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Old 2012-08-23, 00:07   Link #1541
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I think you and I are talking about two different things. All I'm saying is that people have a habit of dissociating their emotions (at least the undesirable ones) from their perception of "self". I mean, I don't like it when people come and claim, "It wasn't me, it was my desire/emotion." In doing this, they are drawing a clear dichotomy between the rational self and the emotional self, which I believe is obstructive to achieving self acceptance. Whether it's a defense mechanism or something else, I don't know.
Like I said, In Taichi’s case, his form of “responsibility” is forcedly taken from him by HS by completely eliminating his ego. Imo, no normal human has ever experienced losing the entire ego, except maybe for crazy people (and crazy people can’t be blame for what they did). Thus, I don’t think Taichi is at fault here for that single act. Even if he did say "It wasn't me, it was my desire/emotion." It’s still true. He’s not at fault coz, naturally, his “real” self might never said that kinda words in that kinda situation to Inaba. Basically, you can’t blame a person when he/she, at some point, think bad about others. You can only blame him/her when he/she deliberately put it into action and offend others (which Taichi didn’t).

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Well obviously, emotions are not conclusive in themselves. And like you said, they are very situational, but why should that stop anyone from drawing certain theories from them? While they obviously can't tell the entire story, it can still be quite informative in evaluating how a person reacts on a situational basis. Just think of reason/logic as an extraneous variable that had to be removed for the sake of this little social experiment.
Drawing theories from what we’re shown is very much fine, of course. It’s just I think we shouldn’t draw conclusions based on their id-mode alone (I’m not saying you did). Id-mode gives us a hint of a character’s psyche, true, but Identity/personality also depends on how you filter your emotion with reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Contrary to what you might think, my assessment of Taichi's character is not solely from that single emotional scene. Please don't misrepresent me here. All I'm doing is a bit of speculation based on what we got. You can't deny that we can get all sorts of good hints regarding his inner psyche from that particular scene.
I’m not trying to misrepresent you. My original reply to you is regarding what you said that Taichi’s ego-less emotional outburst is unwarranted for him to do so. While in reality, it’s not even his doing (it’s HS’ trolling). If not because of the gimmick, Taichi might never spoke like that or at least he would greatly soften it for Inaba’s sake. That’s the “real” Taichi I think. (I already answered about the psyche hints)

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Also, since this show seems to be using a vaguely Freudian framework anyway, emotions form the foundation of our expressed behavior. They are the end all and be all of everything we do. The ego is simply there to express these emotions within the bounds of society's norms.
Emotions form the foundation of our expressed behavior as an “intelligent animals”. But the ego & moral greatly help us to become “social creatures named humans”. The combination of both is what makes each of us a “person”, Just my opinion.
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:16   Link #1542
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Like I said, In Taichi’s case, his form of “responsibility” is forcedly taken from him by HS by completely eliminating his ego. Imo, no normal human has ever experienced losing the entire ego, except maybe for crazy people (and crazy people can’t be blame for what they did). Thus, I don’t think Taichi is at fault here for that single act. Even if he did say "It wasn't me, it was my desire/emotion." It’s still true. He’s not at fault coz, naturally, his “real” self might never said that kinda words in that kinda situation to Inaba. Basically, you can’t blame a person when he, at some point, think bad about others. You can only blame him/her when he/she deliberately put it into action and offend others (which Taichi didn’t).
I think there's a difference between "blaming people for what they said", and "being upset by what you know someone believes (even if they don't say it)". I think indeed he can't necessarily be blamed for having said what he said, because he probably wouldn't have said it otherwise. But, if pressed, would he really deny that there's a part of him that really feels that way? I think that's the part that Qilin is trying to get at. If he denies it ("I didn't mean it at all!"), then that's almost certainly a lie, because they understand the "spell" they're under. The heart's true feelings do not lie... but they don't necessarily tell the entire story either.

