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Old 2012-04-18, 13:31   Link #121
Klashikari
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It only grants 11 lives, so Herakles maximum live stock is 12, including his very own.
Archer killed him 5 times in the anime, 6 times in the VN.
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Old 2012-04-18, 13:46   Link #122
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He should've been able to kill him more times really, but there's a time limit on UBW and he has his magic supply to think about. But suppose that he has enough mana to even unleash one complete Excalibur Berserker would've been blown to bits from the beginning, twelve lives or not (since the first fake Excalibur Shirou created in the Fate Route actually killed off seven lives with one hit). Granted, it was probably the second best projection he could ever create in his life and after (Avalon the first).

The woes of being summoned as a Servant by the Holy Grail instead of the Cleaner of Nasuverse.
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Old 2012-04-18, 13:50   Link #123
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It isn't even Excalibur, it is Caliburn, which is of an even lower Rank (probably around A rank or A+ after the projection).
The only possibility for both Shirou and Saber to defeat Herakles in that fashion was probably due to his wounds he received against Archer.

That being, it is probably to balance out Shirou and Saber weak states, so no wonder why Herakles -never- mentions his wounds when he explained he was killed 7 times. Usual issue with Nasu being prone to shift conditions and stats on the fly without keeping enough concistency.

Anyway, after checking Lancelot stats, it is pretty clear he would be able to nuke like 10-12 lives, should he drew Arondight right from the get go (even with kariya as his master while being Berserker. Other cirmcunstances would lead to a better result), but that's supposing Lancelot isn't beaten to death first, so again all about circumstances, timing and whatever gimmicks Nasu throw in there.
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Old 2012-04-18, 13:53   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
He should've been able to kill him more times really, but there's a time limit on UBW
It's unlikely he even used UBW against Berserker. He definitely would've done a lot worse to him if he had. Just because the anime shows him use it doesn't mean he did.
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Old 2012-04-18, 13:54   Link #125
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Why wouldn't he use UBW if he's trying to take down Berserker?
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Old 2012-04-18, 14:00   Link #126
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Who knows? Archer is quite a troll at times. But there's nothing that implies whether he does or not, so one cannot assume he does.
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Old 2012-04-18, 15:06   Link #127
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In which case, the argument is rather pointless. -_-" Let's stop at there.

And I don't think Hercules is weakened really, but again, as pointless as the argument above so I won't say anything.

What I do want to point out however, is that Hercules has a rather glaring weakness. Remember how Shirou killed him in Heaven Feel route? It means that as long as you can kill him twelve times in a row, aiming at different critical areas, before he recovers those injuries and become immune to the same weapon and strength, even a human (with a little supernatural help lawl) can kill him.

But then again, it doesn't mean that a Servant can beat Hercules. In fact every Servant in Zero or Stay/Night would lose to Berserker in a hand-to-hand combat. That he becomes stronger with every life he loses, and that he can heal back his lost life makes him even more ridiculous; theoretically speaking you just need to let Berserker eat every Noble Phantasm without dying and he'll become utterly invincible. If his Master wasn't Ilya and has half of Rin's intelligence and resolution there's no way Berserker would lose.

Well, except for those OP Noble Phantasms of course, Excalibur or Ea or Belphone or Alexander's IforgotthenamebutTHOUSANDSERVANTSYES etc etc. Hercules has a I-win-all body as a servant, but his Noble Phantasm has no offensive power and suck balls if people can one shot you despite having twelve lives. >_>
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Old 2012-04-18, 15:34   Link #128
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Uhh... It seems Heracles' main disadvantage is that he was summoned as a Berserker. If he was any other class, he could use his best weapon of Nine Lives, which is what Shirou used to kill him in Heaven's Feel. Even if it was Ilya, it wouldn't matter because Heracles is pretty overpowered heh.
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Old 2012-04-18, 15:43   Link #129
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Actually I made a mistake there, what I meant was if Ilya had half a heart to actually win the Holy Grail - a terrible irony really - or have even a tiny bit of the common mages' dream Berserker could've been used better. She IS more intelligent and resolute than Rin. Biiig mistake there.
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Old 2012-04-18, 15:56   Link #130
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I wonder what Lancelot (as a Berserker) would have been like with Illya as a Master. He'd have way more reserves for anything he could pull off. He'd likely still counter Gil and probably Archer. He can counter Saber. Lancer probably isn't that much of a worry (this being Fate and Lancers having bad Luck) Which leaves Rider, Caster, and Assassin (both).

