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Old 2012-07-23, 13:49   Link #281
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNiles View Post
But I'm not sure how encryption works with a pictographic language...
Back then hiragana and katakana already existed. Better still, if monkey teaches them to wirte japanese using the barbarian alphabet and they encode messages with simple rules (i.e. increase the consonants by two, decrease the vowels by one) the messages it would be nigh imposible for the enemy to decipher and even if the code is leaked, the encoding can be changed on a weekly basis.
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Old 2012-07-23, 13:51   Link #282
ReaperxKingx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNiles View Post
Even if he were able to apply advanced technology, those techniques would eventually be copied and used against him, setting off an arms race. They would have to subjugate all their opponents before that happens.

If I had to pick something with the least hassle, I would choose crytographic techniques (and that requires specialized knowledge too) for encoding orders and recon info. But I'm not sure how encryption works with a pictographic language...
Something like Modern knowledge would be better suited than actual Modern Weapons. Knowledge isn't something you can just pick up like a weapon so I agree with you.
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Old 2012-07-23, 15:02   Link #283
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNiles View Post
Even if he were able to apply advanced technology, those techniques would eventually be copied and used against him, setting off an arms race. They would have to subjugate all their opponents before that happens.

If I had to pick something with the least hassle, I would choose cryptographic techniques (and that requires specialized knowledge too) for encoding orders and recon info. But I'm not sure how encryption works with a pictographic language...

edit: corrected spelling
You do realize this is a nation that shunned "foreign technologies" as something unconservative, thus giving Nobunaga who was actively flexible a massive edge in conquest of Japan right?

Said arms race would take so long to develop, it wouldn't matter in Saru and Nobuna's lifetime.
Renassiance europeans these samurai are not.

Historical Nobunaga and Toyotomi/Kinoshita were successful precisely because they weren't stubborn stone heads.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:49   Link #284
zgmf-x19a
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He does have a few techniques that are helpful such as increasing money in a short amount of time and maybe his 'common knowledge of his timeline' can be used to put in place to create novel war strategies.The fact that he knows a lot about the era makes him a fearsome being.
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Last edited by zgmf-x19a; 2012-07-23 at 18:27.
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Old 2012-07-23, 17:14   Link #285
technomo12
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NAGAMASA HAS TO DIE

nuff said
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Old 2012-07-23, 18:24   Link #286
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You do realize this is a nation that shunned "foreign technologies" as something unconservative, thus giving Nobunaga who was actively flexible a massive edge in conquest of Japan right?

Said arms race would take so long to develop, it wouldn't matter in Saru and Nobuna's lifetime.
Renassiance europeans these samurai are not.

Historical Nobunaga and Toyotomi/Kinoshita were successful precisely because they weren't stubborn stone heads.
Almost accurate, the reason for rejecting foreign technology was the change/advancement that it brought into their way of life and consequently to the sociopolitical balance. This is though nothing exclusive to "medieval" Japan, all conservatives reject any sort of advancement on the same basis... evolving is a very very bad thing
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Old 2012-07-23, 18:41   Link #287
SPARTAN 119
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In addition new weapon plans (bayonets, volley guns, conical rifle bullets, possibly crude revolvers), think of some of the other things Saru could bring the feudal Japan, for instance, some basic medical concepts. For instance, considering how many people in that time died of disease at the time, even some basic personal hygiene could save lives. Not to mention the knowledge of germs, though it wouldn't be easy to convince people in feudal Japan of the existence of microorganisms.

Just thinking about this gives me all sorts of alternate history/time travel fiction plot bunnies:

First off, an Oda Nobuna No Yabou fanfic where Saru designs a volley gun, bayonets, rifling and conical bullets, etc.

Second, instead of an average highschool student, an university student majoring in engineering is transported back to Sengoku-era Japan (will likely not be an ONnY fanfic, as Nobunaga etc will likely still be male, if I ever write this) or, anywhere in the 16th century for that matter. Said engineer ends up in the employ of Nobunaga or some other daimyo and ends up designing a number of more advanced weaponry, starting with weapons similar with what Saru could conceivably come up with, but eventually designing more advanced weaponry- the main material for a precussion cap, mercury fulminate, is, according to Wikipedia, made from mercury, nitric acid, and ethanol. Mercury was known since ancient China, and feudal Japanese would definitely be familiar with ethanol in the form of sake. As for nitric acid, it was synthesized in 13th century Europe, so could probably be produced in feudal Japan.

From there, it would be possible to produce precussion rifles, fully contained brass cartridges, and eventually repeating firearms and automatic weapons, and with an engineer for the future, it would be like having a cheat guide for the next 500 years of technology. However, to keep things interesting I probably make it so the engineer will be unable to make things go much past the American Civil War- single shot rifles with maybe some Gatling-style weapons.

