequence of stills due to problems in production.
1) Moon Phase and its entire fight scenes animated as a still drawing of a fireplace or window while you heard all the action (later corrected in the DVD)
2) The -gatari chain of series where there were even stills that *said* so-sorry-there-will-be-animation-here-ran-out-of-time.

No matter what the cause (unrealistic production scheduling, inept management, bad communication, task screw ups) or whether it was a creative attempt to patch the situation - it comes across poorly from a professional perspective. OTOH -- I suppose one could argue it gives that "happening live edge of disaster" feeling a live performance has
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Old 2012-06-17, 06:04   Link #15
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
That makes it sound like $600 is the price for the extended material only, like it is for DLC in videogames. You're paying $600 for the series itself in BD for you to rewatch over and over whenever you feel like it plus the extended material (which also includes bonuses beyond the extra footage).

Mind you, it's still ridiculously overpriced, but that's how things roll in Japan.
But you still need to spend over $600 to get the full story. I get the price isn't just for the extended material but the only people who get to see that full story are those who can afford it and that's a bit ridiculous, especially if you are saying we can't judge a full work until we see an extended version.

I mean I can understand the extended version having more intense action & extra scenes fans will appreciate but it should not have stuff integral to understanding the plot. If that's the case then I would say the editing job on the series was done poorly.
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Old 2012-06-17, 06:07   Link #16
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600$ is just.... insane for me. I just hope that euro publishers realize this and don't pull that shit on the fans. Especially when considering the current economic and social turmoil that the euro zone is experiencing right now.

Yes, I WOULD buy a BR release but not at that price.
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Old 2012-06-17, 06:09   Link #17
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Whenever I start to watch a new anime, it gets affected by the censorship (inappropriate content) and/or by duration limits (like having animators not getting any time to fix minor things), but the Blu-Ray/DVD discs fix them to remove censorship and gets better animation.
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Old 2012-06-17, 06:20   Link #18
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Technical production teams exist for the reason that the TV shown product is the finished product (anything less is simply slap-dash and amateurish), however If there is a scene that had to be cut from broadcast due to time constraints (say the programme makers could not buy the five extra minutes from the TV station to fit it in) then and only then would it reach acceptability in my eyes. Even the fanservice censoring should not be used as a 'crutch' for the networks and by extension the studios, that broadcast the shows at such an ungodly hour as to preclude the chance of minors watching anyway.
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Old 2012-06-17, 06:26   Link #19
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
But you still need to spend over $600 to get the full story. I get the price isn't just for the extended material but the only people who get to see that full story are those who can afford it and that's a bit ridiculous, especially if you are saying we can't judge a full work until we see an extended version.

I mean I can understand the extended version having more intense action & extra scenes fans will appreciate but it should not have stuff integral to understanding the plot. If that's the case then I would say the editing job on the series was done poorly.
Oh yes, absolutely. With or without the ridiculous price, the editing and planning for the series was undeniably poor in that regard.

I simply won't care in the long run, because I plan to get my hands on the BDs (of course, this is all assuming they'll fix the mistakes in those), but I can understand how people who won't might keep holding those faults against the series. Ideally I would prefer it if everyone could judge the work based on the final version, but in the case of something like this that's obviously and unfortunately not a feasible possibility.
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Old 2012-06-17, 06:47   Link #20
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
My question to you is: How does this affect your enjoyment of a series if at all if say an anime feels a bit incomplete but the bluray promises to fix it?
I'm a very simple person in that regard.

I seldom watch episodes twice, unless it they are particularly enjoyable. As such, I judge episodes solely based on what I'm given. If a bluray promises to fix any imperfections, then it's all good, but it probably won't affect my perception of the episodes I've already seen. Either way, it still has to be somewhat enticing to motivate consumers to actually buy the blurays.

What can else I say? At the end of the day, it's all business.
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