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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 37 47.44%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 27 34.62%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 10.26%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 5.13%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.28%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-10-02, 06:49   Link #121
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pessimistic_freak View Post
No need to because I have no interest in that. I've acheived my goal by simply pointing it out here, not on PM where nobody else would see it.
The point is that you can't post something like that here because it's again the rules of the forum. The topic is penguidrum, not whether I'm biased or not (which is a flawed argument anyway, since all opinions are subjective), so bear in mind that if you keep this up I will report you.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The idea is that just as the scorpion fed on smaller insects to live, so to could its own existence have served to extend the life of the weasel another day--thus giving meaning to the scorpion's life, and at the same time repaying the sacrifice of all of the scorpion's own prey up to that point.
And where do you see the parallel to Kanba? The scorpion didn't want his life to be wasted, to be meaningless, but Kanba couldn't care less whether his life has meaning or not; he just doesn't want to lose Himari, can't deal with it. Whereas the scorpion's sacrifice is motivated by a desire to be useful, so to speak, Kanba's sacrifices is motivated by fear, fear of losing what he holds dear. I just can't see the connection.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-10-02 at 07:13.
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Old 2011-10-02, 07:34   Link #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Whether he's Buddhist isn't the point. I just said he could only cope with his sister's death through a Christian mindset. This is not my opinion but what I read from literary articles about this particular novel. Whether they're wrong or not, I do not know, but after reading the novel myself, I tend to agree with this assessment. Then again, I'm sure all this can be interpreted from a Buddhist perspective too.
Read your post please. You said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You see, Miyazawa wrote this novel to get over the death of his sister, whom he loved deeply. The only way for him to overcome his grief, was to see his sister's death through Christian lenses, believing there was a higher purpose to her death, that it was a form of self-sacrifice. That's why he puts so much value on altruism, the sacrifice motivated not by personal attachments, but rather by your willingness to devote yourself to others.
where you clearly implied that he needed to see his sister's death through Christian lenses which isn't true for Miyazawa. He didn't need to see his sister's death through a Christian mindset; he was a Buddhist and actually got over his sister's death using the Buddhist faith.

However, I have no qualms accepting that religions etc. are more similar than different in their message to humanity etc. and I have no issues accepting that self-sacrifice is an admirable virtue played up by most religions in the world. I don't like that western writers tend to use the word Christian to talk about virtuous though and find it unfunny when they apply that to describe the intents of someone who actually doesn't follow the Christian faith. I have met some people, intelligent, scholarly people, who seriously think Christians are the only virtuous people around.
You could probably tell that I am not a Christian but I am not a Buddhist either (a cultural Christian now and raised as a cultural Buddhist though) and I see no reason why the former should be used as an adjective to describe something the latter holds higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The novel was demanding from my own perspective. Whether it applies to anyone else is irrelevant, since it was an off-comment with not particular relation the point I was trying to illustrate.
I only replied to the part where you said it was demanding on humans as a general. No personal offense meant (don't think you took any anyway) and I don't disagree completely either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You misunderstood. Whether is a stranger is not the point. But there is a difference between self-sacrifice out of personal love and self-sacrifice motivated by a sense of general love for all things, and I think the novel is aware of this difference: note that Campanella doesn't sacrifice himself for just anyone, but for the worst person he knows. Likewise, the red scorpion entertains the idea of sacrificing for the sake of the weasel, his natural enemy. If you think this means nothing, more power to you, but I just don't agree with that.

Now that I think about it, this is pretty much one of the main themes in Madoka (specially shown in the confrontation between Homura's and Madoka's world views).

Now let's go deeper on this vein. Campanella is clearly a Madoka-like character. Like Madoka, he would sacrifice himself for the general well being of the world. Kanba, from Penguindrum, looks to me like a Homura-like character. He would gleefully let the world burn for the sake of his sister, I think. Ikuhara is entitled to his opinion, of course, but I definitely think drawing a parallel between Campanella and Kanba is only possible on a superficial level. The nature of their particular world views and their sacrifices are totally different and even opposite IMO.
I didn't misunderstand.
I see full well why you'd think they are different and I don't disagree. There is a big difference between selfless self-sacrifice and motivated self-sacrifice. However, I disagree in as much with the implication you made that what Kanba is doing isn't self-sacrifice or that it is invalidated as an act of higher purpose. Because it is self-sacrifice and it still serves a higher purpose. The world is but ephemeral and worldly relationships matter not. What matters really is that someone can sacrifice what should be most valuable to them so long as they are attached to this world to save another. Who the another happens to be doesn't matter. And trying to save your sister is an amiable action, one that definitely counts as a higher purpose regardless of the motivations behind it. Whether or not Kanba feels incestuous drives for his sister or if or not he would burn the world to save her doesn't take away from the fact that him dying for her is an act of self-sacrifice and an admirable purpose - so long as you keep the fact that she's actually already dead away anyway.

