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Old 2013-04-29, 10:58   Link #4441
ImperialFlameGod8190
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its kinda ironic how without backstory a lot of our favorite characters get a totally different view. Ignore naruto in that because there are more twists and turns in that manga then you find in a pretzel factory. But seriously give characters time to be developed then pass judgement
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Old 2013-04-29, 18:08   Link #4442
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post

3) Claire Rouge makes the male lead seem MASOCHISTIC AND PATHETIC.

Claire treats the male lead like shit, calls him a slave, and physically abuses him on a regular basis for no good reason. Since the male lead has NO COMPELLING REASON TO STAY BY HER SIDE, the fact that he choses to do so makes him seem MASOCHISTIC AND PATHETIC. ("MASOCHISTIC" is NOT a good trait for male leads.)

I CRINGE every time the I read a line like:

"It's nothing, Greyworth always uses me. On top of that, Claire gives me the slave treatment. Even if such people increase by one or two, it makes no difference."
The MC is hardly masochistic and dishes it right back to Claire in the verbal warfare department. The point is he really doesn't care as you have read he himself only saw himself as a tool for a long part of his life and the reason he stays with her is by his choice not realy hers.

Quote:
4) Claire Rouge is a HORRIBLY FLAWED Shana clone (see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShanaClone)

The result is Claire, THE WORST FEMALE LEAD EVER CREATED.
Claire is not a Shana clone, nor is she trying to be. Shana just happens to pack in some of the most common Anime tropes and is a poor Lina clone.


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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
More nonsense.

Firstly, Claire and Rinslet, even if they don't want to admit it, are best friends,so she certainly has a reason to trust her.

Secondly, the whole massaging thing is a typical anime trope, along with drinking milk, etc. Considering Claire's complex about her size (another typical anime trope), it's not weird that she believed it, especially considering that was a comedy scene.
You missed, Third Rinslet belives this is true. Rinslet isn't trying to scam Claire beyond getting her to let her on the team by what she thinks is a fair trade.
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Old 2013-04-29, 18:41   Link #4443
shadow1296
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sometimes I don't see where all this hate for Claire comes from, when you get right down she not that bad of a character, granted she is a princes-tsundere( a princes tsundere is a tsundere who's looks and attitude reminded one of Louis from zero no tsukaima) which is not a great character to begin with, but she improves overtime and you understand why she's like that and is a well developed character (granted all the characters have good development but still), honestly I think this hate for Claire is definitely way mare than it should actually be
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Old 2013-04-29, 19:25   Link #4444
Ruki0089
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yare yare yare
Cedec0, the another claire`s hater,huh
i do understand about you feel
me too, i hate her but i`m just dislike her personality since she treat Kamito like slave
since I hate women that treat someone like crap
but if Kamito "little" pervert... maybe she`s the who one gonna treated like slave
for example, Kamito whipping her or smack her butt
even Claire dream about being slave of Kamito

well, thats just my delusion so dont take it seriously
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Old 2013-04-29, 19:58   Link #4445
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruki0089 View Post
yare yare yare
Cedec0, the another claire`s hater,huh
i do understand about you feel
me too, i hate her but i`m just dislike her personality since she treat Kamito like slave
since I hate women that treat someone like crap
but if Kamito "little" pervert... maybe she`s the who one gonna treated like slave
for example, Kamito whipping her or smack her butt
even Claire dream about being slave of Kamito

well, thats just my delusion so dont take it seriously
Really when you get down to it the whole slave thing only amounts to "you're on my team when there is a fight and you have to hang out with me." She doesn't make him do anymore then that and Kamito is more then happy to do that (most of the time) without the pretext. The cooking he chose to do on his own because it was that or eat Claire's burnt or canned food. as for the whipping and roasting it is always done in a slapstick way where he never takes any "real" damage and unlike many other tsundere victims she's hard pressed to actually hit him even if he isn't going full out. You'll also notice that Claire and Rinslet act almost the same way toward each other to the point that the two are known to have wrecked rooms at school.
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Old 2013-04-30, 03:26   Link #4446
cedec0
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You should probably stop reading now then. Having read all the volumes, I don't know where this nonsense about Claire getting a lesser role comes from. True, there are volumes that she is less focused on, because other characters take the spotlight, but it isn't as if her role got smaller. The main plot of the series up to now is strongly connected to Claire, and volumes 9 and 10 are quite Claire centric.
I will continue reading because I have checked the popularity polls. Claire was in SIXTH place as of volume nine. (Sixth place is not the main female lead.)


