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Old 2011-09-18, 13:37   Link #81
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
She detected "something" approaching, not Deville dissapearing.
Chapter 12.5, Page 10 -- Nanoha and Raising Heart notice that Arnage and Deville have take out Isis and are rushing towards her.

Page 11 -- Raising Heart clearly says, "Emergency! The reaction of axeman disappeared!"


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Nightcrawler laughs at this argument.
Nightcrawler is not a part of the Nanohaverse and therefore uses different rules.


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Intant teleportation do exist
Name one.

Yuuno instantly executes a forced teleport on himself and Arf, but we don't know exactly how far they jumped or how much of a delay they experienced.

Forced teleporting the Defense Program's Linker Core took a bit longer to execute, not to mention three people working on it together. By the time the Core arrived in orbit, it had already generated a new body.

Consider how long it took to generate the FIRST body.


Quote:
and we didn't even know how Deville's works, we don't see him make any preparation
We don't see him teleport at all. We just see him arrive. We have no idea what kind of preparation it takes.

Given that the only two times he's teleported have started off-screen and unobserved, no one can make a definitive statement about how difficult his fast jumps are to start up.

If it takes some time, his tactics make sense. Even if it doesn't take time, his tactics still make sense against Isis and Nanoha.

His fight with Fate should have told us whether or not he could start a short-jump in the middle of a fight, but our observation of that fight is interrupted twice and we can't tell if anything actually happens between interruptions.

Conclusions based on that fight are thus only speculative.

Nevertheless, I'm also basing my speculation on the exchanges between him and Fate before Nanoha left them, and those facts seem to confirm my assumptions about their duel.


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Not necessarily, an instant teleporter can arrange his own pattern in order to confuse the opponent
What are you basing this on? And what do you even mean by "pattern"?

Are you still talking about Nightcrawler?


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we yet need to confirm what kind of use his short jump can have. Teleport can be used offensively.
But we need to confirm more about it before we know if it can be used for any kind of offense BESIDES ambushing a stationary, unsuspecting opponent.

Using teleportation to attack an alert target who knows to keep moving, and whom can move very quickly, is an entirely different situation.

I think if Deville had any confidence that he could do that against Fate, he would have tried it at least once before resorting to his Reaction. But we know for a fact that he didn't try that even once.


Quote:
I remind you that Nanoha was utterly secrewed by Fate's speed the first two times, it was only when she cashed on her defensive power
You mean, Nanoha was able to react fast enough to defend herself against Fate's strikes, despite Fate's speed. Which only proves my point; alert opponents who are aware of Fate's speed can defend themselves from her rushing and flanking melee attacks.

Deville reacted better than Nanoha because he's a melee fighter.


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...Absorb Grip xD!
Broken shins!

Between her wheel's grip on the ground, or her joints and bones as her body goes hurtling forward past her feet, SOMETHING has to break first.

Wheels off the ground or body folded over her own legs... either way, Subaru's going for a painful tumble. It's actually better for her if the wheels let go first.

It's probably a moot point though, as she probably wouldn't be going THAT fast. Still, the point remains that Magical Flight makes for better breaks than rollerblades.
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Old 2011-09-18, 13:57   Link #82
DezoPenguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Yuuno instantly executes a forced teleport on himself and Arf, but we don't know exactly how far they jumped or how much of a delay they experienced.

Forced teleporting the Defense Program's Linker Core took a bit longer to execute, not to mention three people working on it together. By the time the Core arrived in orbit, it had already generated a new body.

Consider how long it took to generate the FIRST body.
A tad OT, but seeing these two things in conjunction answers one of the big questions I always had about S1 ep. 5, namely, "Why didn't Arf just teleport back after Yuuno teleported her away?" Forced teleports, at least, as A's shows by your example, take some measure of real time to go from point A to point B.
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Old 2011-09-18, 14:04   Link #83
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I think the reason why Arf didn't teleport back to aid Fate was because she really wanted to eat Yuuno after falling for that trap.
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Old 2011-09-18, 14:12   Link #84
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Chapter 12.5, Page 10 -- Nanoha and Raising Heart notice that Arnage and Deville have take out Isis and are rushing towards her.

Page 11 -- Raising Heart clearly says, "Emergency! The reaction of axeman disappeared!"
I admit defet on this xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Nightcrawler is not a part of the Nanohaverse and therefore uses different rules.
But is the closest example i find for seemingly instant, NON-magical teleportation.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Name one.
Deville of Huckebein xD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Yuuno instantly executes a forced teleport on himself and Arf, but we don't know exactly how far they jumped or how much of a delay they experienced.

