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Old 2011-09-25, 07:03   Link #81
Lord of Pandemonium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
Lord of Pendemonium, sometimes I find your conclusion contradicts to your whole idea.
How so?

(I could also say the same about you, but I won't ) btw, LoP is fine, you dont really have to type out my whole tag name you know....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
Edited by LoP
Heh?!? I think you’re the first one I read who post something like that. It seems like your saying Isshin is just and also a substitute/ representative/ proxy shinigami. <------ I said no such thing, you did.
Aren’t Ginjou the first substitute shinigami? <--- um yeah... You say that to say.....what?
Aren’t Ginjou and Ichigo both having shinigami badge to represent their job?<---um...okay....?????
Where does Isshin’s badge?<---um was it ever said that, he had one? Where are you getting this from?
What was that piece of white houri that tie in Isshin’s right arm imply?<---surely you have mistaken me for Kubo... (I am not him)... That's something I will probably find out at the same time you do
Why would Aizen say something “A child of human and…”?<---why indeed?
Why AND? if Masaki and Isshin are just both human,<--- I dunno maybe it's because one is a human from the living realm and the other is a one that was formerly a spirit with supernatural abilities and hailed from the land of dead aka SOUL Society ( heavy emphasis on the SOUL) and they had some babies. It's my guess that shyte like that doesn't happen on the regular--it may have happened twice-- if you consider Ginjou
I want you to know that I am not being a wise ass when I say this but...WHAT!?!?!?! What are you rappin bout?

I am really confused but I am going to answer you the best way I can and it's easier for me to edit your post then to break it up, it's 6 am and I am feeling kind of lazy ....so I dont' feel like breaking it up in quotes. Especially when I am as confused as you are. Plus I really don't know what it is you're getting at


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Did we need proof of that? .
You actually helped me to prove that ...YES some of us do! Because you said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
We already knew human can become shinigami once they die, and on the rare occasion become shinigami whilst they're still alive
Which wasn't the point... The debate was, how can a dead guy become ALIVE again and breed sons & daughters. The point of me saying that Humans can become Shinigami was to make a point (that Rei-chan obviously missed)
Spoiler for Brief Explanation (Rei-chan CLICK ME):


Moving on....

Sure we know that humans can die and become Shinigami but we DID NOT know that a dead guy can live again in the "living realm" and breed rugrats...UNTIL Isshin showed up in his Shinigami garb and killed GF.

My point was it's not impossible because Isshin and all the other Shinigami barring the "The fox Nemu" and "The Hound Koma " are merely humans that do not have the flesh of the living. So it's really not that much of a stretch...for Isshin to mate with a Human from the Living Realm



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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The problem isn't that the two might be different species.The problem is that one of them is physically dead. How can dead people create life?
What is "death" in this series? Merely losing your flesh right? Death doesn't' really mean you're "dead" in Bleach... it just means you're no longer corporeal

He fathered Ichigo and that means that a dead guy knocked a LIVE human woman up. Because Ichigo had a chain of fate that connected him to his body, so it means he was ALIVE and not a spirit in a fake body the entire time.
Isshin being his father ,means that physically some of his parts weren't "dead" at all Well...At least not his swimmers---
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Isshin became a shinigami again eventually.
I am not disputing that either. Why do you think that I am?

To quote Rukia "It is not your body but your SOUL that has become Shinigami"


Which means that's actually irrelevant since that's not something we were debating in the first place..*shrugs*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And Isshin has already hinted that he learned the FGT which is a much stronger hint as to why he lost his powers in the first place.
...and you say that to say.....what?
There is no disputing that, so I wouldn't even try to.
so um yeah. ..What's your point? (Not being sarcastic either, I really want to know what you're getting at here)

"how"
Isshin lost his powers wasn't a debate, was it? "how he regained them" wasn't a debate either At least I don't believe it was

It doesn't matter how or why or when he lost his powers. The point is-- at some point he became a LIVING human in the FLESH. Thus I believe that he got a special gigai from Urahara. The one he created in the TBTP Arc when he was investigating the "disappearing souls" case. I believe that Rukia had modified version of that one, because Urahara wanted to hide her, and he wanted to seal the Hougyoku within her so he tried to turn her into a normal human...