Quote:
She didn't set out to anger Est, and it's not as if she had no hope of contracting her. Considering Claire's skill as an elementalist, if t wasn't for Est's own issues, it might have worked.
Come on. You know Claire's personally: there is no way she was leaving without "My sealed spirit". Even if Est had the patience of a saint, it wouldn't have mattered. Claire would have tried contracting her again and again and again... Each time she failed she would get more irritated, and start hurling insults ("why aren't you contracting me, you stupid spirit") which would get worse and worse... (Until finally the sealed spirit snaps.)

Or do you think Claire would give up and go home empty-handed instead of going too far and angering the sealed spirit?


Quote:
Again, it's not like she had no hope, since Greyworth and Sjora Kahn managed it. You are right that it was stupid to charge at it like that. she herself admits it.
In volume one it says:

"A demon spirit— that was something with a spirit make-up that greatly differed from humans, and thus, that was a grotesque spirit that can never be tamed by elementalists."

That sounds like "no hope" to me.


Quote:
I'm starting to think you're a troll. Claire didn't let Scarlet get frenzied, she thought Scarlet was dead at that point. Add to that, she settled the situation in quite a cool way. That scene is why I started liking Claire actually.
Sorry if I was being upclear. What I meant to say was that Claire made two stupid mistakes:

1) Trying to enter a blade dance without her contract spirit ("To perform blade dance without the contract spirit, that kind of action amounts to nothing but suicide.")
2) Accepted a spirit from a suspicious person. ("Had it been the usual Claire, surely she would not hesitate to brush that hand away.")

The result was Claire being attacked by her own spirit. (if she hadn't entered the blade dance without a spirit and then accepted a suspicious spirit, this wouldn't have happened.)


Quote:
Nonsense. Claire's whole character arc is her learning from her mistakes and not repeating them.
... ... I am assuming this is something I haven't read yet, unless you can point me to something in volume one that shows Claire "learning from her mistakes".


Quote:
nonsense. Just because other people have tried and failed doesn't mean that she will. If people thought like that, no one would do anything. Claire's talent, skill and determination are above that of the average Academy student, and she is quite desperate.
1) There was no basis for thinking it could work

"Since the founding of the academy, not a single princess maiden has successfully formed a contract with it" --Claire

2) It was not the best alternative to get a "strong spirit"

Trying to get a militarized spirit = virtually no risk with high odds of success (when participating in blade dance with Scarlett)
Trying to get a sealed spirit = suicidal with virtually no odds of success.

So why didn't Claire try to get a militarized spirit?


Quote:
Again, it's not like it had a 0% percent chance of working. As Claire herself said, it was stupid though.
Maybe the author contradicts himself later, but as of volume 1: "that was a grotesque spirit that can never be tamed by elementalists."

0% percent chance of working


Quote:
Perhaps you should reread. Claire did have a spirit with her, the one Restia gave her. She wasn't using it at first, probably out of pride and affection for Scarlet, which is still kind of stupid, but not s stupid as what you said.
Claire made the decision to perform blade dance without her contracted spirit, and, ACCORDING TO THE AUTHOR, THIS WAS SUICIDAL AND RETARDED:

"However, without her contract spirit, to enter a blade dance is—" Kamito stopped in mid-sentence and swallow the remaining words.

Impossible— but he was not sure.

To perform blade dance without the contract spirit, that kind of action amounts to nothing but suicide.

Without the power of spirits, there was absolutely no way to beat other elementalists. Such a no-brainer simple truth.



Quote:
Firstly, Claire and Rinslet, even if they don't want to admit it, are best friends,so she certainly has a reason to trust her.
Claire and Rinslet come accross as rivals, not best friends as of volume 1, and Rinslet seems like someone who would love to make fool of Claire.


