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Old 2011-09-07, 15:26   Link #21
qwertyuiopz
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why is lightning so OP?
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Old 2011-09-07, 15:29   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But the strongest wind attack being beaten by the strongest lighting defense is stupid, in this case it's really wind > lighting, and a dead raikage.
I don't see how the armor "beat" the FRS considering the armor was eliminated after being hit by the technique. Using your elemental logic above we can reason that the FRS Naruto threw was slightly weaker than Raikages Raiton armor, but managed to eliminate it anyway since it was wind vs. lightning.

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At least Kishimoto should have shown something like a blown off upper body that regenerates in zombie mode (similar to Cell regenerating a full upper body). Or if he goes for the cell-level damage, then show that all cells were severed but the zombie-cells regenerate.
Why would he do this if this Raikage happens to be able to withstand the FRS...

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However that noname lighting ninja dragging around Naruto was kinda stupid, Naruto looked so weak there that it's hard to imagine that he stands a chance against Sasuke or Madara.
He pulled him out of the way before the wall went up because Naruto probably wasn't paying attention to what the allies just cast behind him, he didn't "drag him around". I don't see how he looks weak because of that, or how its "stupid".

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Well i guess Kishimoto will do the same thing he did before Pain attacked the village: in a very short time Naruto pulls out of his ass another large powerup. That's why i would have preferred him training with Itachi in a Tsukiyomi world for a reasonable amount of time instead of random stupid powerups in a few days.
...What large powerup did Naruto get here from a "few days"? The kyuubi attack? I would expect that he'd be able to do it if he is controlling the kyuubi's chakra, besides the other new things he is able to do, why should we not expect something he was able to do so long ago when he had much less control of it...

Last edited by Midnight Commander; 2011-09-07 at 15:42.
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Old 2011-09-07, 15:35   Link #23
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I'd say after Naruto uses this Bijuu Dama he should be about empty and then turn into the damsel in distress when the big hitters come for him in his helpless state...
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Old 2011-09-07, 15:50   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
I'd say after Naruto uses this Bijuu Dama he should be about empty and then turn into the damsel in distress when the big hitters come for him in his helpless state...
Isn't it just a clone?
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Old 2011-09-07, 16:33   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Then why out of all the ninjas available, choose the Earth Users to defend against the jutsu ?
Because, yes he picked the Earth users, and he later explained it was to defend against ligthning.
Probably because the earth-wall was meant to act as a frame for the rubber used to try and stop the lightining attack, and it was a wall made by several ninja; better some mitigation than none.The dominant factor of what broke through the rubber was probably the Raikage's raw strength. The translation I read didn't state anything about earth countering lightining. I really don't think its that serious.

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Well, you either missed the part where he trained for this new Rasengan because he needed it and it was fate his father prepared him for it by creating the Rasengan ... or maybe you think it wasn't important ?
I was just making the point (which is still valid) that the reason behind Naruto's rasengan being ineffective in these instances wasn't its alleged lack of power, so your claim suggesting he needed a stronger rasengan because he couldn't kill those two particular opponents with it wasn't really conslusive. For example, some of Deidara's techniques were ineffectve against Sasuke, it doesn't necessarily mean he needs stronger versions of them, or that they are weak, they are simply not the ideal techniques in that situation. None of Naruto's types of Rasengans would kill the Cerebus, and it seems he needs a very specific attack to defeat the Raikage. And, I actually don't care that he was given the new "Planet-Rasengan". Throw in an "asteroid-rasengan" for all I care, I didn't complain about any of his new rasengans.

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From that day on, the FRS days were numbered ... AT this point, it' obvious Susanoo with or without the mirror will brush them like nothng and that's where he'll need the mirror.
I'm sure the Susanoo will have some kind of an answer for the FRS, but you do realize that probably none of Naruto's one-hitters will work against Sasuke anyway right? Not even this new Rasengan, if for no other reason than he doesn't actually want to kill him.

