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Old 2012-09-23, 13:41   Link #2201
Blonto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I take it that you find Aoki to be too clear-cut as a Taichi wingman?
Wingman is his archetype and I'm actually pleased with how it was handled (granted, you can only go up with that one). Yeah the girls are supposed to have more important and "deep" issues, but eh, I can enjoy issues that don't define one's entire being as well. Unfortunately he's bound to be second to Taichi, since there can only be one true alpha male in this type of show. That's ok if the show is there to show off the girls rather than creativity, but if I'm looking for a good story I don't want it to be dragged down by these conventions.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That being said, there's the old saying of "bros before hoes", and it's not hard to think that close female friends might have an equivalent to it. I think that Iori views Inaba as her dearest friend, so she just can't bring herself to firmly stand in the way of Inaba's romantic desires. Maybe if Iori and Taichi were already actively dating when Inaba's Taichi-crush came out it would be different, but as is I can kind of roll with what the narrative is doing here.
Well, over here we have a saying "First guy gets the girl". For Inaba, I do think it's refreshing to see an anime girl take some initiative (her increasingly violent tendencies are a big turnoff though), but I don't understand why Iori doesn't at least add a comment here and there to reprimand her before realizing she's just doing that because she feels she's supposed to. Taichi is just indecisive and Inaba seems bent on using that. It doesn't show a lot of respect for her friend (or Taichi's choice for that matter), but I can't blame her for trying and going on the offensive. If Inaba noticed Iori's doubts, why couldn't she just sit down with her for a talk and ask her if she's really that in love with Taichi when she's so willing to give him away. But no, she instead takes it as a green light to flirt with him right before Iori's eyes. That's just not something you do to a friend and while it's not Inaba's fault she has a crush on Taichi, I really would've liked to see a slightly realistic reaction coming from Iori. But I guess we need two girls fighting for the guy's attention to make him feel desirable.

The idea that Iori doesn't actually care about having a relationship with Taichi is the only one that makes sense to me. Their relationship does lack chemistry (though it's possible this is due to quick pacing as well) and Iori tries too hard to please people, so I'm actually ok with that explanation. My problem, as usual, isn't so much what the author is trying to do here, but how he does it. I'm absolutely allergic to "I won't lose" deals, especially when they're made between girls who aren't of equal status. Really, all Iori needs to do at this point is ask "Taichi, you wanna get together or not?" and the whole triangle isn't up in the air anymore. There isn't much point in dancing around the issue when they've both exchanged "I love you"s, except to give Inaba a fighting chance.

What I meant by "developed for the role of a girlfriend" is how the show handles Inaba. Barring the first few episodes, Inaba's sexual moments (as far as I remember) included two references to masturbation and crawling all over Taichi. Iori...uhh.
Same with deredere moments. It seems pretty clear she's been getting more attention from the writer. Iori on the other hand is developing more as a solitary character.

Last edited by Blonto; 2012-09-23 at 14:19. Reason: Reworded first paragraph
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Old 2012-09-23, 14:22   Link #2202
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I see all this discussion about whether Iori has the level of romantic feelings as Inaba. Maybe I'm missing something here... What ever happened to her mentioning to Taichi during the beginning of the second arc where emotions were getting amplified? Remember Iori said to Taichi that they should be careful because their thoughts and actions were pretty much unstable because of the current gimmick?

What I"m trying to get at is... Did Iori say that because she was just being cautious of the amplified emotions or did she really do that as a way to back off from getting closer to Taichi because she's not sure if she really loves him or not?
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Old 2012-09-23, 15:08   Link #2203
Arturia Polaris
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Every one join me in taking a bow. Aoki is a real man.

I knew that inaban would be the one that wised up to taichi's involvement. I knew that her constant lookout for loops in everything would come into play. Besides the end shows taichi regressing as well...

Good episode, even though I did end up seeing it through my nexus 7 and it was a bit choppy, but the content is there. I don't think that aoki is through the woods yet. He always said: Nana's big sister... we saw Nana.

Just some thoufhta .

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Old 2012-09-23, 15:16   Link #2204
thankonomics
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The problem with Iori goes back to the original premise of her problem: Who is the real Iori? As long as that particular problem is unresolved, whatever feelings Iori have for Taichi might, in the extreme case, not be real in the first place, but is based on the expectations she feels upon herself due to Taichi liking Iori in the first place.
Agreed. Once Iori does discover her "true self" it could turn out that she might not even like Taichi at all in that sort of light. It probably didn't help that in the beginning Inaba was sort of just force-feeding the idea of how Iori and Taichi would be good together. High schoolers can be so easily influenced by the opinions of their peers whether they're conscious of it or not.