.... I thought if that's true, then maybe if nearly disintegrated souls were put back into human form I could stop them from disappearing


Did you notice that? He said "PUT BACK into HUMAN FORM"?

There is no question (at least not in my mind) that this is "HOW" Isshin was able to live again in the land of the living. When he was formerly a soul in the land of the DEAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm...not convinced. The Gigai that Rukia used would've turned her into a human permanently
That could be a lie because Aizen does twists the truth.. but I doubt it.Because at that point he had no reason to do so...he only does so when, it serves a purpose and at that point. The truth would hurt even more (because of Urahara and his habit of keeping secrets and being a manipulative bastard like Aizen except he plays for "Team GOOD GUY")
Not to mention that Rukia herself stated that the gigai wasn't functioning properly

and she didn't get her Shinigami powers back until she was out of the gigai. There was a lot to suggest that she should have gotten her powers back after a short time, but for some odd reason she did not...

So I believe Aizen, because he's not above telling the truth when it serves him. Because "The truth HURTS" and he can use it as a weapon (something he does very well I might add)

So I am going to end this here
--because I started at 6am on the dot and now it's 8 am and replying to you took the longest...because I answered you last...I am out. I need to get some sleep and I want to try to have some hotbuttnaked sex before I go to sleep So I am ending this here --TMI I know--- but I am an exhibitionist and I couldn't help but add that
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
checked what exactly? .
*stare* ... That was a figure of speech
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Yes the unfortunate return of one of manga's most overpower, yet most boring villians.
Aizen boring? Say it ain't so...Aizen is one the most bad ass Villains EVAH!!! BORING?!? how could mind-raping/mind-screwing the entire cast ever be boring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
You were the one who mentioned the quote, and that quote was "Child of a human and a-"
He did not say human fullbringer, he said human... plain as day.
True but it's also true that Aizen was interrupted by Isshin so he could have said...

" Child of a human and a Shinigami ... A child of Human Fullbringer and Shinigami"


Ichigo didn't hear that last part, and the readers have no clue either. While it was implied that Aizen was talking about Isshin. Because of Ichigo's internal monologue were he says..."And a what? I thought I missed it in the explosion (what explosion?!) but there was never any need to hear it. because the answer was soon right before my eyes" leads you to believe Aizen was was indeed talking about Isshin, BUT he might not have been. Ichigo is not a reliable narrator...in fact a few characters are because they can be mistaken or just lying. Or Kubo deliberately misleads you just so he can add a freaky plot-twist , so you don't see coming. Same way Ulquiorra says "The sun is setting in the palm of hands" made it seem like he was talking about Orihime. But in reality he was referring to Ichigo...

Unless everything Ginjou said was a total fabrication with not a shred of truth in it. Fullbringing is an ability that is inherited from parents who are survivors of hollow attacks. If that is true, then how could Ichigo use an ability he didn't inherent? it doesn't make sense....
Speculation? Sure it is but the fact remains that NONE of us knows what he said because Kubo didn't let him finish his sentence. So you really can't say "what he said" plain as day either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by haegar View Post
Kubo might or might not have thought about these things
actually there is more that says he has

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langus View Post


I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call BS on that one. The last time BLEACH cracked the top 5 was with the 2011 Issue 19 of Shonen Jump (Chapter 444 where Ichigo looked like he'd gotten his shinigami powers back) and it was ranked 4th. Since then it's hovered pretty steadily between 8-12th ranking. Feel free to check the rankings yourself here.



Yo.
when was the last time you checked the ranks? If you look at the source that I cannot name, you would see that Bleach is NOW in the top five and it has been posted this week and last week. Before that it was slowly climbing and was at 7th or 8th

Last edited by Lord of Pandemonium; 2011-09-25 at 07:14.
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Old 2011-09-25, 08:51   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
when was the last time you checked the ranks? If you look at the source that I cannot name, you would see that Bleach is NOW in the top five and it has been posted this week and last week. Before that it was slowly climbing and was at 7th or 8th
I think you might be confusing the index list with actual ranks. (And I admit, I have also done the same).

