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Old 2012-10-23, 09:02   Link #781
GDB
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) Madoka is slowly starting to crack under the immense pressure (and loneliness) of her new role and position.
I don't understand how this is possible. Her wish made her exist beyond time itself. Past, present, and future, all at once. Unless the movie changes things and she is more like an operator than a force of nature or something...

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8) Homura ultimately prevails and/or Mami changes her mind. Homura continues to try to save Madoka (how Homura tries to do this would be a matter of pure speculation, so I'll leave that aside).
Maybe Kyouko can kill Mami, as a sort of pay-back to episode 10? Save one friend and the world at the cost of another friend.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I just wanted to point out that this fight between Homura and Mami is probably a flashback to a previous timeline, when Homura was still looping through time. I think this is the case because Homura's using guns, and I don't think the Homura from the final timeline would use conventional weapons.
Good observation. She has no time pocket now, only Madoka's bow.
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Old 2012-10-23, 09:17   Link #782
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The most interesting bit for me will be that, how madoka's wich will get "undone", as far as witches speculation goes, I will have to re-check the wording of madoka's wish, but if it was limited to stopping mahou shoujo from becoming witches it's likely witches can appear by other means, just like mahou shoujo were able to be created from beings that are not human girls.
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Old 2012-10-23, 09:40   Link #783
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just like mahou shoujo were able to be created from beings that are not human girls.
What?

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Old 2012-10-23, 11:20   Link #784
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What?

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Old 2012-10-23, 13:24   Link #785
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Old 2012-10-23, 14:34   Link #786
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Old 2012-10-23, 17:04   Link #787
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I don't understand how this is possible. Her wish made her exist beyond time itself. Past, present, and future, all at once. Unless the movie changes things and she is more like an operator than a force of nature or something...
IIRC, there's been some comments from Gen and/or Shinbo suggesting that the third movie might explore the idea that the burden Madoka too upon herself was "too much to expect of a young girl" or something to that effect. I forget the exact quote, but to me it hinted at the idea that the 3rd movie may show that Madoka isn't handling things as well as one might think/expect/want.

Ultimately, this is the main reason I'm running with the narrative idea that I am.
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Old 2012-10-23, 17:44   Link #788
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I still vote that the "too much to handle" thing is referring to something technical, rather than emotional. Her wish has limits in what it allows her to do, but she showed no signs of despair or dissatisfaction with that.
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Old 2012-10-23, 18:02   Link #789
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I still vote that the "too much to handle" thing is referring to something technical, rather than emotional. Her wish has limits in what it allows her to do, but she showed no signs of despair or dissatisfaction with that.
Yeah, the Incubators probably found a loophole or something. Madoka probably can't even feel despair anymore anyway.

In any case, whether it's Madoka or her wish what is failing, that's just the trigger for the conflict. The movie will focus on the other girls, and particularly Homura. This time around it will be up to them to save the day imo.
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Old 2012-10-23, 18:21   Link #790
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Kyoko is now a transfer student and will receive confessions, only to find themselves on the ground as Kyoko kicks them to submission XD
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Old 2012-10-23, 20:17   Link #791
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I still vote that the "too much to handle" thing is referring to something technical, rather than emotional.
Why? The phrase "too much to handle" tends to point to emotional/intellectual stress.

Also, the wording of Madoka's wish was very clear and precise. What loophole could you or Kazu-kun see there being with it?


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Her wish has limits in what it allows her to do,
How so? I didn't see any implicit limits within her wish. The only clear limits that I can see is how her human mind might not be able to emotionally handle what her wish has turned her into. And wouldn't that be fitting, given that's how so many of these Puella Magi wishes have turned out?

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but she showed no signs of despair or dissatisfaction with that.
It was half of a episode! Sayaka wasn't showing any despair or dissatisfaction with her wish either after a mere half of a episode.



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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Yeah, the Incubators probably found a loophole or something. Madoka probably can't even feel despair anymore anyway.
On what basis do you say that?

Madoka showed plenty of emotionality in her final post-wish shared scene with Homura. So Madoka clearly hasn't been turned into some unemotional being. If Madoka is capable of feeling positive emotions then on what basis do you say that she's not capable of feeling negative ones?


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In any case, whether it's Madoka or her wish what is failing, that's just the trigger for the conflict.
I strongly disagree. If it's Madoka herself that is failing, then that makes it a much more personal and emotionally-intense situation for Homura. It would make for a much more compelling narrative, imo.

I'm not sure why you guys seem to be so against the idea.

Honestly, I find this "wish loophole" idea to be really lame in comparison.
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Old 2012-10-23, 20:23   Link #792
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Or Kyubey is retaliating against Madoka. Thus rebellion.

Rebellion against this "crappier" system for Incubators. Thanks for describing it all to Kyubey, Homura.
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Old 2012-10-23, 21:29   Link #793
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Why? The phrase "too much to handle" tends to point to emotional/intellectual stress.

