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Old 2012-05-27, 04:00   Link #401
Nightengale
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Honestly, with the endings of F/SN, I thought that it was really less about 'who you saved in that route', but rather 'how Shirou's future will be shaped from the ending of each route.'

I mean, for all of Fate route's optimism... Illya's death is impending, Rin is likely to part ways with Shirou after their graduation and Shirou... he'll almost definitely walk a very lonely and painful path towards becoming the 'Hero of Justice' he dreams to be.
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Old 2012-05-27, 04:41   Link #402
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Archer never really gets saved. All the Servants are just copies of the original, so he would never really know any of it happened.

The next time EMIYA gets summoned, he'll be back to square one.
Doesn't UBW keep records of this (in the blades: memories)? I remember reading that. Because it's a reality marble and exists outside the Throne (it's of EMIYA's personal use), that's how he sees his answer in the UBW epilogue.

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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
What I meant was that he got Gil to destroy Zouken's body. It does explain why he went to the basement in the first place. And why Sakura spends so much time in the hospital (other than her being a false grail and what not).
Saber 'destroyed' his body too, remember? It doesn't matter. Unless he gets Kotomine exorcism to weaken Zouken, Gil's method wouldn't work. Even with that method, he's very alive since his main worm is in Sakura's heart.

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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
And Illya. And Saber is going to Avalon anyways---actually scratch that, Saber is already in Avalon thanks to the Nasulogic involved with the time travel and the contract she made only taking her from minutes before her death to be summoned in the timeline where she had already died in an became a Heroic Spirit.
You don't really 'save' Illya in Fate. There's no real family connection set. She doesn't have a sense of fulfillment. A lot of people really miss the point that she wants to complete the ritual. She was born for that. She never 'breaks' from her mask in Fate. In HF, despite her conclusion, she becomes the older sister again. You save more her soul? Quality vs Quantity.

...Actually, one of the TD mentions that Saber can only be saved in Fate route? It's in the one you have to kill her in HF.

Parallel worlds. Some she was saved, some she wasn't (Archer failed to save Saber apparently? He also expected her to be a Counter Guardian in Heaven's Feel).
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Old 2012-05-27, 11:11   Link #403
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
You can only save Saber in Fate (she is going to Avalon there).
I don't know, the True UBW ending seemed to indicate that Saber had accepted her fate just like she did in the Fate route. She seemed to have accepted it while watching Shirou and Archer battle. Plus once she no longer coveted the Grail, her contract with the world was voided.
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Old 2012-05-27, 12:06   Link #404
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It took Kotomine to spend all his command spells (which equals a miracle each) to clear Sakura of her worms except the Crest of Worms. Had there be a chance, Rin would have taken it, you know? She wanted to help her sister, but she could only see a dead end ahead. Furthermore, neither Rin or Shirou do anything in the end. It was Sakura herself who took care of the problem after acquiring a godly hax that allowed her to survive GoB spam and decapitation.
To be honest I figured Kotomine was bullshitting and wanted to leave the crest worm in there to cause Rin and Shirou maximum grief.

And I figured the reason Rin didn't take the chance was because she was naive enough to take Kotomine's word for it simply because he said he used his entire Magic Crest, which is practically worse than death for some magus.
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Old 2012-05-27, 12:34   Link #405
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
That's what I'm holding out hope for too. Not just because I want to see it animated (though I do), but also because it's the most natural path from Zero. Fate and UBW are better as two parts of a whole, while HF is the compliment to Zero's half.
HF probably is the closest of the three routes to a conclusion to most of Zero's plot threads, but I find that Fate and UBW would also be very much enhanced by the prequel and serve as fitting second halves to it. Especially the latter. UBW Shirou is just about the only reason Kiritsugu's life didn't turn out to be nothing but tragedy, since he was the one that fully delivered on their promise at the end of Kiritsugu's life, which ended in relief due to the knowledge that his son would become what he had always wanted to be in his stead. Sure, Fate Shirou also kept the ideal intact, but it wasn't tested in the way it was in UBW and thus Fate Shirou is likely to ended up not so different from Archer. Whereas UBW Shirou was challenged and tested directly by that same Archer, with their dichotomy essentially representing the two conflicting sides of Kiritsugu, and basically went "bring it" even when faced with the grim future that lay ahead of him. All of that makes UBW a very fitting conclusion to Zero's story as well, in my view. And Fate has some nice touches too, such as the irony of the Azoth Dagger being used to kill Kirei, etc.

