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Old 2011-12-06, 15:44   Link #141
Vena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Hina and Madoka were more complicated in the VN than the anime handled though.
I never played the game, though, so I wouldn't know, and from that view they mentioned it and then resolved it.
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Old 2011-12-06, 15:54   Link #142
hyl
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Yeah, I wasn't exactly expecting them to do a straight continuation into Episode 5, which was indeed continuing down Airi's route. But I think there was some pretty good logic to doing this as well, because "I need to see how Shingo is different" actually served as a good transition into Ange's arc, which itself served as a good transition into Sana's development (showing again how Shingo is different and how she got attracted to him despite hating men). I guess the only weakness of this approach is that, while the themes were handed off rather smoothly, it implies that future development of Airi's feelings are forthcoming... and this probably would have happened if not for the club-related events moving to the foreground (which never happened in Airi's route). I think that, just like they deliberately removed all the flags earlier in the anime, they wanted to keep things open enough that the route they were taking wasn't too obvious. If they had removed all the ambiguity, it may have made for a slightly-more cohesive love story, but at the expense of showing other useful aspects of the game and keeping people guessing as to where the anime was going to go. I think what they wound up with was a good compromise (and much better than most other attempts at similar).
I have another speculation how that scene that "Shingo might be different from other men" might fit and it has to do with the bathing scene. I speculate that Airi thought that Shingo helped her earlier was because he liked her (well atleast it made Airi like Shingo) but after the bathing scene she realizes that Shingo is "the kind of person" who is considerate towards everyone and not just to her. After that scene i did not notice any signs of Airi having a crush on Shingo anymore, but then again the scenes with Sana overshadowed it. Seeing that she paid more attention to Sana (who started to develop a crush on Shingo, just like herself before) rather than Shingo.
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Old 2011-12-06, 15:57   Link #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I have another speculation how that scene that "Shingo might be different from other men" might fit and it has to do with the bathing scene. I speculate that Airi thought that Shingo helped her earlier was because he liked her (well atleast it made Airi like Shingo) but after the bathing scene she realizes that Shingo is "the kind of person" who is considerate towards everyone and not just to her. After that scene i did not notice any signs of Airi having a crush on Shingo anymore, but then again the scenes with Sana overshadowed it. Seeing that she paid more attention to Sana than Shingo.
Hmm ... a very good point.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:03   Link #144
Vena
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I have another speculation how that scene that "Shingo might be different from other men" might fit and it has to do with the bathing scene. I speculate that Airi thought that Shingo helped her earlier was because he liked her (well atleast it made Airi like Shingo) but after the bathing scene she realizes that Shingo is "the kind of person" who is considerate towards everyone and not just to her. After that scene i did not notice any signs of Airi having a crush on Shingo anymore, but then again the scenes with Sana overshadowed it. Seeing that she paid more attention to Sana (who started to develop a crush on Shingo, just like herself) rather than Shingo.
You could then ask, why did she feel compelled to join the club? The way the scenes are structured, the events would seem to imply that she joins the club for him and because of him. She may have realized he is nice to everyone or not, but her actions would point to him being the driving force. But I'm just playing devil's advocate for you, the scene and arrangement are too open for any solid conclusion.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:07   Link #145
hyl
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
You could then ask, why did she feel compelled to join the club? The way the scenes are structured, the events would seem to imply that she joins the club for him and because of him. She may have realized he is nice to everyone or not, but her actions would point to him being the driving force.
I don't think she joined for the sake of Shingo. At first Airi seemed for me waiting to get invited in the club by Shingo (She might have thought that he would atleast try to do it if he really liked her, they would be together more often), but he did not invite her due to her dislike for animals. After knowing the reason why Shingo did not invite her, she still joined for the sake of her friendship with the others in the club (who also tried saving the club by joining it, even if it was very last minute). But that's just in my opinion.

