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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 119 Rating
Perfect 10 11 16.92%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 17 26.15%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 30.77%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 10.77%
6 out of 10 : Average 6 9.23%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.54%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-10-25, 12:50   Link #921
Shiek927
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I don't know what to say -- except beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I turned to your described pages, because I really wanted to understand your critiques -- mind you, the hotel (because that's what it was) in chapter 19 was supposed to be a very fancy one (hence Noel/Sophia's, I forget which one, comment when they entered), over two simple residentual houses.

You're definitely, I can see, much more critical then I am -- while the houses in chapter 84 are plainer then the fancy hotel in Chapter 14, I don't see that as something to get in arms about; when I first read chapter 84, I thought it was breathtaking, especially all the shading and detail on Rubel and his clothing. *shrug, perhaps you've read other stories with better art, or maybe you're much more nitpicky on all the tiny details...

I'm looking at the big picture -- pre-timeskip and post-timeskip, their is a huge evolution, and while I love both for what they are, if I had to pick, the styling and detail on the latter chapters is what I prefer; their is simply a much vaster increase in details and all the little things that the pre-timeskip chapters didn't have (hence why I said they are like rough-drafts to me).

*shrug, I don't know what to say except this looks like another perception thing; not that the art has been perfect by any means (if i had to criticize one thing about recent chapters, is that Yagi recycles the same hairstyles and faces far too much), but I can't ignore the overall improvement.

And, on the subject of dropping the story, I wasn't saying 'you' so much as people in general -- for all our complaints, I don't think any of us will actually stop reading.
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Old 2011-10-25, 13:06   Link #922
MalakTawus
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@Elandyll

Quote:
Except that everything leads us to believe that Irene is dead (chapter 38, pg 28 - Even the framing with Clare is pretty much as literal as can be, without showing us Raf cutting her down). Nothing we have seen tends to let us think that Renee died.
Just no.Lune and Irene's situation is basically the same......to be more precise i'd say that it's even more probable that Irene is alive since the only thing that lead us to belive that she is dead is the feelings that Claire had on her arm,and it's not even clear what that could mean......ON THE CONTRARY,if you go reread the part where Riful comments on the destroyer,she pretty much implies that she was able to get Lune (and if she got Lune it means that Lune is 99,999% dead....).
So the truth is that you are claim that there is an objective difference in Lune and Irene's situation (in Lune's favour) when in reality you have absolutely no basis to say that.

Quote:
Old Yagi would have let Miria rest in peace, and then allowed the rest of the Claymore to think for themselves, letting Miria leave a legacy of rebellion vs the Org.
Ridicoulous. How can you say what "old Yagi"would have done ???
That's just what YOU think,not what he thinks, BIG DIFFERENCE,lol.
We don't know even how he intends to evolve the story,and considering that the whole huge rebellion is based on the fact that Miria survived,i'd say that you are speaking nonsense.
Old Yagi saved A LOT of times warrior that eveidently in his mind was useful for his continuation of the story,it's not that he always kiled warriors if he had the chance: Deneve and Helen are clear examples that even old Yagi had no problem in making "secondary" characters survive against all odds.

Quote:
As per Isley or Riful, to me they were jsut (interesting) bad guys to be eventually dispatched, so I don't see any "darkness" in their end (alicia and beth were so un-developed that they really were inconsequential imo).
Their deaths are objectively dark endings,just because you don't feel it,it means nothing.
It's full of dark situations in manga that have no effect on me because i don't care too much about the characters involved,but i don't go around saying that those situations are no dark just because i don't care for them,lol.
The dark theme in a manga is something objective,it's not a personal opinion,and people that don't understand that Isley's death (for example) is OBJECTIVELY a dark scene....well, sorry but they simply don't know what they are talking about.
You don't care a lot about those scene?Ok, every person cares for different things so there is nothing strange here....BUT this is a completely different matter!

Quote:
It's also pretty funny you would deem Hilda to be worthy of any consideration though, given how little she appeared at all (and Claire had to go through nearly the same thing btw in chapter 4 with Elena).
Ehm,Hilda appeared little,BUT her role is VERY important considering that she is Miria's motivation for her whole revenge (Hilda's figure is more or less like Teresa's figure for Claire),so yes her role is more important than warriors like Flora or Undine....but returning to the actual subject (darkness) it's 100% sure that Hilda's death is a scene A LOT more dark,cruel and sad than the deaths during Pieta (Jean excluded),so i don't see why i shouldn't list that scene,lol.

