AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-05-08, 21:59   Link #281
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
*massages head*

Please refer back to my very first post here, where I said Shirou is a 'forge only for Saber'. Only for her he can do things that he could never have done by himself.

Also, please also remember that Avalon is still Saber's NP and functions only when she's close. Obviously when she's gone the only link to Avalon is also gone, thus even if the imprint is still inside Shirou he could not have reproduced any power at all. Thus what I said, Avalon is a NP infinitely close to conceptual/spiritual and is not bound by physical things like materials, blue print etc.

That interview also just confirmed for me that the Avalon they use is the same thing. Had they been both different things Shirou could've retraced his own image of Avalon since he's not using Saber's Avalon but his own replica, so why would the link between them matter? And yet he couldn't because Saber was no longer there. So the only Avalon he can use is Saber's Avalon.
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-09, 17:22   Link #282
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Nope. It's his own copy, made from the residue image of Sabre's Avalon. And that image fades over time.
http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/111.html
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-09, 21:21   Link #283
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Nope. It's his own copy, made from the residue image of Sabre's Avalon. And that image fades over time.
http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/111.html
Why'd you link that site? I just lost an hour of study time.

DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 16:44   Link #284
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Because someone is wrong on the Internet.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 22:26   Link #285
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Because someone is wrong on the Internet.
I'm sorry, but I still fail to see that my logic is wrong.

Spoiler:


I repeated many times that the actual 'sheath' produced itself is irrelevant but the concept behind the sheath. There can be a hundred people using a hundred Avalons but they are still the one and only same Avalon. Saber's Avalon.

And if it's about artifact embedded in his body for so long he can Project it perfectly, I've already admitted that.

On to another matter, who here thinks that the teenager Rin Tohsaka will dislike Kariya intensely?
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 23:15   Link #286
TwilightsCall
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to TwilightsCall
I think she would probably take the same attitude towards him as she took towards Shiro in the beginning. He's someone from outside who is dabbling in the affairs of mages just because they feel like it. He has no idea what he's getting in to or what he's actually trying to accomplish, so he's just going to get burned when things catch up to him.

She might be irked that he abandoned the way of the Magus and now is trying to get back in just because he wants to, but I think with her being so much younger than Tokiomi the gravity of the decision of becoming a magus or not is likely still with her, so I imagine she'd probably be more understanding of his decision to abandon magecraft in the first place.
TwilightsCall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 15:33   Link #287
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
I'm sorry, but I still fail to see that my logic is wrong.

Spoiler:


I repeated many times that the actual 'sheath' produced itself is irrelevant but the concept behind the sheath. There can be a hundred people using a hundred Avalons but they are still the one and only same Avalon. Saber's Avalon.

And if it's about artifact embedded in his body for so long he can Project it perfectly, I've already admitted that.

On to another matter, who here thinks that the teenager Rin Tohsaka will dislike Kariya intensely?
Nope. It's Projection.

Instant Projection, but still Projection. It is Avalon, a copied Avalon. Just like how he copied all the other Noble Phantasms. It is not super romantic or super special. He got to skip steps because his body "knew" it so well. Shirou is not a "super special forge" for Sabre and neither is their love-love has anything to do with this.


You can check how Projection/UBW works from the CM3 site and Fuyuki. "Trace on" is the initiation verse of Shirou's brand of Gradation Air.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 19:00   Link #288
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Since when did I say it's not made from Projection?

And Avalon is NOT like any other Noble Phantasms he has copied, because it is the only one he cannot reProject after Saber's leaving.

And perhaps I'm gimping myself for saying 'forge for Saber' (though that is when his Projection is the strongest), so I should say that the weapons he produces for the sake of others or others is the strongest.
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 22:14   Link #289
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
Since when did I say it's not made from Projection?

And Avalon is NOT like any other Noble Phantasms he has copied, because it is the only one he cannot reProject after Saber's leaving.

And perhaps I'm gimping myself for saying 'forge for Saber' (though that is when his Projection is the strongest), so I should say that the weapons he produces for the sake of others or others is the strongest.
That's because he is horrible at projecting anything that is not melee weapons.

Even when he can project them, the cost is multiplied and the effect transient.