But yes, I completely agree in that what Kanba would burn the world to save his sister and he is ultimately headed towards disaster thanks to an almost fanatical obsession with his (already dead) sister. In a sense, he needs to get over her death much like Miyazawa did. Oh and I am pretty sure Ikuhara's intentions aren't to draw parallels between Campanella and Kanba but rather to contrast them. Kanba is a foil to Campanella. What he is doing is admirable but ultimately misguided and even regressive and harmful to those around him and himself.
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Old 2011-10-02, 07:48   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The point is that you can't post something like that here because it's again the rules of the forum. The topic is penguidrum, not whether I'm biased or not (which is a flawed argument anyway, since all opinions are subjective), so bear in mind that if you keep this up I will report you.
*sigh* I don't really understand why you cut off my message when I said "I have no intention of going further" and decided to intimidate me. With the same logic of yours in your previous post, you can tell me that by PM me, right?

And whether you are biased or not, it's not entirely irrelevant in here because this is a discussion board. If you are being biased, there might be no point in trying to discuss regardless of whatever reason because you would bend to your own mindset anyway by citing up "other" pieces of literature which might or might not apply to Penguindrum. I'm not saying your opinion is bad. I'm not saying hating Kanba is bad. I just want to tell others that they might consider not to take your argument too seriously if that's the case. And now I'm so confused why you would be so alarmed in trying to stop me.

I will not say anything more on this subject because yeah, it's irrelevant to the topic and against the rule so let's end this here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And where do you see the parallel to Kanba? The scorpion didn't want his life to be wasted, to be meaningless, but Kanba couldn't care less whether his life has meaning or not; he just doesn't want to lose Himari, can't deal with it. Whereas the scorpion's sacrifice is motivated by a desire to be useful, so to speak, Kanba's sacrifices is motivated by fear, fear of losing what he holds dear. I just can't see the connection.
Perhaps the Princess's quote "A scorpion's soul burning bright red" ?
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Old 2011-10-02, 08:07   Link #124
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Maybe Ringo is the Scorpion and.... nah Ringo has been far from sacrificial, but then there's the OP where ringo burns out then vanishes.

And the apple that bunny commander was holding, that bottle symbolizes a drug, probably heroin or poison which means Himari died from arson or the hospital employes are suspect to any wrongdoing.
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Old 2011-10-02, 08:08   Link #125
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Originally Posted by pessimistic_freak View Post
I'm not saying your opinion is bad. I'm not saying hating Kanba is bad. I just want to tell others that they might consider not to take your argument too seriously if that's the case.
All opinions are subjective. This is true for me as much as for everyone else. Everyone here knows this, and understands it's not an issue. Only you see it as a problem, but I think it's because you're misunderstanding what being biased really means.

Anyway, let's assume I do hate Kanba (even though I don't really) and I'm biased. If that's true then it also true that you, who likes Kanba, are also biased, just the other way around.

But you know, the true is that everyone is biased someway or another, because everyone's opinion is colored by their own cultural baggage and personal experiences. It's not an issue because it's the same for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
But yes, I completely agree in that what Kanba would burn the world to save his sister and he is ultimately headed towards disaster thanks to an almost fanatical obsession with his (already dead) sister. In a sense, he needs to get over her death much like Miyazawa did. Oh and I am pretty sure Ikuhara's intentions aren't to draw parallels between Campanella and Kanba but rather to contrast them. Kanba is a foil to Campanella. What he is doing is admirable but ultimately misguided and even regressive and harmful to those around him and himself.
Well, this is pretty much the core of my argument, so if you agree with this I think the discussion is settled.
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Old 2011-10-02, 08:34   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
All opinions are subjective. This is true for me as much as for everyone else. Everyone here knows this, and understands it's not an issue. Only you see it as a problem, but I think it's because you're misunderstanding what being biased really means.

Anyway, let's assume I do hate Kanba (even though I don't really) and I'm biased. If that's true then it also true that you, who likes Kanba, are also biased, just the other way around.