Forced teleporting the Defense Program's Linker Core took a bit longer to execute, not to mention three people working on it together. By the time the Core arrived in orbit, it had already generated a new body.

Consider how long it took to generate the FIRST body.
Magical Teleportation/Dimensional transfer, Deville doesn't belong to that category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
We don't see him teleport at all. We just see him arrive. We have no idea what kind of preparation it takes.

Given that the only two times he's teleported have started off-screen and unobserved, no one can make a definitive statement about how difficult his fast jumps are to start up.
We see, tough, teleporting from Arnage's possition to Nanoha's in what appears to be a really short amount of time. enough to pull an Oh Carp face from the White Devil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
His fight with Fate should have told us whether or not he could start a short-jump in the middle of a fight, but our observation of that fight is interrupted twice and we can't tell if anything actually happens between interruptions.

Conclusions based on that fight are thus only speculative.
Agreed it's hard to conclude the true nature of Deville's instant teleport abilities, make a solid statement based on this isn't plausible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Nevertheless, I'm also basing my speculation on the exchanges between him and Fate before Nanoha left them, and those facts seem to confirm my assumptions about their duel.
Said exchanges are very ambiguous about what's happening(another disadvantage of a non-animated format), so we must be patient, i can buy your assumptions because we didn't see really anything elaborated enough to call it "proof".

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
What are you basing this on? And what do you even mean by "pattern"?

Are you still talking about Nightcrawler?
Yep, instant teleporters can try to catch their opponents off guard by selecting carefully the moment to change positions, if they can't follow the movement speed of their opponent they can force their opponents into following them, even if their pattern of teleport is somewhat predictable they can use said predictableness to bait their opponents for a surprise counter-attack. Of course, results are relative to the teleporter and speedster's skills and strategies.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But we need to confirm more about it before we know if it can be used for any kind of offense BESIDES ambushing a stationary, unsuspecting opponent.
Yeah, we also need more time to receive more information that tell us it can't be used in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Using teleportation to attack an alert target who knows to keep moving, and whom can move very quickly, is an entirely different situation.
Not impossible to pull off, tough.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I think if Deville had any confidence that he could do that against Fate, he would have tried it at least once before resorting to his Reaction. But we know for a fact that he didn't try that even once.
Meybe he has more confidence in his reaction? Maybe she's planning on combining both? we didn't know because we didn't seen what happened xDU.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
You mean, Nanoha was able to react fast enough to defend herself against Fate's strikes, despite Fate's speed. Which only proves my point; alert opponents who are aware of Fate's speed can defend themselves from her rushing and flanking melee attacks.

Deville reacted better than Nanoha because he's a melee fighter.
Not exactly, Nanoha was able to somewhat hinder Fate's speed by spamming her with magical bullets and beams, it's a way of redirecting her opponent's movements, she also have the advantage of being in a duel and not a pursuit because in a duel Fate is obligued to be focused on her(different method but similar goal as the case of teleporter VS. speedster strategy). Fate does reach Nanoha's blind spots a couple of times but she was saved by Raising Heart's auto-guard which have much faster reaction time than Nanoha's councsious shielding.

Probably Deville have better knowledge of how to predict meele attacks and react to them, as Signum he must have really good timing to catch Fate's hits, still Fate is unscatched(if a bit tired) there can be various reasons for this aside of what you described, yet non of that can be confirmed xDU.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Broken shins!

Between her wheel's grip on the ground, or her joints and bones as her body goes hurtling forward past her feet, SOMETHING has to break first.

Wheels off the ground or body folded over her own legs... either way, Subaru's going for a painful tumble. It's actually better for her if the wheels let go first.

It's probably a moot point though, as she probably wouldn't be going THAT fast. Still, the point remains that Magical Flight makes for better breaks than rollerblades.
Barrier Jacket! xD

Joking aside, we're talking about speed, not breaks, Magical flight in closed spaces must be executed carefully as there's not enough space for sudden high-speed turns or complex aerial maneuvers, Mach Caliber's design and funcionts allow for a reliable grip on the ground and flexible mobility on surfaces which allow for more stable speed on that kind of places. I concede you that Subaru's cyborg body have something to do with her being faster but the "Rocket-Rollerblades" are still the pivotal tool to achieve said speed and control. I really doubt Subaru can be that fast just running on foot.

