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Old 2012-08-12, 16:39   Link #1201
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
does this mean that the last 4 episodes will be blu-ray only?
That's pretty much what it does mean, but I'm sure we'll get crappy stream quality first.

Similar to Bakemonogatari and Ore no Imouto.
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Old 2012-08-12, 16:55   Link #1202
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Originally Posted by ThereminVox View Post
It could also just be a self esteem thing, putting others before herself. Like Taichi, she's not above degrading herself in front of her friends for their sake. The "I was looking at dirty pictures" dodge reminded me of his "I've masturbated to you" confession in that both were done with the goal of bringing some measure of comfort to a friend at the cost of potentially serious damage to their own reputations.
Pretty much explains my thoughts.
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Old 2012-08-12, 17:07   Link #1203
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I'm not familiar with blu-ray anime release patterns.

What's the typical time gap from Original Airing Date->DVD/Blu-Ray release date nowadays?
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Old 2012-08-12, 17:10   Link #1204
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
I'm not familiar with blu-ray anime release patterns.

What's the typical time gap from Original Airing Date->DVD/Blu-Ray release date nowadays?
If I'm not wrong, they usually start releasing BD/dvds after the airing of the shows, with each new volume every one month.

You're looking at potentially 6-8 months.
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Old 2012-08-12, 18:02   Link #1205
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Rather than "Deal with it" comments, avoiding specific issues I've been addressing and making farfteched strawman arguments about unrealism, namely how Heartseed has been used rather than the mere fact that he's a supernatural entity, why don't you explain why you think Heartseed is a good addition to Kokoro Connect other than "because he's part of the plot".

As for bringing in the comparison of Harry Potter which is a British fantasy series where the premise in that is all about wizards, magic ...
Just chill bro. Get that stick out of your butt. I wasn't being, and don't mean to be, rude to you on a personal level. "Deal with it" is completely appropriate where it is and I am not not gonna say it if I think it's appropriate.

Much like Magic is the premise of that British Fantasy series, Heart Seed is (part of) the premise here. Jesus. Is it really that hard to try and be at least a bit lenient to the other side of the argument?

You're watching a fictional show. The author introduced a supernatural plot device. It's part of the premise. That's not a strawman argument but a completely objective statement of just how it is. You can choose to beat the dead horse about how it alone ruins the show for you or you can just accept it for what it is. That's your choice and it's fine however you deal with it. What's not okay is the implication you make that the quality of the rest of the show is influenced in any manner whatsoever by the author choosing not to explain the plot device. It doesn't matter what, who or why Heart Seed is. That's just not what the show is about.

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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
So it's common to get punched by a female for being a tad inconsiderate? All the guy did was try to speak about the incident
It's not being a tad bit inconsiderate that matters. It's being close enough and having an interesting situation to bring it about that matters. I have been slapped, punched in the guts, kicked in the shin and all that by my friends for pulling raunchy pranks on them. Sure Taichi didn't mean to pull a prank on Inaba but the effect was all the same and he totally deserved it. If they weren't close, and if it hadn't been brought about in the manner it was, I would see some problems with it but in that situation, that's hardly abuse. More like proof that they are really comfortable with each other. Bad glares would be appropriate if they weren't and jabs in the shoulder would be if Taichi hadn't jumped the gun straight up and if it wasn't as serious as it was. Why should a girl be limited to one gesture alone? If there is anything good about the female human species, it's that they are more expressive than the males. I wouldn't want them to not be like that.

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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Yep. Teenage male treatment in anime is pretty atrocious at the moment let alone some people thinking it's perfectly acceptable within the medium. It's not -that- infuriating atm, but it hell is annoying.
Agreed that it's pretty atrocious, not to mention how there are very few males and how they mostly never matter bar the one MC and all that. I don't think any reasonable person would find it perfectly acceptable but at some point, rehashing the same criticism over and over gets redundant as hell so people would naturally choose to just let it slide. I don't think this show has gone into atrocious treatment of Teenage males in the same vein you imply. All the same, Aoki is a total stock character and that's a real beef.
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Old 2012-08-12, 18:11   Link #1206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
I'm not familiar with blu-ray anime release patterns.

What's the typical time gap from Original Airing Date->DVD/Blu-Ray release date nowadays?
Varies on the show. You'll see the first volume released either 2-3 months after the show begins and the length of release depends on various factors. Often a 1 cour anime (12-14 episodes) will be put onto 6-7 volumes with 2 episodes a volume. A 2 cour anime (24-27 episodes) will be put onto 8-9 volumes with 3 episodes a volume. Each month will only have one volume released. Then different distributors have different release patterns. King Records, the company distributing this show in Japan, is using a unique pattern for the BD/DVD release.