Found a Japanese source showing the true rankings, which takes into account the weeks when chapters have a colour or lead and thus are not ranked.

Douzo.

The most recent results are for Issue 41 which lists Bleach at 11th place. The averages are based off the manga's rankings for the previous 10 issues. As you can see Bleach has sat pretty solidly at 18th place.
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Old 2011-09-25, 10:00   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Langus View Post
The most recent results are for Issue 41 which lists Bleach at 11th place. The averages are based off the manga's rankings for the previous 10 issues. As you can see Bleach has sat pretty solidly at 18th place.
i don't really check the rankings often but i know some japanese manga readers and most of them don't even read bleach anymore. the undefeated number one manga in japan is one piece and naruto is a distant second. some of them even say that naruto's position might soon be taken by toriko considering the kind of popularity this new manga is currently enjoying. that's what they say anyway.

Quote:
Btw, Kubo did not abandon Zombie powder, It was cancelled by the Weekly Shonen Jump. Then, Kubo submitted another story but then rejected. At last, Bleach the “Mala Suerte” for Kubo was approved after all of his previous works rejected many times, only implying that…
oh so that's why! i thought he abandoned it. too bad, i thought the premise was good. at least it was more original than the bleach plot.

all this discussion about shinigami and humans is confusing me. according to japanese superstition the shinigami are keepers of the realm of the dead, they reap souls and give judgment. kinda like the grim reapers in western culture. i don't think they're a race nor do i think that they're spirits. if they were then they should be immune to death. but shinigami are known to die, at least in kubo's world they do. so my theory is they are somewhat similar to mythical gods like the greek, norse, gaelic gods. the shinigami are called death gods after all. the mythical gods are immortal but they could technically die (or fade) when mortals stop believing in them. they draw their strength from the prayers the mortals offer them. they can also be killed by other gods. they can breed amongst themselves and even with humans. sometimes they do it using mortal forms, sometimes they don't. as for the substitute shinigami, they're kinda like the demigods, half mortal half god. they're human but they have godly powers. ichigo is human and yet he possesses the powers of a shinigami. i don't claim that the gods and the shinigami are the same but i think they might be similar. am i making sense? forgive me, i have trouble sleeping. this is the result of my sleep deprivation.
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Old 2011-09-25, 10:37   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
according to japanese superstition shinigami are keepers of the realm of the dead. kinda like the grim reapers in western culture. i don't think they're a race nor do i think that they're spirits either.
All I can say is that in Bleach, Kubo deemed shinigami to be a race of spiritual beings with high spiritual energy. On a side note, I think what might confuse some people from considering shinigami to be a "race" is this idea that a race isn't something you can choose to willingly become a part of just by training and getting stronger. However in Bleach, things are different apparently when we're referring to souls and spiritual beings.

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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
shinigami are known to die, at least in kubo's world they do. so my theory is they are somewhat similar to mythical gods like the greek, norse, gaelic gods. the shinigami are called death gods after all. the mythical gods are immortal but they could technically die when mortals stop believing in them. they draw their strength from the prayers the mortals offer them. they can also breed amongst themselves and even with humans. sometimes they do it using mortal forms, sometimes they don't.
I think when we refer to the term "death-god", "god" is only meant to be interpreted as a general (and vague) term for a "supreme being"--which is indeed one official definition for the word "god". Obviously being "supreme" doesn't necessarily have to mean being immortal. In fact, the word allows for a lot flexibility and interpretation. I mean we've even had real-life civilizations who've referred to actual human beings as "gods". So it's an easier & less complicated way to interpret it IMO.