Subaru abused Mach Caliber to the extreme and suffered various injuries/damage so she does have a limit for how fast she can be, still proven that, even if a bit reckless, she can be faster than Nanoha on closed corridors.
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Old 2011-09-18, 16:42   Link #85
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
But is the closest example i find for seemingly instant, NON-magical teleportation.
Which only matters IF Deville proves he can teleport instantly, under his own power.

I add that qualifier because I'm pretty sure he had to instantly teleport away from Fate to escape her, but he would probably have the Huckebein's ship to help him teleport back inside.


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Deville of Huckebein xD!
An event in which it happened, not a person who MIGHT or might not have the capability.


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Magical Teleportation/Dimensional transfer, Deville doesn't belong to that category.
His method may be different, but that doesn't mean he isn't obeying the same physical laws.

Does it matter how you're flying if you still have to contest gravity and wind resistance? If Deville is teleporting by traversing subspace like mages do, he might have to deal with the same problems.

But, I'll grant you, he might NOT.


Quote:
We see, tough, teleporting from Arnage's possition to Nanoha's in what appears to be a really short amount of time. enough to pull an Oh Carp face from the White Devil.
...

Hang on, you're onto something without directly touching on it.

Let's assume I'm right, and Deville actually executed TWO teleports just then. One to travel outside of Raising Heart's sensor range, and another get behind Nanoha. In between those two moments, he would need to scry for Nanoha's exact position and the direction she was facing -- or he would need to recieve such information from his allies.

His entire window of disappearance was less than a minute.

1) Start first teleport
2) Arrive outside of range (or perhaps aboard the HB ship)
3) Scry or recieve information on Nanoha
4) Set coordinates, possibly wait a little for the best opportunity, start second teleport
5) Arrive behind Nanoha and attack.

Of course, there's little or no way to figure out exactly how much time each step took. But it's CLEAR evidence that his short jumps cannot take longer than 20 seconds from start to finish.

Still not clear enough evidence that he can use them in the middle of a fight, though.


And yes, I'm firmly secure in the "two jumps" hypothesis. Because otherwise, he would need a method of knowing that Nanoha would still be in that one spot, facing that same direction, by the time he got there, or else some way to watch his target and adjust his destination and orientation to match.

Or he's gambling that she'll stand absolutely still for nearly a whole minute, which is a sucker bet.


Quote:
Yep, instant teleporters can try to catch their opponents off guard by selecting carefully the moment to change positions, if they can't follow the movement speed of their opponent they can force their opponents into following them, even if their pattern of teleport is somewhat predictable they can use said predictableness to bait their opponents for a surprise counter-attack. Of course, results are relative to the teleporter and speedster's skills and strategies.
But the artist/writer apparently thought that Deville's greatest strength in a battle with Fate was... strength.

Because that's what the artist thought was cool enough to draw; Deville getting bigger and stronger, and smashing Fate away.

It's rather like how we see Arnage using firepower rather than a battleaxe; because firepower is supposed to be her strong point.

How was the short jump used? To justify how Deville can get into axe-range with someone, without making him a speed-freak like Fate.

In other words, the short jump has only been used as a way to close range to melee-distance, and only as part of an ambush. He uses this way twice, and no other way is seen.

And the artist would surely think that an instantly-teleporting monster-man-mountain would be interesting enough to draw in the few panels that he's giving to Deville and Fate's fight, right?

Or even that an untransformed Deville using instant teleportation to fight Fate would be more interesting that showing Deville's transformation before an epic final encounter?


Quote:
Fate does reach Nanoha's blind spots a couple of times but she was saved by Raising Heart's auto-guard which have much faster reaction time than Nanoha's councsious shielding.
I'll grant that this may be what actually happened more than once. It's been a while since I've re-watched the whole series.


Quote:
Probably Deville have better knowledge of how to predict meele attacks and react to them, as Signum he must have really good timing to catch Fate's hits
Begs the question of where he learned to fight like that.

Actually, where did ANY of these muthertrucking Huckebeins come from?

Too much mystery, not enough history! There's WAY too much new and confusing shit going on to have this much background unexplained.



If the Rollerblades are responsible for better speed than flight, Wing Road removes any of the problems with achieving "as the crow flies" speed.

Which means Subaru becomes faster than Nanoha EVERYWHERE.


And who said anything about footspeed? Don't be silly.
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Old 2011-09-18, 16:50   Link #86
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
If the Rollerblades are responsible for better speed than flight, Wing Road removes any of the problems with achieving "as the crow flies" speed.

