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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 120 Rating
Perfect 10 12 16.22%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 18 24.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 21.62%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 12.16%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 6.76%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 7 9.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.35%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.35%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 5 6.76%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-13, 16:16   Link #821
Shiek927
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I don't see how the month goes so slow for so people - for me, every month practically flies by; though I do remember when I was in high-school, it did feel that way for me -- once I got out, and became busier then ever and was doing more things at once, that changed.

Really, I guess that's the best thing I can say to people; just keep yourself occupied. I much prefer the monthly wait for numerous reasons (more time to speculate which is half the fun of Claymore, more time to focus on other things like other stories, more time for Yagi to perfect his work etc), and I personally wouldn't have it any other way.
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Old 2011-11-14, 19:59   Link #822
Claymore!
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Well for me this month is going quite slow.
The thread has slowed down a lot too.

I just can't wait for the next chapter to come out.
Maybe some interesting new topics might liven up the thread.
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Old 2011-11-14, 21:49   Link #823
BlackMagister
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Well just thinking to myself about "what if" scenarios/analyzing Miria's choice to try and actually fight in the War of the North instead of deserting.

Miria made the choice to fight in the North because she feared a purge from the Organization, but in reality Miria and company would have had a better chance of surviving a purge than the ABs. I'm not sure if Clare and Jean told Miria about Raphaela, but still Raphaela is not that bad compared to the ABs. Even if they had defeated all the ABs it would mean Isley would just sneeze and kill them. As it would turn out if Miria's group had deserted they wouldn't have had to face Raphaela anyways, but they didn't know that. Even without Raphaela they would still have to worry about Galatea tracking them down because Miria did not know about Galatea's faltering loyalty (expect for when she spared Clare). There is also the moral problem of Miria not wanting the ABs to rampage in the other lands even though if the ABs had destroyed the Organization it would be a good thing.

Anyways if Miria had deserted the fear of Raphaela and Galatea would turn out to be unfounded even though there was no way for Miria to know that. Even factoring in those two it would still be safer for the group overall to desert the fight in the North than go with the luck based pill plan. The biggest problem I see is convincing the rest of the group that the Organization is evil and they should desert because they still consider the Organization necessary. This might result in a split in the group with some following Miria and the rest trying to fight or retreating to the Organization. Either way if Miria had just wanted to save as many people as possible deserting would have been in my opinion the smarter choice.

Then again I guess Miria just overestimated the success of the pill based plan because Rigardo really ensured his kills.
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Old 2011-11-15, 05:41   Link #824
Fate_Archer
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Welcome back Fate_Archer

I feel like I recognize your user name, but not your avatar. Hmm
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Good to see you again Fate_Archer. Hope you will post some more in the future . I've always enjoyed reading what you've had to say (even though sometimes it meant reading super long posts ;P).
Thanks for the welcome guys.
Good to see you again Gooral, seems like you're one of the few oldschoolers that still post here frequently.

I think I saw Fenrir and even khryoleoz some pages back, hope everyone is doing well.


Was reading some pages back and saw Nixl's post about the merits and the possible overrating of The Witch's Maw arc (along with the Purgatory of Deepest Depths or Purgatory of Deepest Abyss arc, which I will simply call The Witch's Maw arc).

Would like to put some thoughts on this.

My opinion might be a bit biased as you might have realized because sweet Galatea had a major role in that arc, but I will try to convey why The Witch's Maw is one of my favorites and is generally considered one of the best rated arcs in the story.

First, lets start by the setting which is the namesake of the whole arc. The dungeon where most of the chapters take place is probably one of the darkest if not the darkest background we've seen in claymore to this day. It's the kind of place that used to embody the whole dark/gray mood and atmosphere that the series used to have.
As the thought of venturing in such a maze wasn't scary enough, knowing (or rather, not knowing) the perils that lurk within adds to the whole atmosphere.

That's one of the first points that would turn this arc so memorable to the minds of most claymore fans, I think (*). The place simply oozed darkness and that really added to the atmosphere and overall flavour.