Also, the wording of Madoka's wish was very clear and precise. What loophole could you or Kazu-kun see there being with it?
"Too much to handle" can also refer to taking on more than you can bear competently. It doesn't necessarily have to be tied to one's emotional state, and given that Madoka is literally timeless now, then it's basically impossible for her to change her nature, personality, or emotional state. She's cosmically static.

Also, I've elaborated before. In the production notes for the anime, the Demons/Wraiths want to revive Witches. The audio trailer involves talk about Hitomi, "Her nightmare" and "This is like that Witch concept you described to me once." It's also claimed in the production notes that the Wraiths can possess humans and make them slaves.

If these ideas are used in the movie, then the implication is that demons can possess humans and turn them into pseudo-witches that don't fall under Madoka's authority to remove. They wouldn't be former Magical Girls.

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How so? I didn't see any implicit limits within her wish. The only clear limits that I can see is how her human mind might not be able to emotionally handle what her wish has turned her into. And wouldn't that be fitting, given that's how so many of these Puella Magi wishes have turned out?
Her wish allows her to prevent Witches from being born. If beings of a different nature, but a similar power and intent (let's call these hypothetical pseudo-witches "Warlocks", for example), then Madoka's hands are tied. She's also no longer able to intervene in the universe aside from collecting the souls of dead Magical Girls. Her mind is no longer human, since she now knows "everything that has, can, and ever will happen", and it didn't sadden her whatsoever. Temporal events cannot change her disposition.

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It was half of a episode! Sayaka wasn't showing any despair or dissatisfaction with her wish either after a mere half of a episode.
Sayaka isn't a transcendent, omniscient being who possesses simultaneous atemporal awareness of all possible moments in history.

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On what basis do you say that?

Madoka showed plenty of emotionality in her final post-wish shared scene with Homura. So Madoka clearly hasn't been turned into some unemotional being. If Madoka is capable of feeling positive emotions then on what basis do you say that she's not capable of feeling negative ones?
"If my wish is granted, I absolutely won't fall into despair!"

"You're not just giving us hope...you're becoming Hope itself!"

"Don't you realize how hard this fate is?" "Yes. But no matter what, if someone tells me not to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every single time!"

"I know a miracle can occur! That's what Magical Girls do!"

Madoka possesses omniscence and temporal omnipresence. She has literally become Hope, and her one desire has been granted. She has no beginning or end and is now outside of causality, and is thus no longer subject to If>Then linear causality. If she is not in despair after seeing all possible moments in history, how could she EVER?

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I strongly disagree. If it's Madoka herself that is failing, then that makes it a much more personal and emotionally-intense situation for Homura. It would make for a much more compelling narrative, imo.

I'm not sure why you guys seem to be so against the idea.

Honestly, I find this "wish loophole" idea to be really lame in comparison.
I feel exactly the opposite. I find the idea of having a sequel undermine and retcon an ending just to provide drama to be really shallow and only results in diluting whatever message or point the original work had. Madoka wasn't just running away, and she doesn't deserve to have her accomplishments undermined just because.

However, even if she accomplishes what she set out to do perfectly, she didn't fix EVERYTHING, and there's still plenty of drama to work with. Even Homura basically said that much.

Ultimately the problem I have with your narrative is that in Puella Magi, the actions and intentions of the characters have significant moral and ethical weight, and people more-or-less reap what they sow. Yes, the Witch system is inherently unfair, but as Kyubey said, it was ultimately rooted in human selfishness and the shortcomings of the girls who took the bait. It was, ultimately, Sayaka's refusal to compromise on her absolute ideal, and wanting to save face and have the moral high ground even at the cost of actually accomplishing those moral goals, that caused her to become a Witch.

Madoka's actions are the one thing that gave Gen Urobuchi hope in a secular, nihilistic, meaningless, temporary universe. A heavenly soul that can sing mankind's praises for all time. All else aside, I do not believe that man can take a shit on something that obviously means so much to him, and he's too good of a writer to not understand that undermining a protagonist's accomplishments for the sake of drama is bad writing.

But you don't need to undermine Madoka to show the shortcomings of her accomplishments. You can deconstruct and disillusion her miracle without lessening it. People are still on the joy high of her salvation, but her salvation didn't do everything. You don't need to peel it away, and you don't gain anything from doing so.

At best, it just returns the story to Square One and negates everything that happened. At worst, it insults the audience by negating the worth of their investment by showing a story that can't even live up to what it set out to do. The Reset Button is never a good writing device unless it was always your original intention and you build the story around pressing it. Madoka Magica is not one of those stories. The very concept of it was basically deconstructed with Homura, already.

Madoka took a step forward. Don't drag her backwards for your sadism fetish.
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Old 2012-10-24, 05:23   Link #794
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Wow. This was such an elaborate and structured answer, I've rarely seen anything like this.

Are you into physics or something? Maybe philosophy?

Anyway, since the first 2 movies are mostly behind us now, we gotta wait for the DVD's... anyone got some info, or even an estimate?