I mean, rationally, he may be able to plead the insanity defence ("I wasn't in a right state of mind at the time") and shouldn't be completely held responsible for the consequences... but the wound he caused is more real because she knows that, somewhere deep down, he was serious -- even if he would never have voiced it otherwise. I assume this is especially hurtful to her because of her feelings for him; it's like the coldest of cold-hearted rejections. (Not just "I don't like you" or "I like someone else more", but "I didn't realize you were such a horrible person". Ouch.)
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:24   Link #1543
Jmac
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All I got to say is the waiting and suspense is killing me! Man, why can't the weekend get here any sooner?
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:37   Link #1544
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Once again, it's notable that your interpretation undervalues emotion as an element of the self, placing importance mainly on the cognitive aspect. Perhaps people don't like to acknowledge the role of emotion in identity formation, that it is better left suppressed and denied.
The circumstances of my birth had a large part in my identity formation, but I don't see why I should take responsibility for them. Responsibility is for the things you control.

Quote:
I'm not calling it a crime or a fault to express hidden emotions, but I don't like it when people set aside "emotional outbursts" as distinct from the idea of the self. I look at such measures as just another form of rationalization. An emotional outburst is simply another expression of the self just like some impartial decision you have to make one time or another.
In the case of normal outbursts, I'd agree with you. In this case, it's as much an expression of Heartseed's self as it is theirs.
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:40   Link #1545
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think there's a difference between "blaming people for what they said", and "being upset by what you know someone believes (even if they don't say it)". I think indeed he can't necessarily be blamed for having said what he said, because he probably wouldn't have said it otherwise. But, if pressed, would he really deny that there's a part of him that really feels that way? I think that's the part that Qilin is trying to get at. If he denies it ("I didn't mean it at all!"), then that's almost certainly a lie, because they understand the "spell" they're under. The heart's true feelings do not lie... but they don't necessarily tell the entire story either.

*snip*
Yup. But don’t we have a part of us that hate other people? Even between families & couples. A dad has a part of him that hates his son (& vice versa), a husband has a part of him that hates his wife (& vice versa) etc. I think it’s normal. Unfortunately (or fortunately, chara development-wise) both Inaba & Taichi is just having bad-luck (or trolled) with Inaba knowing that particular part of Taichi that hates her. There’s no reason to hate any of the characters for that single incident, but that’s just my personal view.
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Old 2012-08-23, 01:44   Link #1546
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Yup. But don’t we have a part of us that hate other people? Even between families & couples. A dad has a part of him that hates his son (& vice versa), a husband has a part of him that hates his wife (& vice versa) etc. I think it’s normal. Unfortunately (or fortunately, chara development-wise) both Inaba & Taichi is just having bad-luck (or trolled) with Inaba knowing that particular part of Taichi that hates her. There’s no reason to hate any of the characters for that single incident, but that’s just my personal view.
Actually, I do agree with you here too. And as was already alluded to in this thread, and perhaps most important to this point, we all have a part of us that hates ourselves. In some cases, that part could even be the most influential part. We certainly see that Taichi is tearing at Himeko's insecurities, but I think that's ultimately because it's tearing at his own insecurities as well.

Personally, I don't hate any of the characters because I think the things they struggle with are all generally realistic complexes and fears that are only being brought to the surface because of the story. We constantly see these sorts of archetypes in anime (and even sometimes in real life), but how many times do we really get to see an inner look at how they really work?

