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Old 2011-09-29, 02:33   Link #41
Casshern
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Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
and yeah, i don't believe that Gin is dead -- NO WAY!
I too have a small hope that he was secretly taken into the royal guard, or that maybe he just survived on his own, disappeared and continued living as a rogue. If he survived, I'm sure he'll have an epic return. Gin is a killer who thinks 100 years ahead of everyone else.

As for his morals, I'm sure everyone knows that he was a sadistic S.O.B. He said it himself; he did everything for Matsumoto, not for the sake of some vague justice like punishing evil. Other than that, he was a snake, searching for prey with his tongue and devouring anything that looked tasty. He never said "to protect my friends/family/town etc." He wasn't a hero, he wasn't even an anti-hero, and to me he wasn't a villain either. He was just Gin.
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Old 2011-09-29, 02:36   Link #42
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i dont kno why i read it
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Old 2011-09-29, 02:36   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
Edit: Tell that to Starrk Captain Grab-Ass sure took him out and he was really sympathetic and part of him was a "loli"

Um yeah, it's called, getting rid of the dead weight
It's true in a lot of shounen manga. Just....Not in Bleach. The good guys killed bad guys all throughout Bleach. (Only Ichigo was penalized for doing what everyone but Hitsu did in the fights with the Arrancar)

Hell Mayuri is a Bad-Good-Guy that killed a a whole race of good guys. Gin was a good guy that halved a midget on the same side he was...

In Bleach it's not all black and white. Some good guys are bad guys and some bad guys are actually the good guys. It's very gray and that is one of the things that sets Bleach apart from a LOT of other Shounen.
Stark is really just an anomaly. If you look at all the antagonists most of the sympathetic ones were never actually killed directly by a good guy:
Ulquiorra - Killed by Hollow Ichigo.
Grimmjow - Survived
Hallibel - Survived
Tousen - I don't even know what the hell happened to him.
Gin - Killed by Aizen
Dondorri - Killed himself fighting other hollows.
Afro reject espada that fought Chad - survived
All the other dead espada and fraccion - Weren't sympathetic.

Now look at everyone Ichigo has fought. Despite some nameless hollow in the first arc, who has he actually directly killed? No one.

As for good guys being bad...well I've made my beef about that as well. Kubo randomly throws in morally ambiguous freaks like Mayuri and Kenpachi and has Soul Society do some damn dickish things for pretty much no reason. All the black that Kubo tries to shove on Soul Society really just feels forced, as if he trying to make them look grey but fails miserably. And all the antagonists that Kubo makes sympathetic still don't really justify the position they actually take. in the end even if it's not completely Black and White. You can still distinguish the lighter grey from the darker grey very very easily.
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Old 2011-09-29, 03:45   Link #44
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Tousen exploded mid-sentence. I think Aizen did it since Komamura yelled at him right then.
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Old 2011-09-29, 04:42   Link #45
ronin myael
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So it seems kubo is continuing his practice of giving most of his villains backstory only when they are about to die. Dirty boots chick played it subtle, while Yukio's served mainly to make him out to be a prick.
you took the words out of my mouth! this is getting old. i don't feel any sympathy towards the chick or any of the fullbringers. i guess i used up all my sympathy for the likes of ulquiorra and grimmjow. i do hope ginjou or tsukishima would prove to be more of a challenge.

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why are you guys complaining that the fights are too long? atleast we're not getting flash backs of all their pasts for 2 chapters like naruto....
you have a point. but at least the naruto fights are a little more interesting.

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Personally I really wish there's no more Aizen (though I'm sure he will show up next arc) I find him to be a boring and overdone character and I believe Kubo can do much better than him for a final big boss. But then again that's just my opinion.
i wouldn't say he's boring, it's just that he's over-sensationalized and far too vain and mysterious. kubo never bothered to provide us with a backstory. we don't even know what he was like before he became a shinigami or why he turned out to be such a sociopath. not to mention he seems to be obsessed in just one thing, power. very typical of a shonen villain. in my opinion, the greatest villains are the ones that are so hateful you'd want a shot at them yourself. multi-dimensional villains whose motivations don't necessarily arise from gaining power or becoming god-like. to me aizen is not a villain you could loathe, i actually think he's kinda cool if he wasn't so vain, and i understand why he gained some following. but i'd rather not see him in this arc either. or if he indeed makes an appearance i hope it wouldn't be as the main baddie. i have yet to see a great villain in this series and if kubo could give us one, then perhaps it would be his ultimate saving grace as a manga writer.
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Old 2011-09-29, 05:07   Link #46
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
but at least the naruto fights are a little more interesting.
Subjective :|
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Old 2011-09-29, 05:10   Link #47
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Subjective :|
who said it wasn't? it's my opinion so it's definitely subjective.
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Old 2011-09-29, 06:06   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post

how could you not embed the song?!