There is nothing special about that projection besides Avalon having stewed in his innards for years. Without the imprint helping him, he just can't project a defensive Noble Phantasm of Avalon's calibre.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 23:01   Link #290
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
You mean, that's because his Projection's Attribute is Sword. Hence he cannot project anything else without the added cost on his mana and whatever.

Quote:
After the connection to Saber is gone, it can be said his image of Avalon also disappears.
Copied that from wiki. To put it simply, an imprint doesn't just 'disappear', there must be a reason to it. You repeatedly say that since Avalon is in his body for so long that he remembered every single detail of it, thus projecting a perfect Avalon, then it could be said that if there's one NP he will never forget or fail to project, it will be Avalon. But he can't do it after Saber's gone. That is to say that his projection is just giving shape for Avalon to appear, a catalyst, but the power behind it ultimately belongs to Saber's Avalon.

If he does have a different copy of Avalon, then he OWNS an Avalon copy, thus he can USE the Avalon copy. However, he does not have one and cannot use one.

And, due to translation inconsistencies, it is always possible that the Nasu interview excerpt you showed can mean something like, "Shirou's image of Avalon is Saber. Since Saber is gone, he no longer can project Avalon." Apparently love-love could have something to do with it, and if that is really the case then I am wrong, of COURSE he cannot project Avalon since his image of Avalon is Saber. Lover gone, so say goodbye to Avalon as well. *sniff sniff waves handkerchief*
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 23:20   Link #291
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
It does disappear, because it is an imprint, not Shirou's organ.

It's instant projection immediately after the removal of Avalon, then the imprints starts to disappear.

Avalon was "remembered" by his body, while everything else is stored in UBW. He can forget Avalon, but he never forgets things recorded in UBW, since that is hooked up to his soul.

And there is no translation inconsistency. You are interpreting the source differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
You mean, that's because his Projection's Attribute is Sword. Hence he cannot project anything else without the added cost on his mana and whatever.
Not just mana, they are also in a sense less durable due to degradation and last only an instant. If that Gae Bolg throw in UBW route lasted any longer, Rho Aias would have collapsed. Archer was lucky that was a short duration attack. He is just in general horrible with anything not swords, Rho Aias was the best defensive ware he had to offer.
Quote:
それも剣に限定された武装で、近代兵器は投影さえ出来なし盾や鎧はかろうじて引き出せるが、効果は瞬間的な ものであり、その代償は大きい。
... shield and armour can be barely projected via Gradation Air, and even then, the effect lasts only an instant and the cost steep.

Last edited by Touko; 2012-05-11 at 23:34.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 23:36   Link #292
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
The imprint starts to disappear AFTER Saber has departed.

Otherwise he couldn't have projected it twice perfectly, if according to your logic - once to give shape to Avalon and return it to Saber, another time to defend himself against the black mud. The latter one would've been degraded in quality.

EDIT:
Quote:
Close combat weapons such as swords, spears, and halberds are the main focus of the Reality Marble in accordance with Shirou's Origin of "Sword", which also makes it impossible to record or reproduce modern weaponry like guns and other mobile weapons. Shields and defensive armaments can be reproduced with a much greater struggle, as the cost in prana is high, two or three times greater than a sword, and the effects are merely transient compared to the originals. Weapons encountered are immediately analyzed with a single glance, enabling them to be projected immediately afterward, and once projected, they are stored within the Reality Marble for later use.
If this is true (as stated in the wiki), and since defensive armaments can still be reproduced albeit at a much greater cost, unlike modern weaponry which cannot be done, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that Avalon's imprint could have just disappeared or 'forgotten'.
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 23:40   Link #293
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Nope. The one he gave Sabre was the real one. The physical Conceptual Weapon dissolved into him by Kiritsugu.

The one he used was the projection. Of course it is degraded, otherwise why would the World recognize and crush it.

And that is the whole point. Everything projected is imperfect, Shirou's just happen to be "less imperfect" and takes the World longer to crush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post

If this is true (as stated in the wiki), and since defensive armaments can still be reproduced albeit at a much greater cost, unlike modern weaponry which cannot be done, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that Avalon's imprint could have just disappeared or 'forgotten'.
Nope. Recognize that Avalon is a Barrier Noble Phantasm, neither armour nor shield, as specified in that entry.