But you know, the true is that everyone is biased someway or another, because everyone's opinion is colored by their own cultural baggage and personal experiences. It's not an issue because it's the same for everyone.
Fair enough. But you will not see me going around praising him blindly as I often saw you did the opposite. While I think Kanba's sacrifice is admirable enough, I know that his obsession with his sister will be destructive to both himself and the world around him. And that is not a good thing.
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Old 2011-10-02, 08:51   Link #127
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by pessimistic_freak View Post
Fair enough. But you will not see me going around praising him blindly as I often saw you did the opposite.
Look, Kanba is a fictional element you know, so if I criticize him what I'm really criticising is the writer, not the character per se. Sorry if you think some of my comments seem too negative, but I never write anything blindly.

That said, let's just stop this off-topic thing right here. You don't need to reply either.
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Old 2011-10-02, 18:41   Link #128
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And where do you see the parallel to Kanba? The scorpion didn't want his life to be wasted, to be meaningless, but Kanba couldn't care less whether his life has meaning or not; he just doesn't want to lose Himari, can't deal with it. Whereas the scorpion's sacrifice is motivated by a desire to be useful, so to speak, Kanba's sacrifices is motivated by fear, fear of losing what he holds dear. I just can't see the connection.
The scorpion was also motivated by fear of losing what it held dear, i.e. its own life, which was why it jumped into the well. What makes Kanba and the scorpion the same is their fundamental awareness of mortality: Death is suffering, and because Kanba and the scorpion know that they are mortal, they understand suffering. The scorpion's desire to have been fed to the weasel, as well as Kanba's desire to trade his life for Himari's, are reflective of their penultimate desires to alleviate the suffering of someone else.

In other words, no, the scorpion's primary feeling was not one of not wanting its life to be meaningless, or to have been useful. That is a human moral interpretation based on our perspective of the scorpion's role in the chain of causality. We rationalize "because the scorpion fed on others, its life will be given meaning if it passes itself on as sustenance and prey", i.e. returns its karma. The scorpion's genuine feelings, however, were actually motivated by empathy: for the weasel who would go hungry, just as Kanba is motivated by empathy for Himari who has/would have/will die.

After all, it is not like the scorpion's desire to sacrifice itself would've naturally achieved anything. It's "natural fate" was to have drowned in the well, just as Kanba's desire to save Himari would normally be considered meaningless, as "too little, too late". It is only the mercy of the goddess which took the scorpion's desire for self-sacrifice and transformed it into an ever-burning flame. Before that point, in their altruism, and in their mortal suffering, Kanba and the scorpion can be seen to be exactly the same.

Thus the existence of the "red scorpion's flame" is a miracle, which in the universal fate of humanity generally does not exist. The allusion to the red scorpion as a parallel to Kanba in Ikuhara's work makes no judgements on his correctness or morality aside from "deserving of the goddess' mercy, a pure and misfortunate soul".
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Old 2011-10-03, 02:31   Link #129
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If you're going to discuss Buddhism vs. Christianity as regards "Night on the Galactic Railroad", much less specifically as it relates to Campanella and Kanba, read the book or at least see the movie. This topic is a very complicated one as relates to Miyazawa. I think there are strong Christian and Buddhist themes as play in the book, and if anything, I think Miyazawa's emergent philosophy is something like a pastiche of both.

On reflection, I tend to agree with Kazu that Campanella (and the scorpion's) actions in "Railroad" are almost diametrically opposed to Kanba's in episode 12. The former are classic Buddhist ideals, whereas what Kanba did is in some ways about as "un-Buddhist" as you can get. It's fundamentally selfish even if it is a sacrifice, but even more importantly, it represents pain and suffering due to attachment to the material. Buddhists spend lifetimes studying and meditating to try and lose the attachment to the physical body - Kanba is obsessed with keeping Himari in her's.
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Old 2011-10-03, 04:42   Link #130
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If you're going to discuss Buddhism vs. Christianity as regards "Night on the Galactic Railroad", much less specifically as it relates to Campanella and Kanba, read the book or at least see the movie. This topic is a very complicated one as relates to Miyazawa. I think there are strong Christian and Buddhist themes as play in the book, and if anything, I think Miyazawa's emergent philosophy is something like a pastiche of both.
I think Night on the Galactic Railroad can be very comfortably interpreted within a Buddhist framework alone. As you point out below, there's no need to turn to a Christian interpretation of Night on the Galactic Railroad to point out the areas where Kanba's actions differ from the general picture of Buddhist philosophy.

