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Old 2012-08-28, 20:38   Link #1701
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Shimapan View Post
All that his little sister meant by that is that he should go and make up again with his "girl friend", which she assumed she should have. It wasn't meant as a statement in general, so it shouldn't be taken as such.

It's not even culture specific, a little sister over here could just say the very same thing in an attempt to get her big brother make up with his girl friend again.
Ummm.....Shimapan, plase take a look at FlawFinder's post that I quoted within my post that you quoted (or FlawFinder's post right after yours). I'm not to one who complain about the sister's line, it's FlawFinder. So, why did you quote me for that?
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:33   Link #1702
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
We're used to it.

Besides, at this point it's almost comical.
You mean it wasn't comical before? Anyways, I promise that I'll stop commenting on that line if people would stop quoting me. I did have other problems with the episode before I noticed it (like the fact that besides Inaba, I find the characters irritating and too tied to the story), but I tried to push them away because I wanted to like the episode for what it was.
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Old 2012-08-29, 03:16   Link #1703
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Originally Posted by Shimapan View Post
Taichi's apology finally came, but - as expected - to late, to little. The damage was already done, and Inaban had already decided to distance herself. If he'd apologised right away, he could've possibly still done some damage control, but this late, it just felt very insincere, something that was just done like an afterthought.
I gave him credit for not pleading the "Heartseed defense". Even when Inaba suggested that it was just an episode and "it couldn't be helped" (boy, do the Japanese love this phrase!), he denied it and took responsibility for his words.

Quote:
Then Taichi goes and shoves Iori around harshly. Unleashing or not, someone who actually *wants* to shove girls around harshly like that can't have a good character. That's just oil in the fire of my theory
It's not like Taichi wanted to hurt Iori. He grabbed his bag and accidentally pushed Iori away. It was just an accident.

Quote:
Iori is doing an admirable job of not giving up and still trying to fix things. I wouldn't have expected her to be that strong.
Agreed. She definitely gained a lot of points in my book.
Inaba is still my favourite but she is not helping anyone in this situation.

Quote:
HeartSeed's objective is getting ever more unclear. While in the first arc, you could still assume that he's at least neutral, doing it only for fun, or even benevolent, trying to help them to get to know each other better.
That would still hold true for the very beginning of Kizu, where Inaban advanced on Taichi. It could've been for Inaban to realise her feelings for Taichi.
But after that, the unleashing was only used to have them attacking each other (with the exception of Iori's "Yahoo"). That certainly didn't help them, quite the opposite. If HeartSeed is really entertained by them attacking each other, he must be quite malevolent.
I think he is a neutral observer, an alien sociologist who is studying human behaviour. He claimed that the unleashing of desires - like the body swapping in the first arc - is completely random. He only directly intervened once, to test his subjects.
I don't think that he would harm his "lab rats" but I also don't think that he is willingly helping them. It just happened that some of his research coincidentally helped the quintet of friends.
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Old 2012-08-29, 04:41   Link #1704
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
It's interesting to see Tari Tari doing very well in pre-orders (it looks as if it might clear 10K) while KC is struggling. The shows are very different despite their superficial similarities, and I like them both about equally - but TT obviously matches up with the profile of shows that appeal to otaku a lot better than KC does.
This is rather weird indeed.

However, based on what I read from animemania there's a new "marketing scheme" of adding seiyuu concerts or whatnot to the first volume BD which a few shows this season are doing, but Kokoro Connect isn't one of them. Maybe that's one of the reasons why?

Otherwise, I'm not too sure. I kinda disagree with your notion of "otaku appeal" as both shows have them about equally in my eyes. Though Tari Tari does have the otaku appeal in terms of "character designs" and the fact it has "cute girls doing cute things", Kokoro Connect does have some otaku-ish comedy if you ask me. Toilet/Locker humour in sex jokes is what I'm referring to as well as some noticeable amounts of slapstick.

Not saying either show is bad though (Kokoro Connect in this current arc has significantly improved after what I thought was a mediocre start and terrible finish andI'm only one of the few people who thought episode 5 was bad) and Tari Tari has been pretty consistent from start to where it is now.

Really though, I think it's the missed opportunity of these "VA concert tickets" that KC missed that other shows are attaching. Failed opportunity and failed luck.