It sort of reminds me of a situation when I was back in high school. A few friends thought one of our friends would be very compatible with this guy who was a year above us. They kept feeding her that idea to the point where when the guy did ask her out, she said yes. A week later she broke it off, her reason being that she found that she never really liked the guy in that sense.
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Old 2012-09-23, 23:03   Link #2205
Blonto
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
You've probably seen too many bad ones, like I have .

On a related note I would say Kokoro Connect has an above-average one. It's one of the better ones I've seen but it does suffer from clumsy presentation and directions at times like the one from this episode and most particularly from that finale ep of the desire unleash arc.
I admit I'm not good with the romance genre. It's too slow for my taste and I prefer the main conflict to be non-romantic. I don't take it upon myself to pick a pairing since I just roll with whatever the creators chose. So I'm usually not too emotionally invested in the relationship until the creators make up their minds. And if I take a strong liking to one character, then a love triangle is just a drag since it divides the screentime between two girls, one of which I don't care about. I can enjoy a love triangle from a story POV but I can't get all shippery over it.

I think the main problem is that in a lot of love triangles you are left with a character whose entire development was meaningless if she doesn't end up with the MC. Which is actually something Kokoro Connect avoids nicely. The relationship problems are well tied in with the problems the girls are facing, so getting in or out of the triangle can benefit their characters.
Also, when I was asking my sister and her friend what they'd do in Iori's situation, I found that the situation is a bit harder to describe than I thought it would be, which is a plus in my book.

Last edited by Blonto; 2012-09-23 at 23:23.
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Old 2012-09-24, 07:23   Link #2206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
I think the main problem is that in a lot of love triangles you are left with a character whose entire development was meaningless if she doesn't end up with the MC. Which is actually something Kokoro Connect avoids nicely. The relationship problems are well tied in with the problems the girls are facing, so getting in or out of the triangle can benefit their characters.
Also, when I was asking my sister and her friend what they'd do in Iori's situation, I found that the situation is a bit harder to describe than I thought it would be, which is a plus in my book.
And the series I mentioned as good examples of love triangles all do this . It actually shows how devastating it can be for the loser instead of the tired anime cliche of "everything is fine".
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Old 2012-09-24, 07:36   Link #2207
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Originally Posted by Snuffle View Post
I see all this discussion about whether Iori has the level of romantic feelings as Inaba. Maybe I'm missing something here... What ever happened to her mentioning to Taichi during the beginning of the second arc where emotions were getting amplified? Remember Iori said to Taichi that they should be careful because their thoughts and actions were pretty much unstable because of the current gimmick?

What I"m trying to get at is... Did Iori say that because she was just being cautious of the amplified emotions or did she really do that as a way to back off from getting closer to Taichi because she's not sure if she really loves him or not?
I think it's both. We have the situation where Iori knows what Inaba did with Taichi, and thus wanted to be careful. However, at the same time we have the problem of the "real" Iori. Aside from satisfying basic desires (food and happiness at doing well on a test), there has been no particular characteristic firing of the desires for Iori. This leads back to the question of whether Iori has any particular desires other than the basics: Was it because she had no particular desires, since she had no identity, or was it because she was just overlooked in the grand scheme of things? When we consider this, Iori is potentially in the worst position out of the five members (supposing Taichi's selflessness is not a serious problem), making her be reserved in what she does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
And the series I mentioned as good examples of love triangles all do this . It actually shows how devastating it can be for the loser instead of the tired anime cliche of "everything is fine".
Perhaps, but I also happen to find the "cliché" to be quite realistic too. The fact is most of the time the characters shouldn't be investing all those emotions at such a early age, and when you think about it, do some of the supposed "great" dramas actually make sense within the context of middle/high school romances? I almost always found the supposed "good" examples to be pretty bad when set in real life.
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Old 2012-09-24, 08:30   Link #2208
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Maybe I'm read too much into this, but why haven't anyone here brought up the significance of the "I cut my hair late last year" comment from Nana?

Isn't that a sign that she also moved on as well prior to this meet up?
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Old 2012-09-24, 08:37   Link #2209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
Maybe I'm read too much into this, but why haven't anyone here brought up the significance of the "I cut my hair late last year" comment from Nana?

Isn't that a sign that she also moved on as well prior to this meet up?
Yes it is, what else is there to say ?

Both Aoki and Nana had moved on from their break up, though we don't really know the circumstances of that break up years ago but clearly it was mutual to an extend.
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Old 2012-09-24, 08:41   Link #2210
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It's just that there are people that were "oh but we don't know how Nana felt"

guess I'm thinking too much :P
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Old 2012-09-24, 08:44   Link #2211
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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
It's just that there are people that were "oh but we don't know how Nana felt"

guess I'm thinking too much :P
Well personally it didn't seem like that big of a secret to me from her chosen words... And I'm sure most people also know it, but choose to focus on the negative 'what ifs' for argument sake.
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Old 2012-09-24, 08:50   Link #2212
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Well personally it didn't seem like that big of a secret to me from her chosen words... I'm sure most people also know it, but choose to focus on the negative 'what ifs'.
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Old 2012-09-24, 09:22   Link #2213
frivolity
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I don't actually see the logical link between cutting hair and move on. Did Aoki mention anything about wanting her to keep her hair the way it was?
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Old 2012-09-24, 09:23   Link #2214
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
I don't actually see the logical link between cutting hair and move on.
Commonly used anime cliche particularly in shonen series.
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Old 2012-09-24, 09:26   Link #2215
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Yes it is, what else is there to say ?