--

Next, and needless to say, the arc introduced two very memorable claymore characters in Jean and Galatea (Galatea was in fact introduced at the end of the Slashers arc, but it was in The Witch's Maw where she had a more prominent role and a proper introduction scene). Galatea was introduced in great style and Jean was reborn thanks to Clare to become the most loyal comrade she would see in her journey.

I noticed in your post that you felt like the way they were interacting in essence to save one another fell too flat or was too convenient.

Well, I didn't feel that way, and to explain why I and possibly many others who were reading up till that arc probably didn't feel that way I would say it was because the story was still too dark and pessimistic at that point, even if things finished mostly well in this or the last arc. There was still the feeling that no one was safe and the fear that an important character might die as it already happened.
In the two arcs just before (Endless Gravestones and Fit for Battle), the treatment Yagi gave to Clare with Ophelia was so rough and gruesome that in effect it made the reader fear for Clare's life. It was an intended effect I believe, and I and I bet many others can say that it really did work. I wasn't familiar with the concept of "plot armor" at the time, but even if I were, it would still have a similar effect because the way the whole situation was portrayed was really tense. I never felt like the main character of a story was so close of dying or was indeed gonna die like I did in that scene.

With The Witch's Maw being the arc that comes right after, as a reader connected with the characters, what I really wanted was for something to end up well in that really dark world. And that was not a common occurence at that point in the story. At the start of the arc three claymores from Jean's group were screwed up already, with one dying with half her body blowed up in the city next to Clare (which is what pushes Clare to come for the rescue of the remaining comrades). Riful also said she had tortured and experimented on 30 claymores before. As I said, the story was still too pessimistic and as a reader you didn't want for the important characters to have a similar fate (Teresa's death was still quite fresh in the mind of the readers at that point too I think, which also adds to the whole fear of some precious characters dying).

That's one of the reasons why I think most people didn't feel convenient when Clare, Galatea and later Jean came to the rescue of one another and rightfully used their team work to reverse the situation, as a reader reading Claymore in that point in time, you wanted them to survive. A lot of blood was already spilled and several hopeless situations were forced into the characters in the story in just 8 or 9 volumes.
And after all, that's what team work is there for when we see them saving one another: to create a chance to succeed without anyone losing their lives.
I also generally felt that the acts and the cooperation that followed between Clare, Galatea and Jean were pretty fluid and straightforward considering the situation (just my opinion, anyway).

Of course, Riful just playing a role of observer in all that happened is first and foremost the reason they survived. But that too didn't feel too convenient because it was consistent with Riful's character, as she saw the whole situation as a rare entertainment and was quite enjoying seeing Clare, Galatea and Jean having a rough fight for their lives. She even took a liking on them by seeing their efforts.
In the end, under the difficult circumstance they where in, they took the little chance that they had and worked their way to survive by beating Duff. And that was no small achievement as it required a perfectly cohesive effort to pass through his skin.

--

Lastly is the plot relevance. We can't really say that nothing really happened there aside from "A saving B, and B saving C, and C saving A"; because in this arc we learned two extremely important pieces of information: first, the introduction of the Abyssal Ones as awakened number #1's of the organization's past. Riful was featured and played a major role (even as an observer and torture orquestrator) in the arc while Isley was named with his respective dwelling place following his name (and that alone could be considered another additional piece of information, as it might have been the first time we heard in the story that the continent was subdivided geographically or topologically); second, we heard the whereabouts of Priscilla and what was rumored to have happened to her (fought against Isley in the north, "lost" and became his woman or follower and also received a traumatic strike in her head in the process, which accounted for some memory loss).

So it had a lot of plot relevance, as it introduced the Abyssals (along with hints of the land where the story takes place), and essentially gave Clare (and the story) a new path/direction to follow. Everything from there on was heading north. Priscilla, Pieta, Raki; and it all began there, in The Witch's Maw.

--

I think these are some of the main reasons why The Witch's Maw arc generally has a soft spot in the minds of most claymore fans. I know some people might have different kinds of feelings and expectations when reading the same story, which is fair enough. You seemed to focus on the "In the end, everyone ends up well and unscathed" part, which in itself might not be totally true if we analyse a bit. Galatea ended up with a few holes in her sweet body, while Clare had her leg broken/squashed by Duff, which she had to go over her limit to regenerate. Jean was fortunately pushed back in the last moments of her human consciousness by Clare and had been enduring some gruesome torture under the hands of Riful and Duff. They somehow finished the arc in decent shape, but we can't really say they were really unscathed with all the wounds they received, even if some or most were regenerated.

