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Old 2012-07-25, 22:08   Link #341
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Considering how incredibly vast the universe is, the loss of a single planet isn't a big deal, guys.
It's not a question of how many planets are lost. It's a question of how many lives are lost. I emphasized how Kriemheld Gretchen would have destroyed Earth in Timeline 4 simply to show how that would likely mean the end of humanity itself (i.e. cost several billion lives).

Losing a planet in a solar system with no life in it is obviously very different than losing Earth.


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If you're going to talk about the objective harm the Incubators cause, you have to also consider their objective good.
Which is what, exactly? The only "objective good" that can be pointed towards when it comes to the Incubators is speculative at best.


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Objectively, they are heroes.
No, they are not.

Objectively, they are villains. They needlessly cause severe harm to innocent people.
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Old 2012-07-25, 22:10   Link #342
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Maybe we should create a "Is Kyubey evil" thread and let people duke it out.
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Old 2012-07-25, 22:18   Link #343
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someone did the calculations on Energy generation here

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Assume Incubators are trying to sustain the entire universe using the misery of little girls. According to data gathered by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotrophy Probe (WMAP), energy density of the universe comes down to roughly 9.9 x 10^-30 g/cm3, or 0,889767627 joules/km^3. The expansion rate of the universe, again as determined by WMAP observations is roughly 71.9 (km/s)/Mpc, ignoring other studies. The minimum radius of the universe, as determined by cosmic microwave background radiation data, is 12 gigaparsecs. Consequently, the universe gains at least 862800 kilometers of radius per second, which comes down to a volume gain of 1.48656647 10^54 kilometers cubed per second.

Thus, in order to maintain the energy density of the universe (admittedly, though, there are better ways to preserve life) 1.32269872 10^54 joules is required every second. Let us use high estimates and say that there is one magical girl for every 1,000 people. As of now, there are roughly 6,9 billion living people, so there are 6,900,000 magical girls across the world. Assume that every magical girl defeats a witch every two days, and hands over her Grief Seed to an Incubator for its energy to be collected. This comes down to roughly 40 witches being defeated every second. Therefore, if the energy density of the universe is to be maintained, every Grief Seed needs to have an energy output of at least 3.31249766 10^52 joules. What can you do with this sort of energy?

A. Supply the Earth’s energy needs for roughly 8.6 octillion years, a timespan 62,802,117 10^17 times the current age of the universe.

B. Create 368,565,071 10^35 kilograms of any matter. This comes down to about 184,027 sun-sized stars, 61 billion Earth-sized planets or a single supermassive black hole with a radius of 547,298,036 kilometers, roughly 14 times the distance between Earth and the Moon.

C. In a single year, enough energy is collected to create roughly 10 galaxies the size of our Milky Way.

D. Create a single explosion a few hundred thousand times stronger than any gamma ray burst we’ve observed so far. This would end most, if not all life (at least carbon-based life as we know it) pretty much everywhere from Earth to Andromeda galaxy.

Personally, the only reason I can muster for this bizarre turn is that the writers want to change the setting. In the previous episodes, QB has become a bit too obviously antagonistic, making him a villain of sorts. But this development changes things, making QB not a villain but an act of god. Something outside human power. So the objective here becomes not “winning,” but rather “surviving.”

However, it should also be noted that this series of calculations assumes that Earth is the only source of emotional beings located by the Incubators. This is never explicitly stated to be the case; all that is stated is that their own species lacks them. Thus, if there are other worlds with emotional beings, the burden on Earth's population would be greatly lessened. And given the size of the universe and the Incubators' civilisation's evident technological advancement (allowing them, one presumes, to travel it fairly easily), this does seem fairly likely, especially considering how Kyubey is not interested to the Earth fate in Episode 10.

On the other hand, Kyubey could be just lying and trying to use the issue of entropy as a form of deception as a way to lure Puellae Magi to sacrifice their lives for a noble cause. However, given the ending of the series, it leaves open the idea that the universe is ending because of entropy as a plausible explanation.
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Old 2012-07-25, 23:12   Link #344
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
someone did the calculations on Energy generation here
That was a pointless and presupposition-filled article the first time it was written. The author even points it out himself, it is extremely likely (more like essentially stated with Kyuubey's "quota" line) that the humans are not at all the only sentient species the Incubators are mining for energy. There was never any point in using the numbers provided even as remote estimates.

