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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 27 42.86%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 34.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 17.46%
7 out of 10 : Good 0 0%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 3.17%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.59%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-10-23, 02:33   Link #221
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post

Why? Because her inhibitions have been artificially removed without her consent.

There is no "you subconsciously wanted this underneath those inhibitions, so you actually deserved it" defense. Inhibitions are part of us, and are not somehow invalid or subject to being dismissed as unimportant by other people. Having our inhibitions removed does not "reveal your true self" or any of that crap. Drugging someone to remove their inhibitions is an act of violation of the victim's self determination, and driven by a desire to dominate and control another person.

It's not any surprise it tends to be combined with rape.
For me, this is the key, central point in all of this discussion.

Does Ringo have moral inhibitions that would cause her to not agree to have sex with Yuri if not for the effects of the drug that was given to her?

Well, Yuri herself must suspect that an attempt at actual seduction on a non-drugged Ringo wouldn't work, or she wouldn't bother with the drug (not without Ringo agreeing to take the drug, anyway). That implies that Yuri thinks that Ringo does have such moral inhibitions.


Note: An actual seduction would be Yuri sweet-talking Ringo, probably asking things like "Have you ever wondered what it would be like to have sex with another woman?" and making suggestions like "Let yourself go, and spend a wild night with me. It'll make you feel much better, and help you forget about that foolish boy that turns down gorgeous girls with charming personalities".

Now, truthfully, I'm not so sure that this wouldn't have worked, and if it did, of course it wouldn't be rape then.


But by using the methods that she has, Yuri is taking a real risk (or rather, would have been, if she had seen it through all the way). Without consent clearly given in a sober state of mind, and with Ringo's moral inhibitions lowered without consent given here either (admittedly, this is guesswork on what I think the effects of the drug are - i.e. similar to alcohol), whether or not a rape occurred is basically up to "morning after" Ringo.

At a practical level, I think risingstar3110 is probably right when he writes "Some will trust that as long as the partner approve the idea in the end, then the forceful advance at the beginning can be justified. Because to them after all a rape is not a rape if no one acknowledge it to be one (another philosophical debate)."

If "morning after" Ringo doesn't feel violated against her will, then well, she doesn't feel violated against her will. But if she does feel violated, then she has been, because she wasn't given an opportunity to object to sex while in a non-drugged state of mind with her moral inhibitions being able to play a role (even if not the decisive one) in the decision that she makes.

Ringo has a right to her moral beliefs, and she has a right to not have them taken away from her (by drugs) without her consent. Anything Ringo is lead into doing while her moral inhibitions have been taken away from her by force can't be considered consensual unless "morning after" sober Ringo says "Well, I don't know if I'd have agreed to that if not for the strange state of mind I was in, but I'm kind of glad I had that experience with Yuri..." or something to that effect.


So, as should be clear now, this discussion is almost entirely hypothetical and probably unprovable, since Yuri didn't see it through, so Ringo won't need to determine for herself if she felt violated or not.

However, the whole situation certainly looks very bad, for a variety of reasons (adult doing this to a teenager, teenager already in a vulnerable state of mind due to a recent romantic rejection of sorts, bondage playing a role in it all without clear-headed consent to that in particular, etc...). So I don't think someone should be faulted for viewing it as attempted rape.


Anyway, that's likely my last word on this particular topic.
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Old 2011-10-23, 04:24   Link #222
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
For me, this is the key, central point in all of this discussion.

Does Ringo have moral inhibitions that would cause her to not agree to have sex with Yuri if not for the effects of the drug that was given to her?
.
I'd say: her motivation to stick with the "fate" per the diary decreased or outright diminished one her connection to the diary itself was severed. So, no, she would not have complied.
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Old 2011-10-23, 06:13   Link #223
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Nice development. But i'm little dissapoint cuz "coincidence" Shoma was next to them..
Well , Natsume was predictable.
Momoka with Pink hair hmm.
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Old 2011-10-23, 06:16   Link #224
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Ringo kinda got saved, but she sure was lucky Shoma was next door.
What a weird coincidence.
No wonder Yuri ended all messed up... her dad sure forced his way of thinking on her.
Interesting how she knew Momoka since they were kids, that's probably why she was after the diary when she saw Ringo with it.
Ping pong at the end was kinda interesting.
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Old 2011-10-23, 07:48   Link #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
In this case, on one side, most notably Kirarakim stand was on "[I]No, it's not. She was still heavily affected by the drug,so her consent or even what she said on the phone was influenced by the drug and Yuri.
Okay first of all it's not most notably Kirarakim. I might have been one of the first people to say this but perhaps you should read through the thread and you will see it's most notably the majority at this point.