It's better with the music
I wanted to embed the YouTube video, but I believe AS disabled that and simply linking to the song wasn't as great to me.


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i dont kno why i read it
guilty pleasure
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Old 2011-09-29, 07:14   Link #49
Langus
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I liked Gin, but I wouldn't consider him to be a protagonist worthy of salvation for lack of a better term.

While it's true that he had secretly opposed the main antagonist the entire time, that alone didn't necessarily make him one of the good guys IMHO. The methods he used and the things he was willing to do all for the sake of revenge were always going to prevent him from being completely excused or absolved for his actions.

Hell, even after learning of the only way to counter Aizen's trademark technique, what did he choose to do? He kept the secret to himself and sought suspense in watching the captains struggle to take him on without that info.

Then there's the act of murder of an unknown number of shinigami he's responsible for (when he was younger) as a result of his fake partnership on top of numerous other crimes he's likely committed for the sake of staying by Aizen's side. He also never showed any signs of remorse for the things he did while trying to achieve his goal.

So yeah...as cool as Gin was, Kubo wasn't about to let him off the hook apparently. At best, he was more like the lesser of two evils. What's really too bad is that it seems Kubo didn't feel he could do anything more with Gin in the future. Because if he had any chance of surviving the war, it all rested on that possibility.
Gin is, to-date, one of the only characters in this entire series that I have found interesting exactly because his motives weren't altruistic. It's easy to condemn him for it, but consider it from his perspective - what reason did he have to do any of them a favour? His introduction to shinigami was watching them beat the shit out of his best friend. Once he became a soul reaper himself, he worked under Aizen who suffered from a serious case of meglomania and was arguably insane in his quest for power (there's no telling what he made him do during his VC years while on that quest, but you can't imagine it was good).

With the exception of Rangiku, who was his one and only friend, the rest of the shinigami in SS treated him like scum. Think back to Rukia's reaction towards him during her SS trial. Byakuya as well. You get the impression right from season 1 that no one in SS trusted him and they looked down on him. I think he was completely justified in letting them fend for themselves. When you've spent your entire life only knowing the worst mankind has to offer, where do you learn compassion?

In any case, whatever you may think of Gin's character, you have to admire his tenacity. Imagine the amount of patience it must have taken to pretend to be allied with someone you wanted to revenge kill for CENTURIES. He said it took decades before he learned the secret of his zanpakto, and not only that but he had to give up the one true friend he ever had to reach his goal.

What bothered me about how T.K. dealt with Gin wasn't that he didn't redeem him, it was that he didn't give those two a proper ending. They deserved one and he robbed them of it in favour of a flashy Ichigo/Aizen showdown that amounted to nothing. It was his once chance to inject some feeling into this manga, to make readers actually feel something for the characters and he let the ship sail. Stupid move IMO.
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Old 2011-09-29, 07:34   Link #50
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Hmm, the fights might be one sided, but they have two good things going on...first, they're fun because they contain total ass-whooping, and second they're short enough for that not to be a problem. Not interested in the FB's backstory though, if they just die like Giriko it would still be satisfying.
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Old 2011-09-29, 08:19   Link #51
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Kafriel
Hmm, the fights might be one sided, but they have two good things going on...first, they're fun because they contain total ass-whooping, and second they're short enough for that not to be a problem. Not interested in the FB's backstory though, if they just die like Giriko it would still be satisfying.
They're too one-sided for my tastes. But I think what this might be leading up to is all the fullbringers who had Ichigo's power split among them getting defeated so that Ginjou can reabsorb their powers making himself even stronger. Now that Yukio's defeated, there's a chance the remaining opponents (Riruka, Tsukishima and luck guy) survive because Yukio's powers made sure that no one could escape his game until one of the opponents was dead. But now, that shouldn't be the case.

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With the exception of Rangiku, who was his one and only friend, the rest of the shinigami in SS treated him like scum. Think back to Rukia's reaction towards him during her SS trial. Byakuya as well. You get the impression right from season 1 that no one in SS trusted him and they looked down on him. I think he was completely justified in letting them fend for themselves. When you've spent your entire life only knowing the worst mankind has to offer, where do you learn compassion?
Yeah, but Gin intentionally presented himself as untrustworthy and suspicious. He told Aizen he was a snake with no feelings which was the vibe he gave, intentionally, to Rukia. Granted, Gin probably put forward his worst behavior (like murdering a 3rd seat in cold blood while he was just an academy student) to gain favor with Aizen. But it's not like the other shinigami misjudged him or anything, Gin lead them to believe he was scum. And despite that, Kira still worshiped the ground he walked on, so Rangiku wasn't the only person who had good opinions of him.