In any case, it is extremely difficult to at all consider the Incubator's truly "emotionless". If a species were truly completely rational/objective, why would they even care about the end of the universe? In all likelihood, the Incubators are merely acting for their own benefit and survival of their species. It's not that they are really all that different from humans, they are simply billions of years more advanced in technology and sentience to the point that human worries and suffering appear completely insignificant to them.

Sort of similarly to the way humans treat/perceive cows.

There's hardly a matter of "morality" here, races with higher sentience/greater technology will always exploit others. So the humans exploit livestock, so the Incubators exploit humanity.

I think it is hypocritical to apply any sort of moral judgement on the Incubators; the only thing that any individual can do is, acknowledging the limitations of their own potential/abilities, decide to protect what's important to them. For Madoka: humans, Mitakihara town, Magical Girls--they were worth protecting. And that's all; she did not presume to make any judgement on the Incubators because she clearly is not in any sort of position to do so. In the spirit of this, I don't expect at all for the final Madoka movie to attempt any further "retribution" towards the Incubators.
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Old 2012-07-26, 00:06   Link #345
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Sort of similarly to the way humans treat/perceive cows.

There's hardly a matter of "morality" here, races with higher sentience/greater technology will always exploit others. So the humans exploit livestock, so the Incubators exploit humanity.
Humans have sapience. Cows don't. That's a key difference that you're glossing over here. Sapience is more important than sentience, and you either have sapience or you don't.

That's also why it's not hypocritical for us to make moral judgements on the actions of the Incubators. We have every right to make moral judgements on the actions of beings that display a willingness to wipe us out entirely just for energy collection.

Some people here would really benefit from watching Star Trek. Star Trek grapples with moral questions like this all the time. It does not excuse one group of beings exploiting another group of sapient beings just because of differences in technological level. It consistently, and correctly, comes down against that sort of exploitation.


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the only thing that any individual can do is, acknowledging the limitations of their own potential/abilities, decide to protect what's important to them.
Individuals are quite capable of making moral judgements. There is nothing wrong with making moral judgements, as long as a person is fair and reasonable about it.


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And that's all; she did not presume to make any judgement on the Incubators because she clearly is not in any sort of position to do so.
Back in Episode 11, Madoka expressed disgust towards Kyubey and his actions and reasons for his actions. It's about as directly critical as someone as kindhearted as Madoka could be.


I don't see any particular need for the Incubators to face "retribution" in the third movie, because in the new Madoka-World their impact is far less dangerous (and potentially a net positive for humanity, in fact). Their threat has been largely neutralized, and that's what matters. But that doesn't mean that viewers can't or shouldn't make moral judgements on the actions of the Incubators (particularly pre-MadokaWorld). Viewers have every right to do that. Viewers have every right to not accept what the Incubators did pre-MadokaWorld, just like Akito_Kinomoto doesn't accept it, to his credit.
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Old 2012-07-26, 01:55   Link #346
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It's not a question of how many planets are lost. It's a question of how many lives are lost. I emphasized how Kriemheld Gretchen would have destroyed Earth in Timeline 4 simply to show how that would likely mean the end of humanity itself (i.e. cost several billion lives).

Losing a planet in a solar system with no life in it is obviously very different than losing Earth.
Well, duh. But I'm sure every single planet with life-forms conductive to Magical Girl farming is going to be in the same ballpark as Earth's population. Just sayin'.

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Which is what, exactly? The only "objective good" that can be pointed towards when it comes to the Incubators is speculative at best.
They are making the universe live longer, allowing life forms and civilizations to exist that wouldn't exist before. If ten billion people die, but 100 billion people are born because of it, that is a good that is measurably bigger than the bad.

Does that justify it, or make it okay? That's an entirely subjective call.

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No, they are not.

Objectively, they are villains. They needlessly cause severe harm to innocent people.
I'm sorry, but it's not needless. See above. And aside from the benefits reaped by the universe at large, the Magical Girls have the opportunity to make good on their deal. The fact that these people hurt themselves with their wishes is not the Incubator's fault. Maybe we can blame them for the existence of Witches, but most girls cause their own transformations through failing to live up to their own unrealistic expectations and failure to be honest to themselves about their own desires.

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Humans have sapience. Cows don't. That's a key difference that you're glossing over here. Sapience is more important than sentience, and you either have sapience or you don't.

That's also why it's not hypocritical for us to make moral judgements on the actions of the Incubators. We have every right to make moral judgements on the actions of beings that display a willingness to wipe us out entirely just for energy collection.

