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Old 2012-08-27, 12:44   Link #1661
Sphire
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Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
I like what they're trying to do with Taichi's character, but I think the way they're doing it doesn't quite work. I can only rely on what he and others say about him regarding his selfless freak personality, because the events themselves don't have a single instance when he crossed the line.

I think Inaba is a much better person than she thinks she is, but she's being held back by self-hate. Her lack of trust makes her think she's a bad person in general so she acts with that image in mind.

I'll take a bite of my hypothetical hat for the argument between Aoki and Taichi. I can't believe Taichi actually called him useless, I was sure no-one in the show would notice that. It was refreshing seeing Aoki get angry and jealous, rather than just laugh about it. It shows that there's some bitterness under his goofy personality.

I hate Fujishima. She's the obnoxious shipper character who constantly butts into other people's business. Guardian Enzo described well what bothers me about her. And dear God, Watase. The show was doing great without your type of character. Why do you even have a name?

The animation was pretty bad this episode. It's not like the characters are hard to draw, so I'm not sure why it had to go downhill like that.

As for the sexism, I don't think it's fair to judge the whole show based on a comment by an unimportant character. Besides, girls are weaker than guys. There should be no shame in admitting that.
The problem plaguing this show switched from being gender-based to being main-triangle based. It's a common problem in stories, not only in anime, where the story will never reach its full potential because it forces itself to be seen from the eyes of the protagonist. I really wish we could've seen all the characters develop and interact, but unfortunately since Taichi has to be there to fix everyone's problems that pretty much pulls the brakes on other characters from developing or helping each other when he isn't present, and for no good reason really.
You and I have been in agreement with regards to this show for the most part, and that still rings true here. Except for one point, which I'll discuss at the end here.

I'm getting slightly ok with all the Taichi push (although it is sad the other characters are relegated), perhaps because I'm now seeing this show as having 1 protagonist, instead of 5 (or maybe I've just come to accept that). And it helps that Taichi's knight armor is getting undone, although the way Fujishima worded her words might push Taichi to become even more of a white knight. I don't really have a problem with his mentality, but moreso how the story ALLOWS him to be the white knight.

And at least the writer is pointing out how the others have been 'meh', by having Taichi call Aoki useless. Also, did Aoki have a desire moment too in that verbal fight? Because, if he did, that was weak as hell. At least we see Aoki might be doing something in the preview for next week.

Now for the part I disagree with, is the inclusion of more characters. Now granted, you seem to dislike the type of people we're seeing rather than objecting to having more characters, and that is true, but I'm still glad we're getting more characters. Seeing how the other 4 main casts have failed to live up to Taichi standards (with Inaba being closest), I'm happy to have more people to provide insight. Especially considering the show has been rather closed/focused on just the 5 people (I mean Iori nearly drowned yet I don't remember her mother noticing...). It's like a breath of fresh air. Plus I was kind hoping part of how they would overcome their issue would be by 'trusting' other people to have their backs, but that may just be wishful thinking.

I didn't like Fujishima to begin with either, but at least she's someone else besides Taichi doing something. Plus, she has a great VA!
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:07   Link #1662
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I would agree with the notion that more characters is good in theory, dubious in practice. I like the notion that the core group is going to be exposed to more viewpoints, but I have issues with Fujishima for reasons I've already stated. As for Watase, who knows? We basically know nothing about him except he's a Fujishima fanboy.

As to Taichi, I actually don't think his role in the story has changed much, if at all. He's always been tops in terms of screen time, but very little developed outside his role in driving the plot. Are we any closer to knowing why he is the person he is? The problem is that Yui, Inaba and Nagase are pretty much an open book at this point - the series has flayed their psyche and exposed it, raw and painful, to the world. But we still don't know why Taichi has the impulses he does. Until the story decides to unravel him the way it has the girls, the series is kind of stuck in neutral.