We could say that it was indeed a miracle for Clare, Galatea and Jean to have survived that situation, but it was a welcome one for a change. And miracles aren't necessarily bad for a story, as long as they aren't overused and are also well timed and placed. I think the execution on The Witch's Maw was fine under these aspects by Yagi.


TL;DR: Galatea is awesome.
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.
.
.
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Just kidding (), The Witch's Maw was an awesome arc, not only because of the merits of the arc itself, but because Claymore as a whole was a great story up to that point (and in some aspects it still is to this day) and Yagi was using well the build ups, effects and the momentum that the past arcs had in their readers.

(*) as a slightly unrelated note, one thing that not only The Witch's Maw but also the War in the North arcs that followed had were really awesome background/settings that complemented the ongoing battles or conficts.
The dungeon/maze in The Witch's Maw and the city of Pieta during the War in the North made for some really unique backgrounds for the battles to take place, and that really added to the reader experience.
The rooftops of Rabona come to mind as well. Really dynamic scenario.

Unfortunately, many of the battles in Claymore happen at arid barrens/wastelands (like the one we are going through right now), and that makes for some rather blank or poor battlegrounds. It definitely makes life much easier for Yagi and his assistant to draw such empty scenarios, but hopefully we will have more interesting settings close to our next battles.

Hahaha, in the end, I guess I had to make yet another very long post (as usual ), but I promise I will try to make things shorter from now on.
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Old 2011-11-15, 09:36   Link #825
Shiek927
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Oh, I wouldn't say the thread slowed down....if anything, this has been one of the biggest in recent memory - the irony is that this was an action chapter and so many people complained they didn't like it before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackMagister View Post
Well just thinking to myself about "what if" scenarios/analyzing Miria's choice to try and actually fight in the War of the North instead of deserting.

Miria made the choice to fight in the North because she feared a purge from the Organization, but in reality Miria and company would have had a better chance of surviving a purge than the ABs. I'm not sure if Clare and Jean told Miria about Raphaela, but still Raphaela is not that bad compared to the ABs. Even if they had defeated all the ABs it would mean Isley would just sneeze and kill them. As it would turn out if Miria's group had deserted they wouldn't have had to face Raphaela anyways, but they didn't know that. Even without Raphaela they would still have to worry about Galatea tracking them down because Miria did not know about Galatea's faltering loyalty (expect for when she spared Clare). There is also the moral problem of Miria not wanting the ABs to rampage in the other lands even though if the ABs had destroyed the Organization it would be a good thing.

Anyways if Miria had deserted the fear of Raphaela and Galatea would turn out to be unfounded even though there was no way for Miria to know that. Even factoring in those two it would still be safer for the group overall to desert the fight in the North than go with the luck based pill plan. The biggest problem I see is convincing the rest of the group that the Organization is evil and they should desert because they still consider the Organization necessary. This might result in a split in the group with some following Miria and the rest trying to fight or retreating to the Organization. Either way if Miria had just wanted to save as many people as possible deserting would have been in my opinion the smarter choice.

Then again I guess Miria just overestimated the success of the pill based plan because Rigardo really ensured his kills.
Oh no doubt whatsoever -- Gooral said the same thing actually, and I agree. Miria is by no means a genius, and we know just how much of an overprotective risk-taker she is; thinking too much with her heart instead of her head (this is who she is though; rather not have her any other way ).

Her successes still have to be praised though -- a death-trap with supposedly 0% chance of survival, she pulled through and managed to save six other survivors which could be called a miracle; nevertheless, as impressive as that was, their are alternatives she could have taken which would have vastly better outcomes. We could call her a person who thinks outside-the-box for her strategies, and perhaps to a slight degree she does (the pill plan for instance), but not enough I think in the grand-scheme of things to really come up with great things (the option of abandoning the battle wholly with all the warriors instead of staying).