As a personal anecdote, I've never drank alcohol in my life, and I don't think I ever will. The key reason is because I am afraid of what I might say if I wasn't able to keep myself under control. Not that I think I'd do anything dangerous... but I know how I think, and it's not always nice or friendly. I can be cold, cynical and judgemental... and I don't like that part of me. Maybe I'm taking it to an extreme, but I think we all live our lives to some degree trying to project the person we want to be. When we lose that control, we may not like what we become. As is the topic of countless movies and superhero plots, life is often about containing the darkness within. If I hated a character for occasional forced glimpses at that darkness, it really would be no different than hating what it is to be human. We all have our struggles.
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Old 2012-08-23, 02:41   Link #1547
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Like I said, In Taichi’s case, his form of “responsibility” is forcedly taken from him by HS by completely eliminating his ego. Imo, no normal human has ever experienced losing the entire ego, except maybe for crazy people (and crazy people can’t be blame for what they did). Thus, I don’t think Taichi is at fault here for that single act. Even if he did say "It wasn't me, it was my desire/emotion." It’s still true. He’s not at fault coz, naturally, his “real” self might never said that kinda words in that kinda situation to Inaba. Basically, you can’t blame a person when he/she, at some point, think bad about others. You can only blame him/her when he/she deliberately put it into action and offend others (which Taichi didn’t).
You're putting too much stress on the conscious side of the self. If you focus solely on that, you'd end up omitting an even larger part of self identity which is the unconscious self. Take note that the unconscious self is extremely elusive and can only be speculated at through the behavior of the conscious self. Now, this arc creates a hypothetical scenario where this hidden aspect of the self can be expressed directly, so what is the problem with making inferences out of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Drawing theories from what we’re shown is very much fine, of course. It’s just I think we shouldn’t draw conclusions based on their id-mode alone (I’m not saying you did). Id-mode gives us a hint of a character’s psyche, true, but Identity/personality also depends on how you filter your emotion with reasoning.
That much is a given. If you bring it up while responding to my post, then I'd naturally assume that you were referring to something I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I’m not trying to misrepresent you. My original reply to you is regarding what you said that Taichi’s ego-less emotional outburst is unwarranted for him to do so. While in reality, it’s not even his doing (it’s HS’ trolling). If not because of the gimmick, Taichi might never spoke like that or at least he would greatly soften it for Inaba’s sake. That’s the “real” Taichi I think. (I already answered about the psyche hints)
This is where you misunderstood me, I think. If you read it again, I wasn't commenting on Taichi's emotional outburst itself exactly. I was talking about something much deeper, like the sudden impulse that led to the outburst in the first place (relentlessflame's post somewhere above expresses my thoughts nicely). I just figured that it hints at the unrealistic expectations he holds for the people around him. Don't let my dislike for Taichi bother you though, I hate any character with an irrationally self-sacrificing personality on principle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Emotions form the foundation of our expressed behavior as an “intelligent animals”. But the ego & moral greatly help us to become “social creatures named humans”. The combination of both is what makes each of us a “person”, Just my opinion.
It could then be further speculated that the development of the ego is just an offshoot of the human need to conform with the larger group, which is why it is often said that all people hold two faces. One that is shown outwardly and one that remains hidden underneath.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The circumstances of my birth had a large part in my identity formation, but I don't see why I should take responsibility for them. Responsibility is for the things you control.
Maybe we didn't understand each other. Emotions are as much part of the self as is reason. There are and will always be two aspects of the self: the conscious and the unconscious. All I'm saying is that the two are equally representative of the self and that denying even one is denying your own identity. Even if emotions cannot be controlled, they cannot simply be dismissed as something outside the "self".

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In the case of normal outbursts, I'd agree with you. In this case, it's as much an expression of Heartseed's self as it is theirs.
This point is unclear. Like I said, I wasn't talking about the outburst exactly, but the feelings that triggered the occurrence of the outburst.
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Old 2012-08-23, 04:30   Link #1548
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Now, this arc creates a hypothetical scenario where this hidden aspect of the self can be expressed directly, so what is the problem with making inferences out of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
This is where you misunderstood me, I think. If you read it again, I wasn't commenting on Taichi's emotional outburst itself exactly. I was talking about something much deeper, like the sudden impulse that led to the outburst in the first place (relentlessflame's post somewhere above expresses my thoughts nicely). I just figured that it hints at the unrealistic expectations he holds for the people around him. Don't let my dislike for Taichi bother you though, I hate any character with an irrationally self-sacrificing personality on principle.
Question answered and point taken. We’re good.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
It could then be further speculated that the development of the ego is just an offshoot of the human need to conform with the larger group, which is why it is often said that all people hold two faces. One that is shown outwardly and one that remains hidden underneath.
Well, all people show different sides of them in front of others, even family members. Imo nobody can be truly open to other individual. So, ego/facade/mask comes naturally when a human meets & interacts with another human. In short, we all wear “masks” in front of others. The only differences are: how much that “mask” conceal our “true nature” ; and how we use that “mask” when we encounter different kinds of people in different kinds of situation.
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Old 2012-08-23, 04:53   Link #1549
Arya
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
[...] you apparently give Inaba a total pass for all of her many judgmental/rude moments. How often does Inaba call Taichi a "selfless freak"? Last I checked, being called "*anything* freak" was a pretty clear insult, and generally rude.