I suppose it's natural people would want Heaven's Feel to be animated the most though, since it's the only one which has received no adaptation whatsoever, but personally I hardly consider that terrible excuse for a film to be deserving of the UBW name and would be rather frustrated if HF received a proper adaptation from ufotable, while UBW would have to remain in limbo with nothing to show for it but that travesty of an adaptation by DEEN.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:07   Link #406
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Didn't the narration point out that he still had some (Command Seals) on his hand unused since the last war during the Assassin/Zouken fight? I think that he might have left the Crest of Worms there intentionally, and only removed what was necessary for her condition to stabilize back then.
No there's no mention of that.
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Apparently, Kirei beat True Assassin with merely his own abilities. Abilities that were canonically stated to be inferior to his younger self in Fate/Zero.

Quote:
And Illya. And Saber is going to Avalon anyways---actually scratch that, Saber is already in Avalon thanks to the Nasulogic involved with the time travel and the contract she made only taking her from minutes before her death to be summoned in the timeline where she had already died in an became a Heroic Spirit.
No, she won't. It was specifically stated in HF that Illya has only a single year left.
She may experience happy life for a year but that's all.
I suppose Illya's "salvation" was in HF where she managed to sort out her feelings about Kiritsugu and accepted her role happily to save Shirou.

Quote:
Well, it's a little ... different for Archer, since it's more like his soul was put at ease (He realized he wasn't wrong) but pointed out that he was probably going to forget it on the next summoning. And the ones saved in UBW were Saber (even if Shirou thought he didn't, his fight with Archer (and her seeing herself in EMYIA) and her seeing what the Grail really was made her realise her mistake and give up on it and accept her destiny) and, well, Shinji since he dies in every other route (but lives in this one for some damn reason ...)
Are you sure about that?
According to the explanation that Rin gave about Heroic Spirits, they exist in countless points of time in countless alternate worlds at once.
It isn't the issue about the Servants suffering amnesia. Instead it's the fact they had already experienced the Grail War and everything else they did on their countless summonings. At once. As such the information is simply too much to remember the "fine details".

So you could say Archer was already saved way before UBW has began. Shirou just had to remind him of that fact.
Although I suppose it still means Archer would eventually "forget" this right after his next summoning.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:13   Link #407
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I refuse to believe that everything Archer went through in the UBW route just up and vanished into thin air at the end of it. That's the single most depressing thought in all of Fate. His duel with Shirou and his realization upon seeing his younger self's resolve was the validation of a lifetime of suffering. That's no minor detail to be forgotten. It meant everything to him and it made him believe in the value of his existence once more. So even if he will almost definitely forget the vast majority of what transpired in that Holy Grail War, I like to believe that that visceral feeling of "I wasn't wrong." will stay with him in some way. GARcher deserves that much, thank you.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:16   Link #408
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I refuse to believe that everything Archer went through in the UBW route just up and vanished into thin air at the end of it. That's the single most depressing thought in all of Fate. His duel with Shirou and his realization upon seeing his younger self's resolve was the validation of a lifetime of suffering. That's no minor detail to be forgotten. It meant everything to him and it made him believe in the value of his existence once more. So even if he will almost definitely forget the vast majority of what transpired in that Holy Grail War, I like to believe that that visceral feeling of "I wasn't wrong." will stay with him in some way. GARcher deserves that much, thank you.


I wanted to believe that too, but...