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It's not improvisation, it's unleashing your new move after your former strongest move failed miserably.
Except that the condensed chakra ball attack is nothing new considering its been shown over 250 chapters ago. I wouldn't say his FRS "failed miserably" either, considering it completely wiped out the Raikage's raiton armor, and had him on his back still smoltering. Just because it didn't end the fight right away doesn't mean its completely useless. You're exaggerating and overreacting.

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It's not strategy either ... It's DBZ / Bleach fights. And definitely not early Naruto fights.
To his credit, Naruto did try to use some strategy throughout the chapter, from when he came in with the sun directly behind him making it hard for the Raikage to see, to trying to feint the Raikage with the FRS, and asking for intel --its definetely a note-worthy improvement from what we've seen from him in the past.
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Old 2011-09-07, 16:57   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Shiryuu View Post
Is Raikage naturally tough or is it the zombie body?
Considering the praise the Sandaime Raikage's prodigious resilience and durability recieved this chapter (from both Naruto and Dodai), I would assume that he withstood because of his body's natural toughness (though without the Edo Tensei regeneration, I think it's a safe bet that it would at least have left him wounded (but still in shape to continue to fight)).

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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Then why out of all the ninjas available, choose the Earth Users to defend against the jutsu ?
Perhaps because Earth-users are the only ones capable of making a defensive wall in that environment (i.e. they are in a desert, and most Water-users seems to need water under their feet to use water jutsu)? In addition, Dodai might have needed the wall to put up his Lava Rubber Wall.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The chapter just shows that Naruto has learned the 2 things Itachi was teaching him: he was a teamplayer and he knows that the raikage must have a weak point.
^The Naruto that we see right now is a clone, and hasn't received the valuable lesson that Itachi taught Naruto...

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But the strongest wind attack being beaten by the strongest lighting defense is stupid, in this case it's really wind > lighting, and a dead raikage. At least Kishimoto should have shown something like a blown off upper body that regenerates in zombie mode (similar to Cell regenerating a full upper body). Or if he goes for the cell-level damage, then show that all cells were severed but the zombie-cells regenerate.
The Rasenshuriken wasn't "beaten" by Sandaim Raikage's Raiton Armor, it actually dispersed it, but the Raikage apparently withstood it because of his exceptional bodily durability.

Moreover, showing Raikage blown in half and then survive thanks to Edo Tensei would have contradicted what appears to be Kishi's intention this chapter: to hype the man's freakish resilience.

^That being said, I do think Kishi went a little overboard...
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Old 2011-09-07, 17:16   Link #27
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Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin View Post
I was just making the point (which is still valid) that the reason behind Naruto's rasengan being ineffective in these instances wasn't its alleged lack of power, so your claim suggesting he needed a stronger rasengan because he couldn't kill those two particular opponents with it wasn't really conslusive
None of Naruto's types of Rasengans would kill the Cerebus, and it seems he needs a very specific attack to defeat the Raikage. And, I actually don't care that he was given the new "Planet-Rasengan". Throw in an "asteroid-rasengan" for all I care, I didn't complain about any of his new rasengans.

what you refuse to see is that it's not a "specific Rasengan", it's the STRONGER UPDATED RASENGAN.

Unless you think Naruto' last training session was for the whole sake of this stint against the dead Raikage and the jutsu will be forgotten right after that ...



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I'm sure the Susanoo will have some kind of an answer for the FRS, but you do realize that probably none of Naruto's one-hitters will work against Sasuke anyway right? Not even this new Rasengan, if for no other reason than he doesn't actually want to kill him.

Sigh ...
Do you realize one of his one-hitters will break through Susanoo (not killing Sasuke obviously), hence being succesful ?
And that it won't be FRS, but the FUCKING NEW UPGRADED RASENGAN NARUTO JUST LEARNED ...


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Except that the condensed chakra ball attack is nothing new considering its been shown over 250 chapters ago.
Sigh (again)

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I wouldn't say his FRS "failed miserably" either, considering it completely wiped out the Raikage's raiton armor, and had him on his back still smoltering.
Just because it didn't end the fight right away doesn't mean its completely useless. You're exaggerating and overreacting.
Well, that's not like the point of this fight was to shove down our threats that Naruto needed a bigger Rasengan because FRS just won't do it at this level ...