I also find it interesting that Taichi's altruism is treated almost universally as a disorder, both by characters and by viewers. The notion that all selflessness is a form of selfishness, born of as desire to meet a need in ourselves rather than truly help others, is definitely one of the big questions the show is exploring. But if the results are good, does it really matter - wouldn't the world be a better place if more people were like that rather than overtly dedicated to their self-interest?

Of course in Taichi's case, the results aren't good much of the time - at least so far. Maybe the message is "Physician, heal thyself" - until Taichi selfishly worries about his own happiness a little more, he won't be any good to other people either.
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:50   Link #1663
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I didn't really like Fujishima's character in the first arc but I think she's been handled well in this second one and I enjoyed her perceptiveness and insight with her conversation with Taichi and how she tried to help Iori solve her problems with her club friends just from observing their behaviour. I just think it's good to see secondary characters be more proactive and act like characters in their own right. Though I do see how she can be perceived as the authors convenient all in one plot device.
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Old 2012-08-27, 15:06   Link #1664
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Originally Posted by Sphire View Post
You and I have been in agreement with regards to this show for the most part, and that still rings true here. Except for one point, which I'll discuss at the end here.

I'm getting slightly ok with all the Taichi push (although it is sad the other characters are relegated), perhaps because I'm now seeing this show as having 1 protagonist, instead of 5 (or maybe I've just come to accept that). And it helps that Taichi's knight armor is getting undone, although the way Fujishima worded her words might push Taichi to become even more of a white knight. I don't really have a problem with his mentality, but moreso how the story ALLOWS him to be the white knight.

And at least the writer is pointing out how the others have been 'meh', by having Taichi call Aoki useless. Also, did Aoki have a desire moment too in that verbal fight? Because, if he did, that was weak as hell. At least we see Aoki might be doing something in the preview for next week.

Now for the part I disagree with, is the inclusion of more characters. Now granted, you seem to dislike the type of people we're seeing rather than objecting to having more characters, and that is true, but I'm still glad we're getting more characters. Seeing how the other 4 main casts have failed to live up to Taichi standards (with Inaba being closest), I'm happy to have more people to provide insight. Especially considering the show has been rather closed/focused on just the 5 people (I mean Iori nearly drowned yet I don't remember her mother noticing...). It's like a breath of fresh air. Plus I was kind hoping part of how they would overcome their issue would be by 'trusting' other people to have their backs, but that may just be wishful thinking.

I didn't like Fujishima to begin with either, but at least she's someone else besides Taichi doing something. Plus, she has a great VA!
I'm grudgingly accepting that Taichi is the main character, but I can't help but think the show could've been so much more complex had the characters been given a chance to interact naturally. Instead it's taking the first-person approach it really, really doesn't need.

I think by having the creator point out a character's inactivity, it appears less like he forgot them and more like he made an intentional decision that will have its consequence later on. In this case, Aoki got flak for not doing anything. I don't think it excuses his inactivity as a character, but at least it's a step in the right direction. I don't think Aoki's desires were unleashed in that fight, he'd probably apologize or say something if that were the case.

I didn't say I was against having more characters, I was bothered only by the type of characters they included. The problem with Fujishima is that she just does whatever the writer wants her to do so she feels more like a plot device. Watase (can't believe I remember his name) is the typical idiot classmate/friend that hangs around the MC and whose only conversations revolve around girls or telling the MC how lucky he is for scoring. There's one like this in every harem.
Now, I admit if I was writing this story, I'd focus mostly on the club members and their families, especially since this is a 1-cour show. These gimmicks ask for a degree of familiarity within the group because they ruin, strengthen and dig deeper into existing relationships. The secrecy surrounding the issue prevents outside characters from being involved beyond scratching their heads in confusion or giving vague advice. But this is only how I'd go with the premise and not criticism since I prefer more of a short story format. I'm not at all opposed to the writers' decision to add more characters if they believe it will improve the show. This episode was about Taichi+3 characters I don't care about in the slightest, but I can see how it was necessary as a sort of a vacation the club members have to take from eachother. However, the way the show is playing out, I do think it'd be wiser for them to use the screentime for characters that actually matter.