Quote:
The Art has pretty much gone to hell.

Look back at the first 5 volumes per example, and compare to the latest chapters.
WTH is happening at Yagi's studio? Not enough money to pay assistants to put some shades? Not enough time to put in the amount of details he used to?

It's fairly shocking imo, specially in the latest chapters
*Look at the art in the first 5 volumes*

*Look at the art post-Pieta*

Hmmmm.......are you sure we are talking about the same manga?
Degustibus......
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Old 2011-10-25, 13:18   Link #923
Nixl
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I would say Yagi's art has shifted at the least twice. It noticeably improved after after chapter 30-ish. The heads and arms proportions changed. The second I believed appeared after the Pieta arc. Just compare Teresa in the Teresa arc with her extra chapter and one can see large differences. I think most people have read Angel Denestu (spelling?) and call tell how far his character design has come.

Besides just faces and proportions, I think Yagi appears to be putting more emphasis on lips. From time to time you can see the characters have deep and shaded lips as though they have lipstick on. In addition, I think you can observe how Yagi is drawing hair is different with the new characters. That is hard to specify, but I'll try to explain it later.

Spoiler for Simplistic hair:

See the Simplistic hair on Claire and Cynthia at the bottom. They are essentially straight lines. The same can be said about all of his past characters. He used straight, easy lines for hair. Not until Anastasia, Roxanne, and perhaps even Rene did he break out of that.
Roxanne's hair
Spoiler for hair:


Here are instances of both the art of the lips and hair design on Roxanne.
Spoiler for Roxanne:

Spoiler for Lips and Hair design:

People may dislike the story arc, but I think Roxanne, even as a potential side character, is one of the better human characters Yagi has designed. Now if you like her character that is completely different.

@ Elandyll I disagree. Yagi's character design has improved dramatically from the beginning. Also, as far as background I would argue the backdrop of the last arc was one of his best. I still believe the panel with Priscilla standing against a backdrop of the mountains is one of Yagi's best panels. Her face and proportions are done well and the coloring of the panel just sticks out in my mind as one of the more memorable pages Yagi has made.

Spoiler for panel in question:


While I agree the background of the current arc may not be as strong as the one above with Priscilla, I would argue that Yagi's detail with Roxanne's is an improvement over other character's features so far. Consider that until Anastasia and Roxanne (Rene even?) most characters have fairly simplistic hair from Claire's bob haircut, Teresa's wavy hair, Miria/Raki's spiky hair, and Dietrich's twin tails. Both Ana and Roxanne's hair are actually far more intricate. Roxanne face features a mole, which may seem slight, but consider all the faces of the characters in the beginning of claymore were just differentiated by their hair and maybe eyebrows. In terms of artwork for characters, Yagi appears to finally be breaking out with more designs and details for characters rather than relying on simple hair and eyebrows. Roxanne, Ana, and Hysteria present a step up.

Just look at the difference between the detail of Miria and Hysteria's hair
Spoiler for Huge Difference:

Miria's hair as well as the hair of the original cast is for the most part simple lines. Roxanne, Hysteria, and Anastasia's hair are a step up in terms of plain detail.

edit: To clarify, I can understand people not liking this arc, but to just say that the art direction has gone to hell is blatant exaggeration, especially if you compare it to the beginning of Claymore. I do not want to seem like an ass, but that statement appears to have been made out of ignorance, especially considering how far this author has come since his previous manga Angel Denustu.

Spoiler for Beginning:

Recent chapters,
Spoiler for .:

Last edited by Nixl; 2011-10-25 at 14:14.
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Old 2011-10-25, 14:15   Link #924
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Quote:
edit: To clarify, I can understand people not liking this arc, but to just say that the art direction has gone to hell is blatant exaggeration, especially if you compare it to the beginning of Claymore. I do not want to seem like an ass, but that just seems ignorant considering how far this author has come since his previous manga Angel Denustu.
HAH! I didn't even think to think that far ahead, and it's true -- forget Claymore; if you consider Angel Denutsu as well, the author has made huge huge improvements in the last decade.

Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, but if we can't at least agree he's gotten better, then I don't even know what to say to that
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Old 2011-10-25, 14:19   Link #925
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I just realized, I made almost an entire post about women's hair and lips. Oh god,

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Old 2011-10-25, 15:25   Link #926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post


Just no.Lune and Irene's situation is basically the same......to be more precise i'd say that it's even more probable that Irene is alive since the only thing that lead us to belive that she is dead is the feelings that Claire had on her arm,and it's not even clear what that could mean......ON THE CONTRARY,if you go reread the part where Riful comments on the destroyer,she pretty much implies that she was able to get Lune (and if she got Lune it means that Lune is 99,999% dead....).
So the truth is that you are claim that there is an objective difference in Lune and Irene's situation (in Lune's favour) when in reality you have absolutely no basis to say that.
well don't forget that IRENE HAD NO ARMS!
How would she survive alone with no arms? what would happen if she tripped and fell down, How would she get up?
Irene was an offensive type warrior so she can't regenerate very well.
What i assumed is that when Irene gave Clare her arm she somehow new that another warrior was near. I also don't think that Rafaella would disobey the Organization. She had orders to kill Irene.
I do believe that Renee is not dead, we never saw her die and it was not implied that she was killed like it was with Irene.
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Old 2011-10-25, 15:42   Link #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore! View Post
well don't forget that IRENE HAD NO ARMS!
How would she survive alone with no arms? what would happen if she tripped and fell down, How would she get up?
You can do it, just that its harder than normal. The simpler method is to find something you can push your back against, like a wall, a tree, etc. The harder method is to roll forward so you're face down then get into a kneeling position then rise up (its more difficult than it sounds). The hardest one is a Jackie Chan back flip but thats not impossible for trained combatants like Irene.

Surviving is harder, no doubt. Probably you have to use your mouth more. Also saw on youtube, someone playing the piano with his toes, as he had no hands. So its not impossible just extremely difficult to adjust
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Old 2011-10-25, 15:49   Link #928
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Surviving is harder, no doubt. Probably you have to use your mouth more. Also saw on youtube, someone playing the piano with his toes, as he had no hands. So its not impossible just extremely difficult to adjust
yeah I know its not impossible. but still, she wouldn't be able to defend herself against Rafaella and life would a lot harder.

I have another question, I know that Claymores don't age but do they still die around 70-90 years old? I don't think that any claymore has lived that long. Rafaella was probably like 40 or something. Or do Claymores live longer than normal humans?
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Old 2011-10-25, 15:55   Link #929
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Originally Posted by Claymore! View Post
yeah I know its not impossible. but still, she wouldn't be able to defend herself against Rafaella and life would a lot harder.

I have another question, I know that Claymores don't age but do they still die around 70-90 years old? I don't think that any claymore has lived that long. Rafaella was probably like 40 or something. Or do Claymores live longer than normal humans?
I've been lead to believe a Claymore could live forever, but I can't for the life of me remember what that belief was based on. I want to say it was Irene herself who insinuated this.
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Old 2011-10-25, 15:59   Link #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
I've been lead to believe a Claymore could live forever, but I can't for the life of me remember what that belief was based on. I want to say it was Irene herself who insinuated this.
Maybe they live for a long time like 100 to 120 years. that is still a long time. Or maybe live as long as a normal human but just don't age. the manga has never said anything about this so i guess there really isn't an answer.
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Old 2011-10-25, 16:12   Link #931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore! View Post
Maybe they live for a long time like 100 to 120 years. that is still a long time. Or maybe live as long as a normal human but just don't age. the manga has never said anything about this so i guess there really isn't an answer.
I think they may be ageless or just really long lived but yeah Irene said that after awhile the ageing peocess just stops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
I just realized, I made almost an entire post about women's hair and lips. Oh god,

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And it was pretty informative.
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Last edited by TheRussianMeatClob; 2011-10-25 at 16:39.
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Old 2011-10-25, 16:37   Link #932
Elandyll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
@Elandyll