Volume 1: 2 episodes/Released on 2012/09/26
Volume 2: 3 episodes/Released on 2012/10/24
Volume 3: 2 episodes/Released on 2012/11/21
Volume 4: 3 episodes/Released on 2012/12/26
Volume 5: 3 episodes/Released on 2013/01/23 (TV broadcast likely ends here)
Volume 6: 2 episodes/Released on 2013/02/27
Volume 7: 2 episodes/Released on 2013/03/27
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Old 2012-08-12, 19:45   Link #1207
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I think a rejection of Heartseed is basically a rejection of Kokoro Connect, because Heartseed is basically the entire premise for the series. It's not a school romance or slice-of-life - it's a show about a mysterious entity and the experimentation he performs on a bunch of kids. Complaining that's he's an author's avatar or deux ex machina seems quite odd to me - what Heartseed does isn't plot convenience, it's just plot. If you don't like the plot, that's fine - but why would you expect something different? It's like saying "I like Moby Dick except for the whole whale thing."
I should make it clear that I don't have a problem with Heartseed's concept. Kyuubey from Madoka Magica, Deus Ex Machina from Future Diary, and Izaya from Durarara are basically the same concept, but I love them. My problem is that Heartseed is a "bad" mysterious entity/experimenter. There are ways to screw that character type up and he is basically the definition of that.

One of the problems I have with him is that he literally just says "your life is boring. Let's cram in some drama" and does it in a smug meta way rather than a natural way. The second is his voice. Keiji Fujiwara is not allowed to let his charisma shine like he does with Holland or Ladd Russo because he has to speak like a robot. I would have loved Heartseed if he was playing with the kids' lives with the thought of dancing in their blood.
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Old 2012-08-12, 20:15   Link #1208
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So anyway, to me, the "pretty bad" "haphazard" writing is part of the meta-narrative of the work. If the writing were "good" (by common definitions), I don't know that it would communicate the same point (to me anyway) about how we're all just puppets in someone else's play. The story itself is an image of the message. That doesn't mean we have to like it; in fact, maybe we shouldn't like it. But I think it's somehow compelling at the same time.
Well then. It looks like I have two options at this point:

a) Treat the show as a poorly-written piece that compensates through the strength of its characterization.

b) Treat the show as a meta-narrative to show off the author's absolute dominance over any story using Heartseed as his (or her) medium.

Whatever the case, going with the latter is probably the better option if I want to enjoy the show to the fullest, especially since there's probably nothing more to salvage off Heartseed's character at this point.
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Old 2012-08-12, 20:21   Link #1209
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Originally Posted by Flawfinder View Post
My problem is that Heartseed is a "bad" mysterious entity/experimenter. There are ways to screw that character type up and he is basically the definition of that.

One of the problems I have with him is that he literally just says "your life is boring. Let's cram in some drama" and does it in a smug meta way rather than a natural way. The second is his voice. Keiji Fujiwara is not allowed to let his charisma shine like he does with Holland or Ladd Russo because he has to speak like a robot.
Isn't this the whole point of his character, though? He's supposed be completely disinterested, unattached, and without charisma (but not without some odd sense of respect for life and fairness, like a somewhat disinterested scientist performing lab experiments on sentient patients). If he weren't like that, wouldn't it completely change the message the show is saying about the puppet-master/fate/destiny/"god"? That's why I'm not sure if they're "screwing that character type up" -- his personality is what defines the role he plays, not his motivation. I don't think we're supposed to either love him or love to hate him; he just "is".
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Old 2012-08-12, 20:53   Link #1210
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Isn't this the whole point of his character, though? He's supposed be completely disinterested, unattached, and without charisma (but not without some odd sense of respect for life and fairness, like a somewhat disinterested scientist performing lab experiments on sentient patients). If he weren't like that, wouldn't it completely change the message the show is saying about the puppet-master/fate/destiny/"god"? That's why I'm not sure if they're "screwing that character type up" -- his personality is what defines the role he plays, not his motivation. I don't think we're supposed to either love him or love to hate him; he just "is".
Yeah, but there's something wrong when that entity nearly kills a girl and the show itself expects us to treat it like it's necessary. And does it so smugly on top of that. I don't get much moral ambiguity from his actions.
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Old 2012-08-12, 21:11   Link #1211
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Wait, does this mean we won't get episodes 14-17 until March? Insert "Big No!!!!" here.
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Old 2012-08-12, 21:13   Link #1212
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Originally Posted by Flawfinder View Post
Yeah, but there's something wrong when that entity nearly kills a girl and the show itself expects us to treat it like it's necessary. And does it so smugly on top of that. I don't get much moral ambiguity from his actions.
Yes, there is something wrong, clearly. But I don't think the show expects us to treat it like it's "necessary", but rather that it's unavoidable. What are they supposed to do about it? To them, he's an unstoppable force who will do whatever he wants or needs to do (we don't know) and they have to try to deal with it without going crazy. Likewise, we in the audience have to just deal with the fact that Heartseed is the plot device he very well claims to be. This is a story about the author, using Heartseed as a proxy, messing with the lives of characters we're supposed to care about, and messing with us as viewers in the process.