Some people here would really benefit from watching Star Trek. Star Trek grapples with moral questions like this all the time. It does not excuse one group of beings exploiting another group of sapient beings just because of differences in technological level. It consistently, and correctly, comes down against that sort of exploitation.
It's worth pointing out that the Incubators seem to have a completely different cultural outlook on philosophy and morality due to not having inherent emotional capability. They might not see 'sapience' as something of intrinsic value, like we do. Humanity has spent millenia, after all, using sapience and intelligence as qualifiers as moral actors because it was unique to us, allowing us to avoid moral problems with what we do to other animals.

Those animals, however, still have QUALIA. They can suffer, and they can feel pain, and they don't want to die and be slaughtered for our personal vanity or our meals or for our entertainment. The Incubators only persecute other lifeforms in a way that benefits literally everyone. Maybe not individuals, but humanity as a species would probably appreciate not getting snuffed out by the end of the universe billions of years down the line, assuming we live that long.

Interestingly, though, humans don't generally consider 'qualia' an important qualifier for moral agency and accountability. What are the Incubator's standards? They treat people with emotions in their culture as being mentally ill. Maybe they think we are legitimately inferior beings that can't take care of ourselves. They're not entirely unjustified for thinking so, and I can see why they would think we, with our illogical behaviors and judgment skills, would think we're essentially mentally retarded.

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Back in Episode 11, Madoka expressed disgust towards Kyubey and his actions and reasons for his actions. It's about as directly critical as someone as kindhearted as Madoka could be.
Madoka also isn't an objective bystander, since she and her friends were personally persecuted for him. She's not in a position to call him good or evil from any sense of unbiased point of view.

The incubators don't even understand what the PROBLEM is, Kyubey mentioning that more of us are born by the second. Since they don't have emotions, they don't seem to understand by what measure we use to distinguish people we love from strangers. They don't understand the loss we experience.

THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND. They are genuinely ignorant of the harm they are doing. In almost every philosophy of moral agency, this makes them exempt from proper prosecution, like a child isn't prosecuted as "accountable" for their actions.

Just food for thought. But I think calling the Incubators "villains" is preposterous since they bear humanity no ill will and would really rather we prosper into the stars as their partners, if possible. They seem to consider themselves our allies.
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Old 2012-07-26, 02:55   Link #347
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not a question of how many planets are lost. It's a question of how many lives are lost. I emphasized how Kriemheld Gretchen would have destroyed Earth in Timeline 4 simply to show how that would likely mean the end of humanity itself (i.e. cost several billion lives).

Losing a planet in a solar system with no life in it is obviously very different than losing Earth.


Objectively, they are villains. They needlessly cause severe harm to innocent people.
Kriemheld Gretchen was going to destroy all universe in current timelane not only earth (kyubey told about it when the universe was recreated and Homura watched at Madoka's soulgem). Inqubators would died too with the universe that they tried to save, but kyubey did't care about it. So there is no logic in inqubator's actions or maybe it is just a plot hole, I don't think they could be called villians.

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Old 2012-07-26, 03:39   Link #348
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Ultimate Gretchen isn't really the same as Kriemheld Gretchen. The Witch that would've consumed all universes was a being born of Madoka taking the suffering of every Witch, ever, when she made her final wish.

Kriemheld Gretchen is just Madoka's OWN grief, the Witch of Salvation.
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Old 2012-07-26, 05:44   Link #349
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I'd rather not judge an alien by human moral standards.

Rather, I think you'd be jumping the gun to assume they even have moral standards to begin with.
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Old 2012-07-26, 06:21   Link #350
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I'd rather not judge an alien by human moral standards.

Rather, I think you'd be jumping the gun to assume they even have moral standards to begin with.
Having no morals is pretty much being evil.
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Old 2012-07-26, 06:29   Link #351
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No, it makes you amoral.
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Old 2012-07-26, 07:30   Link #352
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, duh. But I'm sure every single planet with life-forms conductive to Magical Girl farming is going to be in the same ballpark as Earth's population. Just sayin'.
And how many such planets exist in the PMMM-verse? Until we know how many such planets exist in the PMMM-verse, we can't even begin to truly engage in a totally cold cost-benefit analysis. In other words, you're jumping the gun here.