edit: In my opinion in contrast to other people in the anime section , i think the bathing scene was rather the end of Airi's story instead of a continuation of her route
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:12   Link #146
Vena
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I don't think she joined for the sake of Shingo. At first Airi seemed for me waiting to get invited in the club by Shingo (She might have thought that he would atleast try to do it if he really liked her they would be together more often), but he did not invite her due to her dislike for animals. After knowing the reason why Shingo did not invite her, she still joined for the sake of her friendship with the others in the club (who also tried saving the club by joining it, even if it was very last minute). But that's just in my opinion.
Seems valid but let me continue devil's advocate, if its for friendship then her not being invited by Shingo wouldn't make too much of a difference unless she was expecting him to invite her. She can still join the club, it was open admission and they were advertising for just about anyone, so nothing is actually stopping her except for her expectation to be invited, (Which sounds strangely presumptuous of her.) and if its for her friends then what better way to surprise them than to join the club for them. The bath scene doesn't seem to be all that necessary other than to build more towards Airi's reason for doing it being Shingo.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:18   Link #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
You could then ask, why did she feel compelled to join the club? The way the scenes are structured, the events would seem to imply that she joins the club for him and because of him. She may have realized he is nice to everyone or not, but her actions would point to him being the driving force. But I'm just playing devil's advocate for you, the scene and arrangement are too open for any solid conclusion.
I agree that there's not enough evidence for a solid conclusion, but I actually would say that I think she did join largely for Shingo's sake, but I think she considers it "payback" -- something she's able to do for him given all he did for her. Even if she knows that Shingo didn't do it because he likes her, she's still appreciative of him. And I do also think that she's looking out for the rest of the group too, who she now considers friends (and who also did her a favour by keeping her secret and showing her kindness). So yeah... I think she did it because it was her turn to do something nice for Shingo and everyone, and that's pretty much it. It's what friends do (shown by the little smile they exchanged at the beginning of episode 7).
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:18   Link #148
hyl
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Seems valid but let me continue devil's advocate, if its for friendship then her not being invited by Shingo wouldn't make too much of a difference unless she was expecting him to invite her. She can still join the club, it was open admission and they were advertising for just about anyone, so nothing is actually stopping her except for her expectation to be invited, (Which sounds strangely presumptuous of her.) and if its for her friends then what better way to surprise them than to join the club for them. The bath scene doesn't seem to be all that necessary other than to build more towards Airi's reason for doing it being Shingo.
My opinion: Airi obviously had no doubts joining the club if she joined the club by herself the next morning. I still think she wanted to get invited by Shingo and when she was surprised that he did not do it, she first wanted to know the reason or else she would have never found out if she joined before that bathing scene.

edit: as relentlessflame posted i also think she is considerate/nice towards her friends. Especially in episode 10 when she finally starts to meddle with Sana.

edit: like i and others have posted earlier: friendship was also a theme at the beginning of Mashiphony (like the birthday scene that you thought that the anime could do without , but i disagree) and her joining the club was at the end nothing more than an act of friendship

Last edited by hyl; 2011-12-06 at 16:30.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:32   Link #149
Vena
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I agree that there's not enough evidence for a solid conclusion, but I actually would say that I think she did join largely for Shingo's sake, but I think she considers it "payback" -- something she's able to do for him given all he did for her. Even if she knows that Shingo didn't do it because he likes her, she's still appreciative of him. And I do also think that she's looking out for the rest of the group too, who she now considers friends (and who also did her a favour by keeping her secret and showing her kindness). So yeah... I think she did it because it was her turn to do something nice for Shingo and everyone, and that's pretty much it. It's what friends do (shown by the little smile they exchanged at the beginning of episode 7).
I'll use this as a double reply to what hyl said as well continuing to play devil's advocate:

The problem arises in the openness of the scenes. She's given a reason from Shingo for why he didn't invite her but its on consideration and the little details he's noticed, its not anything that can be said to be conclusively platonic or not. (Perhaps her reply of "That's the kind of guy he is..." might be some sort of conclusion but rather vague as it can construed any number of ways based on the glasses you wore when the episode aired.) (And, in her shoes, wouldn't you take someone saying that to you, rather charming/endearing as opposed to the other way around?) You can definitely call it *payback*, no matter the way you analyze the scene, because no one can really say that she didn't do it *because of him* on some level, but there's no real conclusiveness as to whether or not that payback is for Shingo *only* or for everyone.

In the former case, you could say she did it to be near him and pay him back for his kindness, or the latter that she's doing it to be with her friends for her friends and payback.

Conversely, Sana's close was anything but subtle/confusing.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:37   Link #150
hyl
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If the scenes were not open, then anyone would have foreseen the girl that he end up with after episode 5. In the matter of fact, i still had no conclusive idea who Shingo ended up with untill the end of episode 8.

And Sana's close in the Miu story was never subtle to begin with in the VN o_o
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:39   Link #151
Vena
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
If the scenes were not open, then anyone would have foreseen the girl that he end up with after episode 5.