Both Aoki and Nana had moved on from their break up, though we don't really know the circumstances of that break up years ago but clearly it was mutual to an extend.
Maybe it was just me, but I didn't think Aoki and Nana had actually been a couple. I guess I just saw it as Aoki proclaiming his love like how he does to Yui, without an actual positive reply.

To see people saying they were actually a couple, well that throws things in the mix a bit. For instance, why would they even break up in the first place? The first sign of trouble (we're moving apart) and they call it quits?

Nana's response also makes things weird, given it meant she liked Aoki too. Giving no real reason for a break-up.

So I just assumed they had a similar relationship to what Yui and Aoki currently have. Not a couple, so no real break-up, but Nana did have some feelings for Aoki. The hair-cut comment simply giving a 'I've moved on too' vibe rather than explicitly referring to love.
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Old 2012-09-24, 09:41   Link #2216
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I guess it is not really important if they were a couple or not, but speaking for myself I got the feeling they were; given how Nana reacted to his statement. If they weren't a couple I would have expected a more awkward reaction from her. She instead wasn't surprised at all IIRC.
For the haircut thing, didn't she say she cut them few days before? I somehow got the feeling that she had still some feelings for him, but that is even because to me cutting hairs is more a step forward getting over than a sign of having got over. In fact I was sorry for her and for a moment I hoped Aoki chose her
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Old 2012-09-24, 09:54   Link #2217
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
I don't actually see the logical link between cutting hair and move on. Did Aoki mention anything about wanting her to keep her hair the way it was?
It's a culture thing.

Hair means a lot to the Japanese (possibly Korean and Chinese too) since ancient times.
Women cutting their long hair usually means severing their past.
This gesture is still used today in many forms of media, be it literature or anime or film and stuff.

Aoki doesn't need to say anything. It's a given in their culture, when a girl who used to have long hair suddenly cut it usually means she has, either willingly or reluctantly, let go and move on.
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Old 2012-09-24, 11:29   Link #2218
frivolity
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I see. Guess I didn't recognise the reference without the dramatic use-a-kunai-to-cut-hair scene.

Yes, hair meant a lot to the Chinese in ancient times, and it was considered very dishonourable for a man to have his queue cut.
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Old 2012-09-24, 14:49   Link #2219
Blonto
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
I don't actually see the logical link between cutting hair and move on.
Hair is the only thing on your body you can cut off in a huge amount and since it takes some time to grow it's not hard to see why it represents one's life up to that point. Not to mention it drastically changes your appearance. I didn't think that symbolism was only limited to Asia.

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Originally Posted by Sphire View Post
To see people saying they were actually a couple, well that throws things in the mix a bit. For instance, why would they even break up in the first place? The first sign of trouble (we're moving apart) and they call it quits?
Nana's response also makes things weird, given it meant she liked Aoki too. Giving no real reason for a break-up.
I see nothing strange with how Aoki and Nana broke up. People easily lose touch with their friends, let alone girlfriends/boyfriends, at that age. Yeah, there are occasional exceptions, but for the most part people simply drift apart without even deciding to do so. I assume neither Aoki nor Nana were really up for a long-distance relationship and I'm glad Nana just got over him, rather than got stuck in love limbo.
How old were they, anyway? 13?

Last edited by Blonto; 2012-09-24 at 16:46.
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Old 2012-09-24, 15:06   Link #2220
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Sphire View Post
Maybe it was just me, but I didn't think Aoki and Nana had actually been a couple. I guess I just saw it as Aoki proclaiming his love like how he does to Yui, without an actual positive reply.

To see people saying they were actually a couple, well that throws things in the mix a bit. For instance, why would they even break up in the first place? The first sign of trouble (we're moving apart) and they call it quits?

That's not the first time people have broken up over long distance relationship, even if it isn't immediate the countdown has already started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Commonly used anime cliche particularly in shonen series.
People do that in real life as well you know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
I see nothing strange with how Aoki and Nana broke up. People easily lose touch with their friends, let alone girlfriends/boyfriends, at that age. Yeah, there are occasional exceptions, but for the most part people simply drift apart without even deciding to do so. I assume neither Aoki nor Nana were really up for a long-distance relationship and I'm glad Nana just got over him, rather than got stuck in love limbo.
How old were they, anyway? 13?
They started dating in middle school, so about 13-15.
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