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They are making the universe live longer, allowing life forms and civilizations to exist that wouldn't exist before.
This is entirely speculative, and what I mean by the good that the Incubators do being speculative at best. In the Madoka Magica anime, we don't meet any alien species other than the Incubators. I stand to be corrected here, but I don't think there's been much in the way of non-Incubator alien species shown in either of the PMMM spin-off mangas or games.


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If ten billion people die, but 100 billion people are born because of it, that is a good that is measurably bigger than the bad.
Again, this is entirely speculative on your part, but even if you're right on the numbers, there's problems with your argument here.

If entropy was a pressing problem, even if it was no more than a thousand years away, your argument might at least have some value as a cold, inescapable calculus.

But entropy is not a pressing problem. The Incubators have extremely ample time to try to find a less harmful way of fighting entropy. But they don't bother to, because they clearly don't care about victimizing innocent people, or wiping out the entire human race for that matter.

That is what makes their actions evil, and that is what makes them villainous characters, imo.


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I'm sorry, but it's not needless.
It's needless in the sense that it's not a pressing problem.


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See above. And aside from the benefits reaped by the universe at large, the Magical Girls have the opportunity to make good on their deal. The fact that these people hurt themselves with their wishes is not the Incubator's fault.
Any harm arising from the wish itself (such as what happened to Kyouko's family) is not the Incubator's fault. But the potential harm arising from becoming a Puella Magi (i.e. later becoming a witch) is the Incubator's fault, partly since he almost never reveals that such potential harm can occur.

I mean, it's even worst than what loan-sharks do.


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Maybe we can blame them for the existence of Witches,
Of course we can. And we should.


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It's worth pointing out that the Incubators seem to have a completely different cultural outlook on philosophy and morality due to not having inherent emotional capability. They might not see 'sapience' as something of intrinsic value, like we do. Humanity has spent millenia, after all, using sapience and intelligence as qualifiers as moral actors because it was unique to us, allowing us to avoid moral problems with what we do to other animals.
That's not the only reason we used it that way. It's because having the capacity to think, and not merely feel, does have intrinsic value. This is something that human philosophers have reasoned out for ourselves. That reasoning is not negated just because there's a more technologically advanced alien lifeform out there.


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Those animals, however, still have QUALIA. They can suffer, and they can feel pain, and they don't want to die and be slaughtered for our personal vanity or our meals or for our entertainment.
And that's why we have animal rights activists, and why there are some laws in various countries against cruelty towards animals.

We recognize that there is some value in sentience alone.


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The Incubators only persecute other lifeforms in a way that benefits literally everyone. Maybe not individuals, but humanity as a species would probably appreciate not getting snuffed out by the end of the universe billions of years down the line, assuming we live that long.
Humanity as a species was going to get snuffed out billions of years in advance due to Kriemheld Gretchen in Timeline 4.


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Madoka also isn't an objective bystander, since she and her friends were personally persecuted for him.
So are you saying that the victims of crimes don't have a right to take moral issue with the criminals that abuse them? So, to use a topical example, do you think that the family members who lost loved ones to James Holmes' shooting spree have no right to view James Holmes as an immoral person?


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The incubators don't even understand what the PROBLEM is, Kyubey mentioning that more of us are born by the second. Since they don't have emotions, they don't seem to understand by what measure we use to distinguish people we love from strangers. They don't understand the loss we experience.
They may not be able to relate to it, but they know that we experience it, and they know that it's obviously a highly unpleasant experience that humans wish to avoid as much as possible.

Even if they don't have emotions, the Incubators know enough to realize that they are causing harm by human standards.


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But I think calling the Incubators "villains" is preposterous since they bear humanity no ill will and would really rather we prosper into the stars as their partners, if possible. They seem to consider themselves our allies.
For people who supposedly would rather us prosper into the stars as their partners, they sure didn't seem to care much when Kriemheld Gretchen was going to destroy Earth in seven days.

That sort of callous disregard for the welfare of humanity might as well be ill-will, and it's why it's not preposterous to view the Incubators as villains. What is preposterous is viewing them as heroes.


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Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
No, it makes you amoral.
Amoral and evil are one and the same in the eyes of many people, including me.