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I don't really have a problem with his mentality, but moreso how the story ALLOWS him to be the white knight.
Could you clarify this?

Last edited by Blonto; 2012-08-27 at 15:20.
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Old 2012-08-27, 16:35   Link #1665
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I think by having the creator point out a character's inactivity, it appears less like he forgot them and more like he made an intentional decision that will have its consequence later on. In this case, Aoki got flak for not doing anything. I don't think it excuses his inactivity as a character, but at least it's a step in the right direction. I don't think Aoki's desires were unleashed in that fight, he'd probably apologize or say something if that were the case.
The reason I ask is because Aoki does apologise at the very end and said he didn't mean it, after Iori gets whacked. I mean he doesn't even flinch after Iori gets whacked, and just continues his verbal assault on Taichi. It was just weird. And as for the writer pointing out Aoki's inactivity so far, I guess we'll have to see how it goes. I can't say I'm holding my breath though.

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I didn't say I was against having more characters, I was bothered only by the type of characters they included. The problem with Fujishima is that she just does whatever the writer wants her to do so she feels more like a plot device. Watase (can't believe I remember his name) is the typical idiot classmate/friend that hangs around the MC and whose only conversations revolve around girls or telling the MC how lucky he is for scoring. There's one like this in every harem.
Yea, I apologise. I didn't really word my post right. I can totally understand not liking either Fujishima or Watase or even Go (especially since Go and Fuji gave practically the same advice). At least how they are used (personalities) and the fact that it's forced due to the main gang dispersing (plot devices). I guess I like the fact we have people coming in without over-the-top issues like the main gang that it makes their presence more uplifting than seeing the main gang themselves (except for Iori, in this arc at least). Of course, I'm also expecting some developments from these people and not just hit-or-miss comedy, which may be foolish of me given how things have gone so far.

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Originally Posted by Sphire View Post
I don't really have a problem with his mentality, but moreso how the story ALLOWS him to be the white knight.
Could you clarify this?
Hmm, again, I may not have worded that right. By mentality I mean the basic 'I want to help' mentality he has. As of right now, we don't really know his issues or if he actually does it for pure selfish reasons. But what I meant was the 'I want to help' bit.

In that sense, basically the things both of us have mentioned before. How what Taichi has done isn't really anything special. He's just been allowed to do it. The story is making Taichi into the white knight. Inaba telling him the issues of Yui and Iori when she didn't have to or perhaps when she could've done something herself. Heartseed swapping him with Yui in arc 1 even though I'm sure Aoki had similar feelings of wanting to help Yui, but no, Heartseed chose Taichi. Yui being a black belt yet requiring ball kicks to help her overcome her problem. Then you have the fact that everyone is calling him a selfless freak, which doesn't help. It doesn't help that what he actually does doesn't seem all that brilliant either (which may be the point that Aoki made about how Taichi is just looking for quick fixes; so I'll give that some slack). Although part of that is that I also don't really 'get' Iori's and Inaba's problems.

And when not a white knight, he's still the center of attention. Involved in a love triangle (God knows why Inaba and Iori like him in the first place...). The person we see the most interact with others (at the expense of the rest of the gang developing off one another). And seemingly the only one who can do anything (help everyone in arc 1, and it looks like he's gonna be the one to figure out what to do in arc 2...).

As for his remark about guys protecting girls, it would give credence as to why he's only been helping the girls. He doesn't seem to give a damn about Aoki.