Quote:
On reflection, I tend to agree with Kazu that Campanella (and the scorpion's) actions in "Railroad" are almost diametrically opposed to Kanba's in episode 12. The former are classic Buddhist ideals, whereas what Kanba did is in some ways about as "un-Buddhist" as you can get. It's fundamentally selfish even if it is a sacrifice, but even more importantly, it represents pain and suffering due to attachment to the material. Buddhists spend lifetimes studying and meditating to try and lose the attachment to the physical body - Kanba is obsessed with keeping Himari in her's.
Buddhism as the path towards "escaping mortal suffering through enlightenment and transcending the material world" is an intellectual, self-(or rather: neutrally outward) focused exercise. That mysticism accepts death and suffering as a natural part of the world--perceives the interconnections of causality that death/suffering was borne from and will cause--and is unattached to anything. This form of Buddhism takes on an observational role, separates the observer out from the mortal world, and has nothing to do with the active practice of altruism.

Campanella and the scorpion are no more transcendentally Buddhist than Kanba is. In saving, or desiring to save, another creature's life altruistically, they were acting out the materially/mortally bound Buddhist mission of compassion/empathy. And that is somewhere one can definitely make comparisons of the parallels between Kanba and the scorpion.

Kanba's empathy is specifically focused on Himari, true. But this has nothing at all to do with selfishness. After all, Himari's life is ending meaninglessly, being wasted. After all, Kanba himself is willing to trade his life for Himari's happiness. That Kanba sacrificed others, had not previously shown empathy is of no significance--the scorpion, too, had fed upon others. But in trading his life for her, would Kanba's life have served any less noble a cause than the rescue of a stranger? In disappearing from this world, would Kanba's death have amounted to any less of a loss than Campanella's sacrifice?

Kanba's willingness to do so is his equivocation with the red scorpion. His pain in this episode was the equivalent of the scorpion's mortal suffering as it lay drowning. His heart to sacrifice himself is the burning red flame the scorpion was transformed into. The one thing he was lacking is a goddess of enlightenment. Neither Campanella, nor Kanba, nor the scorpion were ever a Buddha. But they were each pure in giving themselves over to self-sacrifice.
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Old 2011-10-03, 06:17   Link #131
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If you're going to discuss Buddhism vs. Christianity as regards "Night on the Galactic Railroad", much less specifically as it relates to Campanella and Kanba, read the book or at least see the movie. This topic is a very complicated one as relates to Miyazawa. I think there are strong Christian and Buddhist themes as play in the book, and if anything, I think Miyazawa's emergent philosophy is something like a pastiche of both.
I agree, well I kind of got the impression that Miyazawa was looking at how different religions view death and incorporating them into the story but I don't think he chose one at all with the whole "true heaven" ending.
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Old 2011-10-03, 10:41   Link #132
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@Sol Falling.
I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
After all, Himari's life is ending meaninglessly, being wasted.
First you don't know if the ending of Himari's life is meaningless. In fact, if her death is truly a retribution/punishment for her father's sin, her death is not meaningless. And Kanba knows this, I think. That's why in the preview he refuses to believe Himari's death is such punishment.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
After all, Kanba himself is willing to trade his life for Himari's happiness.
You don't know this either. Is Kanba doing this for Himari's happiness? Does he even know what would make her happy? Don't you think he might be doing this for the sake of his own happiness, regardless of whatever she wants?

I'm not just playing devil advocate here, but lines like this are somewhat telling:

Kanba: "Himari always cared for us. I can't lose her. She's the world to me."

So, why is Kanba trying to keep Himari alive? Because he's thinking of Himari's happiness, like you said, or because he would be unhappy without her? Whose happiness is he really trying to preserve?

Bottom line, we don't know any of this. We don't know the PoC's ultimate goal, we don't know what Himari herself really wants, and we certainly don't know if what Kanba is doing is as selfless an act as you think it is.
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Old 2011-10-03, 11:43   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
@Sol Falling.
I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

First you don't know if the ending of Himari's life is meaningless. In fact, if her death is truly a retribution/punishment for her father's sin, her death is not meaningless. And Kanba knows this, I think. That's why in the preview he refuses to believe Himari's death is such punishment.
Punishment != a life having had a purpose. If Himari dies now, her existence will have never amounted to anything. Just the same as the scorpion after having jumped into the well--a waste of all the sacrifices that had been previously made for her. The punishment is itself the very fact that Himari's death is meaningless. That is why, in wishing he could trade Himari's sacrifice in place of his own, Kanba is wishing he could give Himari's life a chance at meaning.