Quote:
i don't claim that the gods and the shinigami are the same but i think they might be similar. am i making sense?
I think you made sense. I just feel like you might've overcomplicated things a little. lol
Personally, I feel that shinigami do indeed possess supernatural powers that would qualify them to be "supreme beings". So it's not out-of-place to regard them as gods in that sense. It only becomes a major problem if you let your own views of what a real "God" should be conflict with the general definition. Notice, even Aizen had his own views of what constitutes a "god" despite already being a death "god" himself.
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:57   Link #85
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Old 2011-09-25, 13:33   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
My point is that the Gigai Rukia used was supposed to turn her into a human permanently. In other words, she couldn't become a shinigami again. If Isshin used the same Gigai, he wouldn't have been able to become a shinigami again. But we know he did. Therefore, Isshin did not use a Gigai like Rukia's, contrary to what you said. (Only now have you actually clarified that you didn't mean Isshin had a gigai exactly like Rukia's)
It's not quite clear that she would never beable to become a Shinigami again but it was makeing her human and had it continued she would have ended up chained to her body and the only way to return to SS and return to being a Shinigami would be to die. It's unclear what would have happend after that as we don't know how much a soul is able to remember of their life if they die a normal death. Remember the bird kid did not die normaly his soul was taken from his liveing body and placed in the bird long enough for his chain to completely disapear, so he didn't go through any death trama. Also even if she did remember everything the reason that Urahara was trying to turn her human was if that happend, her death as a human would have caused the orb to permently fuse to her soul
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Old 2011-09-26, 01:56   Link #87
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Old 2011-09-26, 02:25   Link #88
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So the whole point of this arc is to show the Fullbringers getting raped and show the improvements all the Captains have made? This is just a massacre. And I'm loving it.

Oh and why does Ichigo need backup?
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Old 2011-09-26, 03:47   Link #89
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Unless it's otherwise stated, and even if it's possible for those in SS to reproduce, I think it's safe to consider humans and the inhabitants of SS all as 'human' but in a different state (and Shinigamis are those with realized powers). I'm more confounded by certain hollows, indeed some humans can become hollows that look like monsters, but then there's the actual animals we've seen in HM, like Bawabawa and Grimmjow in his adjuchas form. And then there's the whole eating each other to look human thing...things get messy.
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Old 2011-09-26, 04:01   Link #90
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
It was pretty much spelled out durring the fight with Thunderwitch Quinceis aren't big power houses themselves they basicly steal power from those around them and use that so the stronger the enemy and ailies around them equals a stronger quincy.
Man that must mean Ishida must have pretended to be shithouse in front of Ulquiorra & Ichigo.
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Old 2011-09-26, 04:02   Link #91
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lol people trying to make sense out of bleach while trollmaster himself couldn't..
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Old 2011-09-26, 04:10   Link #92
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Old 2011-09-26, 05:42   Link #93
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I think you made sense. I just feel like you might've overcomplicated things a little. lol
yeah, i know! damn, i need sleep! lol

i guess i couldn't help compare them to tolkien's valar, they were based on the greek gods but they're not gods though they are quite powerful. they are guardians of their world, keepers of the paradise realm which is their own version of heaven. they're not human, they don't possess material bodies so in a way they were called spirits and yet they're not for they can take on human forms, mate with humans and even die if they choose to lay down their lives or get killed by another one of their kind. but then when i really think about it, i doubt kubo even went as far to think about mythical gods and such.

i can understand the confusion behind the shinigami since kubo seemed to have established one thing and then went on to say another without ample explanation. i've always thought that ichigo was special because he's half human and half shinigami. he was an anomaly. a mere human gaining the powers of a shinigami. so he was given a title, a substitute shinigami. and now we find out that he's not the only one. plus all this fullbringer business is getting more and more confusing. it seems to me that kubo is missing something somewhere. the more he drags on with this mystery, the more it feels like a plothole. well, i guess we'll see.
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Old 2011-09-26, 08:07   Link #94
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
It's not quite clear that she would never beable to become a Shinigami again but it was makeing her human and had it continued she would have ended up chained to her body and the only way to return to SS and return to being a Shinigami would be to die. It's unclear what would have happend after that as we don't know how much a soul is able to remember of their life if they die a normal death. Remember the bird kid did not die normaly his soul was taken from his liveing body and placed in the bird long enough for his chain to completely disapear, so he didn't go through any death trama. Also even if she did remember everything the reason that Urahara was trying to turn her human was if that happend, her death as a human would have caused the orb to permently fuse to her soul
It's true that we never really see any shinigami recall their lives as living humans, but Shreiker seemed to be able to clearly recall his life as a human before becoming a hollow. I tend to think that if hollows retain their memories from life, those who go to Soul Society probably do as well.