Also, she is definitely very "classic" in her intelligence -- seemingly coming up brilliant plans, but when one thing doesn't go according to it; everything falls apart (the six-armed AB was male, Rigardo shows up etc)......Reality has a strong tendency to do that; she stinks at improvising, and usually needs something crazy to come along and save her butt (Claire ).

The thing is, she stinks at adapting and coming up with things on the spot -- Claire lives her life like that .

I'm not insulting her -- as before, her flaws make her who she is and, despite Deneve's words about her being pretty much spot-on, she is nevertheless a brilliant commander who is looking out for your wellbeing more then you'd expect. She's far from perfect (going along with situations that could have been entirely avoided, going to Staff alone was a big one), and definitely needs a boot in the head once and awhile, but those things make her Miria.
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Last edited by Shiek927; 2011-11-15 at 10:18.
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Old 2011-11-15, 12:40   Link #826
Etheral
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I find it interesting that people are saying the pill idea was a wrong tactical move. The truth is, the organization would have squashed them at their level. Edit: Mira for example would tire sooner or later and just be beaten by a group of low level Claymores in the end, this goes for all high ranked ones. End of Edit. Sure some of them were strong, but as I see it not all thirty of those warriors were completely against the organization at that point. They just heard Mira's plan as a way to stay alive and find answers while still going along with the mission of stalling the AB. Remember, all other Claymores are considered loyal to the Organization and it would have been near impossible to convince them without proof. They would have been looked down on for not doing their mission and probably branded cowards or something. I don't think anyone was ready for a scenario of having to fight all other claymores, and they wouldn't be able to just knock them out like they did seven years later.

The other problem is the Organization itself. At the time, besides making monsters to kill villages, they weren't developed in the experiment department (visiably) and the policies devaluing the Claymores. It wasn't until later when they developed the zombie creatures and the forcing of more strict controls that it would start to sink in to the other claymores. Also they were able to tell them how they would never have beaten the monsters/ let them see how impossible the situation was and realize the organization may be behind it.

Leveling beyond what the Organization wanted them to, helped. They were able to save their comrades still in Claymore, making it impossible to stop the rumors from spreading while gaining trust. Having the organization believe them dead, avoided any propaganda and misinformation or hiding of their secrets.

Edit: Hiding their power wouldn't be possible in any other areas besides the north. Anywhere else and there would be claymores and people everywhere. Remember at that point in time, they had not trained themselves to hide youki well yet and it took them presumably years to master. I think Mira chose the only course of action possible and the pills (coupled with northern climate/terrain) were their only hope.
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Old 2011-11-15, 14:59   Link #827
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TL;DR: Galatea is awesome.
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Old 2011-11-15, 16:17   Link #828
Claymore!
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Originally Posted by Fate_Archer View Post
My opinion might be a bit biased as you might have realized because sweet Galatea had a major role in that arc, but I will try to convey why The Witch's Maw is one of my favorites and is generally considered one of the best rated arcs in the story.
Well, you had a very long post .

But i completely agree with you. The Witch's Maw is one of my favorite arcs because we were introduced to Jean, Galatea, and Riful. Galatea and Jean being some of my favorite characters. In the Anime it was really great too, I loved the songs that they played while fighting (unfortunately the exact song i loved the most was not on the soundtrack CD). But all in all the Witch's Maw had some great fighting scenes and is just a wonderful arc.

Quote:
TL;DR: Galatea is awesome.
Not only is she awesome, but she is really HOT as well .
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Old 2011-11-15, 19:41   Link #829
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@Fate_Archer,

My issue is that alongside this current arc, I feel that the Witch's Maw was merely a set up for a much larger event. While I do not truly hate either, I simply do not feel the same tension as other arcs. As you stated yourself the previous arcs typically had some brutal consequences (Ophelia terrorizing Claire, etc). From my point of view I came to expect thoughtful consequences crafted by Yagi with each arc and event. The arc(s) with Ophelia and Rigardo in my opinion were fantastic in the sense that there were no guarantees for any character. Furthermore, power and survival took sacrifice. Considering what Claire lost in order to protect Raki, to survive against Ophelia, and to continue her journey made an impact.