Edit : oh, novelist... Gives you very diverse skills and definitely an edge in these kinda places, eh?
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Old 2012-10-24, 08:18   Link #795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Too much to handle" can also refer to taking on more than you can bear competently. It doesn't necessarily have to be tied to one's emotional state, and given that Madoka is literally timeless now, then it's basically impossible for her to change her nature, personality, or emotional state. She's cosmically static.
That really doesn't logically follow. Being "timeless" means that one's emotional state is unchanging? Balderdash. There's no basis for saying that immortality translates into unchanging emotional state. In fact, most immortal characters in fiction do have changing emotional states. I think of the character Eternity from Marvel Comics, who is the living embodiment of the universe itself. His emotional state definitely does change, and he actually is omnipresent and omniscient.


Quote:
Also, I've elaborated before. In the production notes for the anime, the Demons/Wraiths want to revive Witches. The audio trailer involves talk about Hitomi, "Her nightmare" and "This is like that Witch concept you described to me once." It's also claimed in the production notes that the Wraiths can possess humans and make them slaves.

If these ideas are used in the movie, then the implication is that demons can possess humans and turn them into pseudo-witches that don't fall under Madoka's authority to remove. They wouldn't be former Magical Girls.
What you're referring to here isn't what I would consider "a loophole in Madoka's wish".

Madoka's wish was all about saving magical girls from becoming witches. Insofar as she accomplishes that, then her wish has been granted without any loopholes lessening it.

When you talked about "something technical" and Kazu-kun talked about "a loophole in Madoka's wish", I thought the two of you were talking about the very spirit behind it being undone by some mere technicality, like a criminal getting off free due to some legal technicality. That struck me as very lame, and as the ultimate crapping on the ending of the original Madoka anime.

But what you're suggesting here isn't a loophole in Madoka's wish, but rather something entirely outside of it. The Wraiths obviously are going to cause problems, and victimize some humans like witches themselves used to (using such humans as witch-esque puppets is not quite the same as the old magical girl/witch system either). That's entirely beside the point of Madoka's wish.

What you're describing is basically what I initially hoped and expected the 3rd Madoka Movie to be about, since it would respect the ending to the original TV anime. But I just don't see what you're describing as fitting with the notion that "maybe Madoka took on more than she can be reasonably expected to handle", which struck me as saying that her emotional/psychological limitations will come into play here.

Now, maybe whoever made that quote (which I'm admittedly just paraphrasing - If anybody can find the quote itself, I'd greatly appreciate it) just misspoke slightly, or maybe it was slightly mistranslated, or maybe it's even just a troll. But given the tiny tidbits we have to work with, it strikes me as good a place as any to start with in trying to determine what the third movie will be like.


Edit: Ok, I found this.

Ok, going by the specific wording there, it suggests to me that Madoka's role itself (i.e. "the responsibility of the burden she took on") is what is causing the problem. To me, that strongly suggests Madoka having problems coping with the new responsibility entailed with her new role. When we talk about people not being able to handle their "responsibilities", it typically means that their responsibility is too hard for them.



Basically, I don't see how what your describing would manage to convey the idea that "maybe Madoka can't handle the responsibility of the burden she's taken on".


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Sayaka isn't a transcendent, omniscient being who possesses simultaneous atemporal awareness of all possible moments in history.
Nor is Madoka. You don't have to be "aware of all possible moments in history" to simply cover all moments in which magical girls initially became witches. That's like saying you need to know every square inch of ground in the country of America in order to know where all of its national parks are. No, you don't.


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"If my wish is granted, I absolutely won't fall into despair!"

"You're not just giving us hope...you're becoming Hope itself!"

"Don't you realize how hard this fate is?" "Yes. But no matter what, if someone tells me not to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every single time!"

"I know a miracle can occur! That's what Magical Girls do!"
None of this suggests, or even implies, omniscience or temporal omnipresence. Heck, the first line is much the same as what Sayaka said about her own wish.

And Madoka is becoming Hope itself... for magical girls. She is their hope.

She's not offering universal salvation. She never was. She was simply becoming the hope of magical girls.


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Madoka possesses omniscence and temporal omnipresence.
You haven't demonstrated that yet. You're really getting ahead of yourself here.


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If she is not in despair after seeing all possible moments in history, how could she EVER?
Again, she doesn't need to see all possible moments in history in order to see just the ones in which magical girls are about to become witches.


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I feel exactly the opposite. I find the idea of having a sequel undermine and retcon an ending...
Unfortunately, I fear the third movie is going to do that anyway, at least to some degree. If it's going to do so, I'd rather it be based on understandable emotional limitations on Madoka's part than be based on Madoka's wish somehow being a stupid one that included a perilous loophole.

Madoka's key moment in the original TV anime was her Episode 12 wish. That wish was the culmination of Madoka's sad and tragic, but very informative, journey through the world of magical girls while remaining human. The only way Madoka's relative inaction throughout that long journey can be justified is if the culmination of her journey (i.e. her wish) can be shown to be definitively worth it. In other words, the wish itself should be a carefully worded and effective wish that actually accomplishes everything that it is aiming to accomplish.