Yeah. But I think it also makes his ending more poignant. He knows that it's all going to slip through his fingers -- yet again -- but he takes it like a champ and goes out with a smile, happy that he managed to even grasp that one sliver of meaning and happiness.

It is true that they retain all their memories, though... it was described as a giant library, where Archer just sits around reading the books as they endlessly come in.

I don't think it has the same punch that way for him though. Imagine if you were all torn up over your mother's death or something. Then you read a book from the future and it says, "You get over it eventually."

That doesn't really do anything for you does it. :P
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:22   Link #409
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Personally, I think it was hinted in HF that Archer was summoned as both Servant AND Counter Guardian, so there's chance he'll remember it.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:26   Link #410
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I wanted to believe that too, but...
I figured the "save" she's referring to there is about still being a pawn of the world, not whether he likes it or not.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:27   Link #411
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HF probably is the closest of the three routes to a conclusion to most of Zero's plot threads, but I find that Fate and UBW would also be very much enhanced by the prequel and serve as fitting second halves to it. Especially the latter. UBW Shirou is just about the only reason Kiritsugu's life didn't turn out to be nothing but tragedy, since he was the one that fully delivered on their promise at the end of Kiritsugu's life, which ended in relief due to the knowledge that his son would become what he had always wanted to be in his stead. Sure, Fate Shirou also kept the ideal intact, but it wasn't tested in the way it was in UBW and thus Fate Shirou is likely to ended up not so different from Archer. Whereas UBW Shirou was challenged and tested directly by that same Archer, with their dichotomy essentially representing the two conflicting sides of Kiritsugu, and basically went "bring it" even when faced with the grim future that lay ahead of him. All of that makes UBW a very fitting conclusion to Zero's story as well, in my view. And Fate has some nice touches too, such as the irony of the Azoth Dagger being used to kill Kirei, etc.

I suppose it's natural people would want Heaven's Feel to be animated the most though, since it's the only one which has received no adaptation whatsoever, but personally I hardly consider that terrible excuse for a film to be deserving of the UBW name and would be rather frustrated if HF received a proper adaptation from ufotable, while UBW would have to remain in limbo with nothing to show for it but that travesty of an adaptation by DEEN.
I share your desire for a proper UBW adaptation, but I don't think it would make for such a good conclusion to Fate/Zero's story. Most of the plot threads introduced in F/Z wouldn't be resolved, and Kirei's role in this route would undoubtedly disappoint F/Z fans. He is as important a character as Kiritsugu is after all.

I feel HF would be more satisfying on all accounts, since it resolves Sakura, Zouken, Illya and Kirei's stories. All of them are more fleshed out in this route than in any other. Furthermore, I don't think the choice Shirou makes in this route is such a tragedy for Kiritsugu. He manages to do what his father never could: choose love over his ideals and put the life of one person above others'. I believe Kiritsugu would be happy his son "escaped" the fate he inadvertently imposed on him. Simply knowing Shirou won't become the same miserable person Kiri was is enough to relieve him. Having Shirou stick to his ideals and become Kiritsugu 2.0 (like in that bad end) would be a far greater tragedy.

The main downside to HF I can see is that Saber gets a horrible end in it. But that in itself would fit Fate/Zero's mood.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:40   Link #412
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A Counter Guardian can exist in all time axis, but their 'memories' accumulate just like any other human. They don't always know all of their memories or knowledge.

Before UBW, you could say that Archer was in a state of despair. He continued to fulfill his ideals faithfully but his heart was dead. After UBW he would still be a Counter Guardian that is doomed to fight forever - hence the meaning 'that you will not be saved' by Rin - but it is mentioned that the original Archer - the one removed from the time axis to exist at all time - felt a sudden calmness and was no longer plagued by his despair, even though he could not explain or remember why.
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Old 2012-05-27, 15:48   Link #413
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I figured the "save" she's referring to there is about still being a pawn of the world, not whether he likes it or not.
Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well. That section was written from Rin's point of view, and she doesn't even know about the epiphany Archer had while facing Shirou. Therefore she believes he is simply going back to that same old hell against his wishes, when he's actually okay with it after having attained reassurance from his younger self.