With the Witch's Maw arc, I simply did not feel that same type of impact or Yagi crafting the same exchange between suffering and gain that each character seemed to live by. While it is true we received Galatea and important information, I simply felt that things began to drag on. Riful, Dauf, Jean, and Galatea were not going to die since they were vital factors in future arcs. Much in the same way Miria and the ZAOs are not going to die since they will be needed to conclude future arcs. When it became apparent that the Witch's Maw arc much like this current arc are a means of setting up future events by Yagi I treated them differently.

Edit: If I may add is that this may just be the cost of Claymore being monthly. These set-up arcs take months if not years to complete. Just look at the complaints with the current arc. Claire/Priscilla are stashed away for later and we have the introduction of news characters that are meant to drive the plot back to Claire. Much like the Witch's Maw, nothing considerable(characters dying, conclusions, etc) is going to happen until later.

Last edited by Nixl; 2011-11-15 at 20:10.
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Old 2011-11-16, 01:23   Link #830
Etheral
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@Fate_Archer,
Edit: If I may add is that this may just be the cost of Claymore being monthly. These set-up arcs take months if not years to complete. Just look at the complaints with the current arc. Claire/Priscilla are stashed away for later and we have the introduction of news characters that are meant to drive the plot back to Claire. Much like the Witch's Maw, nothing considerable(characters dying, conclusions, etc) is going to happen until later.
Answering your edit. That is a valid complaint about it taking a year for an arc. However, you are believing that Clare/Priscilla can't be solved immediately. I speculated that Raki would use the synchronization youki (I think he's a male Claymore or some variant at this point.) to revive Claire but there is another possibility. The chapter specifically mentions the intentions of the evil doctor (forgot name), he wants the hand to return to its master implying some kind of link or ability. So there is the possibility of any one of the #1 AB's to go and revive Claire/Priscilla by the end of the chapter if the author so wishes. It may be improbable but not out of the realm of possibility.

Edit: I do think the revival will take longer, but the author has many ways to get Claire out if that inclination occurred. I also think a complete revolt of the Claymores is 'considerable'. You don't always need the main characters to push the story. Also your viewpoint is Claire's revenge is the focus of the manga which might not be the case. Even if it is the main driving force, authors are allowed to have more than one.
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Old 2011-11-16, 08:09   Link #831
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Being a bit biased, I really liked the Witch's Maw for a few particular things:

1) Riful was introduced. In my opinion, she is one of the best characters created by Yagi for a few reasons. First, she enjoys torturing and is the only character I know who would let Galatea, Clare and Jean go. She loves playing games and is true to her words unlike Isley and Luciella (both are two-faced Abyssals). She is also very powerful and I really love her awakened form. She can even fight without limbs using her magical hair, something Isley can't do. Lastly, she loves Dauf and vice-versa. They never left each other and you can really see that she was more than just the monster most people like her for.

2) Clare finally managed to control her quick sword. She also met and pulled Jean back from awakening. We also got to see Clare's improvement after Ophelia's slaughter.

3) Galatea was introduced. Nuff said.

4) Awesome fight Scenes with Dauf was awesome. One of the finest teamworks I've seen in Claymore. No Miria needed.
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Old 2011-11-16, 08:44   Link #832
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I liked the characters introduced as well ReverserReasoning, but the arc(s) seemed to merely set-up something larger in the plot. Hence, no one was going to die in the Witch's Maw arc due to the fact that they were needed later. Personally, that lack of tension made it somewhat weaker in my mind compared to other arcs. Essentially, I believe that Yagi follows a pattern and for the moment I think that this current arc is serving a similar purpose to the Witch's Maw.

The complaints that posters have brought forward for this arc are not too different from how I felt with the Witch's Maw arc. We have some potentially interesting characters and new information, but nothing is happening at all. At least nothing of consequence is going to happen, yet. Even if a situation proved dire for a character the situation would be reversed. These characters cannot die for the reason that they are needed to drive the plot. Until that plot finally happens we are going to be sitting and watching a set-up arc.