While I understand Gin's motives and think he was a cool character. I think his actions are far from justified. Guy was obsessed with revenge to the point where there ceases to be much of anything sympathetic about it. Rangiku was beaten, but it's not like she died or anything. She didn't even get any scars. For that, Gin abandons her and dedicates his life to revenge against Aizen, becoming a traitor and by aiding Aizen, indirectly exposing Matsumoto to far greater trauma than what he initially intended to get revenge for. She literally got her abdomen tore out fighting Aizen's forces, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gin, as long he was able to get revenge.

After Aizen's defeat, there's no place for Gin among the good guys or bad guys. I suppose if Kubo wanted to give him a happy ending, he could've had him say goodbye to Matsumoto, slip into an undetectable gigai and escape into the living world.
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Old 2011-09-29, 09:01   Link #52
kitten320
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Hmm, the fights might be one sided, but they have two good things going on...first, they're fun because they contain total ass-whooping, and second they're short enough for that not to be a problem. Not interested in the FB's backstory though, if they just die like Giriko it would still be satisfying.
I call them long... and the reason is that we all already know that FB will get owned... so why the hell drag it and not just pwn them all in one chapter and finally move on!

This battles don't do a thing! Shinigamis don't even show any new moves! FB are a set of new characters about whom I don't care, Kubo didn't make them likeble at all. And if Kubo plans to kill them all and be forgotten then there is even less reason showing all those match ups seperately for 5 chapters! Just finish them off already!

Seriously, Kubo is the slowest person I have ever seen. I so hope his money cow will finally slim down! Maybe he will finally start to think then!

Besides I still didn't give up on idea that FB might still pull a trick and turn the tides as it usually happens.
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Old 2011-09-29, 16:16   Link #53
Taco Bell
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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Gin suffered the greatest injustice in bleach ever. He did more against Aizen then all the captains and vizards put together, yet he was the only guy who died against Aizen in all the winter war and no one even made a fuss. That's bullshit.
Lol yah gin dies to one slash. Yet ichigo lives after getting hurt by byakuya and aizen almost cutting him in half. Zaraki gets slashed multiple times, his throat slashed, and a hand stuffed in his chest and he lives! Go bleach logic!

Also about the chapter pretty boring again. More blah blah blah i'm powerful than they get one shot by the captain. Next week Ikaku one shots the other guy!
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Old 2011-09-29, 16:29   Link #54
felix
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I don't know what's more sad, the chapter or the fact Kubo is getting paid to write this crap.

Can someone calculate how many more chapters of this are left?

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Meh. I'll be skipping this one too. I'll go back to reading it once Kubo gets his head on straight and tosses Rukia back into the mix.
It's so sad that Ichigo is such a weak lead you need an entire cast of decent characters that could be lead to make up for the emptiness in the plot/story. Ah, if only he was integral to his beliefs, instead of so damn emo.

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It's just a very convenient way for even remotely sympathetic bad guys to get killed without the good guys ever having to bloody their hands. Something that's far too common in shonen.
Technically there is some blood there, since he didn't manage to save her even though she was right there.
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Old 2011-09-29, 16:56   Link #55
Kaze
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What would make me more than happy is finding out that (by chance) he might have re-hired assistants who are writing these chapters while Kubo is working on the next arc

(Wishful thinking, but it gets me through the horrors of the week)
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Old 2011-09-29, 17:13   Link #56
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Kubo seems to be trying to inject some depth to the antagonists these two past chapters with the hints of a sad backstory, but I feel it's a bit late to be introducing this kind of thing. It might have been moving if their backstories were hinted at or show earlier like when Ichigo first met the Fullbringers, but now it feels like a half-hearted attempt to develop characters who didn't have much depth.
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Old 2011-09-29, 19:45   Link #57
Excelion
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As stated in previous posts, the "sad backstory" approach is something Kubo has applied to almost every Espada. I even felt sorry for Barragan because Aizen essentially came into HM and took over. And Yammy because of his dog, lol.
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Old 2011-09-29, 19:59   Link #58
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Yeah I know the series has a precedent for this kind of thing and it's not uncommon for fiction in general to have more humanized villains, but I felt that, at least this time, it didn't work as well.
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Old 2011-09-29, 20:03   Link #59
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I've come to expect that approach from this series now if it's any villain we're supposed to care about, Giriko being the least popular FB in this case. Definitely doesn't work when Kubo's rushing the fights either. One page worth of backstory is pretty funny in retrospect during a second read. ie: Oh no, Yukio's an orphan! Aww, no one loved Jackie =(
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Old 2011-09-29, 20:18   Link #60
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Hitsugaya was COLD AS ICE in this chapter...

Making the little kid scream and wet his pants!
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