Which means Subaru becomes faster than Nanoha EVERYWHERE.
There are several factors in the way of that theory though. One is that Nanoha was carying a passenger, which limited her speed. Two is that the area limits flying both mentally and physically (enclosed corridor versus open air) and three, Wing Road is a magic spell. This means that using Wing Road constantly drains energy which would otherwise be transfered to speed, explaining why Subaru is faster on the ground then when she's on Wing Road.

Though having said that... it is quite possible that Subaru outspeeds Nanoha. Nanoha has never been much of a speed user, after all. Unlike Subaru, who relies on it to get into melee combat.
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Old 2011-09-18, 17:00   Link #87
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Plus there's the problem that Wing Road telegraphs your position as to where you're going to be, which is an extremely dangerous risk in aerial combat.
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Old 2011-09-18, 18:28   Link #88
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Originally Posted by al103 View Post
Strikers did NOT show that Drones are illegal by themselves. It was that little fact that Jail used them to rob people... Also what is illegal for citizen can be legal for government (organizations) - like possessing heavy weaponry... or semi-independent military robots.
The only people using Drones, not Devices, beside Jail was...none. Not even unarmed ones for peaceful purposes. So either they're illegal, had some parts of them that are illegal, or Midchildan civilization in general just has a general aversion against using them. And if the latter's the case, Jail's little stunt at the end of Strikers certainly won't increase their public image.

Of course, that might explain why they're humanoid: to give them a friendlier image to the public (might need to ditch the helmet, thoug).
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Old 2011-09-18, 20:48   Link #89
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Oh man, I can’t believe I’m saying anything at all remotely complimentary about those Raptors. Damn you sugar right to hell, curses.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold
For some reason, no one on present-day Midchilda seemed to remember the Mariage, and we don't know if the TSAB released the truth about the attackers who destroyed the Marine Garden or committed those murders.
Mid-Childa tends to forget a hell of a lot while we’re at it, but that’s neither here nor there. After the events of A’s, and StrikerS? I’m inclined to think that the TSAB doesn’t release any information it remotely even feels like not doing so. Which again, could be an interesting plot line in terms of what does the Truth™ actually matter to magic society, and at what point does the TSAB cease to be protecting the public from horribly dangerous knowledge and is just covering its ass for the sake of last minute convenience, but I somehow doubt that Tsuzuki could do that one maturely.

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Combat Android Drones is just too close for comfort. Especially when you give machines life-like human faces. That's just creepy on top of frightening.
To be fair (stupid Force…), on a first look, like with all of the combat cyborgs, there’s nothing to indicate that they’re synthetic. Why they thought to give them human faces? I got nothing. Maybe that was for negotiation situations, where one of the models takes off the helmet and has the controller talk to the suspects through the body. More intimate than just through a phone or telepathy. Or something.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett
Man, I could think of a bunch of different ways to do that that don't make your dangerous new robots look like Alpha 5.
Alpha 5 with help managed to stall Ecliptor for a bit. The helmet design is stupid, but don’t diss A5 because of it, even if he sometimes needed some old school C-3PO abuse.

…okay, I admit that I really loved Power Rangers in Space.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias
ot even unarmed ones for peaceful purposes. So either they're illegal, had some parts of them that are illegal, or Midchildan civilization in general just has a general aversion against using them.
The series really should answer this one. So much time could be saved by navy/patrol ships carrying remote controlled probe drones to reconnoiter unexplored planets, and then sending down the troops when something is scanned and then found, or opposition comes up. There’s no given or implied reason as to why society would disallow synthetics.
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Old 2011-09-18, 22:06   Link #90
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That was Alpha 6, dude.

And for my part, if they're meant to not be scary to the public, I'd have them come in sizes other than 'giant'.
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Old 2011-09-19, 01:46   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Have we ever seen Fate overwhelming anyone with a flurry of close-range attacks too fast to defend against?
Fate's final battle in StrikerS where the Numbers defending Jail couldn't even touch her.
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Old 2011-09-19, 02:06   Link #92
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That's not a flurry of attacks, though. Just repeated dash-n-slash, up until Fate decided to play Number baseball with Tre. And frankly speaking, I've seen better choreographed high-speed combat; they didn't pull it off that well.
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Old 2011-09-19, 02:21   Link #93
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That's not a flurry of attacks, though. Just repeated dash-n-slash, up until Fate decided to play Number baseball with Tre. And frankly speaking, I've seen better choreographed high-speed combat; they didn't pull it off that well.
Flurry of attacks mainly works if the characters are pretty slow and gravity is important though.
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Old 2011-09-19, 03:15   Link #94
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Making tools human-like is nothing new in Nanohaverse. Familiars, unison devices, in terms of appearance the raptors are only one more on a growing list.
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Old 2011-09-19, 08:02   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Flurry of attacks mainly works if the characters are pretty slow and gravity is important though.
That's not the point. The point is that Fate isn't getting up in her opponent's face and making five attacks so fast that her opponent can't even block or dodge one without getting hit by the rest.