This is basically "god [the author] is a total a**hole", The TV Series. The question we have to ask is "why would we want to watch a series with that premise", and the answer seems to be because we want to know what will happen to the characters we care about. If Heartseed didn't totally annoy and frustrate you with all the smug plot contrivances, I'd wonder if you were watching the same show. (Perhaps you have to be something of a masochist to enjoy this show? )

(As for why we should watch it, perhaps we can go with Heartseed's own answer: "I'm not going to ask for your forgiveness, but I hope you won't hold a grudge, since you also benefited from the experience." Watching the characters go through these experiences, and what we learn about human nature in the process, is our benefit. Incidentally, that's perhaps Heartseed's own benefit as well.)

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Originally Posted by Uberchu View Post
Wait, does this mean we won't get episodes 14-17 until March? Insert "Big No!!!!" here.
There will probably be online streams of the episode prior to the Blu-Ray/DVD release in Japan, based on what has happened in similar cases recently.
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Old 2012-08-12, 21:31   Link #1213
Irenicus
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So, like, I watched this on a whim, was thoroughly impressed by the first episode, and then...not so much anymore.

What I was impressed with:
  • A nice bunch of characters.
  • Fun dynamics to go with the cast. Comedy, slice of life, drama, all the jazz, all delivered, usually, with a naturalistic tone.
  • The "moeblob" isn't dense and dumb, at all!
  • Aoki, the other male character, showed surprising depth.
  • It's mostly a character-driven show, even to the point where it's literally driven by the character's problems at many points.
  • It seemed, at first, to be a true ensemble play, with what appeared to be a certain sensitiveness to all the characters' tangling emotions [i.e. a Honey & Clover Lite]

But the problems have been piling up:
  • The naturalistic tone slipped up from time to time. Someone brought up Whedon a few pages back; I think he's a good example of what went wrong. Once or twice, it gets the audience's attention (Iori's first strange outburst in Aoki's body got mine), and teenagers occasionally do have those speculative conversations. Again and again, and the characters start to lose their native charm.
  • The ensemble cast first impression was cruelly dashed by an obnoxious and continuous dose of Taichi Saves The Girl. This comes at a direct cost of removing Aoki's character from view.
  • Said Taichi Save the Girl routine takes place continuously from episode 3 on, and actually happens more than once an episode! I thought this was going to be a subtle show where intense emotions are expressed with the lightest delicacy, I was wrong. I hope the new Desires arc will not get into this sort of routine again.
  • Fuck Heartseed the Mean Plot Guy. What, rejecting him is rejecting the show? Fine, fuck this show as well. Happy?
  • The episode 5 drama was good...if it wasn't pulled right out of said Plot Guy's box of lols. Sigh. And I thought KeyAIDS was bad.

And there are things which are kind of problematic but sort of working out after all:
  • Taichi's Ph.D in Psychology (eh not really) and his premium membership of the National Society of 'Kind' Harem Leads did not prevent him from having a bit of a dark side in him. Thank you, latest episode.
  • Some of the characters' issues turned out to be less than overwhelming and thus the Whedonesque self-psychoanalysis. Yui is obviously excepted -- she had every reason to be traumatized like that; Iori did have a trauma, though her problem seemed more like a heavier version of everybody's problem (I think she probably likes "The Logical Song"); Inaban came off as pretentious rather than convincing with her trust issues and Taichi wasn't really all that much of a Jesus. Aoki...Aoki who?
  • Inaban's aggressive verbal attacks, I felt strongly, were very unjustified at times -- and I'm not talking about emasculation or whatever, but rather her outbursts of serious lecturing against Taichi in the earlier episodes being just plain missing the mark. Fortunately, one could interpret her words through the lens of later revelations of her own trust issues, that is, she got it wrong, and Taichi agreeing with her rather than fighting back was part of his "selfless," trusting persona.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So anyway, to me, the "pretty bad" "haphazard" writing is part of the meta-narrative of the work. If the writing were "good" (by common definitions), I don't know that it would communicate the same point (to me anyway) about how we're all just puppets in someone else's play. The story itself is an image of the message. That doesn't mean we have to like it; in fact, maybe we shouldn't like it. But I think it's somehow compelling at the same time.
Yes, well, "metafiction" is basically an excuse for postmodern writers to fail at narrative.