Horizon is still kicking every other series' ass though and expect SAO to skyrocket too (it's actually behind Tari Tari in stalker points at this current point ...) since main arc has finally started.
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Old 2012-08-29, 05:16   Link #1705
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:59   Link #1706
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Sankaku Complex has translated the latest rankings of anime characters from somewhere...

An Inaban comes in third behind Asuna from SAO and Watashi from Jinrui... err... Humanity has Declined. No doubt the last placing of Inaban and (for me) the lack of Iori will make many on this forum wonder if humanity (or at least otaku) has in fact, declined!

WARNING: WHILE THIS PAGE CONTAINS NO ADULT CONTENT, SANKAKU COMPLEX CONTAINS LINKS (SOME WITH THUMBNAILS IMAGES) TO SERIOUSLY NSFW MATERIAL- LIKE LINKS TO SITES SELLING HENTAI AND PAGES WITH MATURE IMAGES. DO NOT CLICK LINK TO AT WORK, JUST TO BE SAFE

Link here: http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2012/0...f-summer-2012/
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:25   Link #1707
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Though Tari Tari does have the otaku appeal in terms of "character designs"...
Kokoro Connect has very K-On-ish moe designs. I'd say that counts as otaku appeal.
I do find it weird that Tari Tari is doing so well and KC so bad. I mean, sure Tari Tari does the "cute girls doing cute things", but I personally find that the characters in KC match anime archetypes more, even if they're well done.
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:50   Link #1708
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ehehe, except for the first girl, that I don't know, that ranking corresponds to my personal one from Asuna to Hanbei. Where Asuna, Sawa and Inaba share the top of my list.
Satsuki from Koichoco is missing, though.

About pre-orders probably the supernatural element + drama elements didn't help. If I read the right list the difference between Tari and KC is really significant anyways, nearly an order of magnitude.
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Old 2012-08-29, 10:20   Link #1709
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For me only Sawa caught my eye this season. I can see some appeal in Inaba, but I personally like all KC characters equally.
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Old 2012-08-29, 12:11   Link #1710
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Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
Kokoro Connect has very K-On-ish moe designs. I'd say that counts as otaku appeal.
I do find it weird that Tari Tari is doing so well and KC so bad. I mean, sure Tari Tari does the "cute girls doing cute things", but I personally find that the characters in KC match anime archetypes more, even if they're well done.
I would argue that Tari Tari much more than KC is a "comfortable" anime for otaku. KC is unapologetically dramatic, and not in that "cute girl as messiah" way that shows like Madoka are. Kokoro is full of moral ambiguity and difficult situations, and offers very little in the way of fanservice. It's also not very funny and frankly, mediocre visually compared to Tari Tari (and certainly compared to Hyouka).

I like TT quite a bit, but it's not a show that requires you to work very hard to enjoy it. It's fun, it's whimsical, it's eye candy. Hyouka can get quite deep, but if you want to just gawk at the pretty and obsess over Chitanda, you can. I don't think KC offers very much that can be enjoyed at the surface level, and the number of shows like that which succeed commercially is relatively low.
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Old 2012-08-29, 15:49   Link #1711
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I would argue that Tari Tari much more than KC is a "comfortable" anime for otaku. KC is unapologetically dramatic, and not in that "cute girl as messiah" way that shows like Madoka are. Kokoro is full of moral ambiguity and difficult situations, and offers very little in the way of fanservice. It's also not very funny and frankly, mediocre visually compared to Tari Tari (and certainly compared to Hyouka).