Does Inaba ever apologize for the rude/insulting things she says to Taichi?
I have to disagree with you. You call it insults, I call it straightforwardness. Can you really say that what Inaban questions to Taichi is wrong? Isn't he a selfless freak? The context matters either. I mean, it's not that she called him in that way to make fun of him, but because she is worried.

Let put it in this way, If I had been an asshole in a specific situation and you pointed out that I have been an asshole, what's the most important thing in all of this? To me is that I have been an asshole, not that you called me in that way.
Surely If I truly was an asshole I would probably focus on the latter ... and would call you in that way too, but that's not the point here
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And like I said before, Inaba doesn't even have the excuse of "unleashed Id" for many of her moments of being insulting. And furthermore, she says such things on a fairly regular basis.

People probably excuse it, in their own minds, because they go "Oh, that's just what Ice Princesses are like".
I admit anyways that her being regular in saying such things is due to her ice princess attitude.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ok, fine. If that's your approach, then much the same can be said about Taichi's moment in this episode - "Oh, that's just what White Knights are like."

"White Knights" do tend to hold their closest friends/allies to high expectations/standards, just like how Ice Princesses often feel free to be blunt and rough with those that they spend a lot of time with.

If you're going to go easy on one character because "That's just how her archetype works", then I don't see why we shouldn't also go easy on another character because "That's just how his archetype works".
There is a big difference as I said , Inaba is not wrong in call him selfless freak, Taichi is wrong in different ways. He is wrong in assuming that she was giving up on Yui and consequently in being judgmental on her and even in his judgment of her. He failed on all the line if I had to say.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Edit:
She's absolutely setting a standard. A very clear standard at that. It's a team-first standard. And Inaba was insisting on Yui following that team-first standard.

I agree with what Inaba said to Yui, but that doesn't make it any less forceful. And there was a clear implication in Inaba's words to Yui that if Yui didn't go along with Inaba's (admittedly good) logic, that Yui would be failing to do her fair share. That Yui would be inferior to the rest going by Inaba's team-first standards.

It's not like they're the NY Yankees, and they're competing for the World Series together. They're not a "team" in the strictest sense of the term. They're just a bunch of friends that happen to be in a club together (a club noticeably lacking in many club-based activities, by the way).

And since they're not really "a team", I think one could question Inaba's insistence on a team-based approach. I personally agree with Inaba's approach there, but it's not like these people are clearly tied together in a way that a sports team is.
Even here I disagree because if you repeated Inaban speech gently to Yui I think Yui would freely agree to that, without feeling forced. Even the implication you talked about, not doing her fair share, is not simply an implication, it's the true. But there is a more relevant implication consequential in not doing her share, the fact that Yui not doing that can put people in danger. That's alone justify it.
But it's the part when you say that Inaba implied Yui being inferior to the rest that I don't see where it comes from. I can't remember any judgment of that sort, not even implied. She, bare-bones, scolded her. That what she did. Or what I saw

And about the team thing. They are a team, or better, they need to be a team. HS forces them to be. You could argue Inaba manners, but she is totally in the right with her way of facing that thing. And giving how their dynamics have been so far, her friends implicitly agreed to it. That matters analyzing her behavior as a whole. She is a bit forceful but hes friends gave her that right.