As for blaming Shouma I don't really care. The only point I made is Ringo DID NOT give consent for Yuri to have sex with her because yes she was still under the drugs.
Thankfully Yuri did not go through with it.

edit: And no I don't want to keep discussing this as I thought the discussion ended yesterday. But I don't like how my name was brought up like I was the main person keeping the argument going.
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Old 2011-10-23, 08:07   Link #226
Irenicus
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You guys are saying Shouma being there is predictable; I say this is a hilarious joke on the audience's expectations.

Did everyone completely forgot how just about everybody was predicting that it was going to be Natsume saving the day (or alternatively that Ringo would get it after all), and nobody was even suggesting anything about Shouma?

Moreover, that he totally didn't succeed because of No. 2's fault and Natsume ended up being the savior after all? This is no deus ex Shouma at work you know.


On the episode itself, I'm just thoroughly disturbed by the scenes with the father. I know they are meant to be metaphorical, precisely because the creators don't want to spell it out what exactly happened -- but, wow, was Yuri herself a rape victim?
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Old 2011-10-23, 09:00   Link #227
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commenter at Random Curiosity
Sanetoshi’s comments especially highlighted the fact that some children are stuck in the family trap: no matter how they are mistreated, family is family and you must love it. THAT is the sick part, THAT is one of the central messages here, and not discuss the implications of genital remodeling.

I really liked this comment and agree it probably was the central theme of the episode. Obviously Sanetoshi was talking to Kanba but it implied to Yuri & her love for her father too (and in general a child has to love their parents).

But can we say this is a theme of the whole story? Yuri's father was the most messed up we've seen so far.

But we have the Takakura parents who committed a terrible crime yet in many ways the children who have not run away from society have to be the ones to stand up for their parents crimes (and possibly in Kanba's case do something much worse).

Ringo's parents did not mean to but they put her in the middle of their bickering relationship and this affected her outlook on life.

Well actually I won't say it's just loving your parents because unlike the Yuri situation I don't think Ringo and the Takakura siblings have any reason not to love their parents. But I think they have a reason to say "you messed up as parents"

Certainly I think what we owe family just because they are family is an important theme that runs through the series.
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:09   Link #228
klare
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the legendary Momoka finally appear! she looks like a pink-haired loli Ringo...

Natsume ninja? ping pong bat can counter that slingshot? the origin of Tokyo Tower?

and Yuri's father just made into the long list of most hated characters in this show
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:46   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post

I don't think Ringo and the Takakura siblings have any reason not to love their parents. But I think they have a reason to say "you messed up as parents"
Being messed up parents can be a reason to not love them although we all see none of the siblings thought so. But then I suspect that Sanetoshi might just want to initiate that thought into Kanba, making him feel fed up with both his parents and Himari for whatever reason.


About Yuri's body secret, can it be inside of her body instead of outside? Sorry my english is too bad to use the right word but maybe it's something like she couldn't have a baby or maybe some of her internal organs did not function as it should have which resulted in something not so good for an actress..?
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:49   Link #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Okay first of all it's not most notably Kirarakim. I might have been one of the first people to say this but perhaps you should read through the thread and you will see it's most notably the majority at this point.

As for blaming Shouma I don't really care. The only point I made is Ringo DID NOT give consent for Yuri to have sex with her because yes she was still under the drugs.
Thankfully Yuri did not go through with it.

edit: And no I don't want to keep discussing this as I thought the discussion ended yesterday. But I don't like how my name was brought up like I was the main person keeping the argument going.
I think you are reading too much on it. If we count the number of posts on the topic, i expect either you or Kazu-kun will be up on top. Hence "most notably"

And we can't take a random group out to survey on majority anyway


@pessimistic_freak: actually anything weird about an actress could get her into a scandal and kill her popularity off. Even common things like "don't have a toe" would kill her career. But in this case, maybe her womb was physically damaged and can no longer bear children? Purely guess here
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Old 2011-10-23, 13:18   Link #231
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
And we can't take a random group out to survey on majority anyway
I meant the majority replying in this thread and yes that's pretty easy to see.

If I had the "most" posts it's because I started in the discussion earlier than some people, but I also ended earlier than some people too.
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Old 2011-10-23, 15:53   Link #232
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
You guys are saying Shouma being there is predictable; I say this is a hilarious joke on the audience's expectations.
Yeah this is why I didn't take issue with it because it was a rather funny joke. Not only did Yuri decide she didn't want to go through with it (No saving needed to be done anymore), but Shouma knocked himself out and thus failed to "save" Ringo. No deus ex Shouma here indeed .
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Old 2011-10-23, 20:16   Link #233
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klare View Post
the legendary Momoka finally appear! she looks like a pink-haired loli Ringo...