I like TT quite a bit, but it's not a show that requires you to work very hard to enjoy it. It's fun, it's whimsical, it's eye candy. Hyouka can get quite deep, but if you want to just gawk at the pretty and obsess over Chitanda, you can. I don't think KC offers very much that can be enjoyed at the surface level, and the number of shows like that which succeed commercially is relatively low.
Personally, I'd sooner show Tari Tari to someone who isn't an otaku than I would Kokoro Connect. KC subverts certain anime archetypes (and unfortunately forces itself to follow a certain one from visual novels) and has some fanservice along with a harem-ish feel, while Tari Tari is simply clean lighthearted drama and has characters that fit into that. And despite the moe designs, TT characters don't perform any unnecessarily "kawaii" actions, so I wouldn't label it as one of those shows that use moe with the clear intention of appealing to the otaku.
I see the two shows as pretty similar, at least for now. They both have an air of light drama (a bit lacking in this KC arc, but sure to come back) and nicely switch between serious and light-hearted situations.
While it is unfortunately true that shows with depth don't fare well commercially, I don't find KC to be so deep that it can't be enjoyed at a superficial level. The supernatural and philosophical elements are quite scarce and the show is, in fact, mostly about romance and friendship, which isn't executed in a way much different from other romantic anime.
Unlike TT, which executed what it had to excellently, I feel there's a lot of wasted potential in KC, which is why despite the fact that I personally enjoy KC more, I also have more complaints about it. You could say my expectations were too high, but I was expecting a much more wittier combination of supernatural gimmicks and character development/relationships. Instead the gimmicks seem more like they're there to sell the characters, rather than work with them to make a unique story. The story (by which I mostly mean themes, characters' problems and character relationships) could've been so much more complex had the story refused to adhere to romcom/harem storytelling.
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Old 2012-08-29, 15:54   Link #1712
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Well, any time you're trying to determine the why of sales numbers, you've got no choice but to speculate. I see it a little differently in the case of these two shows, but who can prove anything? All I can say is the numbers are what they are.

As it relates to someone who isn't an anime fan at all, my instinct is that they'd have an easier time relating to KC than TT. To be honest to someone not familiar with anime I think the appeal of Tari Tari might be somewhat elusive - in fact I think most would find it boring. I think the themes in KC are a little more like what you'd see in, say, mainstream movies of written fiction.
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Old 2012-08-29, 16:16   Link #1713
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Well, any time you're trying to determine the why of sales numbers, you've got no choice but to speculate. I see it a little differently in the case of these two shows, but who can prove anything? All I can say is the numbers are what they are.

As it relates to someone who isn't an anime fan at all, my instinct is that they'd have an easier time relating to KC than TT. To be honest to someone not familiar with anime I think the appeal of Tari Tari might be somewhat elusive - in fact I think most would find it boring. I think the themes in KC are a little more like what you'd see in, say, mainstream movies of written fiction.
Indeed, it's all speculation. If people could 100% predict the audience's reaction, we would have one type of movies for eternity.

There are many teen shows where not much happens aside from characters doing their own thing.
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Old 2012-08-29, 17:19   Link #1714
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
It's not like Taichi wanted to hurt Iori. He grabbed his bag and accidentally pushed Iori away. It was just an accident.
No, not at all. He clearly *wanted* to shove Iori away harshly. Without the unleashing, he possibly wouldn't have done it, but still... we're getting to see ever more of Taichi's nasty side, which is lingering under the surface like a hungry shark smelling blood.
It was was hiding there all the time already, it's just now because of the unleashing that we're getting a look at it.

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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Agreed. She definitely gained a lot of points in my book.
Inaba is still my favourite but she is not helping anyone in this situation.
I think Inaba is just too deeply hurt to do anything for now. If the outburst had come from anyone else, she probably could've handled it, but from Taichi...

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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
I think he is a neutral observer, an alien sociologist who is studying human behaviour. He claimed that the unleashing of desires - like the body swapping in the first arc - is completely random. He only directly intervened once, to test his subjects.
I don't think that he would harm his "lab rats" but I also don't think that he is willingly helping them. It just happened that some of his research coincidentally helped the quintet of friends.
The random bit could perhaps still be applied to the first arc, but definitely not here. All Kizu unleashings give off the strong appearance that they were intentionally done, possibly even purposefully planned. There's nothing random about them.

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Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119 View Post
Sankaku Complex has translated the latest rankings of anime characters from somewhere...

An Inaban comes in third

Link here: http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2012/0...f-summer-2012/
Inaban as third is already a pretty good result
Very odd to find "Watashi" from Jinrui on the first place... and I wouldn't have expected Asuna to be *that* popular.
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Old 2012-08-29, 17:48   Link #1715
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Well, any time you're trying to determine the why of sales numbers, you've got no choice but to speculate. I see it a little differently in the case of these two shows, but who can prove anything? All I can say is the numbers are what they are.
I think the data tends to support the notion that shows that tend towards melodrama tend not to sell as well in Japan as shows that are a bit more light-hearted and fun (unless, conversely, they can be described as "epic" or are seen as major anime "events", like say a Madoka or maybe even Bakemonogatari).

