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Old 2011-10-19, 05:22   Link #41
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
I nominate Ichigo.
awww...i still have a soft spot for that idiot. i'd rather see him get some character development, like an interesting personality perhaps, he badly needs it.
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Old 2011-10-19, 05:42   Link #42
felix
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
awww...i still have a soft spot for that idiot. i'd rather see him get some character development, like an interesting personality perhaps, he badly needs it.
Sadly I don't think Kubo is up for it. Every time it was required he's done everything in his power to avoid it. From overpowered powers so he doesn't need it, training, development of other characters, scapegoat inner-selfs (we got something like 3 so far), time-training, clear one-dimensional objectives (get there, defeat X, save Y). It's getting ludicrous to be honest. Going by the current plot we're going back to "overpowered powers for character development" again.

I'm more then certain at this point that Ichigo along with Aizen are just the embodiment of Kubo's ego (literally) since the difference in depth to other characters is just too damn great and the stupidity of those characters is pretty much typical for such a writing mistake. When a writer makes a character he or she identifies with the possibility of character development becomes directly proportionate to ones mental state, meaning they can't evolve the characters past their own views of themselves, hence why it's god damn sin to do it. Not to mention bias towards them is inevitably and so you get these fanfiction-quality garbage writing for a story.

But hey... pretty pictures. It's at least fun to watch the slowest sinking titanic in history go down.

(what are the rankings for it at the moment BTW?)
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Old 2011-10-19, 06:00   Link #43
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Sadly I don't think Kubo is up for it. Every time it was required he's done everything in his power to avoid it. From overpowered powers so he doesn't need it, training, development of other characters, scapegoat inner-selfs (we got something like 3 so far), time-training, clear one-dimensional objectives (get there, defeat X, save Y). It's getting ludicrous to be honest. Going by the current plot we're going back to "overpowered powers for character development" again.

I'm more then certain at this point that Ichigo along with Aizen are just the embodiment of Kubo's ego (literally) since the difference in depth to other characters is just too damn great and the stupidity of those characters is pretty much typical for such a writing mistake. When a writer makes a character he or she identifies with the possibility of character development becomes directly proportionate to ones mental state, meaning they can't evolve the characters past their own views of themselves, hence why it's god damn sin to do it. Not to mention bias towards them is inevitably and so you get these fanfiction-quality garbage writing for a story.

But hey... pretty pictures. It's at least fun to watch the slowest sinking titanic in history go down.

(what are the rankings for it at the moment BTW?)
ouch! i think you just psycho-analyzed kubo there. but i think you're right. each and everyone of these characters are a part of kubo, he has a little bit of himself in them. the first rule in writing is to write what you know and then you expand by doing some research, etc. i doubt any writer could write a character he/she couldn't totally relate to, otherwise it would be plain torment just to write about them.

i've always thought that bleach is a reflection of kubo's personality. from what i've read about him, he seems to be quite a rock fan. he even named bleach after his favorite nirvana album. i guess that's where his dark brooding rockstar-type characters come from. i think he sees himself as a badass. but that's just my observation.

i also doubt an ichigo-personality-development but not because kubo couldn't do it rather he doesn't know how. i think he has gotten so used to just giving ichigo a power-up every time he needs some "development" that he no longer knows how to write some character depth into him. i'm gonna get neg-repped by ichigo fans again but i don't care. i like the guy but he's starting to really annoy me. that too might be another reason for me to quit bleach. the moment i start loathing ichigo, i would probably drop this series.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2011-10-19 at 06:29.
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Old 2011-10-19, 06:23   Link #44
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What would it take to make you quit following Bleach?

Orihime getting kidnapped again
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Old 2011-10-19, 06:27   Link #45
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Ichigo x Ishida
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Old 2011-10-19, 06:43   Link #46
felix
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
the first rule in writing is to write what you know and then you expand by doing some research, etc.
I'm pretty sure the first rule is know what you shouldn't be writing.
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Old 2011-10-19, 12:33   Link #47
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At this point, I'm essentially reading it out of a kind of masochism, the same way I read Naruto, Kimi no Iru Machi and legendarily bad fan-fiction like "Doom: Repercussions of Evil." In order for me to stop reading Bleach, it would need to become mediocre, which it skipped over in its transition from potentially interesting Urban Fantasy to laughably terrible Fighting Manga.
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Old 2011-10-19, 21:16   Link #48
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What would make me quit reading Bleach? Dunno what to be honest. Sure, I dislike how Kubo is handling the fights making the pacing slow but somehow I want to see how Kubo ends Bleach... If it ever ends.