Quote:
Claire treating Kamito like that is typical romcom tsundere fare. Due to her traumatic past, she's too insecure and afraid to just ask Kamito to be her partner/friend, in case he rejects her.
Treating someone as a slave (random violence, constant insults, etc), instead of a friend, because it is less embarrassing... ("normal" tsundere fare doesn't involve slavery)


Quote:
If you avoid your double standard and look at all Kamito's relationships with girls in the series, you'd see he has no compelling reason to be around any of them, except Restia. Think a little about that.
I have only read volume 1 (reading volume 2), and Kamito hasn't had much of a relationship with anyone else. (Besides Restia, doesn't he also have a good reason to be around Est, considering she is his spirit?)


Quote:
As for why he hangs around her, it's because he likes her and can't leave her alone. Perhaps not a smart or rational reason, but then interpersonal relations, especially the romantic kind, aren't all about rationality.
I know exactly why he stays with her. I call this "The most pathetic girl wins" and I HATE it in love comedies beyond anything else. Basically, one girl has horrible, disfunctional flaws as a human being, and, because of this, the male lead literally "can't leave them alone" or they will self-destruct.


if by any chance, she was to release a sealed spirit and fail to control it, what would happen?

Although she was just a girl he met by chance, Kamito couldn't leave her alone.
(he is not going with her because of her charming personallity or looks... but because of her suicidal actions...)


THINK ABOUT HOW PERVERSE THIS IS! Instead of choosing "the best girl" (based on positive characteristics), the male lead is essentially choosing "the most pathetic girl" (based on which girl is the most dysfunctional and needs him most).

Sigh... Whatever...


Quote:
As for Claire being violent, perhaps you haven't heard of it, but that's called slapstick comedy.
If the comedy interfears with the real story (injuries from Claire hurting Kamito's performance during team battles), then it isn't innocent slapstick comedy anymore.

----------

That is all for now.

Last edited by cedec0; 2013-04-30 at 03:58.
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Old 2013-04-30, 04:11   Link #4447
Yami no Ou
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^ I believe this guy just loves to criticize Claire according to what he have read so far,I think you should read all the available volumes first before judging her cause you still don't know why she became like that she have her own reasons and experiences in the past as to why she became her current self but I'm not saying that you would love her after that,as for Rinslet Claire relationship they are BEST OF FRIENDS you would come to understand that once you finish reading
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Old 2013-04-30, 04:40   Link #4448
ImperialFlameGod8190
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guys come on lets let him have his opinion and not bash him for it so be patient and lets see what he thinks later.
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Old 2013-04-30, 04:47   Link #4449
Yami no Ou
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Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
guys come on lets let him have his opinion and not bash him for it so be patient and lets see what he thinks later.
that's for the best I guess,hope he realizes something after finishing 10 volumes
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Old 2013-04-30, 06:55   Link #4450
Trung-t-rung
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@Codec: I think you need to read more in order to fully understand a character.
Personally, I think Claire is still a better tsundere-type heroine than others.

First, even though she called Kamito a slave doesn't mean she actually treat him like a slave unlike a certain useless pink hair void mage.
IIRC, he only cooks for her by his own free will and she doesn't force him to treat her like royalty, again, unlike a certain useless pink hair void mage I've mentioned.

Second, she is strong elementalist, she is the top of the class and during the Blade Dance she is the strategist of the group. She is not weak , it's just that other contractors are way too OP for her.

Quote:
Retarded_Decision: In order "to get a strong spirit", she tries to make a contract with a sealed spirit, somehow thinking she will succeed where dozens of stronger elementalists have failed.
Result: DEATH (but is saved by male lead)

Retarded_Decision: In order "to get a strong spirit", she tries to make a contract with a demon spirit, somehow thinking she will succeed where ALL OTHERS HAVE FAILED.
Result: DEATH (but is saved by male lead)

Retarded_Decision: In order "to get a strong spirit", she enters a blade dance without a spirit (simply retarded).
Result: DEATH (but is saved by male lead)

This is "too-stupid to live" level intelligence, and it just isn't fun to read about a character that:

1) Makes lethal mistakes again and again.
2) Jumps to the wrong conclusions on a regular basis
3) Lets herself be fooled by characters she has no reason to trust (Rinslet tells Claire that: "To enlarge her breasts, it was best to get a gentleman she likes to rub them." and she believes this!)
4) Etc...