And so it did, and so I want the wish to remain as such, as otherwise it makes Madoka look very foolish and much worse as a character.

Now, one could reasonably argue that Madoka never thought her wish would create a paradox necessitating her becoming this transcendent being effectively cut off from the rest of humanity. Madoka emotionally descending given that role (which is obviously a lonely one) would not take anything away from the wisdom of her wish.


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Madoka wasn't just running away, and she doesn't deserve to have her accomplishments undermined just because.
I agree, she doesn't. Which is precisely why I wouldn't want her wish to become viewed as a stupid one.


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A heavenly soul that can sing mankind's praises for all time.
Given that she saved magical girls, I find your use of the term "mankind' here a bit odd, to be honest with you.


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All else aside, I do not believe that man can take a shit on something that obviously means so much to him, and he's too good of a writer to not understand that undermining a protagonist's accomplishments for the sake of drama is bad writing.
Oh, I completely agree. And I think that the biggest way to undermine Madoka's accomplishments would be to present her wish in a negative light. Better to show Madoka herself as having emotional struggles that she needs help with (and ultimately may overcome), imo. Such a thing would only humanize her, after all, and that's a good thing, imo.


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Madoka took a step forward. Don't drag her backwards for your sadism fetish.
Sadism fetish? Really?


Not at all. I want to preserve the value of Madoka's character and the ending to the original TV anime, and what is absolutely essential in that regard is preserving the wisdom of her wish.

The specific details of the third movie as you speculate would be fine, but I don't really see how it fits with the quote I alluded to.

In short, I hope that you're more or less right about what the third movie will be about, but I doubt that you are.


And if you're not right, I'd rather the conflict of the third movie be rooted in understandable and sympathetic limitations in Madoka's character than be rooted in Madoka having made a stupid wish (this being what would truly undermine her character, imo).
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Old 2012-10-24, 13:59   Link #796
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That really doesn't logically follow. Being "timeless" means that one's emotional state is unchanging? Balderdash. There's no basis for saying that immortality translates into unchanging emotional state. In fact, most immortal characters in fiction do have changing emotional states.
"Timeless" might not the most accurate term. What AuraTwilight meant isn't that Madoka is immortal, but that she is outside of time, and therefore she's outside of causality. There are a few clues suggesting this:

1) When Madoka's wish is being granted Kyubey tells Homura they're outside of time.

2) Kyubey mentions Madoka's "existence" has no beginning and no end (which again, doesn't mean immortality)

3) The obvious Buddhist references. Breaking out of causality is like the ultimate goal in this religion.

4) We saw Madoka collecting soul gems in the past, and when she tells Homura she's sure they'll meet again it's implied she has been in the future too.


Basically, this means that Madoka is simultaneously in every point in time, past, present, and all possible futures. No only she has seen it all, but she has already been there too. The plot of the third movie... Madoka already knows it, or rather she has already experienced those moments.

Some day Mami and Kyoko and even Homura will die and go with Madoka, but Madoka has already been there, and Mami and Kyoko and Homura and every other magical girl until the end of time is already with Madoka.... as paradoxical as that may seem.

And that's the point. Madoka is a paradox in and of itself.

That's why AuraTwilight said she's "cosmically static". Madoka can't despair because she will never experience something new; she has already experienced every moments of time, until the end of time and beyond... and she's fine.
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Old 2012-10-24, 14:29   Link #797
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Quote:
That really doesn't logically follow. Being "timeless" means that one's emotional state is unchanging? Balderdash. There's no basis for saying that immortality translates into unchanging emotional state. In fact, most immortal characters in fiction do have changing emotional states. I think of the character Eternity from Marvel Comics, who is the living embodiment of the universe itself. His emotional state definitely does change, and he actually is omnipresent and omniscient.
Immortality and atemporality are two entirely different things. Madoka has no beginning or end. She observes all moments of all possible timelines simultaneously. She can be anywhere and anywhen, and IS, simultaneously and constantly. Madoka is no longer a person who experiences 'events'. She is constantly aware of everything and simply impersonates her human self when interacting with lower beings. She possesses awareness of everything that can and will ever happen, and the actions of all people, possibly including herself, in response to those events.

Madoka basically knows literally everything, and from beginning to end of linear time, she in unchanging in her hopeful, messianic nature of saving Magical Girls and insisting that everything will be fine.

And Eternity isn't anywhere near comparable. He doesn't have any control or awareness of time except what is revealed to him by time-related superdeities. He is explicitly said to have power over the present, only.

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What you're referring to here isn't what I would consider "a loophole in Madoka's wish".

Madoka's wish was all about saving magical girls from becoming witches. Insofar as she accomplishes that, then her wish has been granted without any loopholes lessening it.