Plus I'm interested in Isshin's story.
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Old 2011-10-20, 06:08   Link #49
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that was dope!!!! I thought you didn't like Aizen
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Depends really. Shipping issues can still end up being related to reasons why you'd stop following Bleach. So just use your own judgment to decide if a shipping discussion feels like it's getting too far off topic.
Thanks. I will keep that in mind


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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
I would lose any respect I have for him if he went a route just because it was more fan appealing (editor pressure on general story not withstanding). He should do what any author should and do what he wants.
Like I said, I doubt it in the first place but executive meddling can be a bitch it could end up like Urusei Yatsura
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I don't plan on guessing, but if you want to say so, you're welcome to.
I hadn't planned on it. I am just wondering why you found what I said "almost hard to believe" without knowing my reasons. You inferred I was lying, you know...
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
I think he could have been handled a bit better than the Espada 9 fight (like if he was actually Espada 9). Suffice it to say I don't think the Kaien story has any bearing on what decision he may or may not make as far as current possibilities are concerned (not anymore), or maybe it just seems way too disproportionate in relation to whatever theme Bleach is in general
No if you compare Rukia's one-sided love for Kaien it's the same as Orihime's one-sided love for Ichigo...the exact same thing. Also barring a confession to a dead body, Rukia has done everything that Orihime has done that expresses her love for Ichigo. Orihime is an expression of love, yes but she also validates IchiRuki and I am not talking about the emo moment before her Matsu went Yuri on us. So that's why you missed my point totally..because I didn't explain what I meant because it would become a shipping debate and it's not really the thread for it because I would say
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
- which is why I think the possibilities are likely to be Toriyama styled.
I find that funny you should say that , when Toriyama style is "instant" couples yet Kubo developing the romance on orihime romantic feelings is the basis of your confidence and the reason you "suspect" your team will win. You can't have it both ways, you can't say there is no romance and Kubo will channel Toriyama. Then put all your confidence in the "romantic" feelings kubo would show --but I'd rather not get into that

See where I am going? See where this could go? I love Bleach and I love IchiRuki because as of right now it's everything that IchiHime is not. If I saw more than "Inoue I WILL SAVE YOU and everyone else because I want to protect a MOUNTAIN of people" then I would ship IchiHime. But as of right now IchiRuki makes me squee and even if it didn't happen or it Kubo dropped a bomb and said it will never happen, that's not enough to make me quit. The character I actually read the manga for, would have to disappear for that to happen. Otherwise I am never quitting, because I LOVE Kubo Tite and he's stuck with me for the rest of his life
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Moving on, I think Chad should have an arc..
Whoops I spoke to soon,
NOW THAT might make me quit after all. I vote NO

Chad is the most useless and uninteresting character in all Bleachdom

I would rather be strapped to a chair and have a someone with a really bad speech impediment--like stuttering and getting tongue-tied read the entire Szayel fight over and over and over, while looking in the mirror so it's backwards, and playing 50 Tyson songs, for the entire duration of Aizen's jail term, before I sit through a second of a Chad-centric arc.
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Like a lot of people have pointed out, Bleach is a really character-driven story. Even if it's weak on plot, it still has many characters with appeal and potential. The later arcs are skimpy on character development compared to the earlier ones, but the prospect of seeing the characters that drew you into the manga is enough to keep reading every week. That and the easy accessibility.

The members of the Gotei 13 are definitely are the cornerstone for me though. Even though Ichigo, Chad, Orihime and Ishida are the main characters, they just aren't that interesting on their own. If there were ever a point where it was clear that Rukia, the Captains and VC's were absolutely gone for good I think that'd be it for me.



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Originally Posted by Langus View Post
I've already given up the anime so I don't see giving up the manga that far off. Once you stop reading chapters and realize that you have missed absolutely nothing, it's not all that hard to give it a pass from week to week. I'm just glad I don't pay for any of it. What an epic waste of money that would be.

Now what would it take for me to drop the series completely? More of what Kubo is doing now. I don't care about the Fullbringers. I don't care about these Captain vs Fullbringer fights where they are clearly getting pwned and it's plainly obvious they will be defeated in short order. What was the point? It accomplished absolutely nothing. That is what I can't stand. If it's not contributing to the story or character development, it's wasting my time.

Kubo has ignored every character with an interesting back story in favour of meaningless fights. Urahara, Isshin, Yoruichi, hell even Grimm & Nel -> these characters I actually somewhat give a sh*t about. Ichigo's friends have become boring and stagnant. No development there. Ichigo is just about the stupidest and whiniest hero I have ever seen in a shonen manga. Kubo has even managed to turn Rukia into "just another character" like Renji has become.

The only reason I kept reading after SS was to see how things with Gin would play out. Then Kubo killed him off. I held on afterwards in the hopes that Kubo would reveal something (anything!) about Urahara or Isshin to keep my interest or reveal their motives. Instead we got a lame and pointless fullbringer arc featuring more wasted panels and Ichigo whining, then "finding himself". Fabulous.