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I share your desire for a proper UBW adaptation, but I don't think it would make for such a good conclusion to Fate/Zero's story. Most of the plot threads introduced in F/Z wouldn't be resolved, and Kirei's role in this route would undoubtedly disappoint F/Z fans. He is as important a character as Kiritsugu is after all.

I feel HF would be more satisfying on all accounts, since it resolves Sakura, Zouken, Illya and Kirei's stories. All of them are more fleshed out in this route than in any other. Furthermore, I don't think the choice Shirou makes in this route is such a tragedy for Kiritsugu. He manages to do what his father never could: choose love over his ideals and put the life of one person above others'. I believe Kiritsugu would be happy his son "escaped" the fate he inadvertently imposed on him. Simply knowing Shirou won't become the same miserable person Kiri was is enough to relieve him. Having Shirou stick to his ideals and become Kiritsugu 2.0 (like in that bad end) would be a far greater tragedy.

The main downside to HF I can see is that Saber gets a horrible end in it. But that in itself would fit Fate/Zero's mood.
Yeah, I admit that HF is the one that best follows up on everything Zero brought into the fray. And HF Shirou's choice should indeed be a compromise that Kiritsugu would understand and respect, seeing as he himself considered such a life many times over (like in episode 7), only he was incapable of going through with it. But that's Kiritsugu, the man within whom the ideal originated. Shirou simply borrowed it, so him coming up with his own wish to fill his lack of self should also make Kiritsugu happy, even if not as much as UBW Shirou.

Basically I just don't want UBW to be the only route not to get a proper series, since it is my favorite route. Sure, the Fate TV series was nothing to write home about either, but at least it wasn't rushed to hell and back like the UBW movie. So if by some chance ufotable are indeed able to produce F/SN anime in the future, I hope they'll consider doing their proper version of UBW as well, after that long awaited animated HF or not.
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:42   Link #414
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Now that I am thinking about it... Kirei is going to go on and teach Rin, meanwhile he was responsible for her parents deaths. Damn that is twisted.
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:48   Link #415
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I don't know, the True UBW ending seemed to indicate that Saber had accepted her fate just like she did in the Fate route. She seemed to have accepted it while watching Shirou and Archer battle. Plus once she no longer coveted the Grail, her contract with the world was voided.
How is she going to survive a deadly wound without her sheath? That's what granting her immortality.

When Nasu's asked about Saber's fate in the Fate route, he specifically says she's in Avalon. Not in the others.
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:50   Link #416
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She didn't take Avalon back to her time anyway. She doesn't survive the wound in any route, as history states King Arthur died that day. And we see her die as such in the Fate route too.
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:47   Link #417
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She didn't take Avalon back to her time anyway. She doesn't survive the wound in any route, as history states King Arthur died that day. And we see her die as such in the Fate route too.
Yes, she did. Shirou gave her Avalon back. He didn't have it anymore post Fate.

In the Fate route, she falls asleep then she's taken to Avalon. She never really dies (as RN version... of course).
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Old 2012-05-28, 07:52   Link #418
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About a HF adaptation, I honestly would like to see it in an OVA format. I think that's really the best way for it to be told in an animated form. Not a series (too many episodes) and absolutely not a film (God no!). It would give it amble time to flech out and tell all the important parts of the route without rushing it all to hell or dragging etc.

As for the best route that best fits as a conclusion to Fate/Zero ... honestly there is none. Not a single one of these routes gives a good ending to all the plot lines and threads introduced in the prequel (which makes sense, since it is a multi-route game and Fate/Zero was written after it was made). If I look at it, the entire game of Fate/Stay Night works as a conclusion to Fate/Zero, as it should be, since you can't take one route and run with it in this game, each one of them is needed to get the full story (which harms it more than it does much good IMO, but what can you do)

I think it speaks volumes about how great Zero is since it manages to complement in in many cases, improve on the entire experience with the series, as well as build upon Saber's character and the size and stakes involved in this conflict, and give so much meaning to events that might have not had such significance before.