Which just plain doesn't happen. Fate's fast attack speed is with a hit-and-run manuever, and the RUN part of that means that she can't follow up on the one strike, hit or miss. Also, it means that she has to turn around and make another pass to strike again, which "telegraphs" her next attack.

That is, it makes it obvious she's going to attack, and gives a person at least a little time to respond before it happens.


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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
That's not a flurry of attacks, though. Just repeated dash-n-slash, up until Fate decided to play Number baseball with Tre. And frankly speaking, I've seen better choreographed high-speed combat; they didn't pull it off that well.
I can only remember two fights that StrikerS DID pull off well:

1) Teana's showdown with three Numbers. Not the best animated, to my fuzzy memory, but it was probably the most complicated fight-coreography in a season of really, disappointingly, insultingly simple fights. (Dash and slash, dash and smash, dash and clash, oops, I lost...)

2) Subaru's berserker take down of the Numbers who had beaten her sister. Much better animation than I remember Teana's scene having, and while the correography wasn't complicated, it didn't need to be, and it was at least SATISFYING.

But this is off-topic.
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Old 2011-09-19, 10:17   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Or he's gambling that she'll stand absolutely still for nearly a whole minute, which is a sucker bet.
Not as sucker if we considering that Deville assault Nanoha right after she ended up preparing her defensive perimeter. Which take a 10-20 seconds, more than enough for little instant teleport.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
And who said anything about footspeed? Don't be silly.
You implied that by attributing her superior speed entirely to the fact she's a cyborg(reafirmed by your comment that said the flying numbers where faster than Subaru following that logic). Being a combat cyborg alone doesn't make up for her speed, it is Mach Caliber's achievement in great part.
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Old 2011-09-19, 11:24   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That's not the point. The point is that Fate isn't getting up in her opponent's face and making five attacks so fast that her opponent can't even block or dodge one without getting hit by the rest.

Which just plain doesn't happen. Fate's fast attack speed is with a hit-and-run manuever, and the RUN part of that means that she can't follow up on the one strike, hit or miss. Also, it means that she has to turn around and make another pass to strike again, which "telegraphs" her next attack.

That is, it makes it obvious she's going to attack, and gives a person at least a little time to respond before it happens.
All of this is false.

Fate doesn't do 5 hits too fast for the enemy to counter because She knocks them out in one hit. Making 5 Hits when one is enough is utterly stupid.

Against Tre, *Tre herself was a speedster*.

Fate 'doing another pass' is for the same reason Deville teleported to attack nanoha. Not for Speed, but in order to attack a blind spot. the main reason she sometimes does another pass is to get at one, not because needs one to attack.
Quote:
I can only remember two fights that StrikerS DID pull off well:

1) Teana's showdown with three Numbers. Not the best animated, to my fuzzy memory, but it was probably the most complicated fight-coreography in a season of really, disappointingly, insultingly simple fights. (Dash and slash, dash and smash, dash and clash, oops, I lost...)

2) Subaru's berserker take down of the Numbers who had beaten her sister. Much better animation than I remember Teana's scene having, and while the correography wasn't complicated, it didn't need to be, and it was at least SATISFYING.

But this is off-topic.
Yes, i am the first person who LOATHS fate scenes. I find them incredibly annoying. But all your arguments have nothing to do with what happens, and everything to do with you not liking this sort of combat. I can sympathise.

Myself, i loaths "lots of strikes while being stationary' too. So in that at least i approved of how it went.
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Old 2011-09-19, 11:34   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
All of this is false.

Fate doesn't do 5 hits too fast for the enemy to counter because She knocks them out in one hit. Making 5 Hits when one is enough is utterly stupid.
... go re-read his statement again. He just got done saying she doesn't do that. And here you are, saying that that's false and then... saying the same thing.
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Old 2011-09-19, 14:54   Link #99
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What Rising Dragon said.
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Old 2011-09-19, 18:14   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Chapter 12.5, Page 10 -- Nanoha and Raising Heart notice that Arnage and Deville have take out Isis and are rushing towards her.

Page 11 -- Raising Heart clearly says, "Emergency! The reaction of axeman disappeared!"
Just wanna point out one thing here... you are saying that a magic device lost sensor contact of of someone who is anti-magic personified. Not necessarily that he teleported.
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