I may pick it up again once this arc is over, but for now I've given it up. I've really only been coming back to the forums for the odd character discussion because that can actually be interesting. Except that now Kubo has killed off almost all the interesting characters. Nice move, d*ck.
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That is interesting, because I am almost 100% opposite to you in my preferences. I enjoy the Gotei 13 and the bankais/shikais as much as anyone, but I find those characters incredibly stagnant. They have awesome powers, distinctive personalities and cool fights, but really, how much can Kubo realistically develop the characters of captains who have been fighting for centuries? I am not bashing Kubo for that - rather there simply isn't much room for further exposition, especially with the most potentially complex captains in Tousen and Gin unceremoniously killed off, Shinji sidelined, and Urahara's mystery not really examined.

On the other hand, while Chad/Orihime/Ishida and even Ichigo are rather uninteresting now, that didn't have to be the case if Kubo had written this better. Ishida started the series as Ichigo's rival and near-equal, the last quincy and the only character besides Ichigo to defeat a Gotei 13 captain!! Yet now, he's comic relief. Chad, Ichigo's right-hand man and fearless backup relegated to a joke. And what about Orihime or Renji? The supporting cast of a shounen is the emotional backbone; watching their development mirror that of the hero is one of the inspirational motifs. Seeing them mature into characters worthy to stand besides and against the elite of the Gotei 13 could have been really fun and an epic journey.

And that's where I think the Gotei 13 would have been very effective, serving to give benchmarks and broader context to the development of the main cast, just as the admirals/pirate emperors serve in One Piece, for example. As the core focus of the story, I have a hard time caring whether they live or die.

If I don't see more out of the main characters (non-Ichigo!) soon, I'd probably drop Bleach.
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Bleach is a story about a boy who meets a Shinigami and his life changes as a result of that encounter and his becoming Shinigami. Sure some characters are stagnate, and not developed--especially the nakama. Because they're importance is Ichigo needs people to save. Ichigo needs people that he can't save so he can break down and do the emo thing and we need fodder to use so the important characters can strut their stuff.

You will not see any back story that doesn't develop the plot or Ichigo's character. He's the main character Amir do you really think that the plot won't revolve around him? Why read it in the first place if you're just going to get mad when the plot focuses on the main character

and Langus why do you think the "fights are pointless"? I have never seen a pointless fight and I am not being flip either. Care to discuss that with me? I see people say that a lot but I don't understand "why" they say that. Can someone enlighten me

Last edited by Lord of Pandemonium; 2011-10-20 at 06:19.
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Old 2011-10-20, 08:01   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
and Langus why do you think the "fights are pointless"? I have never seen a pointless fight and I am not being flip either. Care to discuss that with me?
Not particularly. This thread isn't a debate. It's a place for people to air their grievances.
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Old 2011-10-20, 11:40   Link #51
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It's a fighting manga with pretty pictures, if I wanted plot I'd read something like a Russian novel. What I will say is that would make it more enjoyable would be perhaps to have Rukia have a bankai or be able to see Youroichi's finally.
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Old 2011-10-20, 14:47   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
I hadn't planned on it. I am just wondering why you found what I said "almost hard to believe" without knowing my reasons. You inferred I was lying, you know...
Uh...
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
Disclaimer: I DO NOT SUPPORT ICHIHIME OR RENIRUKI I actually HATE both of those ships and would wipe out all traces of them if I could
Quote:
No if you compare Rukia's one-sided love for Kaien it's the same as Orihime's...So that's why you missed my point totally..because I didn't explain what I meant
You kinda did explain, enough for me to see what you were getting at. It just so happens that I disagree.
Quote:
when Toriyama style is "instant" couples yet Kubo developing the romance on orihime romantic feelings is the basis of your confidence and the reason you "suspect" your team will win. You can't have it both ways, you can't say there is no romance and Kubo will channel Toriyama. Then put all your confidence in the "romantic" feelings kubo would show
Actually I was probably too quick in saying "instantaneously" (isn't that a fun sentence). Since Chichi met Goku it really was apparent that she liked him years before the actual marriage, she's been about as relevant to the plot as Orihime.