Though one wonders what class Lancelot would have been a better servant under.

He seems to do fine as a Berserker. While they say Berserkers are hard on their Masters, Illya had no problems with Herc, and he seems like he'd be a problem Mad.
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Old 2012-04-18, 16:00   Link #131
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Not sure how FSN spoilers are handled in this thread, so I'll tag it just in case in regards to Berserkers being tough on their masters:

Spoiler for Ilya as a Berserker Master:
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Old 2012-04-18, 16:51   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Though one wonders what class Lancelot would have been a better servant under.
Either Saber or Berserker. Although his NP For Someone's Glory is nearly wasted as berserker.
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Old 2012-04-18, 17:47   Link #133
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It doesn't matter if the attack is a beam whatsoever. What matters however is the raw power of the NP or the attack.
Also, Caliburn even downranked by Shirou's tracing could destroy 7 of Herakles' lives.
Nope. The whole "kill 7 times in one hit" is probably a special ability of caliburn(and gram/merodach). Also an ass pull, but whatever...

Arondight isn't going to kill him several times in 1 hit. Just one. And then lancelot would have to kill herakles 12 times in 12 different ways without getting killed himself. The odds are kinda stacked against him...

as for aacha: he's stuck with either BPs or NPs that would be wielded with A rank STR and kill him in close combat. We already know that his chances are very low because he actually did fight herakles in fate and lost(after shaving off 6 lives). That's pretty much it.
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Old 2012-04-19, 05:31   Link #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
Nope. The whole "kill 7 times in one hit" is probably a special ability of caliburn(and gram/merodach). Also an ass pull, but whatever...
I will have to ask you to provide evidence regarding this then. Really, Caliburn was never mentioned as having any special skill in the few text I could find (likewise, Merodach didn't get any specific mention, aside of being pulled once from GoB).

Again, all description within the game never implied there is a skill behind it, as everything points out as "one hit". And while Shirou could definitely activate NLW as a NP/Skill, he and Saber swinged traced caliburn like a standard weapon. There wasn't any intention or attempt to kill him multiple times, but really defeat him right on the spot in desperate moment. Nowhere anything like "dealing several fatal blows in one shot etc).

Regarding Archer: no, you don't need a A stats to inflict damage with a weapon, if that one is a A rank NP. There is no way for Emiya to have a A str stats to begin with, so everything came to multiplying the number of traced weapons that can reach A, mainly BP.
A rank str/mana would incur in attacks (similar to Rin's combined efforts with her jewels), just like how Nasu explained that caster would be able to take down Herakles only a few times, before GH register her spells as "learned", thanks to her A rank mana stat (which has nothing to do with her NP).
Which means that a single servant can kill Herakles several times if he has A rank stats with different attacks, and further chances if his NP is A rank. But you don't need both to kill him at least once: NP alone or stat alone will do. Having both just cumulate the possibilites.
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Old 2012-04-19, 06:42   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I will have to ask you to provide evidence regarding this then. Really, Caliburn was never mentioned as having any special skill in the few text I could find (likewise, Merodach didn't get any specific mention, aside of being pulled once from GoB).
"evidence"(it's not really evidence, just interpretation) is how caliburn apparently explodes light inside herakles's body when it kills him 7 times over. Gram does something similar in Fate when Gil uses it

that, plus plain old and simple logic


Quote:
Regarding Archer
we're saying the same thing

Quote:
There is no way for Emiya to have a A str stats to begin with, so everything came to multiplying the number of traced weapons that can reach A, only BP.
fixed
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Old 2012-04-19, 14:08   Link #136
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Except that, again, it is a single flash of light: it was never described as exploding into several beams. Even Excalibur in-game description involves a focused beam of light, not a cluster of beams.
All the narrative description converge to a single flash and single blow. Also, regarding light itself, logic would actually dictate it would be a single beam, due to the general description and also various versions of excalibur being animated as a single beam.