Makes me sort of wish Zero came out first and then Stay Night, then the writing might have been better and we could have had a single route that tied up everything nicely, or at least each story didn't have to be so dependent on the others.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Honestly, with the endings of F/SN, I thought that it was really less about 'who you saved in that route', but rather 'how Shirou's future will be shaped from the ending of each route.'

I mean, for all of Fate route's optimism... Illya's death is impending, Rin is likely to part ways with Shirou after their graduation and Shirou... he'll almost definitely walk a very lonely and painful path towards becoming the 'Hero of Justice' he dreams to be.
The two play into each other. Shirou ends up realizing that the way he had been going about it is wrong and uncompromising with his ideal, and by the end of each route he starts to understand the true nature of what he is aiming for. That becoming a Hero of Justice is something worth living and dying for, and he should never regret it (Fate) that his goal and ream isn't protecting his ideal, but using his ideal to protect others (UBW) that to be a hero is to stand with the people you love against all odds in their hour of need (HF) and in all cases, it's all up against all the evils in the world he needs to test it.

In Fate, him saving Saber helped him get over his past and go on to be a hero (and even if he does have a long and hard path ahead, he apparently went to meet her in Avalon, so he must have done something right along that way to reach there )

In UBW, he gains Rin as an ally so he wont lose his path and become like his father or his possible future self, saves Saber (and wants to meet her again) and despite realizing he is going on an endless journey where he might never, and probably will never, reach the utopia he's aiming towards but accepts that since the point isn't that he's trying to protect his ideal like EMYIA had done, but he is following that ideal to protect others and it's worth going through with it.

In HF, he saves Sakura because she is the person he loves and she is being literally used by evil incarnate, and he could never stand back and watch her being swallowed and punished for something she had no power to stop. It's the same with him going ahead and saving Illya (hence the 3 choices you get when she tells you to leave )

What the people Shirou save do is that they give him a more personal connection to his ideal, so he is no longer just a broken pre-programmed ''machine'' like how his father was, but a person who is had been shaped and determined enough to care on with what he decided in the war for the rest of his life. It gave him more meaning than a simple borrowed dream.
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Saber 'destroyed' his body too, remember? It doesn't matter. Unless he gets Kotomine exorcism to weaken Zouken, Gil's method wouldn't work. Even with that method, he's very alive since his main worm is in Sakura's heart.
Remember, we are talking about Gilgamesh here, the guy that even the normal rules don't apply to him He might have had something in his GoB that caused equal sorry, greater damage to Zouken's fake body than Kotomine's spell.

Which of course lead to him trying to possess Sakura, who was under further pressure thanks to being the fake grail, leading her to fall and go to the hospital ...

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You don't really 'save' Illya in Fate. There's no real family connection set. She doesn't have a sense of fulfillment. A lot of people really miss the point that she wants to complete the ritual. She was born for that. She never 'breaks' from her mask in Fate. In HF, despite her conclusion, she becomes the older sister again. You save more her soul? Quality vs Quantity..
... I have no idea what you are on about here. Ilya isn't saved in Fate after stopping Kotomine from killing her? She wants to complete the ritual she never cared about and that the Einzberns give up on after the 5th in every reality? Never breaks from her mask when she is acting and living happily with Shirou and Taiga? Quality/quantity? Saving more of her?

By the end of Fate, Illya is living happily and without much worry (other than her having a year to live, and even that sounds like she has something to avert it) and is acting like a sister to Shioru, as will as fulfilling her mother's dream of her coming over to Japan and seeing the outside world as a human girl. There isn't more to be saved since there isn't anything else to be saved, Illya's time with Shirou and Saber in Fate made her realise she wanted to be with him.

