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Old 2011-09-22, 15:26   Link #181
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by LostSome View Post
So, we should know everything from the start ?
Isis just got some background...
Well, not everything, but at least something.

It could probably drawed more simpathy to the Hucks if their backstories or at least a good glimpse at their lives and motives was made earlier. That was the saving grace for the Wolkenritter to most of the fanbase. We only spent like three weeks before starting to notice why they aren't that bad. The Hucks apparently are on the verge of receive their characterization ....after near two freakin years! By this point various readers already taken them for irredeemable monsters and others just abandoned the story altogheter. I guess the people more emphatic with that kind of characters will be the ones who will accept their excuses even after all they done for two years.
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:34   Link #182
LostSome
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Well, not everything, but at least something.

It could probably drawed more simpathy to the Hucks if their backstories or at least a good glimpse at their lives and motives was made earlier. That was the saving grace for the Wolkenritter to most of the fanbase. We only spent like three weeks before starting to notice why they aren't that bad. The Hucks apparently are on the verge of receive their characterization ....after near two freakin years! By this point various readers already taken them for irredeemable monsters and others just abandoned the story altogheter. I guess the people more emphatic with that kind of characters will be the ones who will accept their excuses even after all they done for two years.
Are you talking about Veyron`s flashback in chapter 19 ?
I don`t know what it says unfortunately...
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:39   Link #183
Enternal
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Well, not everything, but at least something.

It could probably drawed more simpathy to the Hucks if their backstories or at least a good glimpse at their lives and motives was made earlier. That was the saving grace for the Wolkenritter to most of the fanbase. We only spent like three weeks before starting to notice why they aren't that bad. The Hucks apparently are on the verge of receive their characterization ....after near two freakin years! By this point various readers already taken them for irredeemable monsters and others just abandoned the story altogheter. I guess the people more emphatic with that kind of characters will be the ones who will accept their excuses even after all they done for two years.
Can't really blame the time considering the release schedule of each chapter. But time will tell how the others will deal with Curren. She is definitely stronger than the other Eclipse (well she is their leader) and since she's able to be their leader for a very long time, I'm sure she have a competent head as well. Of course that doesn't mean our main heroes won't be able to deal with her yet. For now I could say that she has much much more experiences than any of the current member of Seciton Six besides the the Wolkenritters. Compared to her, Section Six is still a kid.
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:41   Link #184
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For now I could say that she has much much more experiences than any of the current member of Seciton Six besides the the Wolkenritters. Compared to her, Section Six is still a kid.
Ironically, Curren and her henchmen have taken down mostly Wolkenritters xD
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:53   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And none of the obvious weaknesses the brains and brawn in this case had. That's not really balance.
What is this, an RPG? Does she need a big shining arrow saying "obvious weakness here!"? What, is it impossible for the weak points of a villain to be found as the story progresses these days? Or for characters to grow beyond the villains strengths?

Yes, right now the odds are stacked against the heroines. That's the entire bloody point of creating antagonists in the first place.

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I'm not satisfied with villains that appear out of thin air. I want antagonists that were born or created somehow. REAL people need real origins.

If these Huckebein were all modern mages or non-mages who got infected, what planet did they come from? Was it an Administered World, or not?

How did they find each other? Who taught them how to fight?

DO they know how to fight, or are their abilties largely instinctual and reflexive, so that they can get by on sheer brute power?
Ahh, so you meant background. My mistake. Well, we're going to need some more Hucklebein expositioning before we can find that one out though.

Though I don't see any reason for Curren to have some sort of special origin to be competent. She could just be competent, and use that competence to live her life as an infected.

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As for Starlight Breaker not being suited for personal combat, I'll note that Nanoha and Fate RAN the moment she started casting it, and they ran FAR. If Reinforce could keep using it, she could have kept them at bay at a distance, where they didn't have a hope of defeating her, and then just hammer them with impunity until they're dead.

So why didn't she? Heck, even Diabolic Emission should have been available, or Ragnarok Breaker, if Starlight Breaker really DID get burned out of her pages.
Lolplot. Despite people claiming otherwise, A's was hardly without plotholes.

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I'd gripe about how using Absorption on Fate doesn't really make sense, but this isn't the thread for it.
Magic!