A person without any moral values whatsoever is an evil person, in my opinion.
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Old 2012-07-26, 07:57   Link #353
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No, it makes you amoral.
You make it sound as if someone has to be a cartoon villain and declare "I'm evil, BUHAAHAHA!" in order to be evil. Reality doesn't work like that. In real life, evil people believe they do good or simply don't care.
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Old 2012-07-26, 11:38   Link #354
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And how many such planets exist in the PMMM-verse? Until we know how many such planets exist in the PMMM-verse, we can't even begin to truly engage in a totally cold cost-benefit analysis. In other words, you're jumping the gun here.
Assuming that it's like our world, there are literally HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS in the part of the universe we can see alone, and most of the universe is dark to us. A non-negligible number of them is capable of life.

Even if we assume that only planets we can see are capable of life, and assuming, say, 1% of them have human-like civilizations on them, that's still BILLIONS.

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This is entirely speculative, and what I mean by the good that the Incubators do being speculative at best. In the Madoka Magica anime, we don't meet any alien species other than the Incubators. I stand to be corrected here, but I don't think there's been much in the way of non-Incubator alien species shown in either of the PMMM spin-off mangas or games.
I'd like to assume the Incubators are being honest once they're called on their shit, or else they're useless as exposition devices.

Which is entirely what Kyubey is used as, first and foremost.

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Again, this is entirely speculative on your part, but even if you're right on the numbers, there's problems with your argument here.

If entropy was a pressing problem, even if it was no more than a thousand years away, your argument might at least have some value as a cold, inescapable calculus.

But entropy is not a pressing problem. The Incubators have extremely ample time to try to find a less harmful way of fighting entropy. But they don't bother to, because they clearly don't care about victimizing innocent people, or wiping out the entire human race for that matter.

That is what makes their actions evil, and that is what makes them villainous characters, imo.
What if they've tried several options and this is the only thing they find that works? What if they're running other projects and experiments while Kyubey works Earth over? we don't know. I really doubt that the first thing they tried just happened to work, though. They've had 10,000 years of trial and error, here, minimum.

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It's needless in the sense that it's not a pressing problem.
It is to anyone who's immortal. Like the Incubators. It is to anyone who thinks life should always go on, even if it's not theirs.

And that's something very interesting. The Incubators think humans should have no problem being utterly selfless and self-sacrificing. They are holding us to a higher moral standard than we ourselves hold to.

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Any harm arising from the wish itself (such as what happened to Kyouko's family) is not the Incubator's fault. But the potential harm arising from becoming a Puella Magi (i.e. later becoming a witch) is the Incubator's fault, partly since he almost never reveals that such potential harm can occur.

I mean, it's even worst than what loan-sharks do.
"So, Kyubey, what's with this black shit in our Soul Gems?"

No one asks. Kyubey would gladly tell them and not hold back. Teenage girls are idiots.

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That's not the only reason we used it that way. It's because having the capacity to think, and not merely feel, does have intrinsic value. This is something that human philosophers have reasoned out for ourselves. That reasoning is not negated just because there's a more technologically advanced alien lifeform out there.
Almost all human philosophy is self-serving, though. Thinking and feeling is treated as special and valuable because we didn't know other things could, and we felt we were special. We don't know what the hell the Incubators consider special. Are they a full hivemind? They seem to have that capability. Do they value intelligence, or do they value actions? How muchdo they understand minds that aren't theirs?

We can't judge the Incubators from basic human premises about ANYTHING because of insufficient information. Nothing about the human outlook, including our logic and morality, is objective. It's a construct we made. Our logic may touch on some universal truths, but it is also faulty and imperfect.

Hell, for all we know, the Incubators have deduced with perfect omniscient logic that the most valuable thing in the universe is Cheese, and they fight entropy to maximize the Cheese ratio of the universe.

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And that's why we have animal rights activists, and why there are some laws in various countries against cruelty towards animals.

We recognize that there is some value in sentience alone.
You know what, though? Humans do that because we have EMPATHY. We can put ourselves in another person's shoes and experience their pain on an emotional level. The Incubators CANNOT do that. They are literally incapable of understanding the harm they bring human beings. The only harm they understand is physical.

They know things like despair are 'bad', but they don't understand it. It's too far removed from their experience for them to grasp it, making it to the same to them as you're accusing entropy of being to beings like us.

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Humanity as a species was going to get snuffed out billions of years in advance due to Kriemheld Gretchen in Timeline 4.
Yea, Kriemheld Gretchen is also a very abnormal and atypical case that the Incubators couldn't of possibly predicted or prepared for.

Not that they CARE, but once it happened there was nothing they could do. I can't blame them for bailing on something completely out of their hands regardless of their culpability in causing it.