RETARDS DON'T MAKE GOOD MAIN CHARACTERS!
Oh, come on, she is desperate, her sister is the country's number one enemy. Her parents are in jail. She has no land nor title. The only chance for her to fix the situation is to participate in the Blade Dance.
Just put yourself in that situation and tell me, will you do the same thing she did? Risk everything, even your own life, for a chance to save your parents, your family's honor, your sister? Or will you just sit back in a corner like a coward ?
You have to admit, this girl got guts.

Quote:
3) Claire Rouge makes the male lead seem MASOCHISTIC AND PATHETIC.
Keep reading my friend, you will see the truth.
Spoiler for Don't open until youred at least 3 vols.:


Quote:
STRONG_NEGATIVE: Petite, undeveloped body JUSTIFICATION: None, she simply fails as a woman
No, she is pretty. Even the main guy say so.
Spoiler for From vol 1:


Quote:
STRONG_NEGATIVE: Sub-human Treatment of male lead JUSTIFICATION: None, she is just a bitch
She only whips him when he flirt with other girl, well others in his harem even threatens to chop and slash him.
I think she treat him more like a subordinate than a slave.

To sum it up, Claire is not a great female lead but she is still likable and still better than some tsundere whose name I don't want to mention here.

If you don't like her, that's your problem. I suggest you read a few more volumes to understand her better. If you still don't, just like another female character for god damn's sake. This is a harem novel.
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Old 2013-04-30, 07:43   Link #4451
Libros
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Originally Posted by Trung-t-rung View Post


To sum it up, Claire is not a great female lead but she is still likable and still better than some tsundere whose name I don't want to mention here.

If you don't like her, that's your problem. I suggest you read a few more volumes to understand her better. If you still don't, just like another female character for god damn's sake. This is a harem novel.
I completely agree with everything you said besides the bold.
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Old 2013-04-30, 08:08   Link #4452
Kleeyook
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For tsundere's supporters (not really, characters like Claire and Louise are more of ungrateful bitches than traditional tsundere), if somehow Kamito got his limbs cut or really burnt into cinder for some stupid reasons by those unreasonable girls, are you gonna say it's totally his own fault he couldn't dodge it?

Well, I don't really take LN seriously so I should just back off from this worthless discussion against you guys, but rethink it a bit about what would happen in real life if girls act like this, and you hurt enough to become handicapped your whole life.
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Old 2013-04-30, 09:09   Link #4453
NeutralZero
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The violence for some reason may have been for crude humor purposes...
Though for some reason, most Harem series nowadays will always have a violent tsundere with them and as far as we've seen some harem series... some of them are Main Heroine...
Zero, Toradora, Love Hina, Negi, Ranma, IS, Oreimo etc...
Indeed in real life they should be imprisoned but in fiction they seems to have a charm that won't let them disappear...
Sad but true...
Even if Clair/VT have all reasons in the world for how she became like that... their violence can never be justified...
She's a great chara, she's ok, she's bad, she's the worst... it will always varies to each individual's PoV... so why don't why not stop the discussion about her and move to a different topic...
Any news or info about the next volume?
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Old 2013-04-30, 09:32   Link #4454
dragon1412
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Well, i really didn't agree with either sides cause just like most people here have post, Claire have a decent amount of development in the later volumes, however , like kleeyook said and Zero said, no matter how good her development are or how tragic her past is, it didn't justified her violences, throwing flame at others to cover embrassment is downright crazy and it possible to kill someone, Basically what you guys saying is no diffirent from " while she's throwing flame and attck capable of killing someone, she's got a terrible past and she's slowy changing so it can be forgiven" sorry guys buy no worlds work that way, no matter how you guys said it, setting emotion and feelings aside and see only actions, Kamito always stop at word teasing and Claire always threw flame that can cause serious damage, this is a fact.
As Zero said this have happen a lot of times before and it is ideal to stop it here.
P.S : there are no schedule yet, it is also the first time the author break the release cycle.
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Old 2013-04-30, 09:37   Link #4455
NeutralZero
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hoho...
thanks for the info...
but just many volumes were release in a year by the author?
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Old 2013-04-30, 10:37   Link #4456
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
Well, i really didn't agree with either sides cause just like most people here have post, Claire have a decent amount of development in the later volumes, however , like kleeyook said and Zero said, no matter how good her development are or how tragic her past is, it didn't justified her violences, throwing flame at others to cover embrassment is downright crazy and it possible to kill someone, Basically what you guys saying is no diffirent from " while she's throwing flame and attck capable of killing someone, she's got a terrible past and she's slowy changing so it can be forgiven" sorry guys buy no worlds work that way, no matter how you guys said it, setting emotion and feelings aside and see only actions, Kamito always stop at word teasing and Claire always threw flame that can cause serious damage, this is a fact.
As Zero said this have happen a lot of times before and it is ideal to stop it here.
P.S : there are no schedule yet, it is also the first time the author break the release cycle.
if I was kamito, a "retired" assassin of sorts, I would have "accidentally" killed Claire in self defense if she was abusing me. (Nanaya mode)
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Old 2013-04-30, 10:37   Link #4457
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Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
hoho...
thanks for the info...
but just many volumes were release in a year by the author?
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/in...eries_Overview
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Old 2013-04-30, 10:54   Link #4458
Endscape
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
I will continue reading because I have checked the popularity polls. Claire was in SIXTH place as of volume nine. (Sixth place is not the main female lead.)
Keep deluding yourself then. Popularity polls have little to do with who the main female lead is.