In addition to firearms, a modern engineer might be able to put together a steam engine, and combine that with a design similar to "Da Vinci's tank", an armored vehicle, armed with multiple cannon and ports for Tanegashima and bows.

I suspect with something like that, Nobunaga's ambition would stretch far beyond unifying Japan, especially if our engineer protagonist can design some steam powered armored warships capable off effectively reversing the outcome the Battle of Noryang.
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Old 2012-07-23, 18:46   Link #288
wagnerr
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is not interesting episode to watch
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:02   Link #289
Anime Online
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You do realize this is a nation that shunned "foreign technologies" as something unconservative, thus giving Nobunaga who was actively flexible a massive edge in conquest of Japan right?

Said arms race would take so long to develop, it wouldn't matter in Saru and Nobuna's lifetime.
Renassiance europeans these samurai are not.

Historical Nobunaga and Toyotomi/Kinoshita were successful precisely because they weren't stubborn stone heads.

Historically, once it became abundantly clear the usefulness of foreign guns, the various daimyos of Japan set off a massive arms race. Japan metalsmiths reverse engineered these foreign guns and began their own local production.

By the end of the Sengoku Jidai, Japan was known to have even more firearms than any European counterpart. These local firearms were every bit as good as (if not better than) the European imports. The Japanese invented the foresight, many years before the idea even came to the Europeans. They also invented a box to shield the match from the rain, allowing the guns to be fired in wet weather.

These guns would later be used in Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea to devastating result, though the invasion ultimately failed.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:01   Link #290
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119 View Post
-Snip-
May I say that we're going to need someone actually working on weapons to do even a tenth of what you're proposing?
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:11   Link #291
ReaperxKingx
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For now the most technological weapon is the Tanegashima or the Japanese's Matchlock. Oda Nobunaga ordered 500 of them when they were first introduce in Japan by the Portuguese in 1543. If I remember correctly didn't the first episode have Nobuna taking 500 riflemen to the Saitō Dōsan. Japan worked very hard on them, upgrading to bigger calibers and developing firing patterns. At first they were a hassle, but the plus side is anyone can used it. Farmers and new troops can used it as ease. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanegas...ese_matchlock)
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:08   Link #292
D-Joe
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by technomo12 View Post
NAGAMASA HAS TO DIE

nuff said
oh i can sure you don't want nagamasa die after...episode 6 or 7 i guess
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:18   Link #293
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119 View Post
In addition new weapon plans (bayonets, volley guns, conical rifle bullets, possibly crude revolvers), think of some of the other things Saru could bring the feudal Japan, for instance, some basic medical concepts. For instance, considering how many people in that time died of disease at the time, even some basic personal hygiene could save lives. Not to mention the knowledge of germs, though it wouldn't be easy to convince people in feudal Japan of the existence of microorganisms.

Just thinking about this gives me all sorts of alternate history/time travel fiction plot bunnies:

First off, an Oda Nobuna No Yabou fanfic where Saru designs a volley gun, bayonets, rifling and conical bullets, etc.

Second, instead of an average highschool student, an university student majoring in engineering is transported back to Sengoku-era Japan (will likely not be an ONnY fanfic, as Nobunaga etc will likely still be male, if I ever write this) or, anywhere in the 16th century for that matter. Said engineer ends up in the employ of Nobunaga or some other daimyo and ends up designing a number of more advanced weaponry, starting with weapons similar with what Saru could conceivably come up with, but eventually designing more advanced weaponry- the main material for a precussion cap, mercury fulminate, is, according to Wikipedia, made from mercury, nitric acid, and ethanol. Mercury was known since ancient China, and feudal Japanese would definitely be familiar with ethanol in the form of sake. As for nitric acid, it was synthesized in 13th century Europe, so could probably be produced in feudal Japan.

From there, it would be possible to produce precussion rifles, fully contained brass cartridges, and eventually repeating firearms and automatic weapons, and with an engineer for the future, it would be like having a cheat guide for the next 500 years of technology. However, to keep things interesting I probably make it so the engineer will be unable to make things go much past the American Civil War- single shot rifles with maybe some Gatling-style weapons.

In addition to firearms, a modern engineer might be able to put together a steam engine, and combine that with a design similar to "Da Vinci's tank", an armored vehicle, armed with multiple cannon and ports for Tanegashima and bows.