Speaking strictly for myself, for budget reasons I am trying to limit myself to only two TV shows to buy this season. Although I enjoy this show, I actually find it a bit stressful and "tense", so as much as I like the first-time experience, I'm not sure I'll want to re-watch it that much. I chose to collect Tari Tari instead because it's a bit more easy-going, I've already collected the other P.A.Works shows in that "series", and I think those BDs have nicer packaging/extras. Not necessarily the greatest reasons, but it was enough to put it over the edge. (My second show, for the record, is SAO.)

I'm not sure how much a similar thought process goes through the mind of collectors in Japan, but I imagine it probably does to some degree. I think it's not really a battle over whether a show is "good", it's about whether a show is so good you want to pay ~$500 to own the Collector's Edition and keep it on your shelf. The other option for people in Japan is, of course, just to buy the novels and other related merchandise, which would be way cheaper. If they really want to rewatch the anime, a lot of them could probably rent it too, which is an option we don't really have, exactly.


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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
As it relates to someone who isn't an anime fan at all, my instinct is that they'd have an easier time relating to KC than TT. [...] I think the themes in KC are a little more like what you'd see in, say, mainstream movies of written fiction.
Sometimes I honestly think that works against anime in some ways. The type of people who enjoy this sort of fiction (serious emotional melodrama) aren't always the most likely to be willing to give anime a chance, as there are lots of other more mainstream options at their disposal. People who gravitate towards anime tend to be looking for it to provide a sort of experience that you don't usually get in mainstream entertainment.

One thing I would point out is that there isn't really anything about this production that says "it could only be anime". It's scripted, filmed, and directed exactly like a live-action TV drama that just happens to be animated. (And I assume they chose anime as a medium just because it's based on a light novel series.) The characters are all basically realistic, and a lot of it is just in the acting and staging. And I wouldn't say the animation production values are so high that you could really consider it a showpiece of animation either (although I do think it looks pretty good most of the time). So it's kind of in this odd middle-ground. If I think of the sort of anime that have traditionally sold well, I think most of them had some distinctly "anime" characteristic (something that couldn't have been conveyed as well or as easily in live action), and I'm not sure if this show has that.

Again, none of that really disproves your speculation that this show may be more suited to showing to non-fans (because the main characters are all fundamentally human and presented with realistic, human problems despite the out-of-this-world premise). But I'm not sure there is a big need among non-anime fans for this sort of content, because it already exists in other media that are probably more familiar and comfortable to them. If the objective is just to show "yes, anime can do this genre too!", then it's good to have to complete the tapestry. But it's pretty clear to me why we don't see a glut of this sort of show -- despite being ostensibly less esoteric and distancing for outsiders, it's also more niche among anime fans (who aren't generally coming to anime looking for it to mimic mainstream media/real life).
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Old 2012-08-29, 17:52   Link #1716
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On the Kokoro Connect sales discussion - I think I'm on the same page with Guardian Enzo there. Yes, I think that KC isn't exactly a "comfortable" anime for many otaku. There's a lot to like about KC, but almost all of it is what I would call "intellectual appeal". There's less here to simply "smile at". There's fewer "feel good" moments, in other words.

Tari Tari, and even Hyouka in its own way, has plenty of "feel good" moments.

I almost think that Kokoro Connect would have benefited, commercially at least, from having a couple pure slice of life episodes before the Heartseed-imposed drama took over. Either that, or have such episodes as lowkey breaks between arcs.


And even though I've defended Taichi a lot on this thread, and think that at least a couple fellow AS members here are too hard on him, I also think that he can be a hard male lead to get behind. As anime male leads go, I don't think he's that easy to relate to - His character traits are amplified beyond the point where he could function well as a "stand-in" character (i.e. a character that the viewer lives vicariously through). In other words, Taichi is more distinctive than your average harem anime male lead.

At the same time, he also lacks a certain charisma or gravitas (consider Okabe in Steins;Gate or Kotetsu in Tiger and Bunny). Taichi is kind of in this no man's land where he's too distinctive to be an effective "stand-in" character, but he's not distinctive enough (at least not in an easily likeable way) for many viewers to get behind him just because he's "cool", or "charismatic".
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Old 2012-08-29, 18:41   Link #1717
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Well, characterwise Tari Tari uses its time more effectively, I feel. In Kokoro Connect, the cast merely interacts amongs themselves most of the time, and we get just enough snippets to understand where they come from (Taichi's sister, Inori's mum, etc.). In Tari Tari, the family are characters that are interesting in their own right, and so each of the main cast bring a setting to the group. In Kokoro Connect they don't really do this: their home lives are de-emphasised and generic, excuses for their conditions. That makes their problems seem sort of abstract at times; you can't get behind them, because all you really see is the club. There are strong moments, but you feel something is lacking. Imagine, for example, if they had built up Taichi's relationship with his sister. Then that one line might not have come out of nowhere, and it wouldn't sound like a philosophical platitude, but you'd have seen it lived at the place of origin.