Quote:
Come on. You know Claire's personally: there is no way she was leaving without "My sealed spirit". Even if Est had the patience of a saint, it wouldn't have mattered. Claire would have tried contracting her again and again and again... Each time she failed she would get more irritated, and start hurling insults ("why aren't you contracting me, you stupid spirit") which would get worse and worse... (Until finally the sealed spirit snaps.)

Or do you think Claire would give up and go home empty-handed instead of going too far and angering the sealed spirit?
While I am not sure if she would have given up after awhile, Claire as a trained elementalist knows better than to pointlessly anger a spirit.

Quote:
In volume one it says:

"A demon spirit— that was something with a spirit make-up that greatly differed from humans, and thus, that was a grotesque spirit that can never be tamed by elementalists."

That sounds like "no hope" to me.
This is clarified later.

Quote:
Sorry if I was being upclear. What I meant to say was that Claire made two stupid mistakes:

1) Trying to enter a blade dance without her contract spirit ("To perform blade dance without the contract spirit, that kind of action amounts to nothing but suicide.")
The person who said that was Kamito, who had no idea Claire got a spirit from Restia. As we the reader know, she thought she had a contracted spirit.

Quote:
2) Accepted a spirit from a suspicious person. ("Had it been the usual Claire, surely she would not hesitate to brush that hand away.")
Without Scarlet, she can't compete in the Blade Dance, find her sister, get her parents out of jail, or anything. It's not surprising she's desperate.

Quote:
... ... I am assuming this is something I haven't read yet, unless you can point me to something in volume one that shows Claire "learning from her mistakes".
You need to reread Volume 1 then. When Scarlet went into a frenzy because of the frenzy spirit, Claire burned the seal of her hand to get rid of it.

Quote:
1) There was no basis for thinking it could work

"Since the founding of the academy, not a single princess maiden has successfully formed a contract with it" --Claire
Again, what is your point? Just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it's impossible/ Claire is certainly better than the average elementalist, so she has a better chance than most.

Quote:
2) It was not the best alternative to get a "strong spirit"

Trying to get a militarized spirit = virtually no risk with high odds of success (when participating in blade dance with Scarlett)
Trying to get a sealed spirit = suicidal with virtually no odds of success.

So why didn't Claire try to get a militarized spirit?
She was going to try and get Glaysa-Labolas as well, what Claire was doing was to try every single possible thing she could.

Quote:
Maybe the author contradicts himself later, but as of volume 1: "that was a grotesque spirit that can never be tamed by elementalists."

0% percent chance of working.
This is clarified later.

Quote:
Claire made the decision to perform blade dance without her contracted spirit, and, ACCORDING TO THE AUTHOR, THIS WAS SUICIDAL AND RETARDED:

"However, without her contract spirit, to enter a blade dance is—" Kamito stopped in mid-sentence and swallow the remaining words.

Impossible— but he was not sure.