When you talked about "something technical" and Kazu-kun talked about "a loophole in Madoka's wish", I thought the two of you were talking about the very spirit behind it being undone by some mere technicality, like a criminal getting off free due to some legal technicality. That struck me as very lame, and as the ultimate crapping on the ending of the original Madoka anime.

But what you're suggesting here isn't a loophole in Madoka's wish, but rather something entirely outside of it. The Wraiths obviously are going to cause problems, and victimize some humans like witches themselves used to (using such humans as witch-esque puppets is not quite the same as the old magical girl/witch system either). That's entirely beside the point of Madoka's wish.

What you're describing is basically what I initially hoped and expected the 3rd Madoka Movie to be about, since it would respect the ending to the original TV anime. But I just don't see what you're describing as fitting with the notion that "maybe Madoka took on more than she can be reasonably expected to handle", which struck me as saying that her emotional/psychological limitations will come into play here.

Now, maybe whoever made that quote (which I'm admittedly just paraphrasing - If anybody can find the quote itself, I'd greatly appreciate it) just misspoke slightly, or maybe it was slightly mistranslated, or maybe it's even just a troll. But given the tiny tidbits we have to work with, it strikes me as good a place as any to start with in trying to determine what the third movie will be like.
Well, I define it as a 'loophole' in the sense of creating 'witches' without even making Witches. It's like slipping out of a contract someone else wrote.

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Ok, going by the specific wording there, it suggests to me that Madoka's role itself (i.e. "the responsibility of the burden she took on") is what is causing the problem. To me, that strongly suggests Madoka having problems coping with the new responsibility entailed with her new role. When we talk about people not being able to handle their "responsibilities", it typically means that their responsibility is too hard for them.



Basically, I don't see how what your describing would manage to convey the idea that "maybe Madoka can't handle the responsibility of the burden she's taken on".
Fair enough, but difficulties with responsibility don't always translate to emotional ones. It's still easy to argue that Madoka's simply run into a problem of incompetence. We're gonna simply have to leave this point because it's not specific enough.

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Nor is Madoka. You don't have to be "aware of all possible moments in history" to simply cover all moments in which magical girls initially became witches. That's like saying you need to know every square inch of ground in the country of America in order to know where all of its national parks are. No, you don't.
Madoka herself claims to be aware of all possible moments in history.

"Mm-mm. Because now I know everything that ever has happened...and everything that ever will! I can see all possible timelines, and I can see everything you've done for me. All the crying, and all the pain, and all the obstacles you've went through! It's only becoming what I am now, that I can truly understand what you've done for me. Homura-chan, you really were my best friend!"

You're not going to win this point. Madoka is absolutely omniscient. She says so herself, and Madoka doesn't tell lies.

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None of this suggests, or even implies, omniscience or temporal omnipresence. Heck, the first line is much the same as what Sayaka said about her own wish.

And Madoka is becoming Hope itself... for magical girls. She is their hope.

She's not offering universal salvation. She never was. She was simply becoming the hope of magical girls.
It does imply, however, that she's become a being that has completely transcended the concept of despair. The burden of proof is on you here, not me.

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Unfortunately, I fear the third movie is going to do that anyway, at least to some degree. If it's going to do so, I'd rather it be based on understandable emotional limitations on Madoka's part than be based on Madoka's wish somehow being a stupid one that included a perilous loophole.
No one's saying Madoka's wish is stupid. She made basically a perfect wish....because she didn't try to grab too much. She did solve a horrible problem with the universe. But the Wraiths are trying to get around it through no fault of Madoka's own. Her wish wasn't designed for something occuring in a universe that wasn't even created yet back when she was a human being.

Will the Wraiths succeed? It's up to Homura to foil their plans.

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Madoka's key moment in the original TV anime was her Episode 12 wish. That wish was the culmination of Madoka's sad and tragic, but very informative, journey through the world of magical girls while remaining human. The only way Madoka's relative inaction throughout that long journey can be justified is if the culmination of her journey (i.e. her wish) can be shown to be definitively worth it. In other words, the wish itself should be a carefully worded and effective wish that actually accomplishes everything that it is aiming to accomplish.

And so it did, and so I want the wish to remain as such, as otherwise it makes Madoka look very foolish and much worse as a character.

Now, one could reasonably argue that Madoka never thought her wish would create a paradox necessitating her becoming this transcendent being effectively cut off from the rest of humanity. Madoka emotionally descending given that role (which is obviously a lonely one) would not take anything away from the wisdom of her wish.
You're right. And part of wisdom is knowing that you can't do everything. Part of wisdom and transcendence is letting go what you can let go. Madoka didn't try to fix the whole world; she fixed what she could fix, and she DID. The Wraiths are a problem that did not exist when she made her wish, and it is not the fault of herself or her wish that they exist and they are up to something.

It'd be like if Sayaka wished to heal Kyousuke and then some mugger ran through his house and cut off his hand like that serial killer from "Cartman's Incredible Gift". She bears absolutely no responsibility for what happened afterwards, and as much as it sucks that her wish didn't offer any extra protection, there is fundamentally nothing foolish on her inability to prevent this.