Heartseed is a rage character, I'm pretty sure we agree on this [I saw your post above]. But unlike you I think he's the worst possible messenger for the We Are All In Someone Else's Play message, because he's not a very good playwright.

___________

Kyubey is also an overrated tool. Most writers aren't amoral; and, not truly grasping amorality, they always, always make these entities evil, and then they justify the evil by limiting the damages or excusing the evil with "incomprehensibility" or some such excuse. And we're supposed to buy that these evil things are just on a different morality scale, that the entity doesn't understand our morality, they are just acting on curiosity, to experiment, to gather information or something. Guess what, authors? Curiosity, desire for more information, is fundamentally human, or more correctly, sentient.

These characters create lots and lots of rage and drama and then the authors get to blame everything on the Amoral Entity Scapegoat. If a writer is actually brave, they would pull a Camus and tell it like it is: no, it's not that Nature doesn't care about you or doesn't understand you or is an evil fluffy mascot subversion, rather, Nature does not exist. There is no God. You don't even get the privilege to kill Him.

Or if they just want to tell good dramatic stories where the Fates have ordained that there shalt be drama, they'd do it like the ancient Greeks and personified, actually person-ified, their trickster gods.

I don't like being manipulated into some manufactured existential despair -- all you really need for that is look straight inside.

Though you [or was it someone else?] were right -- as an audience member, I take misfortunes easier if the victims seem strong enough to fight back somehow. Picard? Bring it. Batman? Send him to hell. Leonidas? YEAH. Achilles? The bastard had it coming. Troubled moe high schoolers in a club? Fuck you [...not *you*, obviously].

As for the arguments a page or so back that if the supernatural happenings are not justified in-story, people will complain -- fair enough. But I won't be one of those, if they do it right. Magical realism isn't for everyone, but I've always been able to subsume myself and shed my verisimilitude in the good ones, the ones which were able to strike the right tone. And truly, are we so grounded in our own metafictional arrogance that we need Rageguy to justify switching bodies, dramatic accidents, and runaway Desires among a bunch of high schoolers in animation?

Last edited by Irenicus; 2012-08-12 at 21:46.
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Old 2012-08-12, 21:45   Link #1214
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
I don't like being manipulated into some manufactured existential despair
Bingo. This is exactly what I think it comes down to. By the way, neither do the characters like being manipulated into some manufactured existential despair. But, unlike the characters in the story, we have the choice: do we watch, or not? So like you said earlier, "fuck this show as well. Happy?" Perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
And truly, are we so grounded in our own metafictional arrogance that we need Rageguy to justify switching bodies, dramatic accidents, and runaway Desires among a bunch of high schoolers in animation?
Of course not. Anime does all these things without "Rageguy" all the time and pretends it's being subtle. Here it's just "screw subtlety; here's exactly what's up guys". I find that almost refreshing, in a sick, twisted sort of way.

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Yes, well, "metafiction" is basically an excuse for postmodern writers to fail at narrative.
Perhaps. But if I enjoy the characters and the conflicting emotions it's putting me through while it raises existential questions, is it so wrong to enjoy it?

To be clear, I can't even tell you if I "like" this show. But I do find it oddly compelling and curious. That's good enough for me for now.
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Old 2012-08-12, 21:59   Link #1215
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Bingo. This is exactly what I think it comes down to. By the way, neither do the characters like being manipulated into some manufactured existential despair. But, unlike the characters in the story, we have the choice: do we watch, or not? So like you said earlier, "fuck this show as well. Happy?" Perfectly.
But I like the girls. And the boys too, if Taichi doesn't get too far into nice guy harem lead territory (hi Aoki, how was Toradora? Kitamura called).