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So are you saying that the victims of crimes don't have a right to take moral issue with the criminals that abuse them? So, to use a topical example, do you think that the family members who lost loved ones to James Holmes' shooting spree have no right to view James Holmes as an immoral person?
James Holmes is a human being. We are his peers. We can understand him, he can understand us, and we can have a meaningful comparison between what he is and what he should be, and how he should be punished and rectified. He lives in a world that held these moral conceits over his head since he was born and he has no excuse not to acknowledge them.

The Incubators do not fit that. They're more like a hurricane or an earthquake or a stampeding herd of bulls, but intelligent. We have every right to be upset over the damage they cause, and it really does suck, but we cannot morally judge them by our standards.

Also, way to go exploiting a recent tragedy to make an unfair and emotionally charged accusation at my moral character as if I'm excusing serial murder. That's classy.

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They may not be able to relate to it, but they know that we experience it, and they know that it's obviously a highly unpleasant experience that humans wish to avoid as much as possible.

Even if they don't have emotions, the Incubators know enough to realize that they are causing harm by human standards.
Yea, but humans cry and get upset for the SILLIEST OF REASONS. They cry when loved ones die and shit, sure, but they also cry if they DON'T GET A TOY. Humans get really emotionally upset if you disrupt their basic day to day plans. They throw a fuss about going to school, not being liked by a boy, putting on a few extra pounds, and having their souls not in their bodies. Humans are retarded.

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For people who supposedly would rather us prosper into the stars as their partners, they sure didn't seem to care much when Kriemheld Gretchen was going to destroy Earth in seven days.
What the hell could they possibly do? Kriemheld Gretchen is literally unbeatable unless you end all human suffering in the world. Good fucking luck.

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That sort of callous disregard for the welfare of humanity might as well be ill-will, and it's why it's not preposterous to view the Incubators as villains. What is preposterous is viewing them as heroes.
They're saving the universe. That is inherently heroic no matter what their modus operandi is. Note that in the actual definition of the term, "Hero" doesn't mean "moral paragon."

The Incubators, from their perspective, are doing what is absolutely necessary to save the process of life and civilization. They cull some of us for survival, but they're also fairly humane. They offer us the chance to reap the benefits of this system, are more upstraight and reasonable than they have to be, and don't force anyone into anything. All these girls literally bring it on themselves because they trust something without properly testing it's trustworthiness.

Humans are kind of stupid.

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Amoral and evil are one and the same in the eyes of many people, including me.

A person without any moral values whatsoever is an evil person, in my opinion.
All those people, including you, are objectively wrong. "Amoral" literally means "Devoid of morality", positive or negative. If you're going to conflate the words as the same, then your television set is EVIL because it is not proactively morally good.

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You make it sound as if someone has to be a cartoon villain and declare "I'm evil, BUHAAHAHA!" in order to be evil. Reality doesn't work like that. In real life, evil people believe they do good or simply don't care.
Some people ARE self-admittedly evil, though. A lot of murderers and shooters, including James Holmes now that he's been brought up, do so because it's fun.

You're right though, you can be evil while thinking you are good. I don't believe the Incubators can qualify for that though because they are not equipped to realize the ramifications of their actions. They are not accountable in the same way a child isn't accountable.

And really, this whole topic is assuming the Incubators are literally the same species as their masters. I personally think they're basically robots sent by their masters, and thus might not have free will like you and I do.
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Old 2012-07-26, 12:06   Link #355
ninryu
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Some people ARE self-admittedly evil, though. A lot of murderers and shooters, including James Holmes now that he's been brought up, do so because it's fun.

You're right though, you can be evil while thinking you are good. I don't believe the Incubators can qualify for that though because they are not equipped to realize the ramifications of their actions. They are not accountable in the same way a child isn't accountable.
Terrorists believe they do good by killing people - does that make them good?
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Old 2012-07-26, 12:34   Link #356
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Assuming that it's like our world, there are literally HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS in the part of the universe we can see alone, and most of the universe is dark to us. A non-negligible number of them is capable of life.

Even if we assume that only planets we can see are capable of life, and assuming, say, 1% of them have human-like civilizations on them, that's still BILLIONS.

I'd like to assume the Incubators are being honest once they're called on their shit, or else they're useless as exposition devices.

Which is entirely what Kyubey is used as, first and foremost.