By the way, Naruto didn't decribe the FRS has a jutsu that "wiped out the Raikage's raiton armor, and had him on his back still smoltering", but as a jutsu that "didn't put a scratch on him"
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Old 2011-09-07, 19:07   Link #28
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absolutely silly ending - OH I FORGOT i had teh bijuu bomb.

i was expecting something a little more dramatic and dire.
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Old 2011-09-08, 00:57   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The chapter just shows that Naruto has learned the 2 things Itachi was teaching him: he was a teamplayer and he knows that the raikage must have a weak point.
This clone shouldn't be aware of what Itachi said and has done everything by himself except for telling Gaara to give him a lift last week which hardly make him a teamplayer.
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I don't have a problem with the way elements were used, except the raikage's armor beating the rasenshuriken.
The lightning armor didn't beat the FRS, the 3rd's Raikage's body did. The man is another freak of nature.

And the plan wasn't to stop his lightning attack with an earth wall, it was to slow him down with a earth wall covered with lava with rubber-like property.
Not sure where your fingers shooting lighting laser comes from, it only seems to be a more focused Chidori-like jutsu. The less fingers used, the more focused the attack power.
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Old 2011-09-08, 01:06   Link #30
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
This seemed like a pretty pointless chapter imo. At leats the fights with those pseudo Kyuubi twins fleshed out some minor characters and made the mooks feel more important. This fight only fleshes out a guy that's already dead and won't affect the main plot in anyway.
not really pointless but boring, especially when you're expecting to see some real fights and not just fights involving edo tensei zombies once again. but i kinda see kishi's purpose for this chapter. he's trying to show his readers what naruto is capable and not capable of. i'm not too impressed with the chapter though. however, i kinda liked that naruto couldn't easily beat the raikage. that would give him a wake up call. an overpowered and egotistic naruto is dull.

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I wish he'd at least show some Madara, Itachi or Kabuto. At this point I'd be happy if he had all the edo tensei kage defeated out of view and moved on with the real fights already.
yeah, i was hoping to see some panels showing them at least. oh well...
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Old 2011-09-08, 08:30   Link #31
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With all these people who have bijuu-level chakras/can stand up to bijuu, you'd think Madara would just seal them up in his statue. It'd save a lotta trouble.
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Old 2011-09-08, 08:54   Link #32
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Originally Posted by qwertyuiopz View Post
why is lightning so OP?
It's not so OP I think.
Rasenshuriken managed to null the Raiton armor though.
It just didn't have enough power to pierce the armor.

This chapter does have it's own quality.

3rd Raikage strength is clearly make a difference from Muu case.
In Muu case, he's just using Dust Release. An enemy who heavily depend on his ninjutsu.
Naruto got Gaara and Tsuchikage as his backup too.

Now it comes different case.
3rd Raikage main strength come from his physical advantage. Raiton armor applied to boost his strength and speed.
Naruto backup's quality is not as good as before, especially for this kind of enemy who have no doubt to attack frontally.

It may looks like a plot device to using the Bijuu-dama.
But, before that, Naruto really did take Itachi words to analyze the enemy.

Can't wait Sasuke to going rampage through the battlefield using Susanoo + Amaterasu Sword.
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Old 2011-09-08, 10:08   Link #33
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I guess it isn't yet common knowledge but the Naruto fighting the 3rd raikage is a kage bunshin.

The original Naruto with Bee split himself into multiple clones before he was actually fighting.
The original Naruto with Bee then run into Itachi and Nagato and this original Naruto got the Itachi speech.
The original Naruto is always with Bee since Bee promised to look after him.