I feel Kokoro Connect is a bit weak at translating the issues into life, because of reduced-universe-syndrome. They're going for subtle, but they're not showing us me enough outside of the core group for it to work all the time. (It works very well when it does, but it becomes dull when it doesn't.)
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Old 2012-08-29, 18:48   Link #1718
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And even though I've defended Taichi a lot on this thread, and think that at least a couple fellow AS members here are too hard on him, I also think that he can be a hard male lead to get behind. As anime male leads go, I don't think he's that easy to relate to - His character traits are amplified beyond the point where he could function well as a "stand-in" character (i.e. a character that the viewer lives vicariously through). In other words, Taichi is more distinctive than your average harem anime male lead.

At the same time, he also lacks a certain charisma or gravitas (consider Okabe in Steins;Gate or Kotetsu in Tiger and Bunny). Taichi is kind of in this no man's land where he's too distinctive to be an effective "stand-in" character, but he's not distinctive enough (at least not in an easily likeable way) for many viewers to get behind him just because he's "cool", or "charismatic".
I think this is a direct function of the way he's been written. He can't function as a Kirito-style avatar because Taichi's psychological underpinnings have a direct impact on everything that happens. But he doesn't come alive as a character like Kotetsu or Okabe (or Taichi from Chihayafuru, or Mutta, or any of the Tsuritama leads, etc.) because we've been given basically no glimpses into what makes him tick. As it stands he's just sort of annoying - all of the characters in this show do irritating or illogical things, but with the girls we know why they do them. With Taichi we don't, and his actions are more perplexing than they should be as a result.
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Old 2012-08-29, 19:01   Link #1719
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I think this is a direct function of the way he's been written. He can't function as a Kirito-style avatar because Taichi's psychological underpinnings have a direct impact on everything that happens. But he doesn't come alive as a character like Kotetsu or Okabe (or Taichi from Chihayafuru, or Mutta, or any of the Tsuritama leads, etc.) because we've been given basically no glimpses into what makes him tick. As it stands he's just sort of annoying - all of the characters in this show do irritating or illogical things, but with the girls we know why they do them. With Taichi we don't, and his actions are more perplexing than they should be as a result.
Personally, I think this is by design, and I suspect we will come to see why as the show goes on. I think we are supposed to be led along by the "protagonist stereotype" in the early acts, as he plays his role to unfold the story in its early stages. But I suspect we will only be increasingly frustrated with him as the show goes on. If anything, I am expecting Aoki to rise in prominence (or at least popularity) as Taichi continues his descent. And then, as he descends to the bottom, then I think we will start to understand what makes him tick (and how flawed it is) so that he can be built back up again. I guess it's a sort of literal deconstruction of the stereotypical protagonist (rather than ostensibly starting with nothing and gaining everything, he starts will appearing to have it all together but we'll discover eventually that he may be the most messed-up of all). So, to Triple_R's point, I think people who are trying to live vicariously through Taichi will be disappointed; instead I think we're better off being a third-party observer and just seeing what he and the rest of the characters do. It appears that there are many more experiments to come.
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Old 2012-08-29, 19:35   Link #1720
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Personally what disappoints me about Taichi (and most of the other characters) is that they feel like they're being controlled by the story. As symbols, I can see how they work. But as actual people, I don't give a crap. That in itself isn't an inherently bad thing (Madoka Magica), but the story doesn't exactly go far enough for me to care too much about it. Most of these desires are tame compared to actual teenagers (including the ones in Japan). And even though we never got a real focus on Taichi compared to the girls, his desires are pretty lame compared to them. Sleep? Really?

And honestly, I don't know how I'd feel about light-hearted moments in this anime. I have never liked a single time it tried to be light-hearted. Episode 1 was cringe-worthy in that regard. If that's what sells though, I guess Kokoro Connect should have had more, because I'm not exactly a huge fan of how we're in the "not talking to each other" stage.
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