Just no.Lune and Irene's situation is basically the same......to be more precise i'd say that it's even more probable that Irene is alive since the only thing that lead us to belive that she is dead is the feelings that Claire had on her arm,and it's not even clear what that could mean......ON THE CONTRARY,if you go reread the part where Riful comments on the destroyer,she pretty much implies that she was able to get Lune (and if she got Lune it means that Lune is 99,999% dead....).
So the truth is that you are claim that there is an objective difference in Lune and Irene's situation (in Lune's favour) when in reality you have absolutely no basis to say that.
You will see what you want to see, but after re-reading both stories, it is pretty clear that everything points out to Irene's death, whereas you cling to a self monologue of Riful explaining why Renee had to flee, because one way or another she would be obliterated. At that point, Riful still can't detect her Yoki (pill suppression), and Dauf has failed in catching up. It is also to be noted that it is the moment where the Destroyer's strength starts increasing by leaps and bounds and it captures Riful's attention.
So, yeah...


Quote:
Ridicoulous. How can you say what "old Yagi"would have done ???
That's just what YOU think,not what he thinks, BIG DIFFERENCE,lol.
We don't know even how he intends to evolve the story,and considering that the whole huge rebellion is based on the fact that Miria survived,i'd say that you are speaking nonsense.
Old Yagi didn't magically resurrect supposedly dead characters left and right, did he now? Let alone Miria which was a complete cop out, look at what happened to Cynthia.
Very touching scene in chapter 98, all that to end up .. being completely re-constructed. Thank god for bionics right?
Quote:
Old Yagi saved A LOT of times warrior that eveidently in his mind was useful for his continuation of the story,it's not that he always kiled warriors if he had the chance: Deneve and Helen are clear examples that even old Yagi had no problem in making "secondary" characters survive against all odds.
That's the point. Even characters that have seemingly no point have survived against all odds too, even after seemingly dying or being half-obliterated.


Quote:
Their deaths are objectively dark endings,just because you don't feel it,it means nothing.
It's full of dark situations in manga that have no effect on me because i don't care too much about the characters involved,but i don't go around saying that those situations are no dark just because i don't care for them,lol.
The dark theme in a manga is something objective,it's not a personal opinion,and people that don't understand that Isley's death (for example) is OBJECTIVELY a dark scene....well, sorry but they simply don't know what they are talking about.
You don't care a lot about those scene?Ok, every person cares for different things so there is nothing strange here....BUT this is a completely different matter!
Admittedly Isley's scene was somewhat dark ... but what did we really know about him? About his dreams, his ambitions, his past? Close to nothing, making the scene .. well .. the tragic end of a vilain we didn't know much about.


Quote:
Ehm,Hilda appeared little,BUT her role is VERY important considering that she is Miria's motivation for her whole revenge (Hilda's figure is more or less like Teresa's figure for Claire),so yes her role is more important than warriors like Flora or Undine....but returning to the actual subject (darkness) it's 100% sure that Hilda's death is a scene A LOT more dark,cruel and sad than the deaths during Pieta (Jean excluded),so i don't see why i shouldn't list that scene,lol.
Hilda is important for the development of a -secondary- character.
If it's that important to you, well, that's your problem I guess


Quote:
*Look at the art in the first 5 volumes*

*Look at the art post-Pieta*

Hmmmm.......are you sure we are talking about the same manga?
Degustibus......
Yes, I even gave a specific example

More example?

Forest in chapter 99, page 6 = garbled mess
Forest in chapter 3, pg 17 = beautifully rendered trees, shadows, leaves on the floor

I have not been talking about character design, which has obviously improved (as I said before, it's a normal occurrence for mangakas after years on the same manga), but about the environment.

I'm going to stop giving examples, because I have a feeling that it will not serve any purpose in this ongoing "whatever you say, you are wrong".
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Old 2011-10-25, 16:54   Link #933
Nixl
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This is the image you find beautiful?

By addtionalpylons at 2011-10-25

I understand even less, the artwork of 99, page 6 is more detailed. The panel you talk about on page 6 is small and that is not his only environment he drew in that chapter. Even then, in page 6 Yagi has grass, leaves, weeds, flowers, and shaded trees. He drew individual stalks of grass and weeds. Technically the artwork is better in 99 if you think of the growth of his technique and the detail he put in. He used less lines in chapter 3, page 17 than chapter 99 page 6 or 7. His earlier artwork is plain simple in comparison. I am not even going to talk about the effort needed to shade and draw every little detail in page 7.