Anyways it's not that I don't see where you are coming from, if I had to point something out of Inaba, it is that her being the sharpest leaded her in being a bit arrogant/presumptuous: since her way of thinking is right, she claims the right to force people in doing the best thing. And that in a normal situation probably would grate me, but they are in a special situation so the rules have to be altered a bit to adapt to it. Giving even that the escalating nature of the gimmicks and its dangerousness.
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Old 2012-08-23, 04:56   Link #1550
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About the supposedly "team" thing on the part of Inaban: Her talk was closer to "don't just think about yourself, think of who we're dealing with and the repercussions of not thinking about the people in the same situation."
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Old 2012-08-23, 05:18   Link #1551
~Yami~
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finally I'm catching up with the series.... *teary eyes*

Switching body's arc :
honestly when I read the plot, I'll expect an ecchi tag in this anime but fortunately they really don't mess up with this arc....
Many psychological scenes and Taichi is putting a good act in helping all of the members including cold-heart princess, Inaba
They wrap up this arc in a very beautiful way.... just great job!
in this arc, Iori Nagase become the most troubled member because she has personality problem (man! I know how it feels.... I'm in the same boat with her)

Unleashing desires' arc :
at first, I don't think this arc will give more trouble than previous arc. Because it sounds simple... something like unleashing desires to sleep (omg! I have problem with this) and unleashing desires to break the ice (YAHOO!!!! xD)
but looks like in each arc, there are some members who can't deal with Heartseed's trial
in this arc, Taichi really caught up with lots of bad moments... Even Inaba seems like the most troubled member now (I'll put Yui in exception because she just lose her confidence)
let's see who will play the central part in helping everyone because I doubt Taichi can deal with this problem

I can't give any comment regarding Heartseed... He's just too mysterious right now
Something I'm sure about now is Heartseed isn't a human.... It's just a mysterious soul which observed each members daily activities and inner part of their hearts

great job! this season really gives so many awesome anime... I'm really glad I pick up this show
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Old 2012-08-23, 05:26   Link #1552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya View Post
I have to disagree with you. You call it insults, I call it straightforwardness.
Something can be both an insult and accurate. The two are not mutually exclusive.

My dad is horrible at singing. If I say "Dad, you're a horrible singer", it's accurate, but it's also an insult. Which is why it's not something I'd say on a regular basis.

Now, even putting that aside...


Quote:

Can you really say that what Inaban questions to Taichi is wrong?
Actually, yeah, I can.

I honestly don't see anything that weird about Taichi's attitude. Like Blonto and others have said, Taichi is simply being a good friend, maybe a bit above average. Taichi probably doesn't care about himself enough, but it's highly debatable if he takes it so far that he deserves to be called a "selfless freak".


Quote:
I mean, it's not that she called him in that way to make fun of him, but because she is worried.
Saying it to him all the time is a bit much though. It's excessive, and it's insulting, and it's not necessary. And it certainly doesn't seem to be improving matters anyway, does it?


Quote:
There is a big difference as I said , Inaba is not wrong in call him selfless freak, Taichi is wrong in different ways. He is wrong in assuming that she was giving up on Yui and consequently in being judgmental on her and even in his judgment of her. He failed on all the line if I had to say.
I think you're being too harsh. I think it's perfectly understandable why Taichi would think that Inaba was giving up on Yui. I mean, she does in fact seem to be giving up on trying to talk Yui out of her room. I honestly don't blame Inaba for that, because Yui struck me as extremely stubborn and inflexible in the most recent episode. But I can see why Taichi came to the conclusion that he did ("You're not going to try even once more to try to talk Yui out of her room and help her out? Shouldn't you be a better person than that?").


Quote:
Even here I disagree because if you repeated Inaban speech gently to Yui I think Yui would freely agree to that, without feeling forced. Even the implication you talked about, not doing her fair share, is not simply an implication, it's the true.
Again, whether or not something is judgmental isn't simply a measure of accuracy. Something can be judgmental and accurate. If Inaba is saying that Yui isn't doing her fair share, then that is making a judgment on Yui, regardless of how accurate it is.


Quote:
But it's the part when you say that Inaba implied Yui being inferior to the rest that I don't see where it comes from.
It simply logically follows from Inaba's words. If Yui isn't doing her fair share, then she's choosing to be a drag on everybody else. She's putting forward an inferior effort compared to the rest. Inaba pointing that out is obviously judging Yui to some degree.


Quote:
And about the team thing. They are a team, or better, they need to be a team. HS forces them to be. You could argue Inaba manners, but she is totally in the right with her way of facing that thing.
I don't think that's as clear-cut as you're making it sound. Is Inaba's words helping any? If her constantly calling Taichi a "selfless freak" doing any good? Did her scolding of Yui do any good?