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I agree, she doesn't. Which is precisely why I wouldn't want her wish to become viewed as a stupid one.
And no one is saying that. You're either crafting a strawman or misunderstanding me. You know how you mentioned that Madoka isn't the salvation of all mankind? Yea, a good number of fans think she IS.

Madoka's religiously euphoric aura can be dismantled without lessening, weakening, or debasing her in any way.

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Given that she saved magical girls, I find your use of the term "mankind' here a bit odd, to be honest with you.
Well, Witches and Familiars do prey on normal humans. How many civilians did she save indirectly?

And Madoka ultimately made her wish with a universal Agape for humanity in her heart. Madoka cares about everyone, and would rather everyone be happy. She is an eternal testament to how wonderful humans can be.

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Oh, I completely agree. And I think that the biggest way to undermine Madoka's accomplishments would be to present her wish in a negative light. Better to show Madoka herself as having emotional struggles that she needs help with (and ultimately may overcome), imo. Such a thing would only humanize her, after all, and that's a good thing, imo.
But she's not something that SHOULD be humanized. She had a complete, fulfilled character arc from beginning to end already. Madoka essentially martyred herself and experienced a human 'death' at the end of this arc, becoming a being that is nothing short of divine and becoming a transcendent being that is honestly not the same being she was before.

She is no longer the Madoka Kaname we saw through episodes 1-11. She composes the core of her being, as well as the Madokas of every other timeline, but in this sense she is more like Frederica Bernkastel, instead of Rika Furude.

Y'know, without the colossal dumptruck full of Bitch.

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Some day Mami and Kyoko and even Homura will die and go with Madoka, but Madoka has already been there, and Mami and Kyoko and Homura and every other magical girl until the end of time is already with Madoka.... as paradoxical as that may seem.
Yea, about that...

Mami and Kyoko talked to Madoka before she technically became a deity. She reaped them in the future and got to talk to them before she collected anyone. My god, Madoka's existence is so fucking atemporal that when she left Homura in Episode 12....she probably went to Future-Dead-Homura for ghost lezzings.

There's literally no way for Madoka to be depressed about anything. It's quite literally impossible for her to be apart from her loved ones.

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So you see, Madoka can't despair because she will never experience something new: she has already experienced every moments of time, until the end of time and beyond... and she's fine.
This is pretty much exactly it. Madoka knows absolutely everything, and didn't crack in any way under the pressure of such knowledge. She has infinite awareness of infinite things, and her mind itself became infinite enough that it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

Madoka is in no way a human being as we understand it. She's just empathetic enough to put on a near-perfect act when talking to mortals. That she can become what she is and not lose her 'humanity' makes her even more amazing; it means she has the best of both.
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Old 2012-10-24, 20:13   Link #798
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Old 2012-10-24, 20:24   Link #799
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
"Timeless" might not the most accurate term. What AuraTwilight meant isn't that Madoka is immortal, but that she is outside of time, and therefore she's outside of causality.
Sure, because her wish created a paradox that necessitated that.

Madoka's wish means that she has to save all magical girls "with her own hands".

But the wish turns Madoka herself into a magical girl. As a magical girl, she's fated to either die or become a witch (the Puella Magi system itself leaves no other options). "Death", in any practical sense, is now an impossibility since it would get in the way of Madoka completing her own wish. So that leaves Madoka becoming a witch. But Madoka can't become that because it would also trump her wish, but magical girls can only die or become a witch... and so we have a paradox.

To account for the paradox, Madoka ascends outside of time and destroys her own witch self. Kaname Madoka, the daughter of Junko, also ceases to exist to account for the paradox.

But Madoka now exists outside of time simply to account for the paradox. But there's nothing about Madoka's wish that requires her to be literally omnipresent. Madoka's wish simply requires her to be at every point throughout past, present, and future in which a magical girl is about to become a witch. That's it.


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There are a few clues suggesting this:

1) When Madoka's wish is being granted Kyubey tells Homura they're outside of time.

2) Kyubey mentions Madoka's "existence" has no beginning and no end (which again, doesn't mean immortality)
You're right. It means a bit more than immortality, but it doesn't necessitate omnipresence.


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Basically, this means that Madoka is simultaneously in every point in time, past, present, and all possible futures.
Not necessarily. It just means that she is at every point in time, past, present, and all possible futures, in which a magical girl is about to become a witch. That's it.

Why would Madoka have to be anywhere else? Her wish doesn't seem to require it, and I see no particular reason why she herself would want it.


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Some day Mami and Kyoko and even Homura will die and go with Madoka, but Madoka has already been there, and Mami and Kyoko and Homura and every other magical girl until the end of time is already with Madoka.... as paradoxical as that may seem.

And that's the point. Madoka is a paradox in and of itself.

