AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-06-16, 21:52   Link #2201
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
The notion that people go to war and kill because they don't understand each other, which the Japanese always like to put in their shows, is a giant load of bs. We go to war because the other guy has something we want, land, natural resources, technology, etc.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-16, 22:06   Link #2202
cyberdemon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The notion that people go to war and kill because they don't understand each other, which the Japanese always like to put in their shows, is a giant load of bs. We go to war because the other guy has something we want, land, natural resources, technology, etc.
Or just that they do understand each other and job plain disagree.
__________________
cyberdemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-16, 22:07   Link #2203
brightman
Ancient Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The notion that people go to war and kill because they don't understand each other, which the Japanese always like to put in their shows, is a giant load of bs. We go to war because the other guy has something we want, land, natural resources, technology, etc.
Except its a universal concept that's been around for a bit, not really a Japanese concept.

The famous quote (as seen in Gundam 00) from Ralph Waldo Emerson captures it quite well, "Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding."

And this usage of "understanding" implies "empathy", which means a ton more than just knowing what other guy wants.
__________________
Copyright 2014 Brightman
brightman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-16, 22:40   Link #2204
Dr. Casey
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
AND HOW EXACTLY IS AN UNDERSTANDING ENDING BAD?

Would you rather have a full scale genocide you sick f***?
I think you might be getting just a little too aggressive over the proposed annihalation of a fictional race.
Dr. Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-16, 22:51   Link #2205
GundamFan1989
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The notion that people go to war and kill because they don't understand each other, which the Japanese always like to put in their shows, is a giant load of bs. We go to war because the other guy has something we want, land, natural resources, technology, etc.
My College professor was a colonel in the military and he said that understanding was the key to ending a war and that knowledge without empathy is more like a weapon that can be used to exploit the enemy and read their tactics and that to truly understand each other the people must truly interact and exchange ideas.
GundamFan1989 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 01:41   Link #2206
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman View Post
"Understanding" as a concept is just not delved upon at all in the universe
I think the Yzak-Dearka-Miriallia subplot, the Cagalli-Uzumi talk, and even the Stella-Shinn-Kira subplot, are some examples where the idea of understanding is brought up, at least, in one form or another.

In the first two, they made a point that, while you may be at war with your enemies, they're also human beings who have their own families and loved ones and that they're also suffering because of the war.

In the Stella-Shinn-Kira situation, lack of understanding plays a part in that whole tragedy, although it may not be the primary cause, from Stella and Kira only seeing each other as threats while Shinn only seeing Stella as a victim.

But anyway, as I said before, neither SEED nor Destiny ends with understanding being achieved, as far as the big picture is concerned. In fact, so called "understanding" leads Rau to want to destroy the human race in SEED and Kira to actually say he was willing to kill someone, namely Durandal, in Destiny.

Last edited by monster; 2012-06-17 at 02:42.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 06:32   Link #2207
brightman
Ancient Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
They never explicitly bring up "understanding". At least not in the way other Gundam shows bring them up.

Your examples (except Cagalli-Uzumi, which I fail to see where the understanding come from) do show cases of people interacting with enemies and either seeing their point of view or not, but the show doesn't really emphasize those concepts the way it emphasize others I mentioned.
__________________
Copyright 2014 Brightman
brightman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 07:04   Link #2208
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Your examples (except Cagalli-Uzumi, which I fail to see where the understanding come from)
It's when Uzumi was telling Cagalli that if she were to kill someone their relative would kill her, and so on. It's basically to point out that they're not the only ones feeling the loss, and if everybody resorts to revenge, the fighting would just escalate.
Quote:
but the show doesn't really emphasize those concepts the way it emphasize others I mentioned.
That, I think, is because the show presents understanding/tolerance as some ideal end goal that is still not achievable. So they don't want to overemphasize it, but still have it in the show in some form just to point to its existence as that ideal.

To tie it back to AGE, that's why I don't really care whether achieving some sort of understanding is how they end the show. It doesn't necessarily mean everything is resolved.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 07:38   Link #2209
brightman
Ancient Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
It's when Uzumi was telling Cagalli that if she were to kill someone their relative would kill her, and so on. It's basically to point out that they're not the only ones feeling the loss, and if everybody resorts to revenge, the fighting would just escalate.
That's his argument against using revenge as a motivation. I don't think he supplement that with anything about understanding. Uzumi was always about using force when force is required to defend oneself, so he's not a pacifist at all.

Quote:
That, I think, is because the show presents understanding/tolerance as some ideal end goal that is still not achievable. So they don't want to overemphasize it, but still have it in the show in some form just to point to its existence as that ideal.
First, understanding is not tolerance. Totally different concepts. And I don't think you're using either of them in the right context.

Just because a guy like Dearka switches sides because he sees the good guys' point of view that he's working for genocidal bad guys, and he likes a girl and wants to protect her, doesn't mean any form of understanding is reached.

As for Shinn/Kira/Stella, same thing there. Shinn sees that Stella is being treated terribly by the bad guys, develops a brother complex and wants to protect her. Kira doesn't know who the heck she is and kills her. Stella's mental capacity isn't even enough to reach understanding with anyone either way.
__________________
Copyright 2014 Brightman
brightman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 10:52   Link #2210
Meltyred
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman View Post
That's his argument against using revenge as a motivation. I don't think he supplement that with anything about understanding. Uzumi was always about using force when force is required to defend oneself, so he's not a pacifist at all.