Quote:
Of course not. Anime does all these things without "Rageguy" all the time and pretends it's being subtle. Here it's just "screw subtlety; here's exactly what's up guys". I find that almost refreshing, in a sick, twisted sort of way.
I don't think it's a difference of subtlety so much as it is an entirely different focus. By creating an in-story character that is behind all the "fun stuff," the dynamics shifted dramatically. Metafictionally, your interpretation is perfectly justifiable, interesting too -- I have no intention of contesting that. But within the show itself, Heartseed is now a character, supposedly amoral, unreachable and all, and the direct cause of the students' misfortune. He now bears direct responsibility. This is not the case in, say, Ano Hana. If the central tragedy was caused by the actions of an entity like Kyubey for the lulz, I would have found the drama not nearly half so convincing.

Take episode 5, for example. Even if it was KeyAIDS or a Korean drama car accident, despite the clichés involved, I would have been more involved in the looming tragedy, but with the presence of Heartseed, I only found the whole thing frustrating, not in a "good" way that will teach me messages about life, but largely because I knew there was no Batman in this show who'd show up and beat the crap out of "Mr. God."

The primary difference between him and ilk, versus the capricious gods of the Greek myths, their curses and their hate, is that he is being excused as an entity which does not grasp humanity and vice versa, whereas the Ancient Greeks never excused their gods so [a professor once told me that they did not worship them out of love, but fear; not to seek divine revelation, but as a trade].

So if there's a message to tell, and Slumpy Robot Voice is the Cassandra of this message, then...what's the message? I think myself pretty smart, but I didn't feel like I learned something special, not even by being jolted unwillingly into it.

Last edited by Irenicus; 2012-08-13 at 09:54. Reason: Unintentional spoiler removed =(
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Old 2012-08-12, 22:08   Link #1216
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
There will probably be online streams of the episode prior to the Blu-Ray/DVD release in Japan, based on what has happened in similar cases recently.
Thanks for the info, but when do those streams come out?
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Old 2012-08-12, 22:41   Link #1217
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Thanks for the info, but when do those streams come out?
Good question; we have no idea yet. Based on past history, you can probably expect to wait a little while after the broadcast, but who knows...


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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Take episode 5, for example. Even if it was KeyAIDS or a Korean drama car accident, despite the clichés involved, I would have been more involved in the looming tragedy, but with the presence of Heartseed, I only found the whole thing frustrating, not in a "good" way that will teach me messages about life, but largely because I knew there was no Batman in this show who'd show up and beat the crap out of "Mr. God."
This is exactly why I liked the way they portrayed the reaction of the cast while and after Heartseed gave his explanation. Just a complete utter dumbfounded stupor. The unspoken message that was begging to be screamed between the lines was "WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT OF THAT?" But that was the point! The point was for us to see what would happen. It was "interesting".

As you say, "Rageguy". He's a troll. Maybe my experience as a Forum mod over the years have granted me +5 Resistance to Trolls and I've grown to find it amusing?

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
So if there's a message to tell, and Slumpy Robot Voice is the Cassandra of this message, then...what's the message? I think myself pretty smart, but I didn't feel like I learned something special, not even by being jolted unwillingly into it.
Hmm... maybe you have to impart your own meaning? I mean, if you think of this as a science experiment, then what was the hypothesis? (Does Heartseed even have a hypothesis?) On its own, it doesn't seem to have any meaning; the journey was the goal. The only prize is... the journey is over, and the residuals we've learned about the characters and how they faced the trial. I agree that every rule of logic should say that the takeaway is nothing and our time has been wasted, except for...

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
But I like the girls. And the boys too, if Taichi doesn't get too far into nice guy harem lead territory
...our emotional attachment to the characters. Damn you, emotions -- the one thing we have that Heartseed doesn't appear to have at all.
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Old 2012-08-12, 23:08   Link #1218
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

Hmm... maybe you have to impart your own meaning? I mean, if you think of this as a science experiment, then what was the hypothesis? (Does Heartseed even have a hypothesis?) On its own, it doesn't seem to have any meaning; the journey was the goal. The only prize is... the journey is over, and the residuals we've learned about the characters and how they faced the trial. I agree that every rule of logic should say that the takeaway is nothing and our time has been wasted, except for...
I don't know about hypothesis, but when the first episode made mention of how these 5 characters arbitrarily came together and founded a random club, they became interesting to me. Perhaps HeartSeed is the same. It sounds like he can see their inner struggles, and he personally found it fascinating that these broken people came together own their own. So now he's playing with them.

At least, I assumed that much.
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Old 2012-08-12, 23:52   Link #1219
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Holy jeebus. Someone is more annoyed at the show than me. Also relentless bringing out his box of sarcams and dry humour. It's a meta-meta-meta debate.

Carry on gentlemen whilst I get more popcorn .

(Really despite the lol soapboxing and swearing from each side, good arguments).
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:01   Link #1220
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