Quote:
You don't know this either. Is Kanba doing this for Himari's happiness? Does he even know what would make her happy? Don't you think he might be doing this for the sake of his own happiness, regardless of whatever she wants?

I'm not just playing devil advocate here, but lines like this are somewhat telling:

Kanba: "Himari always cared for us. I can't lose her. She's the world to me."

So, why is Kanba trying to keep Himari alive? Because he's thinking of Himari's happiness, like you said, or because he would be unhappy without her? Whose happiness is he really trying to preserve?
Here's a better question: how do you preserve your own happiness if you are dead? Kanba is willing to trade his own life for Himari's, as far as completely taking the place of her. That in itself makes it clear that Kanba is acting out of compassion/empathy rather than selfishness.

Quote:
Bottom line, we don't know any of this. We don't know the PoC's ultimate goal, we don't know what Himari herself really wants, and we certainly don't know if what Kanba is doing is as selfless an act as you think it is.
What we do know is that what Himari/the PoC don't want is to die. And we know that Kanba wants to take the place of her. This is enough to easily accept Kanba's mortal suffering as an allusion to the red scorpion.
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Old 2011-10-03, 12:08   Link #134
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Sorry, but I don't see even a liberal interpretation of events showing Kanba is "pure in giving himself over to self-sacrifice". Pure is not a word I would associate with much of what happens in this anime, but unless your goal is to start an argument just for the fun of it (we've certainly had enough of that on this board already) it's hard to overlook the selfish side of what Kanba is doing. He's driven by love, sure, but also by lust and you can't ignore the fact that trying to subvert death is about as anathema to Buddhist principles as you can get.

No one is saying that Campanella or the scorpion have achieved enlightenment and become Buddhas - at least I'm not. But there's a big gap between that and what Kanba is doing, and to call their actions analogous to Kanba's is a pretty creative reading of events, to say the least.
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Old 2011-10-03, 12:53   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Punishment != a life having had a purpose.
Why not? Why being the payment to whatever her father did can't be the purpose of her life? For all we know she might have been born specifically to fulfill this role.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Here's a better question: how do you preserve your own happiness if you are dead?
Because Kanba's happiness is Himari ("she's the world to me", he said). He doesn't care about his own life, but if Himari dies he would be unhappy. He can't deal with that, so regardless of what Himari really wants, he will do everything he can to keep her alive. All this seems more about himself that about Himari IMO.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What we do know is that what Himari/the PoC don't want is to die. And we know that Kanba wants to take the place of her.
Really? Do we really know the PoC wants the penguindrum because she doesn't want to die? Sorry, but that's jumping to conclusions. According to her, the penguindrum can derail faith, but this doesn't mean she wants to change hers. She might want it for the sake of someone else, who knows? At this point that's pretty much in the air.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is enough to easily accept Kanba's mortal suffering as an allusion to the red scorpion.
And since we don't even know that, the allusion is baseless IMO.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-10-03 at 14:59.
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Old 2011-10-03, 13:26   Link #136
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Sorry, but I don't see even a liberal interpretation of events showing Kanba is "pure in giving himself over to self-sacrifice". Pure is not a word I would associate with much of what happens in this anime, but unless your goal is to start an argument just for the fun of it (we've certainly had enough of that on this board already) it's hard to overlook the selfish side of what Kanba is doing. He's driven by love, sure, but also by lust and you can't ignore the fact that trying to subvert death is about as anathema to Buddhist principles as you can get.
The role of lust in Kanba's motivations as regards Himari is highly ambiguous at this point in the story. We've got basically one scene in the opening episode after Himari first took his soul from him. The rest of the show has seemed to have portrayed how far Kanba would go for her, and how much she means to him, even in a non-sexual context.

I still cannot see how lust or sex can have any role to play in the wish to die in place of another person.