I suspect with something like that, Nobunaga's ambition would stretch far beyond unifying Japan, especially if our engineer protagonist can design some steam powered armored warships capable off effectively reversing the outcome the Battle of Noryang.
Saru is a lone highschooler with no internet access, not an engineering polymath.
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:35   Link #294
SPARTAN 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
May I say that we're going to need someone actually working on weapons to do even a tenth of what you're proposing?
So, make him an arms engineer with a company supplying the JSDF. That said, If I do ever write this, I should probably tone it down to things like bayonets, rifling, double barrels, etc. Don't want to make later battles to much of a curb stomp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
Saru is a lone highschooler with no internet access, not an engineering polymath.
I was thinking of a completely original story with an original character (and a non-genderbended, non-moefied Sengoku Period)


Anyway,

As for the main series, I'm interested to see how far into the life of Nobuna(ga) they go into in the series, they are already at Okehazama. They mention the Battle of Nagashino, where Oda's musketeers mow down the Takeda cavalry, I'm assuming the at least the light novels will go at least that far.

Also, I'm assuming Nobuna will not suffer the final fate of Oda Nobunaga- committing seppeku at Honno-ji in 1582. I suspect Saru will somehow be able to prevent that.

Now there's the question of how much Saru's life will parallel that of Toyotomi Hideyoshi. I can't see Saru placing restrictions on social mobility such as making it so only members of the samurai class could bear arms (somewhat hypocritical as Hideyoshi himself rose from lower classes), or crucifying any Christians in Japan. And then, there is the question of whether he will continue with Nobuna's (will Nobunaga's but probably also Nobuna's) dream to take over China and Korea... and whether Saru and Nobuna will succeed (I suppose Saru would know about Admiral Yi Sun Shin and the turtle ships, but could he really do anything except warn Nobuna not to invade Korea).
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Old 2012-07-23, 22:14   Link #295
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Online View Post
Historically, once it became abundantly clear the usefulness of foreign guns, the various daimyos of Japan set off a massive arms race. Japan metalsmiths reverse engineered these foreign guns and began their own local production.

By the end of the Sengoku Jidai, Japan was known to have even more firearms than any European counterpart. These local firearms were every bit as good as (if not better than) the European imports. The Japanese invented the foresight, many years before the idea even came to the Europeans. They also invented a box to shield the match from the rain, allowing the guns to be fired in wet weather.

These guns would later be used in Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea to devastating result, though the invasion ultimately failed.
It took a lifetime to get to that point though. Hinawajuu existed long before Saru set afoot in ths era.
By the end of Sengoku era, Japan had more firearms than Euro nations, yes.
But Keep in mind that happened along with Nobunaga and Toyotomi's conquest of Japan.
Their conquest sped up the technological advancement, not their rivals'.
That's why my statement is true. "Historical Nobunaga and Toyotomi/Kinoshita were successful precisely because they weren't stubborn stone heads."

If Saru "introduced" a new technology (which he won't, I'm sure) right now, it'd take a lifetime of adjusting for their opponents from that point.
By the time their opponents saw the validity of usage of those weapons, their backs are already backed to a corner.

Double-barrell and Bayonettes are perfectly reasonable improvement to the tanegashima rifles, and could tip the favor even more in favor for Owari.
These daimyos lost the so-called "arms race" even in real history, I seriously doubt they'd be able to cope with even faster one.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-07-23 at 22:32.
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Old 2012-07-23, 22:34   Link #296
Kyuu
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Despite having a backlog and going through it ever slowly -- I wanted one series to watch week in week out. I chose this one.
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Old 2012-07-24, 01:46   Link #297
jeroz
Art Block Specialist
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whsie View Post
If you were raw light novel reader, you would probably realize that this cour has A LOT of good light novels being adapted (Hagure, Campione, Dakara, SAO, Oda). Of that group only Oda has been properly and faithfully adapted. It's the only adaptation where I can say reading the novel and viewing the anime is similar.
Lulz, how could you miss out Kokoro Connect and Jintai(ok this one is more like a children's book, but still)?
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Old 2012-07-24, 04:28   Link #298
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Back then hiragana and katakana already existed. Better still, if monkey teaches them to wirte japanese using the barbarian alphabet and they encode messages with simple rules (i.e. increase the consonants by two, decrease the vowels by one) the messages it would be nigh imposible for the enemy to decipher and even if the code is leaked, the encoding can be changed on a weekly basis.
So. That'd make Mr Monkey the first person of the JET program.
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Old 2012-07-24, 05:07   Link #299
wagnerr
philosopher stone power
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
i as sengoku history lover/reader i despise it !!!
treating nagamasa without respect is crazy and absurd !! IMO
ruining the epicness !!

ruining history...
i do not understand the author direction
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Old 2012-07-24, 05:44   Link #300
Master Assassin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagnerr View Post
i as sengoku history lover/reader i despise it !!!
treating nagamasa without respect is crazy and absurd !! IMO
ruining the epicness !!

ruining history...
i do not understand the author direction
Were you expecting the anime to be a total documentary about the Sengoku Period?
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