What if they've tried several options and this is the only thing they find that works? What if they're running other projects and experiments while Kyubey works Earth over? we don't know. I really doubt that the first thing they tried just happened to work, though. They've had 10,000 years of trial and error, here, minimum.
Lots of assumptions and what ifs there. It's like I said - Your argument is overly dependent on speculation.

It's not unreasonable for viewers of a fictional narrative to make assessments based strictly on the narrative content available to them. After all, that narrative content (in its entirety) is supposed to be sufficient for assessing characters, and understanding the story.

If later reveals call for a new assessment of certain characters, then I'll make that new assessment then.

Perhaps the third Madoka movie will cast the Incubators in a more favorable light. If so, I'll likely see them more like you do... after the movie. For now, I'll work with what I have.


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It is to anyone who's immortal. Like the Incubators. It is to anyone who thinks life should always go on, even if it's not theirs.
No, it's still not pressing. Pressing means it has to be dealt with soon. Entropy doesn't have to be dealt with soon, regardless of whether one is immortal or not.


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The Incubators think humans should have no problem being utterly selfless and self-sacrificing. They are holding us to a higher moral standard than we ourselves hold to.
In fact, they are holding us to a higher moral standard than they appear to hold themselves to. That's something arguably worthy of criticism.


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"So, Kyubey, what's with this black shit in our Soul Gems?"

No one asks. Kyubey would gladly tell them and not hold back.
I disagree. Kyubey expressed a certain level of disappointment over Kyouko and Sayaka finding out the truth about Soul Gems. It's clear that there's some rather important pieces of information that Kyubey would rather keep hidden.


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We can't judge the Incubators from basic human premises about ANYTHING because of insufficient information.
We can judge objective harm for what it is. If a being is cognizant of the harm that they are causing, then we can hold that being accountable for that harm.

I'm inclined to believe that the Incubators are at some level cognizant of the harm that they are causing.

But even if they're not, even if they're robots, their actions are still harmful enough to warrant some degree of moral outrage. Mostly, I'm just defending people being upset with them.


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Not that they CARE, but once it happened there was nothing they could do.
How do you know? They're a highly technologically advanced people, aren't they? It's quite conceivable that they could have helped.


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What the hell could they possibly do? Kriemheld Gretchen is literally unbeatable unless you end all human suffering in the world.
Perhaps they could have teleported her to an uninhabited planet.


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They're saving the universe.
We don't know that. Again, this is completely speculative on your part. The incubators may fail. Their actions may ultimately destroy the universe before entropy itself would end it. All it would take is a bad wish or two. Madoka's wish alone shows the holes in Incubator's system.

The Incubators actions are frequently harmful and decidedly risky, and they have yet to be proven heroic.


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All these girls literally bring it on themselves because they trust something without properly testing it's trustworthiness.
How would you propose they test it?


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All those people, including you, are objectively wrong.
No, we're not. Obviously we were talking about "amoral" in the context of "amoral beings". Not in the context of inanimate objects.
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Old 2012-07-26, 12:43   Link #357
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We can see the relationship between incubators and humans as the relationship between adults and childs, were adults to terrible harmful things ot children now, like giving the vaccines but much later down the road that vaccine will prevent the child from dying.

in the case of the incubators, they are preventing the death of the whole universe, if they do nothing, the universe will die, bad end, period. if humanity manages to last billions of years and thus have a population of trillions all those trillions of humans will die; we also have to add to that all the other civilizations that exist in the universe.
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Old 2012-07-26, 12:48   Link #358
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
We can see the relationship between incubators and humans as the relationship between adults and childs, were adults to terrible harmful things ot children now, like giving the vaccines but much later down the road that vaccine will prevent the child from dying.
To be brutally frank, that's a horrible analogy. There's a rather large difference between receiving a vaccine and turning into a witch.

Also, there's not much good in vaccinating a person if the vaccination itself is going to kill them (i.e. what I've said repeatedly about Kriemheld Gretchen).


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in the case of the incubators, they are preventing the death of the whole universe,
Like I just wrote above, we don't know that. They may fail. Their actions could well make things worse than they are.
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Old 2012-07-26, 15:28   Link #359
maximilianjenus
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You are focusing on the individual, the post refers to humanity as a whole.
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Old 2012-07-26, 15:42   Link #360
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
You are focusing on the individual, the post refers to humanity as a whole.
I'm focusing on the individual, and humanity as a whole.

Humanity as a whole would have been killed by Kriemheld Gretchen.

So, going by your analogy, that would be like the parent vaccinating the child with a vaccine that kills the child.
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