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
It could probably drawed more simpathy to the Hucks if their backstories or at least a good glimpse at their lives and motives was made earlier. That was the saving grace for the Wolkenritter to most of the fanbase. We only spent like three weeks before starting to notice why they aren't that bad. The Hucks apparently are on the verge of receive their characterization ....after near two freakin years! By this point various readers already taken them for irredeemable monsters and others just abandoned the story altogheter. I guess the people more emphatic with that kind of characters will be the ones who will accept their excuses even after all they done for two years.
You compare a 12 episode weekly anime series to a monthly manga with an unknown length. Big difference. Not only is there a difference between the length of an anime episode and a chapter of a manga (the entire fight from chapter 9 to chapter 14 could have fit in one or two episodes) anime length means plot gets crunched together, and the difference between weekly and monthly means that the 19 chapters are more like 19 weeks (monthly release is a pain in the rear like that).
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:55   Link #186
Enternal
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Ironically, Curren and her henchmen have taken down mostly Wolkenritters xD
Hahah true but what I meant was not experiences in battling but on how to deal with people, politics, those types of stuff. Not saying that Section Six is bad but that they never had to continuous evade law enforcements for a long period of time while protecting all of their members. So in a way, Curren knows exactly how to keep the cat mouse game going while preventing an all out war with TSAB fully going after them.
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:55   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Ironically, Curren and her henchmen have taken down mostly Wolkenritters xD
Thoma took down everyone in one "emo" burst.

I don`t think the Wolkenritters have much experience in leadership and command...
They are soldiers more than commanders.
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Old 2011-09-22, 15:57   Link #188
Enternal
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You compare a 12 episode weekly anime series to a monthly manga with an unknown length. Big difference. Not only is there a difference between the length of an anime episode and a chapter of a manga (the entire fight from chapter 9 to chapter 14 could have fit in one or two episodes) anime length means plot gets crunched together, and the difference between weekly and monthly means that the 19 chapters are more like 19 weeks (monthly release is a pain in the rear like that).
Wow, you did a much better job of explaining what I was trying to say before. That is exactly an advantage that anime have over manga. Well at least if we're not talking about series such as Bleach when it seems they really want to piss the hell out of you with around 20 pages of... barely nothing.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:01   Link #189
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You compare a 12 episode weekly anime series to a monthly manga with an unknown length. Big difference. Not only is there a difference between the length of an anime episode and a chapter of a manga (the entire fight from chapter 9 to chapter 14 could have fit in one or two episodes) anime length means plot gets crunched together, and the difference between weekly and monthly means that the 19 chapters are more like 19 weeks (monthly release is a pain in the rear like that).
Hardly a good excuse now, it worked as of Ch. 7 because it was just the start but 19 chapters are more than enough for some stories to flesh out their characters, the story is needlessly streched by unknown reasons. By this point i already now Sanosuke's motivations or Yahiko's reason to fight, gosh i think that by this point Kurogasa was already defeated and the Battousai subplot already taken flight. There are some serious structure problems with the fleshing of the Huckebein characters, but, as i said, Ch. 19 apparently begun the process of characterization fopr these guys.

If they're supossed to be the new main characters of the franchise(alongside the Thoma trio) at least i want to know more about them.

This is more or less like the Saiyan or Cell saga, any non-saiyan, save for few exceptions, will be utterly useless in battles after this point.

And by Saiyan i mean Eclipse, and by exceptions i mean Isis, Subaru, Nanoha and Fate.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:04   Link #190
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Lolplot. Despite people claiming otherwise, A's was hardly without plotholes.

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Absorption
Magic!
No, not HOW it worked. WHY Reinforce did it didn't make sense.

It's another of those plotholes you just mentioned.


I also never hear people claim that A's was perfect, just that it was the best of the three seasons.

It really is, and still is.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:08   Link #191
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Don't count chapter numbers as a choice to where it's a good idea to start breaking into backgrounds, that's something better determined by where the plot is. And indeed, after the fight such an opportunity came, and immediately we got the tip of the iceberg called the Icis Enigma, and the following chapters started digging into the Hucks.

Also, tiny detail but lets not forget that the majority of the background of the Wolkies was delegated to sound stage material. StrikerS sound stage material. We only got our first visual glimpse in Vivid. I don't expect many flashbacks in Force if they follow that particular pattern. Personality and motivations, yes. Flashbacks? Not so much.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:12   Link #192
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Hardly a good excuse now, it worked as of Ch. 7 because it was just the start but 19 chapters are more than enough for some stories to flesh out their characters, the story is needlessly streched by unknown reasons.
I haven't been following the series too well.

How much page space has the manga devoted to scenes of Lily and Isis being naked, compared to revealing details about the Huckebein?
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:13   Link #193
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Hardly a good excuse now, it worked as of Ch. 7 because it was just the start but 19 chapters are more than enough for some stories to flesh out their characters, the story is needlessly streched by unknown reasons. By this point i already now Sanosuke's motivations or Yahiko's reason to fight, gosh i think that by this point Kurogasa was already defeated and the Battousai subplot already taken flight. There are some serious structure problems with the fleshing of the Huckebein characters, but, as i said, Ch. 19 apparently begun the process of characterization fopr these guys.

If they're supossed to be the new main characters of the franchise(alongside the Thoma trio) at least i want to know more about them.

This is more or less like the Saiyan or Cell saga, any non-saiyan, save for few exceptions, will be utterly useless in battles after this point.

And by Saiyan i mean Eclipse, and by exceptions i mean Isis, Subaru, Nanoha and Fate.
It's not an excuse actually. If you notice, Nanoha Force is not even a monthly release. We have to wait a long time for each chapter release "after 2 years" is not really a valid argument.