Quote:
See where I am going? See where this could go? I love Bleach and I love IchiRuki because as of right now it's everything that IchiHime is not. If I saw more than "Inoue I WILL SAVE YOU and everyone else because I want to protect a MOUNTAIN of people" then I would ship IchiHime.
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
Disclaimer: I DO NOT SUPPORT ICHIHIME OR RENIRUKI I actually HATE both of those ships and would wipe out all traces of them if I could
Do you see now why it's hard to believe what you say? But to be fair, I feel the same about another non-Ichiruki ship
Quote:
Chad is the most useless and uninteresting character in all Bleachdom
Unfortunately, that's the way he was developed. I want Kubo to give him a fighting chance. It's kind of like KT brought a Hokutou no Ken character into this (in comparison) peaceful world.
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Old 2011-10-22, 01:19   Link #53
Lord of Pandemonium
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Not particularly. This thread isn't a debate. It's a place for people to air their grievances.
It's a "discussion thread" so I want to discuss it, not debate you about it. It's not something you can debate because it's an opinion. I can only agree or disagree. Now if it was a fight or something, then yeah you could debate it . I am not going to twist your arm but it would be nice to know

P. S...it's not a thread to air your grievances. It's a thread that asks why you still read it if you have so many grievances. Not the same thing...
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Old 2011-10-24, 18:55   Link #54
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I probably wont stop reading Bleach, But i had stop watching Bleach anime series because I dont like the fillers.
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Old 2011-10-24, 19:06   Link #55
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I probably wont stop reading Bleach, But i had stop watching Bleach anime series because I dont like the fillers.
Why not just want the manga material animated? It's what a lot of us here do.
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Old 2011-10-24, 20:17   Link #56
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I know that I said it many times already but I'll say it again, fillers are the best part of Bleach right now. Manga material can get washed in a toilet. If Kubo is not going to improve things, I will lose all respect to those who will keep up with it for next 10 years.
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Old 2011-10-28, 08:47   Link #57
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Sigh. Honestly, if I haven't dropped Bleach by now, after the endless asspulls, plothax and plotholes, put on a bus characters (many one dimensional), dropped or ignored plot threads, painfully predictable and repetitive fights, and just sheer disappointments all around, I can't see myself ever dropping it.
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Old 2011-10-28, 09:32   Link #58
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Sigh. Honestly, if I haven't dropped Bleach by now, after the endless asspulls, plothax and plotholes, put on a bus characters (many one dimensional), dropped or ignored plot threads, painfully predictable and repetitive fights, and just sheer disappointments all around, I can't see myself ever dropping it.

:P
You sure your not just picky as hell?

Pick any anime and I can point out a lot of stuff....exccept scryed..and trigun...and blassreiter..and TTGL..you know what I mean
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Old 2011-10-31, 05:30   Link #59
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alright im new here and not very involved when it comes to plot and character developement and such, but i was thinking about it and realized what would make me stop watching bleach is if Ichigo permenantly lost his powers. now i know alot of people are annoyed with his attitude and whatever else, but i personally am still at the stage where massive power leaps> character development.

Bring on new bankais and fights lol.

also i believe itd be cool if ichigo died and went to Soul Society and went yhrough legit training like kido and such rather than just dumbly firing getsugatenshou.

make espada allies. im a die hard ulqiorra fan sorry lol.

also Chad is useless pointless waste of space. orihime is a whinebag. and ishida....idfk.

sorry if this is random im on my ipod
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Old 2011-10-31, 19:21   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Langus View Post
I've already given up the anime so I don't see giving up the manga that far off. Once you stop reading chapters and realize that you have missed absolutely nothing, it's not all that hard to give it a pass from week to week. I'm just glad I don't pay for any of it. What an epic waste of money that would be.

Now what would it take for me to drop the series completely? More of what Kubo is doing now. I don't care about the Fullbringers. I don't care about these Captain vs Fullbringer fights where they are clearly getting pwned and it's plainly obvious they will be defeated in short order. What was the point? It accomplished absolutely nothing. That is what I can't stand. If it's not contributing to the story or character development, it's wasting my time.

Kubo has ignored every character with an interesting back story in favour of meaningless fights. Urahara, Isshin, Yoruichi, hell even Grimm & Nel -> these characters I actually somewhat give a sh*t about. Ichigo's friends have become boring and stagnant. No development there. Ichigo is just about the stupidest and whiniest hero I have ever seen in a shonen manga. Kubo has even managed to turn Rukia into "just another character" like Renji has become.

The only reason I kept reading after SS was to see how things with Gin would play out. Then Kubo killed him off. I held on afterwards in the hopes that Kubo would reveal something (anything!) about Urahara or Isshin to keep my interest or reveal their motives. Instead we got a lame and pointless fullbringer arc featuring more wasted panels and Ichigo whining, then "finding himself". Fabulous.

I may pick it up again once this arc is over, but for now I've given it up. I've really only been coming back to the forums for the odd character discussion because that can actually be interesting. Except that now Kubo has killed off almost all the interesting characters. Nice move, d*ck.
I came here to post. Then I saw this, and it's basically what I was going to say, so I'm just gonna quote it.
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