When trying to persuade others to act a certain way, the accuracy of your persuasion is honestly less important than how effective your persuasions are in general.


Quote:
And giving how their dynamics have been so far, her friends implicitly agreed to it.
Yeah, but then she didn't bother to come to school the next day anyway.
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Old 2012-08-23, 05:30   Link #1553
Gohan78
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
There is a big difference as I said , Inaba is not wrong in call him selfless freak, Taichi is wrong in different ways. He is wrong in assuming that she was giving up on Yui and consequently in being judgmental on her and even in his judgment of her. He failed on all the line if I had to say.
Taichi is not completely at fault either. Let me explain.
I believe that Inaban is avoiding Yui because she fears that she could have another outburst of rage against her. But, as usual, Inaban doesn't explain herself and the naive Taichi misinterprets her actions.

That being said, I think that Inaban is wrong in avoiding Yui. She is basically running away from her problem instead of facing it. Exactly the same sin she accused Yui of committing before. Inaban is being a bit of a hypocrite here.
Taichi is right in that she should come with them to Yui's but he's too naive to see her real motivation.
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Old 2012-08-23, 06:29   Link #1554
Arya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Something can be both an insult and accurate. The two are not mutually exclusive.

My dad is horrible at singing. If I say "Dad, you're a horrible singer", it's accurate, but it's also an insult. Which is why it's not something I'd say on a regular basis.

Now, even putting that aside...
Well, be honest, that's only because your father doesn't sing at home on a reguar basis
Seriously, basically if hypotetically a friend of yours were an asshole on a regular basis you wouldn't remark each time that to him because, well, it is offensive?


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Actually, yeah, I can.

I honestly don't see anything that weird about Taichi's attitude. Like Blonto and others have said, Taichi is simply being a good friend, maybe a bit above average. Taichi probably doesn't care about himself enough, but it's highly debatable if he takes it so far that he deserves to be called a "selfless freak".
Here we are speaking of two different things, I guess. You refers to what Taichi appears to be, or is right now. Inaba is a step ahead. She already saw through him. (for example, she already pointed out how he could be the person most in danger giving her self-sacrifice attitude in this arc). For that reason our interpretations differ.
Or you do think that he is truly a "white knight" with no dark side. So our point of views would differ even more.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Saying it to him all the time is a bit much though. It's excessive, and it's insulting, and it's not necessary. And it certainly doesn't seem to be improving matters anyway, does it?
Fair.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think you're being too harsh. I think it's perfectly understandable why Taichi would think that Inaba was giving up on Yui. I mean, she does in fact seem to be giving up on trying to talk Yui out of her room. I honestly don't blame Inaba for that, because Yui struck me as extremely stubborn and inflexible in the most recent episode. But I can see why Taichi came to the conclusion that he did ("You're not going to try even once more to try to talk Yui out of her room and help her out? Shouldn't you be a better person than that?").
Understandable, but still wrong. Then for the same reason he should have apologized right away. If that's his level of deduction.

Anyways I'm less harsh than what it seems. I'm pointing out where he is wrong, but more as a mirror of what hides behind it and not simply out of harshness.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Again, whether or not something is judgmental isn't simply a measure of accuracy. Something can be judgmental and accurate. If Inaba is saying that Yui isn't doing her fair share, then that is making a judgment on Yui, regardless of how accurate it is.

It simply logically follows from Inaba's words. If Yui isn't doing her fair share, then she's choosing to be a drag on everybody else. She's putting forward an inferior effort compared to the rest. Inaba pointing that out is obviously judging Yui to some degree.
I have all the rights to be judgmental if that said thing could affect other people. But to me here you are focusing on a marginal aspect of the whole concept, that is the dangerousness of her behavior.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post


I don't think that's as clear-cut as you're making it sound. Is Inaba's words helping any? If her constantly calling Taichi a "selfless freak" doing any good? Did her scolding of Yui do any good?