And if his intentions aren't pure (he seems to have had the most desire outbursts)? Then...I guess...he's...the dark knight !
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Old 2012-08-27, 20:12   Link #1666
Kenju of the Right
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Aoki being Taichi's opposite? That would be interesting

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I also find it interesting that Taichi's altruism is treated almost universally as a disorder, both by characters and by viewers. The notion that all selflessness is a form of selfishness, born of as desire to meet a need in ourselves rather than truly help others, is definitely one of the big questions the show is exploring. But if the results are good, does it really matter - wouldn't the world be a better place if more people were like that rather than overtly dedicated to their self-interest?
I was thinking the same about, I don't necessarily see it as some problem.
There are plenty of people that stand by and do nothing just because they don't have a reason to or looking out for themselves

Then again Taichi did offer himself to die instead of Iori. The issue to me is just that he goes too far
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Old 2012-08-27, 21:09   Link #1667
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Sphire View Post
In that sense, basically the things both of us have mentioned before. How what Taichi has done isn't really anything special. He's just been allowed to do it. The story is making Taichi into the white knight. Inaba telling him the issues of Yui and Iori when she didn't have to or perhaps when she could've done something herself. Heartseed swapping him with Yui in arc 1 even though I'm sure Aoki had similar feelings of wanting to help Yui, but no, Heartseed chose Taichi. Yui being a black belt yet requiring ball kicks to help her overcome her problem. Then you have the fact that everyone is calling him a selfless freak, which doesn't help. It doesn't help that what he actually does doesn't seem all that brilliant either (which may be the point that Aoki made about how Taichi is just looking for quick fixes; so I'll give that some slack). Although part of that is that I also don't really 'get' Iori's and Inaba's problems.
Inaba won't help because she's Inaba. She has her own issues to deal with, like her mistrust of other people. It's not in her personality to help others directly.
Aoki could have chosen to go to Yui after he was told about her trauma but he didn't.
Yui needed to be shown males aren't scary. Think she was already learning karate when she was assaulted? And only barely managed to fight the guy off. Which would explain why she may have this inner doubt that being a black belt won't help her because of the inherent differences between a males strength and a females.

And using a quick fix is better than doing NOTHING.

Quote:
As for his remark about guys protecting girls, it would give credence as to why he's only been helping the girls. He doesn't seem to give a damn about Aoki.
To be fair, apparently Aoki so far has had the most 'normal' and stable personality. I would have said Iori did in episode 1 but no , she had some hidden trauma Inaba knows about.
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Old 2012-08-28, 01:08   Link #1668
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Old 2012-08-28, 01:11   Link #1669
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That is sooooo adorable!!!! *feels all mushy*
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Old 2012-08-28, 03:41   Link #1670
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I also find it interesting that Taichi's altruism is treated almost universally as a disorder, both by characters and by viewers. The notion that all selflessness is a form of selfishness, born of as desire to meet a need in ourselves rather than truly help others, is definitely one of the big questions the show is exploring. But if the results are good, does it really matter - wouldn't the world be a better place if more people were like that rather than overtly dedicated to their self-interest?

