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Old 2012-09-09, 23:54   Link #1281
Kaihan
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Katsuie solution to problems: Kill them all!

Biggest shock this episode was Asai being a girl. Was there any hints on that? Cause I missed them all.

Last half of the episode was pretty intense.
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Last edited by Kaihan; 2012-09-10 at 00:06.
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Old 2012-09-09, 23:57   Link #1282
Panzerklein
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Originally Posted by Kaihan View Post
Katsuie solution to problems: Kill them all!

Biggest shock this episode was Asai being a girl. Was there any hints on that? Cause I missed them all.

Last half of the episode was pretty intense.
There were hints in the ep 5.
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Old 2012-09-09, 23:59   Link #1283
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is a surprisingly fantastic show in the best way possible. My eyes were glued to the screen and I am now full of anger due to the fact I cannot move forward in time to see next week's episode.

Edit: Also, Nobusumi wins at everything. The guy is becoming the real hero of this show (in a dress)!
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Old 2012-09-09, 23:59   Link #1284
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Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
During the DaiViet - Champa war in 15th century, Vietian gunners rotate 20 volleys of arquebusers
Wait, am I missing something here? The arquebus being in use by Vietnam in the 15th century, when the Europeans only started using them in large numbers from the late 15th century? Are you sure you're getting your facts right?

The point is, regardless of who used the rotating volley first (it's been used even during the days of archery), I find some of what I'm reading from your posts to contradict what I know of Vietnam military history.
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Old 2012-09-10, 00:08   Link #1285
Panzerklein
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Wait, am I missing something here? The arquebus being in use by Vietnam in the 15th century, when the Europeans only started using them in large numbers from the late 15th century? Are you sure you're getting your facts right?

The point is, regardless of who used the rotating volley first (it's been used even during the days of archery), I find some of what I'm reading from your posts to contradict what I know of Vietnam military history.
Yah, Champa - Dai Viet war is 1471 (consider it is late 15th century too). After independent war against China's Ming Dynasty, Vietian consider firearm is nex-gen weapon for furture warfare and developed firearm so much. And Champa is the first victim of Vietnamese firearm warfare. Since 16th century, with the contact of European, both domestic technology and european technology were combine in Vietnamese arquebus and musket. Then after firearm become primary and major weapon of Vietian armies and long cilvil war in Viet during 17~19th century, steel armor become obsoleted in Vietnam. That make a bad resuilt, no matter how you find, you will find no any kind of medieval armors of Vietnam.
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Old 2012-09-10, 00:23   Link #1286
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God, just seen Episode 10 and my comment...

"Why is her voice is still masculine... the two hugging together in the onsen is creepying me out!!!!!" She's a woman! She's a woman!!! I can't put it inside my head!!!!"
It probably has to do with her voice actress, Mitsuki Saiga who mostly voices male characters. (Mitsuki also voiced female characters as well like Sumire Hirose from Saki and Kou Atari from Star Driver.)
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Old 2012-09-10, 00:47   Link #1287
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Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
Yah, Champa - Dai Viet war is 1471 (consider it is late 15th century too). After independent war against China's Ming Dynasty, Vietian consider firearm is nex-gen weapon for furture warfare and developed firearm so much. And Champa is the first victim of Vietnamese firearm warfare. Since 16th century, with the contact of European, both domestic technology and european technology were combine in Vietnamese arquebus and musket. Then after firearm become primary and major weapon of Vietian armies and long cilvil war in Viet during 17~19th century, steel armor become obsoleted in Vietnam. That make a bad resuilt, no matter how you find, you will find no any kind of medieval armors of Vietnam.
Again, all resources I have point to miniaturized huochongs (which are firearms) and certainly not arquebuses. Could you give me a source on the use of arquebuses in 15th century Vietnam?
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Old 2012-09-10, 01:43   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Both of them are anime original characters who happen to be Nobuna's messengers.

池田恒興(Ikeda Tsuneoki)
佐々成政(Sassa Narimasa)
While they may be anime original characters, those names belong to real live samurai who served Nobunaga, it's just that they are not as famous as other characters.
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Old 2012-09-10, 01:53   Link #1289
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Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
There were hints in the ep 5.
really? what were the hints cuz i didnt notice anything. infact, it feels kinda out of place to find out he's a girl, you couldnt really tell cuz of the lighting in that scene. (talking about his/her hair)
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Old 2012-09-10, 03:24   Link #1290
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Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
really? what were the hints cuz i didnt notice anything. infact, it feels kinda out of place to find out he's a girl, you couldnt really tell cuz of the lighting in that scene. (talking about his/her hair)
This screen.
Spoiler for :