As for archer, I put emphasis to the fact Rank of the stats and Rank of the NP are 2 different matter that can be used seperately, to which you seemed to combine both (due to the "either BPs or NPs that would be wielded with A rank STR" despite the stats has no relevency to the effectiveness of the NP on Herakles).
And theorically, Archer can create a A rank NP without being a BP, just by the fact Shirou could trace Caliburn. Therefore, he can probably trace, albout with limits, Swords that are originally A+ / A++ / A+++ and keep them as A without turning them into BP.
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Old 2012-04-19, 14:23   Link #137
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If I recall how stats work, wouldn't even a C+ weapon be able to break through and hurt Berserker? The + indicates that it can momentarily double its power, right?
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Old 2012-04-19, 14:30   Link #138
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Actually no, the + and - portion are just the same as your grade system, as in: A+ > A > A- > B+ > B > B- > ...
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Old 2012-04-19, 14:36   Link #139
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Except that, again, it is a single flash of light: it was never described as exploding into several beams. Even Excalibur in-game description involves a focused beam of light, not a cluster of beams.
All the narrative description converge to a single flash and single blow. Also, regarding light itself, logic would actually dictate it would be a single beam, due to the general description and also various versions of excalibur being animated as a single beam.
never talked about multiple beams. My point is that caliburn does seem to be shooting a mini-excaliblast inside berserker when it kills him 7 times over which is what does the trick. And arondight can't do that

Quote:
to which you seemed to combine both
No, i was saying the same thing as you

Quote:
And theorically, Archer can create a A rank NP without being a BP, just by the fact Shirou could trace Caliburn. Therefore, he can probably trace, albout with limits, Swords that are originally A+ / A++ / A+++ and keep them as A without turning them into BP.
No, he can't. The only explanation for why caliburn was able to pierce GH is that shirou got saber's A rank STR with it. Also, saber wielding it and plot hax helped

@GDB: GH works against rank, not power. It's outright stated in the game: if lancelot got his hands on the tsar bomb and turned it into an NP with KOH and detonated it inside herakles's ass, it still wouldn't do a damn thing to him because it would be a D rank NP. Even if it's powerful enough to vaporize Japan...
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Old 2012-04-19, 14:42   Link #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
never talked about multiple beams. My point is that caliburn does seem to be shooting a mini-excaliblast inside berserker when it kills him 7 times over which is what does the trick. And arondight can't do that
Again, I don't get where you can draw the assumption that "simply because it is a beam, it can deal more than "1 life damage".
Arondight is the sister sword of Excalibur, to which is even -closer- to Excalibur than Caliburn itself, as Arondight was created by the Fairy of the Lake.

Quote:
No, he can't. The only explanation for why caliburn was able to pierce GH is that shirou got saber's A rank STR with it. Also, saber wielding it and plot hax helped
There is no way for Shirou to increase Saber stats. Shirou could only replenish so she can fight, instead of being a mop. At best, Saber is Rank B in Fate Route, and a Servant Rank is primarily based by the specs on their own and of their master. And for that matter, Shirou is a very bad master and can't enhance Saber a single bit (heck, saber had to use her own mana reserve from the get go until she manages to have the... "mana transfer").
That transfer alone doesn't allow her to suddenly became A Rank. Instead, it would rather prevent Saber to simply vanish.

Notice also that Herakles put a huge emphasis on the weapon when he was defeated.
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