If we are talking about his environments, why did you leave out page 7 of the same chapter to which you called page 6 a "garbled mess." Here is the next page,


Overall, he drew more items with more detail. Your complaint seems more aimed at not seeing it all on a tiny panel on one of the pages. Of course it is going to be hard to see, yet he still put the time into creating a background for a small minute panel. Look at the next page above, is that a gargled mess to you? Yagi is actually drawing more. I also would argue that "garbled mess" is an exaggeration. It is shaded too darkly, but one can still see every little detail he put in.

You argue that the environments are less, but I do not see it. If anything, when Yagi does draw environments they are better than what he drew in early Claymore. The issue I see is that he pushes"speed-lines" to try to emphasize quick motion too often now.

edit: Elandyll I can understand if you hate this arc, it is a valid point, but saying the recent arcs' art is "terrible" because of backgrounds seems much. I totally disagree with you on the forests. Why not look at the next page, page 7 on 99. While they are dark, I do not think it is fair to say they are a "garbled mess," because the attention to detail is in fact far greater. You chose to talk about a small panel on page 6, but what of page 7? Furthermore, the last two arcs have been in snowy mountains and a barren desert with the rubble of the organization. There is virtually no way I can think of that would (1) be beautiful and (2) not cover the characters in gray.

edit 2: I also also confused as to why you stated that the artwork had gone to hell. The character models are better and if anything Yagi has improved his ability to draw environments. I feel like you do not know where Yagi started from in Angel Denustu and saying "garbled mess" and "gone to hell" just feels like hyperbole. It is one thing to not like an arc or the way something was drawn, but to go out of your way to write it off as "it sucks" and "gone to hell" adds no weight to the conversation.

Last edited by Nixl; 2011-10-25 at 17:31.
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Old 2011-10-25, 16:56   Link #934
MalakTawus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore! View Post
well don't forget that IRENE HAD NO ARMS!
How would she survive alone with no arms? what would happen if she tripped and fell down, How would she get up?
Irene was an offensive type warrior so she can't regenerate very well.
What i assumed is that when Irene gave Clare her arm she somehow new that another warrior was near. I also don't think that Rafaella would disobey the Organization. She had orders to kill Irene.
I do believe that Renee is not dead, we never saw her die and it was not implied that she was killed like it was with Irene.
Ehm,Irene is 100% confident that she can regen her arm,her only doubt is if it will be as strong as the original (and btw she seemed quite optimistic even on this matter).

Also i don't care it you "belive or not" if Raph would disobey the org,all i'm saying that it's 100% possible,especially since Raph didn't care at all about the org.

Also,it's still A LOT mmore probable that Raph decided to not kill Irene compared to Riful deciding to spare Lune,lol.
And btw,YES,it was implied A LOT that Riful has killed Lune,go reread what Riful says while commenting on the destroyer.....

@Elandyll

Quote:
Old Yagi didn't magically resurrect supposedly dead characters left and right, did he now? Let alone Miria which was a complete cop out, look at what happened to Cynthia.
Very touching scene in chapter 98, all that to end up .. being completely re-constructed. Thank god for bionics right?
In case you have forgotten,the ghosts now are VERY powerful warriors,so there is nothing strange if their survival ability is great.Yuma save Cinthya,so what? Yuma is a great warrior now, compared to normal ones she would be no doubt one of the best single digits....
And btw,what happened to Miria is ok too, it's the first time in the story that Yagi use a trick like that,so i don't see the problem.

Quote:
Admittedly Isley's scene was somewhat dark ...
Ok,if you consider his death "somewhat" dark,than there is no point continuing this.

Quote:
but what did we really know about him? About his dreams, his ambitions, his past? Close to nothing, making the scene .. well .. the tragic end of a vilain we didn't know much about.
Ehmm, what you say about not knowing a lot about Isley,we could say the same about a lot of other characters died in the first half....
If you think about it,it's not that we knew a lot about Teresa too,lol.Yes,even Teresa!
And let's not even comment on the huge amount of informations (dreams,ambitions,past) that we knew about Flora,Undine,Jean,Veronica,Jean.....