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Again, all resources I have point to miniaturized huochongs (which are firearms) and certainly not arquebuses. Could you give me a source on the use of arquebuses in 15th century Vietnam?
Huochongs were used in 1390 in Vietnam, but obsoleted in 1471. In Dai Viet Su Ky (sorry because these kinds of books are rarely translated to English and my English is limited), Le Thanh Tong's army use new type of firearm is called "Hỏa thằng câu thương" (Hỏa thằng = firing rope, câu thương = gun), use slow-burning match mechanism.
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Last edited by Panzerklein; 2012-09-10 at 04:02.
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:04   Link #1291
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Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
Actually, Firearm volley fire appear earlier than Oda Nobunaga. "Vietnam Borderless Histories" and "Đại Việt Sử Ký Toŕn Thư", In 1390, the Champa King, Chế Bồng Nga, was killed by a volley fire of Huochong (Hoả Đồng in Vietnamese) from Dai-Vietian gunners.
that's different form what i've known. It's said that the Champa king's personal cooker betrayed him and ping point his flagship to the Đại Việt Fleet.

btw, the weapon you mention above is not the arquebus. It's just somekind of hand cannon
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:32   Link #1292
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So yeah, NagamasaXNobuna doesn't seem too bad now.
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:35   Link #1293
Panzerklein
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Originally Posted by Scout_Master View Post
that's different form what i've known. It's said that the Champa king's personal cooker betrayed him and ping point his flagship to the Đại Việt Fleet.

btw, the weapon you mention above is not the arquebus. It's just somekind of hand cannon
That not different. His flagship was pin pon and were attacked by Vietian special force and kill him in first volley.

BTW, I never said Vietian used arquebus to kill Champa kin in 1390, I only said volley shoot tactic was used at that time. But the guns in 1471 use slow-burning match trigger, I don't know any kind of hand-cannon use matchlock.
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:36   Link #1294
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As I remember it, the hỏa thằng câu thương was used in the 16th century, not the 15th. You're probably thinking of the dụng dung thương, which is basically a mini cannon on a stick without a triggering mechanism.


Example of hỏa thằng câu thương




Example of dụng dung thương

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Old 2012-09-10, 04:46   Link #1295
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which one ? left or right ? ( left is the arquebus, if i not wrong)
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:47   Link #1296
Panzerklein
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@Sumeragi:"Hỏa thằng" itself is mean firing-rope, "câu" is hook-like thing. Its use matchlock mechanism with slow-burning rope attach on hook trigger. The handcanon is just called "Hỏa thương" or "hỏa đồng" - "Fire Tube". Later, another type is call "Thạch cơ điểu thương" is flintlock, "Thạch cơ" is "flint mechanism".

This is a 15th century European arquebus, similiar to small handcannon on wooden stick than later arquebus but use matchlock mechanism.

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Old 2012-09-10, 04:52   Link #1297
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You're missing the point: first the date for the hỏa thằng câu thương is off by a century, second there is no firing mechanism in the dụng dung thương except a string which burns into the gunpowder like the cannons on a ship.
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Old 2012-09-10, 05:13   Link #1298
lightbringer
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Originally Posted by Kaihan View Post
Biggest shock this episode was Asai being a girl. Was there any hints on that? Cause I missed them all.
That really came out of left field but I guess we should've expected it, given that anyone else of importance in this story is basically a girl. . But I certainly didn't see that one coming.

But the biggest shock for me was the wedding between Nobuna and Saru in the preview. While it's clear that Nobuna won't die just yet, I'm just going to assume for now that it's Saru's delirium or imagination and not a scene that will really happen.
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Old 2012-09-10, 07:51   Link #1299
Panzerklein
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You're missing the point: first the date for the hỏa thằng câu thương is off by a century, second there is no firing mechanism in the dụng dung thương except a string which burns into the gunpowder like the cannons on a ship.
Any source for hoả thằng câu thương is only appear in 16th century in Viet and Viet only use Dụng thung thương during 15th century? What I said is hoả thằng câu thương, not hoả thương.

As I said before, dụng thung thương or hoả thương for short, were only used late 14th century and Viet-Ming war at early 15th century, and was replaced by hoả thằng câu thương in Viet-Champa war (late 15th century). Hoả thằng câu thương's first war is 1471, not to mention you Ottoman is used matchlock already in 1440s, and earlier, in a Chinese firearm manual book - "Huolongjing" meantion matchlock mechanism. The picture you show is 16th century Vietnamese matchlock, is not mean Vietnamese matchlock appear only since 16th century.
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Last edited by Panzerklein; 2012-09-10 at 08:49.
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Old 2012-09-10, 08:01   Link #1300
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