Natsume ninja? ping pong bat can counter that slingshot? the origin of Tokyo Tower?

and Yuri's father just made into the long list of most hated characters in this show
Does Yuri's dad remind anyone else of the abusive dad (Kirameki Mikawa) from
Shigofumi?:

http://myanimelist.net/character.php?id=9536

http://www.animevice.com/kirameki-mikawa/18-16766/
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Old 2011-10-23, 21:35   Link #234
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Sorry if this has been asked, but did Ringo get saved or not? Because after Yuri gave Natsume the fake diary, the scene resumes with Ringo fully clothed and sleeping by Shouma. Now I don't understand why Yuri would suddenly stop what she set out to do, even with Natsume's interruption, which after all was thwarted...
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Old 2011-10-23, 22:28   Link #235
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Just when I thought it couldn't get much insane, it outdoes itself. What disturbing imagery, probably the most disturbing in the recent memory. Wow they really don't mess around. I mean this is how you make a compelling series. True there are some coincidences here and there but it more than makes up for it with the characters actually more than cardboard.
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Old 2011-10-23, 22:30   Link #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
Does Yuri's dad remind anyone else of the abusive dad (Kirameki Mikawa) from
Shigofumi?:

http://myanimelist.net/character.php?id=9536

http://www.animevice.com/kirameki-mikawa/18-16766/
Yes, we pointed out already how similar the two situations were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Sorry if this has been asked, but did Ringo get saved or not? Because after Yuri gave Natsume the fake diary, the scene resumes with Ringo fully clothed and sleeping by Shouma. Now I don't understand why Yuri would suddenly stop what she set out to do, even with Natsume's interruption, which after all was thwarted...
There are several theories... if you wish to pick them among everything else in the previous 10 pages
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Old 2011-10-24, 16:12   Link #237
ele-ene-ene
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
mm, hairs don't match much, but comparing with the previous kanba and shouma falling, both don't exactly match too, but kanba is the most near of them
yes, but misteriuos classmate is very much like Kanba
has the same attitude with the girls


Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
and if the way to wear the uniform can be taken as an element too:
kanba's: jacket open, necktie out
shouma's: jacket closed, necktie in
shadow's: jacket open, necktie in
the shadow in OP1 probably was kanba :/
misteriuos classmate: jacket open, necktie ???

Spoiler for misterious classmate:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
On Shouma's friend, I think he's just there for comedic effect.
most likely

but I still I have the impression that boys are three, as Triple H
I have no evidence, simple matter of symmetry



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post


Not to throw any water on the second diary theories, but I just got this joke, and thought it was pretty funny. What the katakana on that book there actually say is "EROSU", or "eros" for English. Notice also the "18" label. So that's actually a porn book there that No. 1 was getting all excited over, lol.


Thanks for the clarification and translation.
Surely you are right, Esmeralda and No. 1 had the "second day" in an earlier preview

Spoiler for Esmeralda, No. 1 and the "second day":


But there are some suggestive similarities

Spoiler for momoka and tabuki:
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Old 2011-10-24, 16:38   Link #238
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The silhouette matches Kanba, it doesn't match Kanba & Shouma's friend at all in my opinion.

However I do now completely support the theory that their friend is an agent of fate who helps bring Shouma and Ringo together. But then I also think he is there for comic relief as well.
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Old 2011-10-24, 21:15   Link #239
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Theory: Momoka never died that day. She just got suck into the hat.
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Old 2011-10-24, 23:38   Link #240
ele-ene-ene
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Yuri's father' attitude (I don't love you because you're ugly) affects Yuri's self-esteem. I think Yuri's wounds are a metaphorical reference to bulimia / anorexia, or something.

calling people "fat", especially children, is like nailing them a chisel, the wound is not visible but in this way to some people were led to the death.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Now I don't understand why Yuri would suddenly stop what she set out to do, even with Natsume's interruption, which after all was thwarted...

Because Ringo was never truly at risk (I think)

• Yuri had just had sex with her partner actress
• Yuri was prepared for her confrontation with Natsume Yuri put to sleep to Ringo so it does not a nuisance, not to rape her (Yuri would be at a disadvantage if Natsume appears while she is "busy" with Ringo)
• The establishment that hosts them is inconvenient , the “walls” are very thin, all can be heard. Employees can appear suddenly in the room. And Yuri is well known in the onsen, any incident becomes a scandal that would ruin her career

The XXX film style mise en scene and histrionics (remember, Yuri is an actress) was an elaborate display for Shoma's benefit, mostly


.

Last edited by ele-ene-ene; 2011-10-24 at 23:56.
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