Of course in Taichi's case, the results aren't good much of the time - at least so far. Maybe the message is "Physician, heal thyself" - until Taichi selfishly worries about his own happiness a little more, he won't be any good to other people either.
Speaking of how the altruism is perceived, I guess that it depends mostly by what the show intend to convey, namely the characters are treating it as a disorder because that was intended by the author (I guess, so far). Part of the viewers are simply following what the show is giving them. What I'm trying to say, since I feel a bit of disagreement in your comment, is that viewers' point of view is a direct consequence of that, so it's not an absolute conception, but simply related to this specific context and character.
Generally speaking I agree with you about selflessness and I see it as a mixture of selfishness and truly desire of help people, where the former is completely "forgiven" for the latter.
In Taichi's case the author is giving him a shadow of negativity because that what he is doing with all the characters. So, I don't really know if he is trying to fully explore selflessness per se, or he is trying to explore selfishness instead.
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Old 2012-08-28, 03:54   Link #1671
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well, the argument in ep8 seemed more like an issue of Aoki being jealous cause he's been useless so far than any actual perception of Taichi being an actual freak
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Old 2012-08-28, 05:38   Link #1672
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If you are referring to my post, my comment was related to the overall view the series is trying to convey, or better, guessing at it.
Speaking instead of ep. 8 I felt that the argument was equally shared out between both of them. I mean, the way Taichi reacted, with no gimmicks in action, and the whole scene in which Iori got hit was an exemplification of what Aoki said just before apologizing. That Taichi doesn't care think, at the moment, of any side effects (he takes care of it afterward, I'd add). Iori is an example of "side effect", not that Taichi wanted to hit her nor that he would have if gimmick wasn't in action, that scene is emphasized by that, but has highlighted that it is still an issue. Inaba couuld count as another side effect. Aoki is more debatable. I wouldn't count him in.
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Old 2012-08-28, 05:55   Link #1673
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The reason I ask is because Aoki does apologise at the very end and said he didn't mean it, after Iori gets whacked. I mean he doesn't even flinch after Iori gets whacked, and just continues his verbal assault on Taichi. It was just weird. And as for the writer pointing out Aoki's inactivity so far, I guess we'll have to see how it goes. I can't say I'm holding my breath though.
I figured he was so angry at Taichi that he cared more about proving he's right than Iori's well-being.
Judging from the preview, Aoki will probably help Yui get her act together. There's no way he won't be accompanied by Taichi though. Taichi is like a camera, he has to be there even if he doesn't do much.

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Hmm, again, I may not have worded that right. By mentality I mean the basic 'I want to help' mentality he has. As of right now, we don't really know his issues or if he actually does it for pure selfish reasons. But what I meant was the 'I want to help' bit.
You didn't word yourself badly, I just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant. I agree that the story goes out of its way to allow Taichi to help others. Solving the girls' problems didn't ask for any big sacrifices that would require someone of Taichi's caliber (assuming he's as obsessed with helping as we're told) and yet he's pushed to the forefront every time. Though thankfully the problems seem to persist so it's not like the hero fixes a trauma in literally five minutes.
In a way I'm glad it was Taichi who helped Yui, rather than Aoki. It's refreshing to see a guy help a colleague without necessarily having any romantic interest in her. I just don't see why it had to be him for all three girls.

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As for his remark about guys protecting girls, it would give credence as to why he's only been helping the girls. He doesn't seem to give a damn about Aoki.
It's not that Taichi only picks girls, it's just that Aoki doesn't have any significant issues due to his lack of boobs.

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And if his intentions aren't pure (he seems to have had the most desire outbursts)? Then...I guess...he's...the dark knight !
Now he just needs tons of money and dead parents.
Does he even have parents? I can't remember. We saw Iori, Aoki and Yui's parents, kinda weird we wouldn't see the main character's.

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Inaba won't help because she's Inaba. She has her own issues to deal with, like her mistrust of other people. It's not in her personality to help others directly.
I really don't think Inaba is as selfish as she appears. She has multiple times tried to cheer up her club mates and her reason for not helping didn't seem to be because she didn't care but because she didn't know how to help.
Speaking of not helping, does Aoki even know why Yui is afraid of guys? He seems to be the only one left in the dark.
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Old 2012-08-28, 06:32   Link #1674
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And if his intentions aren't pure (he seems to have had the most desire outbursts)? Then...I guess...he's...the dark knight !
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Now he just needs tons of money and dead parents.
and Inaba as the "Cat Burglar" who troll him every week.
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Old 2012-08-28, 06:55   Link #1675
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I really don't think Inaba is as selfish as she appears. She has multiple times tried to cheer up her club mates and her reason for not helping didn't seem to be because she didn't care but because she didn't know how to help.
Speaking of not helping, does Aoki even know why Yui is afraid of guys? He seems to be the only one left in the dark.
It's not being selfish. She did tell Taichi the secret to helping them after all. But; and if you've ever watched evangelion, you'll get this reference, she has hedgehog syndrome. She is afraid to get close to others because she'll get hurt in return. This includes helping them directly.