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Originally Posted by GDB
She seemed to have accepted it while watching Shirou and Archer battle.
Yeah, and to be honest, I thought that was a better way for her to realise how foolish her wish was than the ''You shouldn't fight since you are a girl!'' early talk from Fate

The moment where she realised that it was looking into a mirror when she realised who Archer really was is still one of my favorite moments in the game

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
No there's no mention of that.
Actually...

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at 1:22

Quote:
The priest Kotomine Kirei doesn't answer, but checks his weapons.

Five Black Keys on each side, and a Command Spell on his right arm, unused since the last war.
This plus what he told Sakura when she first woke up from the operation pretty much confirms it. Dude just saved her enough to have Rin and Shirou suffer.

I love this guy.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Apparently, Kirei beat True Assassin with merely his own abilities. Abilities that were canonically stated to be inferior to his younger self in Fate/Zero.
Damn, more reason why I feel bad for Assassin lolz

Hassan the King of Assassins must be rolling in his grave ...

(Man, even the Fake Assassin summoned by caster was an even match with Saber on a one-on-one sword duel (and she even admitted she was afraid of him!) and the True Assassin just ends up being trashed by everyone, even a human lol)
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
No, she won't. It was specifically stated in HF that Illya has only a single year left.
She may experience happy life for a year but that's all.
I suppose Illya's "salvation" was in HF where she managed to sort out her feelings about Kiritsugu and accepted her role happily to save Shirou.
Be it HF or Fate, Ilya ends up with a ''One year of Happiness'' or saving Shirou using her own life.

In anycase, she ends up being saved and becomes more than simply a Lesser Grail like she was taught she was.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Are you sure about that?
Honestly? When it comes to this game and the Type-Moon verse ... no I am never sure

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Yes, she did. Shirou gave her Avalon back. He didn't have it anymore post Fate.
Yeah, but she didn't take it with her once the summoning from The Fuyuki Ritual ended.

King Arthur never had Avalon with him in his final moments. This is one of these things the game had hammered into our heads countless times: The Grail can not change the past, and has no power to do so. Even if Saber did win, she couldn't have her wish granted even with an pure Grail
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In the Fate route, she falls asleep then she's taken to Avalon. She never really dies (as RN version... of course).
That's pretty much how it should go in every other reality, since it's how the legend of King Arthur death unfolds ... it's even explained in Fate how even though Saber is alive as a Servant, she had already died in the timeline she was summoned in (Time Travel ugh ...).

In any case, Saber will always die, and will always go to Avalon, regardless of what route or reality it is ... unless we are talking about a reality in which King Arthur never existed.
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Old 2012-05-28, 08:28   Link #419
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I forgot so much of this stuff. Rather, I didn't pick up on it the first time I played. I am definitely playing again when Fate/Zero ends.
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Old 2012-05-28, 18:10   Link #420
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Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
A Counter Guardian can exist in all time axis, but their 'memories' accumulate just like any other human. They don't always know all of their memories or knowledge.

Before UBW, you could say that Archer was in a state of despair. He continued to fulfill his ideals faithfully but his heart was dead. After UBW he would still be a Counter Guardian that is doomed to fight forever - hence the meaning 'that you will not be saved' by Rin - but it is mentioned that the original Archer - the one removed from the time axis to exist at all time - felt a sudden calmness and was no longer plagued by his despair, even though he could not explain or remember why.
Incorrect. Counter Guardians are a type of Heroic Spirit. They function exactly like Heroic Spirit, except they heed Alaya's call, while famed Heroic Spirits don't necessarily do so.

Archer will just have a "copy" of the record of the War with him in the throne, but without the revelation he experienced as a Servant.

No matter how you love for it to happen, he will not be saved.

He even stated it himself:
Quote:
But he earns a small answer.
The answer is only for this summoning. It is a meaningless thing that he will forget the next time he is summoned.
But there is nothing to regret.
It is something that has already been built up, something that the boy will build using all his life.

There is only one thing coming and going through his mind.
There is regret.
He does not know how many times he wished to redo things.
Heroic spirit Emiya will forever curse this end.
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