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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
yeah, i know! damn, i need sleep! lol

i can understand the confusion behind the shinigami since kubo seemed to have established one thing and then went on to say another without ample explanation. i've always thought that ichigo was special because he's half human and half shinigami. he was an anomaly. a mere human gaining the powers of a shinigami. so he was given a title, a substitute shinigami. and now we find out that he's not the only one.
Kubo never implied Ichigo was the only substitute shinigami. In fact, he established just the opposite when Ichigo was given the badge and Ukitake explained Soul Society's rules for acting substitute shingami, explicitly saying that SS has acknowledged substitute shinigami in the past. What?! Kubo demonstrating consistent continuity? It happens every once in a while.
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Old 2011-09-26, 08:56   Link #95
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I don't recall Ukitake explicitly saying that Substitue shinigami have been acknowledged in the past...
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Old 2011-09-26, 09:10   Link #96
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I believe one of them said that Ukitake was supposed to explain that to Ichigo, but didn't or forgot to.
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Old 2011-09-26, 09:15   Link #97
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Oh right. That was Ishida last chapter.
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Old 2011-09-26, 09:26   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
I believe one of them said that Ukitake was supposed to explain that to Ichigo, but didn't or forgot to.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Oh right. That was Ishida last chapter.

It was Hitsugaya who explained, but Ukitake had already explained it to Ichigo before that when he gave him the badge. Hitsu's explanation was just a reminder. They even used the same flashback Ichigo had of Ukitake in chapter 182.
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Old 2011-09-26, 10:15   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Kubo never implied Ichigo was the only substitute shinigami. In fact, he established just the opposite when Ichigo was given the badge and Ukitake explained Soul Society's rules for acting substitute shingami, explicitly saying that SS has acknowledged substitute shinigami in the past. What?! Kubo demonstrating consistent continuity? It happens every once in a while.
maybe not, but the others certainly reacted that they've never seen the likes of ichigo before, a human who gained shinigami powers and quite powerful at that. everything he did and everything he stood for seemed to be an anomaly. his very existence was an abomination. at least that's the impression i got in the beginning.

remember that giving shinigami powers to a human was considered a crime. how did rukia even know how to give her powers to ichigo? is it possible that others have done the same thing in the past? and perhaps because of this the leaders created a law that prohibits anyone from giving powers to humans?

what are the basis for the title of substitute shinigami anyway? how does one get the privilege of using it? does he have to be half-shinigami like ichigo or simply someone who has been granted shinigami powers by the leaders of soul society? too many unanswered questions...
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Old 2011-09-26, 11:09   Link #100
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
maybe not, but the others certainly reacted that they've never seen the likes of ichigo before, a human who gained shinigami powers and quite powerful at that. everything he did and everything he stood for seemed to be an anomaly. his very existence was an abomination. at least that's the impression i got in the beginning.

remember that giving shinigami powers to a human was considered a crime. how did rukia even know how to give her powers to ichigo? is it possible that others have done the same thing in the past? and perhaps because of this the leaders created a law that prohibits anyone from giving powers to humans?
I don't recall anyone being specifically surprised that Ichigo is a human. Ichigo is an anomaly in more ways than just being a human with shinigami powers. His reiatsu is unnaturally immense and he has hollow abilities. Many characters have shown surprise at these traits, but not really at him being living human. It's definitely treated like a rare thing for a human to ever receive shinigami powers, but it's never been anything unheard of. Like you said, the fact that Rukia knew it was possible to give her powers to a human and that were laws in place against it pretty much shows that.

Quote:
what are the basis for the title of substitute shinigami anyway? how does one get the privilege of using it? does he have to be half-shinigami like ichigo or simply someone who has been granted shinigami powers by the leaders of soul society? too many unanswered questions...
Ukitake just said the individual has to prove themselves to be a benefit to Soul Society to be made a substitute shinigami. And Ginjou said that for someone to receive powers from another shinigami, they need to have their own shinigami powers. So I don't know about having actual shinigami blood as a requirement, but it seems like a human does need to have inherent spiritual power to become a shinigami. In other words, your average joe could never become a substitute.
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