Aoki does know iirc. Inaba told the two males when they were together I think
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Old 2012-08-28, 08:07   Link #1676
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Late getting into this series.

I've only watched up to episode 3, and like how things are being done so far.
Thought there would only be comedy because of the body switching theme, surprised that there's some drama as well.

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Old 2012-08-28, 08:09   Link #1677
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As to Taichi, I actually don't think his role in the story has changed much, if at all. He's always been tops in terms of screen time, but very little developed outside his role in driving the plot. Are we any closer to knowing why he is the person he is? The problem is that Yui, Inaba and Nagase are pretty much an open book at this point - the series has flayed their psyche and exposed it, raw and painful, to the world. But we still don't know why Taichi has the impulses he does. Until the story decides to unravel him the way it has the girls, the series is kind of stuck in neutral.
I agree with this. I'm not going to accept a lazy explanation like "that's just the way he is." Since the show itself is determined to portray Taichi's condition as abnormal, I'd like to see a fitting justification for his deviant personality.

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I also find it interesting that Taichi's altruism is treated almost universally as a disorder, both by characters and by viewers. The notion that all selflessness is a form of selfishness, born of as desire to meet a need in ourselves rather than truly help others, is definitely one of the big questions the show is exploring. But if the results are good, does it really matter - wouldn't the world be a better place if more people were like that rather than overtly dedicated to their self-interest?
As you mentioned, the world IS completely dedicated to self-interest, or rather that's the message the show keeps drilling into us. Whether it manifests as seemingly altruistic behavior or something else, human behavior is ultimately self-serving. But why does that have to be a bad thing? The notion that "selflessness is good and selfishness is bad" is just a form of cultural bias on our part. They are little more than sentiments that are strongly enforced through strict societal conditioning.

Of course, selflessness is much more ideal in sustaining the stability of a larger group while selfishness works for the sustenance of the individual. In truth, neither is more important that the other. While humans may be social creatures, they are still individual organisms that must tend to themselves. As such, I really don't see the need to put the idea of "selflessness" on a pedestal here.
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Old 2012-08-28, 08:33   Link #1678
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It's not being selfish. She did tell Taichi the secret to helping them after all. But; and if you've ever watched evangelion, you'll get this reference, she has hedgehog syndrome. She is afraid to get close to others because she'll get hurt in return. This includes helping them directly.
I can't remember her telling Taichi any secret to helping the girls. She knew about the problems since both girls (for whatever reason) decided to confide in her. It's not like helping them would make her open up and reveal some dark secret. Inaba likes feeling in control of the situation and she also cares about her friends' well-being. It doesn't make sense to me that she wouldn't try to fix the problem.
If the show focused on all the characters we could see why Inaba wouldn't want to get involved, but this way it's pretty obvious it's only because the writer gave Taichi special privileges.
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:11   Link #1679
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Now in 8bit !

The characters have barely recognizable sprites... -.-
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:20   Link #1680
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Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
I can't remember her telling Taichi any secret to helping the girls. She knew about the problems since both girls (for whatever reason) decided to confide in her. It's not like helping them would make her open up and reveal some dark secret. Inaba likes feeling in control of the situation and she also cares about her friends' well-being. It doesn't make sense to me that she wouldn't try to fix the problem.
If the show focused on all the characters we could see why Inaba wouldn't want to get involved, but this way it's pretty obvious it's only because the writer gave Taichi special privileges.
Knowing the problem was the secret. Instead of randomly having to guess if they had any issue, Taichi got hints from her. In galgames, she would be the best friend who constantly tells the protag stuff about the girls.

And Inaba wouldn't try to fix the problem because a) she doesnt like to get close to people and when you're helping people, you have to get closer to them b)she is not a proactive person. She's a passive personality. Hence why this particular arc is wrecking havoc with her because she keeps a lot of things inside. It's not really easy to understand unless you realise Inaba basically has huge trust issues. People with huge trust issues? They're usually not the type who will go and help people directly.
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