And Sana's close in the Miu story was never subtle to begin with in the VN o_o
I meant that, if you compare one close to what we're calling a *close* for the other, you can see the rather strong difference, and why one might seem/have seemed inconclusive. But, again, I do not think you should hide your main plot behind an inconclusive/vague other plot.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:43   Link #152
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Right -- I think the reasons for Airi's decision were left open-ended on purpose because they wanted people to not know how the anime was going to end at that point. They could *easily* have continued down Airi's path at that point if they wanted to, but it wasn't the only option they could have taken. The only way we could have gotten insight into Airi's thoughts were to develop it in the following episode (for example, by showing her flustered by what had happened the night before), which is basically what they did in the game. The ambiguity here is necessary.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:46   Link #153
hyl
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Right -- I think the reasons for Airi's decision were left open-ended on purpose because they wanted people to not know how the anime was going to end at that point. They could *easily* have continued down Airi's path at that point if they wanted to, but it wasn't the only option they could have taken. The only way we could have gotten insight into Airi's thoughts were to develop it in the following episode (for example, by showing her flustered by what had happened the night before), which is basically what they did in the game. The ambiguity here is necessary.
Didn't the anime gave us a small insight of Airi's thought in episode 5 when she got home thinking about Shingo?
edit: related to thinking that Shingo might be different
edit: after rewatching that episode Airi was also a little flustered thinking about Shingo
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:51   Link #154
Vena
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Didn't the anime gave us a small insight of Airi's thought in episode 5 when she got home thinking about Shingo?
edit: related to thinking that Shingo might be different
She had the whole *why do I feel like this for a guy...* part, on her bed, and being unsure of why she wanted to see him so much. After that, they didn't do much with it, though.
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Old 2011-12-06, 16:56   Link #155
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Yes and i mentioned my opinions and speculations about that scene a few posts earlier that the anime in a sense did something with that scene later on while at the same time it did nothing with it related to Airi's route.

The anime was quite open though, seeing that she only said that she needs to know that shingo is different, but she did not directly say different compared to who. Eventhough you can speculate at that point that it's men in general.
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Old 2011-12-07, 06:07   Link #156
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In retrospec: The most obvious sign that the anime's version of the bath scene would have lead to Airi's route, would be to see her heavily blushing and stuttering in school the next day. And likewise Shingo's awkward memory of "yesterday". Of course you can only think like that if you have played the VN before . In the VN the whole bath interaction created a lot more awkwardness between them (the whole sitting back-to-back with the occational physical touch/contact).

@the question of solving a bit of Airi's issues within MiuxShingo outcome: As relentlessflame said, if at all, the anime could use the whole school merger scenario. The remaining problems of Airi's route (specifically between her mother and her) are tightly tied in the ShingoxAiri moments la "pillar of support" and "I want to become like you."
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Old 2011-12-07, 15:13   Link #157
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I speculate the school issue will be a remaining point which made me think of something.

Spoiler:


That's all I can think of that hasn't previously been discussed. I actually find this very plausible to occur. Game players, what do you think? I have no idea what happens in the game.
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Old 2011-12-07, 15:22   Link #158
hyl
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The merger didn't work only in Sakuno's story though. Also it's a plotdevice for her story to strenghten Sakuno's and Shingo's love for eachother.
To be honest i don't think the merger will fail, seeing that it would probably negatively effect the friendship of the characters and it seems more like a bad ending
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Old 2011-12-07, 15:27   Link #159
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The way the "school merging" plays out depends on route, so it's kinda hard to say which route they will take - there are alternatives. Ultimately it isn't very important in Miu's route or for her romance (she graduates soon anyway), so whether the merger happens or not depends on the type of message the writers want to send. In this way it's actually pretty handy they are using Miu's route, because they can treat the romance and school merging as two separate issues without one playing a large role on the other.

Either way, no, I don't expect there to be much school changing going on - people will stay where they are. Irregardless of whether the schools merge or not (I can't see them not merging though personally), new friendships and understanding will have blossomed from the time spent together up to now, and many people are better off for it.
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Old 2011-12-07, 16:28   Link #160
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Yes, if they explore the school merger issue, I expect that it will follow Airi's path, with the group all working together to form a petition in support of the merger, and Airi would be the one to lead that charge. This would actually make a good book-end to the anime as it ties directly back to the first episode and highlights the huge change in Airi's outlook on school, boys, and life in general. It also shows that, through this growth, she now has the confidence to face her mom in a small way (though of course this point won't be developed nearly as much as it was in the game). With the computer being highlighted in this past episode, and next episode being "Mashiro-iro Symphony", that's actually how I expect the anime to close off now, since it will tie up most of the loose ends.
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