"19 chapters are more than enough for some stories to flesh out their characters". Not every stories is like and must follow that. Tsuzuki probabl have his own plans for the pacing of the Huck's development.

Even in Vivid, the development is slow but it's there. We slowly and surely get to know more about each character besides the main cast.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:14   Link #194
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I haven't been following the series too well.

How much page space has the manga devoted to scenes of Lily and Isis being naked, compared to revealing details about the Huckebein?
Hmm... not that many. In fact, I barely remember any besides the recent translated chapter, the chapter where Thoma first met Lily, and when they were captured by the Hucks.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:15   Link #195
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Also, tiny detail but lets not forget that the majority of the background of the Wolkies was delegated to sound stage material.
Irrelevant. The TV episodes revealed enough to let us know where they came from and WHY they were doing what they were doing.

Both of these crucial details are complete ciphers as far the Huckebein are concerned.


Also, why are there so many Huckebein? There are so many that few of them have actually done anything in the past two years / 19 chapters. Wouldn't a smaller cast have worked just as well?

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Hmm... not that many. In fact, I barely remember any besides the recent translated chapter, the chapter where Thoma first met Lily, and when they were captured by the Hucks.
But it was still considered more important, as we've seen the one but not the other.

Heck, Lily being naked was considered so important that they had to introduce a brand new main character just to fix that situation. And provide another girl to strip naked.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-09-22 at 23:34.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:18   Link #196
Akiyoshi
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Also, tiny detail but lets not forget that the majority of the background of the Wolkies was delegated to sound stage material. StrikerS sound stage material. We only got our first visual glimpse in Vivid. I don't expect many flashbacks in Force if they follow that particular pattern. Personality and motivations, yes. Flashbacks? Not so much.
And still the anime found time to flesh out the Wolkenritter very well, even dedicated an entire flashback chapter, their motivations and feelings towards Hayate remained an important plot point during all the season. I've fallen in love with the Wolks long before knowing about the existence of the Sound Stages.

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How much page space has the manga devoted to scenes of Lily and Isis being naked, compared to revealing details about the Huckebein?
To be honest, the amount of fanservice in Force has been very modest. The sretchiness on the plot comes mostly from overly drawn basic moves from the characters, bad pacing in most battles and the fact that they spent two years showing just one aspect of the Hucks again and again: that they're ruthless jerks. We already know that, move on!
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:20   Link #197
Keroko
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I haven't been following the series too well.

How much page space has the manga devoted to scenes of Lily and Isis being naked, compared to revealing details about the Huckebein?
Rough count? After chapter 10 the number of naked Isis/Lily pages has been roughly... 1. And that one was Lily's transformation.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:20   Link #198
Enternal
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But it was still considered more important, as we've seen the one but not the other.

Heck, Lily being naked was considered so important that they had to introduce a brand main character just to fix that situation. And provide another girl to strip naked.
...

"I haven't been following the series too well."

Perhaps it's time for you to follow the series then judge how much service is provided. Like Akiyoshi had said, it's pretty modest.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:24   Link #199
Akiyoshi
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It's not an excuse actually. If you notice, Nanoha Force is not even a monthly release. We have to wait a long time for each chapter release "after 2 years" is not really a valid argument.
It IS a monthly release xDU. And if Tsuzuki is ok with overstreching the story in the same freakin battle for over a year then he clearly isn't aiming to appeal to a wide margin of readers, just to the ones loyal enough to withstand it ...or the ones too obsessed over his flaws to stop reading(yeah xD).

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"19 chapters are more than enough for some stories to flesh out their characters". Not every stories is like and must follow that. Tsuzuki probably have his own plans for the pacing of the Huck's development.
Do you have an example of a good excution of this? Cause i really like to know if there is one out there.

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Even in Vivid, the development is slow but it's there. We slowly and surely get to know more about each character besides the main cast.
And still ViVid feels better executed than Force characterization wise.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:25   Link #200
Enternal
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And still the anime found time to flesh out the Wolkenritter very well, even dedicated an entire flashback chapter, their motivations and feelings towards Hayate remained an important plot point during all the season. I've fallen in love with the Wolks long before knowing about the existence of the Sound Stages.
You're still comparing an anime to a manga and that won't work well.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
To be honest, the amount of fanservice in Force has been very modest. The sretchiness on the plot comes mostly from overly drawn basic moves from the characters, bad pacing in most battles and the fact that they spent two years showing just one aspect of the Hucks again and again: that they're ruthless jerks. We already know that, move on!
Perhaps we don't know how ruthless yet. There's many level of ruthlessness haha. Joking asides, I just reread the entire manga so far and I think you should do the same. It would feel different than when you read per chapter when it gets released. If you do that, the pacing does not seem as bad. Makes me think that it would be more beneficial is this series is released in a shorter time frame than the current time frame now.
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