To perform blade dance without the contract spirit, that kind of action amounts to nothing but suicide.

Without the power of spirits, there was absolutely no way to beat other elementalists. Such a no-brainer simple truth.
I repeat, the person who says this is Kamito, who saw Scarlet get seemingly destroyed and doesn't know Claire got another contracted spirit

Quote:
Claire and Rinslet come accross as rivals, not best friends as of volume 1, and Rinslet seems like someone who would love to make fool of Claire.
You need to reread Volume 1 then, it's quite obvious even there that they are friends.

Quote:
Treating someone as a slave (random violence, constant insults, etc), instead of a friend, because it is less embarrassing... ("normal" tsundere fare doesn't involve slavery)
You should read what people write, it's not about embarrassment, it's about fear. She's treats Kamito like that because in the event that he leaves, she won't be hurt by it.

Quote:
I have only read volume 1 (reading volume 2), and Kamito hasn't had much of a relationship with anyone else. (Besides Restia, doesn't he also have a good reason to be around Est, considering she is his spirit?)
This will be clarified later.

Quote:
I know exactly why he stays with her. I call this "The most pathetic girl wins" and I HATE it in love comedies beyond anything else. Basically, one girl has horrible, disfunctional flaws as a human being, and, because of this, the male lead literally "can't leave them alone" or they will self-destruct.

if by any chance, she was to release a sealed spirit and fail to control it, what would happen?

Although she was just a girl he met by chance, Kamito couldn't leave her alone.
(he is not going with her because of her charming personallity or looks... but because of her suicidal actions...)

THINK ABOUT HOW PERVERSE THIS IS! Instead of choosing "the best girl" (based on positive characteristics), the male lead is essentially choosing "the most pathetic girl" (based on which girl is the most dysfunctional and needs him most).

Sigh... Whatever...
You're missing the point. It's not because she's has a bad personality and will self destruct if he leaves her alone, it's because he sees something in her hat worth putting up with her flaws

Quote:
If the comedy interfears with the real story (injuries from Claire hurting Kamito's performance during team battles), then it isn't innocent slapstick comedy anymore.
This has never happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
For tsundere's supporters (not really, characters like Claire and Louise are more of ungrateful bitches than traditional tsundere), if somehow Kamito got his limbs cut or really burnt into cinder for some stupid reasons by those unreasonable girls, are you gonna say it's totally his own fault he couldn't dodge it?
I repeat, this is slapstick comedy. You wouldn't think that someone gets seriously hurt in say, one of the Three Stooges' skits, right? It's the same thing.

Quote:
Well, I don't really take LN seriously so I should just back off from this worthless discussion against you guys, but rethink it a bit about what would happen in real life if girls act like this, and you hurt enough to become handicapped your whole life.
If you're going to judge Claire by real life standards, what you should rethink is your double standards. If you think about all the girls by real life standards, Kamito would nothing to do with any of the girls, not even Est or Restia.
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Old 2013-04-30, 11:07   Link #4459
Fenrisulfr
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Virginia
@ dragon1412, your post reminded me of how much i hated ellis in vol1, i was ok with claire since i already encountered louise before but ellis, back then i couldnt see why ppl like her character, she freaking pulled out her sword & cut at kamito behind her just cause he "startled" her -_- seriously all those sword swings if is wasnt someone as skilled as kamito theyd she dead or horribly disfigured, i thought she was unredeemable back then, weird how im okay with the fireballs from claire though..lol, but yeah i get what you mean, violence like that cant be justified
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Old 2013-04-30, 11:24   Link #4460
Trung-t-rung
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Join Date: Apr 2013
I think you guys can stop this argument about tsundere, I mean this is a work of fiction. Anything can happen, it's different from Western fiction. A guy could be beat a moment and the next he is completely fine.
A guy in real life can never be that stupid and not noticing his harem's affection toward him.
A girl in real life would not stupid enough to harm her love interest with bullets(Aria), shinai(Houki), explosion spells(Louise), a burning fire whip( Claire), Weapon of mass destruction( Girls in IS),...All that violence is for the comedy.
If you guys couldn't understand this than you should quit reading Light novel.
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action, comedy, ecchi, fantasy, harem, light novel, mf bunko j, romance, shounen, supernatural

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