That's why AuraTwilight said she's "cosmically static". Madoka can't despair because she will never experience something new; she has already experienced every moments of time, until the end of time and beyond... and she's fine.
The way you're describing this is rather paradoxical. So much so that I'm not sure that it makes much sense, especially for a mind that began as a normal human's. And maybe that's exactly what the quote I linked to is all about - perhaps the producers think they went overboard here, and that they should dial it down a bit with the scope of Madoka's new role.



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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Immortality and atemporality are two entirely different things. Madoka has no beginning or end. She observes all moments of all possible timelines simultaneously.
I've already addressed this in my reply to Kazu-kun above, so I'm skipping over most of this.


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Fair enough, but difficulties with responsibility don't always translate to emotional ones. It's still easy to argue that Madoka's simply run into a problem of incompetence. We're gonna simply have to leave this point because it's not specific enough.
I'm not sure what "incompetence" could mean in this context. Could you elaborate on that?


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Madoka herself claims to be aware of all possible moments in history.

"Mm-mm. Because now I know everything that ever has happened...and everything that ever will! I can see all possible timelines, and I can see everything you've done for me. All the crying, and all the pain, and all the obstacles you've went through! It's only becoming what I am now, that I can truly understand what you've done for me. Homura-chan, you really were my best friend!"
Context is important. Madoka is addressing Homura here, IIRC. Madoka's words could simply mean "I know everything that ever has happened... and everything that ever will... concerning you." Given how central a figure Homura is within the Puella Magi world, that much makes sense even if Madoka's new knowledge is largely limited to the Puella Magi world.

Here's a question - Does Madoka know what President Obama's current election strategy is? If so, why would she? What could that possibly have to do with Madoka's new role?


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It does imply, however, that she's become a being that has completely transcended the concept of despair.
So... a person saying a few morale boosting lines to themselves and their comrades means they're incapable of despair?

Madoka doesn't need to be lying here in order to possibly be incorrect. She simply needs to be trying to reassure herself (and sincerely believing her own reassurances), and there's nothing wrong with that.


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And no one is saying that. You're either crafting a strawman or misunderstanding me. You know how you mentioned that Madoka isn't the salvation of all mankind? Yea, a good number of fans think she IS.
On what basis is she the salvation of mankind? I mean, there's loads of people that aren't even going to be indirectly affected by her wish. I mean, even if 1% of all the people who ever lived were magical girls (and that 1% figure is likely high, if anything), there's going to be plenty of people that never came in contact with a magical girl or a witch. Madoka's wish doesn't do anything for them, one way or the other.


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And Madoka ultimately made her wish with a universal Agape for humanity in her heart. Madoka cares about everyone, and would rather everyone be happy. She is an eternal testament to how wonderful humans can be.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this, but we shouldn't blow her wish out of proportion.


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But she's not something that SHOULD be humanized.
Why not? If she's going to be together forever with certain people (as she's saying in the trailer to someone - almost certainly Homura or Sayaka), then wouldn't it help if she had a human side to her?


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She had a complete, fulfilled character arc from beginning to end already.
Well, then why is she even showing up in the third movie? Why would Gen put her in the third movie if he feels that her character arc is complete and fulfilled?

Why would a member of the movie production team even go so far as to say "it (the third movie) is based on the idea that Madoka may not be able to handle the responsibility of the burden she took on at the end of the TV series."?

That definitely doesn't sound like a character with a completed character arc to me. Quite the contrary, it sounds like a character that they want to do more with.


I respect that you have a certain interpretation of Madoka's character that you're fond of. And who knows, maybe the third movie will support that interpretation. But given that quote from a member of the movie production team, I have a hard time seeing how the interpretation that you and Kazu-kun have of Madoka can square with that quote.

Both of you say that Madoka is incapable of feeling suffering anymore. Well then, what will you say if the third movie shows Madoka suffering?
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Old 2012-10-24, 20:47   Link #800
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Sure, because her wish created a paradox that necessitated that.

Madoka's wish means that she has to save all magical girls "with her own hands".

But the wish turns Madoka herself into a magical girl. As a magical girl, she's fated to either die or become a witch (the Puella Magi system itself leaves no other options). "Death", in any practical sense, is now an impossibility since it would get in the way of Madoka completing her own wish. So that leaves Madoka becoming a witch. But Madoka can't become that because it would also trump her wish, but magical girls can only die or become a witch... and so we have a paradox.

To account for the paradox, Madoka ascends outside of time and destroys her own witch self. Kaname Madoka, the daughter of Junko, also ceases to exist to account for the paradox.

But Madoka now exists outside of time simply to account for the paradox. But there's nothing about Madoka's wish that requires her to be literally omnipresent. Madoka's wish simply requires her to be at every point throughout past, present, and future in which a magical girl is about to become a witch. That's it.
But that's not what she says she observes. She knows everything about Homura's life and what she went through for her. She says this herself. She says, in no uncertain words, that she can see everything that's ever happened, and everything that ever will. You're the one contradicting what she says, here.

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Why would Madoka have to be anywhere else? Her wish doesn't seem to require it, and I see no particular reason why she herself would want it.
Random thought. She has no beginning or end...so perhaps any place where she is 'not' would count as an end/beginning to her, spatially and temporally?