So whenever there is a Naruto running around without Bee it is a pre Itachi speech clone.


on topic:
I like the use of the hands but it doesn't improve Naruto's fighting style. Also these new foes that keep on upping the powerlevels only tend to make most battles stale and seem all alike.
I'm hoping Kishi has something up his sleave to recreate some of the show's/manga's former fighting glory.
And please more plot!!!
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Old 2011-09-08, 10:18   Link #34
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
I guess it isn't yet common knowledge but the Naruto fighting the 3rd raikage is a kage bunshin.

The original Naruto with Bee split himself into multiple clones before he was actually fighting.
The original Naruto with Bee then run into Itachi and Nagato and this original Naruto got the Itachi speech.
The original Naruto is always with Bee since Bee promised to look after him.

So whenever there is a Naruto running around without Bee it is a pre Itachi speech clone.


on topic:
I like the use of the hands but it doesn't improve Naruto's fighting style. Also these new foes that keep on upping the powerlevels only tend to make most battles stale and seem all alike.
I'm hoping Kishi has something up his sleave to recreate some of the show's/manga's former fighting glory.
And please more plot!!!
You miss Naruto and Kakashi training for Rasen-Shuriken ^^;

Kagebunshin is good for sharing information.
Information from Kagebunshin will received by the original one when the clone is released.
Itachi taught that knowledge of weakness to the main body.
It's obvious if the clone will share similar information since it was the main body-- the one who get taught by Itachi.

Personally, I did think Naruto fighting style is improved.
Each of his clone is now be able to handle things by their own.
A contrast from his previous state where bunshin is basically used for teamwork between bunshins and real self.
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Old 2011-09-08, 13:16   Link #35
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the only problem is,,, the clone is kinda too strong for a clone itself is it? its still imbalance
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Old 2011-09-08, 13:47   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
I don't see how the armor "beat" the FRS considering the armor was eliminated after being hit by the technique.
The armor and the FRS nullified each other, so they were the same level. Of course we can't really know if the cellular level damage that is good against living opponent has any effect on zombies. So it could be that the impact of the FRS was nullified but after that it was swirling on the raikage as a huge ball which contains infinite cellular level attacks, but the zombies are not affected since they are already dead and so their cells are different somehow.

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
Using your elemental logic above we can reason that the FRS Naruto threw was slightly weaker than Raikages Raiton armor, but managed to eliminate it anyway since it was wind vs. lightning.
That or the zombie body being that strong or this being a plot hole
Nagato's body rebuilt itself very fast after being burnt by amaterasu, so we can say that the raikage just regenerated very fast his cells/body.

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
Why would he do this if this Raikage happens to be able to withstand the FRS...
That is what i was complaining about, there should have been more damage. Suddenly dumbing down the FRS is a bad solution, after Kishimoto hyped it up so much, i know there is power inflation in shonen manga like this, but if the FRS is so useless at this stage i wonder how much time will pass until the strongest guys can blow up planets

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
He pulled him out of the way before the wall went up because Naruto probably wasn't paying attention to what the allies just cast behind him, he didn't "drag him around". I don't see how he looks weak because of that, or how its "stupid".
The guy who is the new "yellow flash" is being saved by people who should be much slower than he is, that is the strange thing. Kishimoto is messing up the speed levels of different ninja, while the raikage was so fast that Sasuke was not able to see him with a sharingan eye (he escaped the amaterasu) and Naruto is supposedly at least as fast as the raikage in kyuubi mode, we don't see anything of that right now. Why didn't Kishimoto at least explain that somehow, for example he is not using this speed because he still didn't master it (like in the old days when he didn't use summoning because he was bad at it, but when he was in big trouble he managed to summon gamabunta).

When we see cetrain ninjas who are really strong we can feel that they are in control of every situation, they know what's happening around them at all times, here we see Naruto showing his stupid face when he is being dragged out of the way, it's funny but at the same time it's kinda disappointing.