In case you haven't noticed,Yagi's style is not like that.He doesn't reveal a lot about his characters,you have to understand the characters from the little things.....even Claire herself,the main character,has a not-so-clear background.

Quote:
Hilda is important for the development of a -secondary- character.
If it's that important to you, well, that's your problem I guess
If you don't understand that Miria's actions are important for the whole manga....i guess that's YOUR problem,lol.

Quote:
I'm going to stop giving examples, because I have a feeling that it will not serve any purpose in this ongoing "whatever you say, you are wrong".
*Look at the page that you suggested*

The only reason you should stop giving examples is because the more you go on the more you are making yourself ridiculous.

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2011-10-25 at 17:46.
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:26   Link #935
Claymore!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
Ehm,Irene is 100% confident that she can regen her arm,her only doubt is if it will be as strong as the original (and btw she seemed quite optimistic even on this matter).
I think the confidence was only to get clare to accept her arm. And i have assumed that Irene knew that someone (Rafaella) was looking for her and that she might not have much time left. Hence her complete lack of surprise when Rafaella did show up.

Quote:
Also i don't care it you "belive or not" if Raph would disobey the org,all i'm saying that it's 100% possible,especially since Raph didn't care at all about the org.
It is also 100% possible for a meteor to strike china tomorrow and kill everyone there. But its very improbable.
Rafaella was completely obedient to the Organization, why would she betray them at that point and not kill Irene.

Quote:
Also,it's still A LOT mmore probable that Raph decided to not kill Irene compared to Riful deciding to spare Lune,lol.
And btw,YES,it was implied A LOT that Riful has killed Lune,go reread what Riful says while commenting on the destroyer.....
I know what Riful says, she does imply something but it was never certain that she died. In fact even if Riful had cut her she could have "played dead" like everyone did during Pieta because of the Yoki suppression medicine. And because Riful was focussed on the destroyer she might not have noticed that Renee was still alive.
But because both Irene and Renee "died" off screen we can't be sure what has happened to them. But i am pretty sure that Irene is dead and Renee is probably alive, although she doesn't need to be because she is kinda a useless character.
Quote:

IRENE HAD NO ARMS!
(on a side note, when i stated that, i meant it as a joke )
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:26   Link #936
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Why the story no longer is a dark one ? ( except the wonderful last chapter of course):

. no real point to bring raftela back. I always have said that she was going to rebel because of the power difference between miria group and the mib but since I saw her dead the point is why? While miria is surrounded by friends, she is surrounded by enemies. Of course we can say that the mib are retards but since when retarded people do yomas, twins project, abyssal eaters, eyes and that number 10. Ah, yes bringing death people to life too. So they donít know how to kill someone that is unconscious ? this is what I hate from normal mangas, that feeling that they will stay alive.

. raki of course. Lets see he is what ? we donít know. He can be a claymore, something different ( new) or the images are simple broken and we see a 100% human fighting a way that no one can fight. Besides if he is only a human he should be dead right now after fighting so many men at the same time. At least the little girls should join the fight because they are already half monsters ( it would make the scenario a lot more believable)

. no new claymores are dead after fighting the abyssal eaters and those numbers 1 yet

I am not saying that lets killing them all, they can also try to run for their lives or to hide or even give up the fight ( for example some of the ghosts would give up the fight Ė just like galateia have done).

It seems that lately, the good guys are always wining when there is no good chance to them to win ( of course, the last chapter is the exception Ė lets hope that roxane have a lot of panels to raise up this to dark again)

Irene is dead because of rafaela personality Ė she is the type of girl that donít forgive people and the last eye is still alive because riful have stopped to chase her in order to see the destroyer ( if she would catch her up if the destroyer were not around I donít real know because Lune was on pills)
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:33   Link #937
Elandyll
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edit: Elandyll I can understand if you hate this arc, it is a valid point, but saying the recent arcs' art is "terrible" because of backgrounds seems much. I totally disagree with you on the forests. Why not look at the next page, page 7 on 99. While they are dark, I do not think it is fair to say they are a "garbled mess," because the attention to detail is in fact far greater. You chose to talk about a small panel on page 6, but what of page 7? Furthermore, the last two arcs have been in snowy mountains and a barren desert with the rubble of the organization. There is virtually no way I can think of that would (1) be beautiful and (2) not cover the characters in gray.