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No one is saying that Campanella or the scorpion have achieved enlightenment and become Buddhas - at least I'm not. But there's a big gap between that and what Kanba is doing, and to call their actions analogous to Kanba's is a pretty creative reading of events, to say the least.
If you agree that the transcendent aspect of Buddhism--the acceptance of suffering in all its forms, the unfettered detachment from all material things, the departure from the mortal world and attainment of immortality--are not the point of Railroad or the tale of the red scorpion then there should be no issue in ascribing to Kanba's spirit of self-sacrifice the adjective of "purity". The awareness that one life comes at the cost of countless others is one of the hearts of Buddhism. There is thus no element of "trying to subvert death" in Kanba showing that he would die for the sake of Himari. That demonstrates, instead, an acceptance of his life's role in this world, as one link in a chain of sacrifices passing into the future. "Purity" implies in no sense the "Buddhist principles" of human morality but rather the natural empathy of animals, which are as technically far from being "enlightened" as you can get.

Compassion is the doing of Buddhism. Enlightenment is the knowing. The very point of using animals in Buddhist parables, is to show that you need not have the latter to express the former.
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Old 2011-10-03, 14:18   Link #137
YayPepsi
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I don't see how his self sacrifice is selfish just because he loved her. If someone sacrificed their life for me, the last thing on my mind would be "wow, that person loved me so they died for me. How selfish."

I doubt Kanba's thoughts on the matter were solely "I would be unhappy without her, so she has to live so I can be happy." That would be a moot point anyway - if Himari were to live at the cost of Kanba's life, he would be dead. He wouldn't be experiencing happiness because again, he would be dead.

I think a motive for most people trying to save a loved one at the cost of their own life is more along the lines of "I don't want this person who I love to suffer through dying." In Himari's case, she's a sweet girl who is dying so young and Kanba loves her and doesn't want her to go through that. Is a parent selfish for wanting to save their child at the cost of their own life, just because their child is the world to them and they love them? Would the parent be considered selfish even if the child begged them not to die to save the child's life? The parent only wants the best for the child (in this case, to live and grow up), even if their child doesn't want to receive it. Would the fact that they would be happy if their child lived and miserable if they died negate any selflessness of the act? I don't think so, I don't think their sacrifice would be selfish, even if they would gain some happiness out of it. And I don't think that Kanba's decision is selfish at all.

Quote:
The role of lust in Kanba's motivations as regards Himari is highly ambiguous at this point in the story. We've got basically one scene in the opening episode after Himari first took his soul from him. The rest of the show has seemed to have portrayed how far Kanba would go for her, and how much she means to him, even in a non-sexual context.
Besides that kiss in the first episode, I think Kanba goes out of his way not to show his feelings for Himari. I don't think he would ever act on his feelings for her unless she tried to pursue a relationship with him herself. And even then, it's iffy whether he would go along with it or not.
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Old 2011-10-03, 15:16   Link #138
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YayPepsi View Post
I think a motive for most people trying to save a loved one at the cost of their own life is more along the lines of "I don't want this person who I love to suffer through dying."
I have my own ideas about self-sacrifice too, but I don't think this is relevant to the discussion IMO. The point isn't to make a value judgement on Kanba, he's just a character. We're just trying to figure out how the series portrays him here. Is his sacrifice shown in a positive light, or is it portrayed as the seed of his own undoing? We're discussing this because we're trying to guess where the series is going from here on.

On that note, the allusion to the red scorpion is indeed an attempt to show Kanba's sacrifice in a good light (even though I think the allusion is misguided!), but the obvious sexual references, and the fact that Shouma utters the world "taboo" just when the PoC is penetrating Kanba's body say otherwise. There's also the fact that Kanba is clearly shown as someone obsessed, not just in love, and unable to cope with Himari's death (and let's not forget that Himari IS already dead).

All in all, I said there's a great deal of ambiguity here.

EDIT: I think things are going to become more clear when/if Kanba begins to hurt other people for Himari's sake.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-10-03 at 15:28.
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Old 2011-10-03, 17:10   Link #139
YayPepsi
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I agree that if Kanba does start harming other people to bring back Himari, that will be selfish. Sacrificing an innocent party for your desire to save someone is different than sacrificing yourself.

I think there may be some falling out with Ringo in the next episode, over the fact that she gave up the diary after Kanba told her not to. Which could lead to conflict with Shouma. Of course, it depends on what Sanetoshi has to say to Kanba first.
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Old 2011-10-03, 17:20   Link #140
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by YayPepsi View Post
I agree that if Kanba does start harming other people to bring back Himari, that will be selfish.
I didn't say that. For me he's already selfish. I just think If he hurts other people it would be more clear to see where they story is going with him. As of now everything he does is portrayed so ambiguous...
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