When trying to persuade others to act a certain way, the accuracy of your persuasion is honestly less important than how effective your persuasions are in general.


Yeah, but then she didn't bother to come to school the next day anyway.
Just to say that "offending" taichi and scolding Yui can't be put on the same boat, because Yui's scolding was caused by HS, so the outcome can't be discussed as something intended by Inaba (or Taichi, for his part).
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Old 2012-08-23, 06:35   Link #1555
Blonto
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So far I completely agree with Triple_R. There’s definitively this double standard in regards to Inaba and Taichi. Inaba is rude and insensitive on a regular basis, but when Taichi does anything slightly aggressive he's suddenly a villain.
Here’s what happens:
Yui causes an incident. She retreats out of fear of causing further physical harm.
Inaba comes and tells her to think of everyone else because Heartseed might do some unclear undefined thing that may make the situation worse somehow (seriously, what can he do? He made it pretty clear he wouldn't hurt innocent people). She tries to shove responsibility onto Yui for their well-being and make her feel guilty. As a result she messes up the situation even more. I’m not surprised Yui refused to continue playing Heartseed's game in fear of some vague unclear retribution, especially after Inaba acted like that.

After that, Inaba retreats out of fear of hurting her friends.
Taichi tells her to help out a friend, instead of running away. He says he’s disappointed because he felt Inaba wasn’t the kind of person to leave her friends behind. Not only does Inaba refuse to help Yui, she’s doing the exact same thing Yui is.
But somehow, this time Taichi ends up being the villain here, he’s the one who’s being insensitive, even though his intentions are less selfish than Inaba's were (he's saying "We need to help out a friend", she was saying "You're putting us all at risk for not suffering with us"). Apparently everything Inaba said about how running away puts others at risk doesn’t apply to her.

I’m not judging Inaba, I can understand that she needs to take some time off. But objectively speaking her actions are even more unreasonable than others’. At least Yui’s fear is legitimate because if she beats someone up, she could mess with the police.
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Old 2012-08-23, 06:40   Link #1556
Arya
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Taichi is not completely at fault either. Let me explain.
I believe that Inaban is avoiding Yui because she fears that she could have another outburst of rage against her. But, as usual, Inaban doesn't explain herself and the naive Taichi misinterprets her actions.
Agree. But IIRC Inaba has been less obscure than usual about her motives.

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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
That being said, I think that Inaban is wrong in avoiding Yui. She is basically running away from her problem instead of facing it. Exactly the same sin she accused Yui of committing before. Inaban is being a bit of a hypocrite here.
Taichi is right in that she should come with them to Yui's but he's too naive to see her real motivation.
Are you saying that on a deeper level Inaban is truly using that as an excuse to run away? On that point I disagree, but it could even be true.
To me other than for Yui, she did that because truly she needed time to recover from her having been mean to Yui, so no excuses, simply what she stated. She put herself before Yui in a way. Nothing I can blame her for. And that was not something that would last forever. She had taken her time to put herself together (I guess).

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Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
(seriously, what can he do? He made it pretty clear he wouldn't hurt innocent people).
Just this point.
Doesn't Yui get hurt by hurting those guys? What does it means, that she is not innocent? Speaking of those guys, we don't know if Yui didn't go too far in beating them or not. It would be right anyways? Giving the fact that Yui got hurt, it seems to imply that she went too far, so it's not right, i.e. she is guilty. isn't it a paradox or something very near to?
All that to say how feebly is that word, innocent. (even if I'm with Yui btw whatever the case was).
And how Inaba is ahead on the whole matter.
Conclusively, yes probably I have a double standard, I'm not denying it. Even if I don't think it is the case (no, really? ). I cant' deny the flawless of her thoughts fascinate me.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-23 at 13:10. Reason: please edit rather than double-posting
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Old 2012-08-23, 08:25   Link #1557
Blonto
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
Just this point.
Doesn't Yui get hurt by hurting those guys? What does it means, that she is not innocent? Speaking of those guys, we don't know if Yui didn't go too far in beating them or not. It would be right anyways? Giving the fact that Yui got hurt, it seems to imply that she went too far, so it's not right, i.e. she is guilty. isn't it a paradox or something very near to?
All that to say how feebly is that word, innocent. (even if I'm with Yui btw whatever the case was).
And how Inaba is ahead on the whole matter.
Conclusively, yes probably I have a double standard, I'm not denying it. Even if I don't think it is the case (no, really? ). I cant' deny the flawless of her thoughts fascinate me.
What are you talking about? Yui didn't get hurt. She had an episode that was in no way different from anybody else's. If she went too far, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't just walk out of the police station with no problems. Even if she went too far, it would be Heartseed's fault, not hers.
Heartseed didn't tell Yui that he'd mess with them if someone quit, but he did tell Inaba. And even with that warning in mind, and after yelling at Yui for leaving the others, she hypocritically does the same thing. I wouldn't call that flawless.