First, understanding is not tolerance. Totally different concepts. And I don't think you're using either of them in the right context.

Just because a guy like Dearka switches sides because he sees the good guys' point of view that he's working for genocidal bad guys, and he likes a girl and wants to protect her, doesn't mean any form of understanding is reached.

As for Shinn/Kira/Stella, same thing there. Shinn sees that Stella is being treated terribly by the bad guys, develops a brother complex and wants to protect her. Kira doesn't know who the heck she is and kills her. Stella's mental capacity isn't even enough to reach understanding with anyone either way.
Pacifism never works out in gundam.
*Looks at Gundam Wing*
Meltyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 12:16   Link #2211
brightman
Ancient Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
Pacifism never works out in gundam.
*Looks at Gundam Wing*
Apparently it did in Gundam 00...

But of course pacifism wouldn't work in a franchise that relies on wars being fought.
__________________
Copyright 2014 Brightman
brightman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 15:14   Link #2212
LoweGear
Device Meister
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of the usual flamenco
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Apparently it did in Gundam 00...
Pacifism is the furthest from working in 00. Note that the problems that was solved in 00 came about as a result of the war that Celestial Being incited. Hell, the movie has Setsuna trying out the pacifist route with the ELS in the Qan[T], only for Graham to reprimand him on it by essentially telling him that he'll never get anywhere if he doesn't fight. Celestial Being is as far away from being pacifists as you can get in a Gundam - if they want something solved, they put their money where their mouths are and exterminate the problems through armed intervention.
__________________

On Simple Solutions: "I bought the airline. It seemed neater."
LoweGear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 15:24   Link #2213
brightman
Ancient Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Pacifism is the furthest from working in 00. Note that the problems that was solved in 00 came about as a result of the war that Celestial Being incited. Hell, the movie has Setsuna trying out the pacifist route with the ELS in the Qan[T], only for Graham to reprimand him on it by essentially telling him that he'll never get anywhere if he doesn't fight. Celestial Being is as far away from being pacifists as you can get in a Gundam - if they want something solved, they put their money where their mouths are and exterminate the problems through armed intervention.
Celestial Being was all about ending wars by turning everyone into pacifists, so they might not practice it, but it was their goal nonetheless.

As for the results though, I was thinking more of the ending to the movie where all of mankind's basically united under the Earth Federation and seemed to have a long period of peace with the ELS and everybody seems all happy and turning into Innovators and all about peace and understanding and stuff.

But then I remember that we don't really know much about what happened between the time the giant flower first appeared and that 50 years later segment. Maybe it wasn't all colorful and fluffy as it appeared.
__________________
Copyright 2014 Brightman
brightman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 15:28   Link #2214
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
It wasn't. We know for a fact that after the ELS incident, the Innovator War broke out between Innovators and people who didn't like the idea of Innovator and evolution being forced upon them. We also know that Setsuna also participated in that war using the 00 Qan[T].
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 15:36   Link #2215
brightman
Ancient Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
It wasn't. We know for a fact that after the ELS incident, the Innovator War broke out between Innovators and people who didn't like the idea of Innovator and evolution being forced upon them. We also know that Setsuna also participated in that war using the 00 Qan[T].
Yeah, but what about when everyone turns into Innovators?
__________________
Copyright 2014 Brightman
brightman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 15:39   Link #2216
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Beats me. Only 25% of humanity Innovated by the time the Sumeragi was about to launch.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 15:43   Link #2217
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
From official subs/dub, 40%.

Also, not all Innovators became Innovators through "natural way". It's through ELS, which is one of the reason the Innovator Wars broke out, because some ignorant people thought that those infected by the ELS became aliens and were threatened by their existence.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 17:26   Link #2218
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman View Post
That's his argument against using revenge as a motivation. I don't think he supplement that with anything about understanding. Uzumi was always about using force when force is required to defend oneself, so he's not a pacifist at all.
Understanding doesn't mean you have to let yourself be killed, though. He's just saying for Cagalli not to be in such a rush to fight another person's war.
Quote:
First, understanding is not tolerance. Totally different concepts.
They may not be the same, but they're related as far as coexisting peacefully with other people is concerned.
Quote:
Just because a guy like Dearka switches sides because he sees the good guys' point of view that he's working for genocidal bad guys, and he likes a girl and wants to protect her, doesn't mean any form of understanding is reached.
Actually, it does, because he has now come to understand that not everything in ZAFT is all good and not everything outside of ZAFT is all bad.
Quote:
As for Shinn/Kira/Stella, same thing there. Shinn sees that Stella is being treated terribly by the bad guys, develops a brother complex and wants to protect her. Kira doesn't know who the heck she is and kills her. Stella's mental capacity isn't even enough to reach understanding with anyone either way.
That's the point. Imagine if Stella was capable of understanding that Kira wasn't an immediate threat at that last moment. Shinn could've eventually got to her instead of her going berserk.

Or imagine if Shinn would've been more understanding that Kira would have no way of knowing that Stella was a victim. He could've worked with him to safely apprehend Stella instead of just blaming Kira for not knowing.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 19:54   Link #2219
Nvis
Grumpy Senior
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
How they even have the time to build the FX from scratch?

Unless they use a combination of parts from AGE-1,AGE-2,AGE-3, and AGE system?
Nvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-06-17, 19:58   Link #2220
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
You, um, forgot just how quickly the AGE Builder can spit out parts, huh? It didn't take it terribly long to create the G-Hopper and the G-Viper, and those are about 80% of a mobile suit right there.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.