edit 2: I also also confused as to why you stated that the artwork had gone to hell. The character models are better and if anything Yagi has improved his ability to draw environments. I feel like you do not know where Yagi started from in Angel Denustu and saying "garbled mess" and "gone to hell" just feels like hyperbole. It is one thing to not like an arc or the way something was drawn, but to go out of your way to write it off as "it sucks" and "gone to hell" adds no weight to the conversation.
If you don't see it at this point, nothing I can do for you

(and being that far in denial as to say that he has -improved- in drawing environments .. wow)

P.S: why would I care about Angel Denustu in a discussion about Claymore? I simply imply that Yagi cares less about his creation (Claymore) than he used to, and may have cut back on assistants (who traditionally work on less important things like grey scales and environments).

Last edited by Elandyll; 2011-10-25 at 17:46.
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:34   Link #938
Dj0rel
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You will see what you want to see, but after re-reading both stories, it is pretty clear that everything points out to Irene's death, whereas you cling to a self monologue of Riful explaining why Renee had to flee, because one way or another she would be obliterated. At that point, Riful still can't detect her Yoki (pill suppression), and Dauf has failed in catching up. It is also to be noted that it is the moment where the Destroyer's strength starts increasing by leaps and bounds and it captures Riful's attention.
So, yeah...
And you fail to see what you refuse to see. Entire page 4 of chapter 93 clearly implies that Riful caught up to Renee. Both with panel focus and with the fact that Riful refereed to Renee as "you" instead of "she". Furthermore if Renee is alive then where is she? She clearly said that she needs to get back to the Organization to report stuff. She should have returned a long time ago considering that Dae was in the western lands at the same time and he returned.


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Originally Posted by Elandyll View Post
Old Yagi didn't magically resurrect supposedly dead characters left and right, did he now?
He's not resurrecting dead characters as you say "left and right" now either. He only resurrected three of them and they weren't exactly characters before that. It's not like he brought back Teresa or Jean or Flora. No these are brand new characters. And what exactly do you have against resurrection anyway.

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Originally Posted by Elandyll View Post
Let alone Miria which was a complete cop out,
Miria's return made much more sense than Irene's.

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Originally Posted by Elandyll View Post
look at what happened to Cynthia.
Very touching scene in chapter 98, all that to end up .. being completely re-constructed.
Just like when Clare brought Jean back from awakening after seeing how it's done only once, or when Jean brought Clare back from awakening after seeing how it's done only once. In fact, now that I think about it, that whole scene makes a lot more sense. Why should Clare be the only one who uses recently learned abilities to save someone.

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Admittedly Isley's scene was somewhat dark ... but what did we really know about him? About his dreams, his ambitions, his past? Close to nothing, making the scene .. well .. the tragic end of a vilain we didn't know much about.
We knew more about Isley (and Luciella and Riful for that matter) than we knew about Jean and Flora. We just barely knew about Undine about as much as we knew about Luciella.
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:34   Link #939
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If you don't see it at this point, nothing I can do for you
That is not a counter-argument Elandyll.
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:37   Link #940
Claymore!
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. raki of course. Lets see he is what ? we don’t know. He can be a claymore, something different ( new) or the images are simple broken and we see a 100% human fighting a way that no one can fight. Besides if he is only a human he should be dead right now after fighting so many men at the same time. At least the little girls should join the fight because they are already half monsters ( it would make the scenario a lot more believable)
And what in the story specifically states that what Raki is doing is inhuman?
He is just a really strong human who is also a great swordsman. And just because you have never seen another human do what Raki was doing doesn't mean that it is impossible. The Organizations men suck at fighting so Raki can take them easily. However, in chapter 118 he stated that he couldn't hold back anymore and that he was just going to kill all the ninja guys that came at him. So Raki was getting tired, if he was "inhuman" he could just keep on fighting like he was before.
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