If Heartseed got bored of Yui's hikkikomori routine, he'd just unleash her desire to go see her friends for a while and voila. I doubt the same trick of putting their friend in fake mortal danger would work twice.
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Old 2012-08-23, 08:49   Link #1558
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
I’m not judging Inaba, I can understand that she needs to take some time off. But objectively speaking her actions are even more unreasonable than others’. At least Yui’s fear is legitimate because if she beats someone up, she could mess with the police.
You know, I'd agree about Himeko being hypocritical. In fact, that was probably the point. She was angry, confused, and distressed at the current situation, and it probably irritated her even more to see Yui taking the easy way out, so all she could do was to lash out. Eventually, she had no choice to give in to her self-loathing and fear. She's been established to be a distrustful and self-centered character, so such an interpretation fits her nicely.

However, one thing I can't agree with is when you say that her fears are not legitimate. Each and every one of them is trapped in a situation outside their control. They are in constant danger of themselves. There should be nothing wrong with experiencing fear in such a situation. The problem isn't just limited to inflicting physical damage. This is a state where a single idle thought or a slip of tongue could permanently damage one's social identity. While she can't beat up a group of people, her sharp tongue could potentially do much worse.
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Old 2012-08-23, 08:59   Link #1559
frivolity
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The limits of Heartseed's powers have not been fully revealed. I don't think a question of "what can he do?" is appropriate when applied to someone who can force multiple body switches and unleash people's desires. The last time things got boring, somebody ended up jumping off a bridge. There's nothing wrong with being afraid of what would happen this time.

There is a difference between what Yui and Himiko are doing. Yui is cooping herself up in her room completely, while Himiko still attends school. The contention with regard to Yui "running away" was that staying at home and avoiding all contact would only serve to induce Heartseed to intervene even further. On the other hand, "running away" from friends was not what the initial outburst was about at all. As such, there is no hypocrisy over the two of them "running away".
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Old 2012-08-23, 09:07   Link #1560
Blonto
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
You know, I'd agree about Himeko being hypocritical. In fact, that was probably the point. She was angry, confused, and distressed at the current situation, and it probably irritated her even more to see Yui taking the easy way out, so all she could do was to lash out. Eventually, she had no choice to give in to her self-loathing and fear. She's been established to be a distrustful and self-centered character, so such an interpretation fits her nicely.
That's also what I think happened. And I'm completely ok with that. It's not kind of her, but it is human and I can't fault her for that since I'd probably do the same. What I'm not ok with is people painting her as a victim and making Taichi seem like a jackass for not reading her mind. Not to mention people saying how she's right about yelling at Yui for running away, but defending her when she does the same.

Quote:
However, one thing I can't agree with is when you say that her fears are not legitimate. Each and every one of them is trapped in a situation outside their control. They are in constant danger of themselves. There should be nothing wrong with experiencing fear in such a situation. The problem isn't just limited to inflicting physical damage. This is a state where a single idle thought or a slip of tongue could permanently damage one's social identity. While she can't beat up a group of people, her sharp tongue could potentially do much worse.
Causing physical harm and messing with the police are much worse than lashing out at a few friends, especially for a person who's already pretty honest. Still, I wasn't saying that Inaba doesn't have any reason to fear since she can easily lose the few friends she has, however it's not on the same level as Yui's, who can get into serious (and legal) trouble.
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