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The way you're describing this is rather paradoxical. So much so that I'm not sure that it makes much sense, especially for a mind that began as a normal human's. And maybe that's exactly what the quote I linked to is all about - perhaps the producers think they went overboard here, and that they should dial it down a bit with the scope of Madoka's new role.
It makes sense to me. But I deal with cosmic-level stories all the time in fairness.

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I'm not sure what "incompetence" could mean in this context. Could you elaborate on that?
To put it simple, "Madoka wished to put an end to X. Wraiths perform process Y that is superficially similar to, and creates a result like X, but is not X in any way Madoka is authorized to deal with. Madoka's hands are tied, and is thus incapable of dealing with Y, making her 'incompetent' towards solving the issue."

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Context is important. Madoka is addressing Homura here, IIRC. Madoka's words could simply mean "I know everything that ever has happened... and everything that ever will... concerning you." Given how central a figure Homura is within the Puella Magi world, that much makes sense even if Madoka's new knowledge is largely limited to the Puella Magi world.

Here's a question - Does Madoka know what President Obama's current election strategy is? If so, why would she? What could that possibly have to do with Madoka's new role?
I see no reason to see why Madoka's statements would have this invisible context quantifier.

Also, Madoka is also aware of all wishes Magical Girls make, and seems to have the authority to 'save' them by erasing their having made wishes, if she thinks that is what they want. To prevent from unnecessarily hurting people, she would need knowledge as to what people's wishes actually means.

"I wish Obama wins the election through good policy and honest campaigning." Madoka, in our hypothetical scenario, has the ability to negate this wish if Magical Girl Z gives her permission. Madoka must thus understand where the wish ends and where it begins, so she can undo it's having occurred.

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So... a person saying a few morale boosting lines to themselves and their comrades means they're incapable of despair?

Madoka doesn't need to be lying here in order to possibly be incorrect. She simply needs to be trying to reassure herself (and sincerely believing her own reassurances), and there's nothing wrong with that.
You're the one who has to prove that Madoka is incorrect, then. The anime supports my interpretation at it's face value.

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On what basis is she the salvation of mankind? I mean, there's loads of people that aren't even going to be indirectly affected by her wish. I mean, even if 1% of all the people who ever lived were magical girls (and that 1% figure is likely high, if anything), there's going to be plenty of people that never came in contact with a magical girl or a witch. Madoka's wish doesn't do anything for them, one way or the other.
You'll note I am not one of these fans. It's not my place to defend a viewpoint I do not agree with and think should be deconstructed. Lots of people, however, think she will ultimately bring happiness to all people, such as reaping the souls of all of a Magical Girl's loved ones as well to make her other universe even happier.

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Why not? If she's going to be together forever with people (as she's saying in the trailer to someone - almost certainly Homura or Sayaka), then wouldn't it help if she had a human side to her?
She has a human side. And that human side existed up until the beginning of EPisode 12, and is not effectively frozen in atemporality. Any other character development added on to her life-experience as a sentient being is now non-human and divine. If anything, she will become less human over 'time'.

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Well, then why is she even showing up in the third movie? Why would Gen put her in the third movie if he feels that her character arc is complete and fulfilled?
Because she is quite literally a sentient plot device after becoming a deity. Homura's the main character at this point, and Madoka's primary purpose is to be the foundation of Homura's emotional development and motivation.

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Why would a member of the movie production team even go so far as to say "it (the third movie) is based on the idea that Madoka may not be able to handle the responsibility of the burden she took on at the end of the TV series."?
Again, plot device. It's not Madoka Magica if she doesn't appear, but she's not going to appear unless she is drawn into a conflict. And you cannot bring a deity into a conflict unless you are playing off the limits of that deity.

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That definitely doesn't sound like a character with a completed character arc to me. Quite the contrary, it sounds like a character that they want to do more with.
A character they want to do more wit has a PERSON, or as a PLOT FLAG? There is a difference here. Is Madoka going to rematerialize, have comedic and light-hearted banter with the rest of the cast, and then charge into battle with them? Probably not. Most likely, her imperfection of her task means Homura has to pick up the slack, effectively as her 'prophet', and get involved in a conflict she didn't expect to.

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I respect that you have a certain interpretation of Madoka's character that you're fond of. And who knows, maybe the third movie will support that interpretation. But given that quote from a member of the movie production team, I have a hard time seeing how the interpretation that you and Kazu-kun have of Madoka can square with that quote.
You have one quote that can mean multiple things. We have several quotes, practically a half-hour's worth, that has very little room for argument.

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Both of you say that Madoka is incapable of feeling suffering anymore. Well then, what will you say if the third movie shows Madoka suffering?
Suffering and despair are two entirely different things. Especially when you're a Buddha Bodhisattva. We've never said Madoka couldn't and wouldn't SUFFER. She probably WON'T, but we've never made that claim.
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