In a sense, Yagi is just attempting to mask an excuse to insert plot direction and characters by hiding it around "tense" fights (no one can die though). Miria and the ZAOs are probably no more closer to dying than Galatea or Jean were in the Witch's Maw arc. They are needed to drive the plot.
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Old 2011-11-16, 09:43   Link #833
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Actually Nixl we weren't sure that everyone would survive encounter with Duff and Riful. Heck, we couldn't even be sure that Clare would survive this (and if yes - in what shape) since we didn't know for how long Yagi intended to continue the story. Even if someone would assume that since Clare is a main hero she can't die, Galatea and Jean were far from it. For the rest Fate_Archer has beautifully summed up why Witch's Maw arc is awesome.

Now compare it to the current arc in which we've had revivals (of Miria, Raftela and ZAOs) but no confirmed or visible deaths of any Claymore or human. None. Miria survived against much more unfavorable odds than Clare and we can be pretty sure she will survive all this seeing how she was forcefully kept alive. There was no such thing 12 volumes ago. They will all survive at least until Priscilla/Clare arrives so that we could see their jaws on the ground.
Also, we didn't have back-up players then. Now we have several. Even if Miria would die there is Clare, there is Galatea, there is Clarice and Miata and there is Deneve and co., all of them in different places. Until only one group is left there won't even be a trace of the anxiety that accompanied me when I was reading volumes 8-9.
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Old 2011-11-16, 10:18   Link #834
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I respect your opinion Gooral, but I simply did not share that anxiety with the Witch's Maw arc. While I enjoyed the characters, I just felt did not feel too strongly about it, especially compared to the arcs with Ophelia. At a certain point, I felt that they were all going to survive with perhaps the exception of Dauf. In the end they all survived. It may not be a terrible arc, but I do not think it was the best arc in the story.

Also, the reason I bring up the current arc in relation to the Witch's Maw is that I believe they share a similar purpose and that is they both seem to be setting up a much larger conflict or battle.

edit: I guess this is a matter of personal enjoyment. I am not surprised though, considering that I am one of the few readers who probably hated Teresa and the chapters before Ophelia. Figures I would also be one of the few to dislike the Witch's Maw arc.
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Old 2011-11-16, 10:30   Link #835
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It's surprising to me then that you were reading 9 volumes of a manga that was at best so-so in your opinion. I would have dropped it after 2-3 volumes (and if I read really good opinions about it maybe after 5) if I thought it wasn't worth reading and characters sucked.
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Old 2011-11-16, 10:39   Link #836
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Well it is not that Claymore is not worth reading. It has some interesting twists to a typical shounen narrative. I was pleasantly surprised when Teresa died and that is when I truly picked the story up. I do not want you to come away with the idea that I think it sucks Gooral, but rather I just did not find the Witch's Maw arc or Teresa spectacular. In terms of story structure, I think the current arc is just a set up for something else like the Witch's Maw.

In truth, I enjoy Claymore for the conversation that it sparks more so than anything else. I tend to enjoy Blade of the Immortal, Vagabond, Berserk, Blame!, Shigurui, Blue Heaven, Homunculus, First of the North Star, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, etc more in terms of story, but there are fewer avenues for debate.

edit: Ouch, Ryus, why did you me make curious about the Revan book. I just read the spoilers, my eyes, my eyes. Is it possible to kill a series so badly and not have be intentional? This is like meta-trolling a franchise...by the writers themselves.

edit: Oh my god, I forgot to list Vagabond, First of the North Star and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

Last edited by Nixl; 2011-11-16 at 11:08.
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Old 2011-11-16, 12:05   Link #837
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I just found the perfect song for a Cassandra MMV ... gawd, wish I had some time for it
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Old 2011-11-16, 12:15   Link #838
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Dunno Haegar, with Cassandra and the zombies I would think,


or



Spoiler for Extra points:
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Old 2011-11-16, 12:23   Link #839
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lol. jackpot. all three are blocked from germany. curse our RIAA clone not getting settled with tube... at least I know the Rob Zombie one... gonna try proxy them, though gotta say, I kinda fell in love with the beat and the "She may be dead but has a heart - She's keeps it together as she falls apart" lyrics .. specially the keeps it together as she falls apart makes sense with regard to miss slashed a hundred times, desu ne?!
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Old 2011-11-16, 12:26   Link #840
Nixl
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Join Date: Sep 2009
All of them...damn.

That is also fitting Haegar,
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