And of course it can be forgotten once the imprint and the path to the familiar are gone.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 23:46   Link #294
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Quote:
They are able to remove it by allowing Saber to gather its form while Shirou shapes it with Projection in order to return it to her from across time.
The one he gave Saber was shaped with his Projection. Shaped. I did not say create.

And just as the image of Avalon he has projected during his fight with Kotomine. It acted as a catalyst, but the power is Saber's Avalon.

If you're not even going to consider the arguments I've already stated above then I guess this is as far as I'm replying. I hate it when I have to repeat statements that I've already made again and again.
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-11, 23:52   Link #295
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
From Fate Route:
Quote:
Of course, that's just the image.
I say I'll return it to its original form, but it's only the magical energy that will be shaped like that.

Saber's the one who gives it shape.
The cluster of magical energy will take shape in Saber's, the possessor's, hand.
I'm just helping her.
As if making something from nothing…
I take the scattered pieces of the sheath and carefully reproduce it without flaw
Nope. Sabre was doing the extraction. Shirou was using projection to facilitate the extraction.

The second time was different. He was using Gradation Air and projecting it independently from the imprint.

I considered your argument, and found it lack of proof.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-12, 00:09   Link #296
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Excuse me? Just what is it that's different from the quote I took from the wiki above, that is Saber gathering its form and Shirou shaping it with Projection? What was the point of even arguing something like that?

Just which part of 'defensive armaments' do you not understand? Barrier is something underneath that root, thank you.

And finally, the original argument was about whether Shirou's projected NP was a different copy or not. I stand by my own belief that whatever he projected is simply an image and catalyst, with its original power coming from Saber's Avalon and NOT an individual Avalon, or else he would've been able to use it any time he wants. Whereas yours says it's an individual copy.

We obviously will not be in agreement with each other, but I will not degrade myself to the point of nitpicking about the process of reshaping Avalon - something confirmed inside the wiki, if you want to argue please go there and change it yourself - It is also well known that F/SN's English Translation can be inaccurate, and I didn't throw that in your face.

If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, do continue and please yourself. I am done.
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-12, 00:14   Link #297
Touko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Except the wiki you quote did not translate the sentence correctly. The original says "shield and armour", not "defensive armaments".

Quote:
それも剣に限定された武装で、近代兵器は投影さえ出来なし盾や鎧はかろうじて引き出せるが、効果は瞬間的な ものであり、その代償は大きい。
See?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post

We obviously will not be in agreement with each other, but I will not degrade myself to the point of nitpicking about the process of reshaping Avalon - something confirmed inside the wiki, if you want to argue please go there and change it yourself - It is also well known that F/SN's English Translation can be inaccurate, and I didn't throw that in your face.
Try throw it at my face.

Bring the original Japanese, and we can see if the translation is accurate. From what I saw, 99% of the translation stood up to test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post

If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, do continue and please yourself. I am done.
It seems I was the one giving all the evidence. You seem to just be very, very mad.
Touko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-12, 14:41   Link #298
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 25
So this week, we get to see where Mind of Steel leads to if you chose to go after it in HF ...

I have to say, I might end up replaying Fate/Stay Night again. So much of Fate/Zero is making me realize how much significance was there to these choices.

Also, I think I might be liking Shirou a lot more now ...
__________________
Arabesque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-12, 15:24   Link #299
mAc Chaos
King of Heroes
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 28
Yeah, F/Z made me appreciate the FSN heroes a lot more, especially considering how much more they accomplish with how much less they have.
mAc Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-12, 16:55   Link #300
Tenchi Hou Take
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
TBF F/SN heroes weren't that weak in comparison, F/SN Berserker was hax regardless and required someone like Shirou/archer, saber or gilgamesh in order to defeat. He could hold his own against most F/z servants.

F/SN Lancer is just pure hax, most melee fighters are pretty much screwed against him F/Z included. Archer is also hax in his own way being a weaker version of gilgamesh, but actually being able to properly wield all his weapons.

They probably seem weaker because the stronger ones were generally trolled in each route, Lancer always got screwed over in every route, berserker in every route bar the first, and archer too to some degree, though lesser than the other two.
Tenchi Hou Take is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.