But seeing this maybe i should be happy, because Naruto still being weak just means that the end of the manga is far away

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
...What large powerup did Naruto get here from a "few days"? The kyuubi attack? I would expect that he'd be able to do it if he is controlling the kyuubi's chakra, besides the other new things he is able to do, why should we not expect something he was able to do so long ago when he had much less control of it...
Let's see:
1, He got the half completed FRS in a few days training with Kakashi.
2, He mastered sage mode in about 2 weeks
3, He learned the kyuubi mode in a few weeks or maybe just few days.
It seem that if Naruto has a lot of time to train, for example 3 years with Jiraiya, he is unable to become strong. But when he had only day he can become so strong that Shikaku tells to Shikamaru that they are useless, Naruto is so much stronger than them. So if he needs another powerup, and that was the reason i complained about the failed FRS, then he will get it in a few days' time, as we see Sasuke is ready to kick ass, Naruto does not have weeks or months to train.
I think the powerup will be to combine sage mode with kyuubi mode, but doing this on the battlefield will make it a very rushed powerup. Maybe Kishimoto will invent some reason why Madara will temporarily retreat, so that Naruto has more time for his powerup. Kabuto is a good plot device to do so.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
This clone shouldn't be aware of what Itachi said and has done everything by himself except for telling Gaara to give him a lift last week which hardly make him a teamplayer.
So can we be sure that this is just a clone? I thought the clones are already done killing the transformed Zetsu spies and have been dispelled. But in that case i was completely wrong saying that Naruto is weak, this is just a clone, haha, if just one clone can do so much then Naruto is very strong indeed

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The lightning armor didn't beat the FRS, the 3rd's Raikage's body did. The man is another freak of nature.
Well in that case we can just say this is some magical body, with no explanation given why a body can stand a jutsu that completely erased human path pain. At least we don't have to argue about lighting vs wind power level any more

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Not sure where your fingers shooting lighting laser comes from, it only seems to be a more focused Chidori-like jutsu. The less fingers used, the more focused the attack power.
I just assumed that because he cut through the wall so fast, it's faster to cut with laser-like attack then manually cutting (would also look stupid as he has to move his arm up and down as he cuts). When Kakashi or Sasuke used their chidori/raikiri against some object their arm often went in the object and they got stuck then (for example Sasuke's arm stuck in Gaara's sand or the raikage's lighting armor or Naruto's body). Their attack didn't cut, it pierced.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2011-09-08 at 14:05.
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:09   Link #37
mrShady
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
You miss Naruto and Kakashi training for Rasen-Shuriken ^^;

Kagebunshin is good for sharing information.
Information from Kagebunshin will received by the original one when the clone is released.
Itachi taught that knowledge of weakness to the main body.
It's obvious if the clone will share similar information since it was the main body-- the one who get taught by Itachi.

Personally, I did think Naruto fighting style is improved.
Each of his clone is now be able to handle things by their own.
A contrast from his previous state where bunshin is basically used for teamwork between bunshins and real self.
No I did not miss that training arc. Naruto already had all the clones running around before he met Itachi and unless I missed him undoing the technique before meeting with Itachi and redoing it after meeting him Naruto's clones could not have gained that knowledge.
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:53   Link #38
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
not really pointless but boring, especially when you're expecting to see some real fights and not just fights involving edo tensei zombies once again. but i kinda see kishi's purpose for this chapter. he's trying to show his readers what naruto is capable and not capable of. i'm not too impressed with the chapter though. however, i kinda liked that naruto couldn't easily beat the raikage. that would give him a wake up call. an overpowered and egotistic naruto is dulll...
Hmm...I suppose that's actually rather applaudable that he's willing to establish that before his bigger fights. It makes things a lot less contrived since if he didn't he could've pretty much have Naruto do just about anything in his bigger fights and made him as powerful as he felt like. *cough*Bleach*cough*
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Old 2011-09-08, 17:11   Link #39
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
just means that the end of the manga is far away
Is that supposed to be a good thing?
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Old 2011-09-08, 23:22   Link #40
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FOR THE LOVE OF CHOCOLATE CAKE, SHOW US ITACHI VRS KABUTO!!!!
It would be waaaay better than what we just witnessed this week...*le sigh*
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