AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-02-07, 20:57   Link #1541
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Ship to ship combat ranges should be within the 1 or maybe 2 light second range, though most instances of combat in the show seem to be measured in either kilometers or even meters (clear visual range). The Gamilas missile attack on the Comet Empire fleet seemed to be outside of normal visual range, though still less than a light second away. Probably in the 10,000 to 30,000 km range I'm guessing.

Given the nature of the distances the battles seem to normally be fought at, high speed combat craft seem viable for force projection beyond normal combat ranges, or for either planetary missions, or for operations "beyond the horizon" if one is in the area of a system of planets and moons using the moons to cover the smaller crafts approach.

Yes I know people will say the heat signature will make it impossible to hide, but that requires one to be focusing on a very small area of space to see it. Also that the argument that fighters are worthless due to FTL drives or the expense of the craft and pilots verse just building another battleship which would be more useful. Also the concept that the only reason to have carriers and fighters in naval warfare is because of the two different mediums (air and water), which does not exist when everything is space. (you might have guessed I had this argument at a game once. The conclusion was that space mines were a silly idea, but fighters could be thought of as Fast Attack Craft or Torpedo Boats, as some pre-World War I battleships would sometimes carry small torpedo boats with them to their patrol areas).
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!

Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-02-07 at 21:08.
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-07, 22:31   Link #1542
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Unless you want a vehicle that is multi-mission and can be deployed in any environment. What works in space is not so good in an atmosphere due to drag, etc., so aerodynamics would be required.
The fighters in Yamato are intended for multi-mission roles as we saw examples of the recon plane and Cosmo-Zero being used both in space and on Mars & Earth. So for a multi-mission combat unit it does make sense.
There's no way a parasite fighter could be deployed from orbit and then return to the mothership. There's no way they'd have the fuel or thrust to achieve escape velocity.


Quote:
Squadrons of them being used as combat platforms during a battle (assuming they are fast enough and have proper ECM to avoid being hit by larger vessels) in quantity. Even with long range energy weapons that move near light speed, you can only hit so many targets at once, and a fast one to two man fighter capable of extreme-Delta-V maneuvers would be excellent in close combat I would think.
Why not use missiles then? Why waste human lives and limit it to the Gs of acceleration the human body can sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Given the nature of the distances the battles seem to normally be fought at, high speed combat craft seem viable for force projection beyond normal combat ranges, or for either planetary missions, or for operations "beyond the horizon" if one is in the area of a system of planets and moons using the moons to cover the smaller crafts approach.
A parasite is going to have a low specific impulse, low fuel, and low delta v that ensures it won't arrive much sooner than the mothership. Plus it's necessarily limited to 10Gs of acceleration or less due human physiology.

Quote:
Yes I know people will say the heat signature will make it impossible to hide, but that requires one to be focusing on a very small area of space to see it.
That's incorrect; you could array multiple senors on the ship that are active all the time; they'd easily pick up a space ship against the near zero temperature of space.


Quote:
Also the concept that the only reason to have carriers and fighters in naval warfare is because of the two different mediums (air and water), which does not exist when everything is space. (you might have guessed I had this argument at a game once. The conclusion was that space mines were a silly idea, but fighters could be thought of as Fast Attack Craft or Torpedo Boats, as some pre-World War I battleships would sometimes carry small torpedo boats with them to their patrol areas).
I understand the idea of a missile bus being useful in space combat, but it'd be much more efficient if they were actually missiles themselves, for the reasons outline. A plane designed for atmospheric flight though would be terrible for space missions, because it'd have so much excess weight that doesn't benefit it's operation as a space fighter.


I should point out that I'm not criticizing Yamato for being unrealistic; it's Science Fantasy, I know the combat in is bullshit so it can do whatever it wants as long as it looks cool. I'm just talking about the practicality of space combat in the world we live in.

Anyways some other thoughts. I kinda like how they seemed to incorporate some elements of the USN's modernization of their Iowas in the 1980s. Really like the VLS cells in what used to be the funnel.

Also saw something about an experimental Alcuberrie drive. I like that idea, but the problem is the current models for the warp drive have it at only 10C, so it'd take about 15,000 years for it to reach Gamilas. I do like the idea though of the UN exceeding that, accidentally sending off a probe through warp that would collide with and obliterate one of Gamilas' colonies.
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-07, 23:36   Link #1543
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
The Alcuberrie Drive would be an interesting nod to modern day understanding of FTL travel possibilities. So far I don't think there has been any real mention of it in the show, though in Yamato III it would go a long way into explaining how a group of pioneers managed to arrive at Barnard's Star before Yamato should have been launched (pre-Wave Motion Engine times). Only happenstance has that ship's design as being remotely similar to a Football shaped vessel with a ring.

Perhaps if the production team that works on Yamato 2199 ever decide to tackle that story again, they might use such an experimental drive. Or they will come up with a more realistic timeline that allows for a civilian ship equipped with a Wave Motion Engine to leave Earth after Yamato is launched.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-08, 00:20   Link #1544
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Actually a friend and I had that idea that Earth could incite a war by accidentally slamming its first FTL probe into a planet; which obliterates it and damages that Federation's economy.

EDIT: Also anyone notice how Yamato is sort of the Moses story?
Spoiler for This is a spoiler for the original show, it may not happen this way in this version:

Last edited by Scherzo09; 2013-02-08 at 00:41.
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-08, 03:13   Link #1545
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzo09 View Post
There's no way a parasite fighter could be deployed from orbit and then return to the mothership. There's no way they'd have the fuel or thrust to achieve escape velocity.
Speaking strictly of craft seen in Yamato 2199, it is clear the CosmoZero and CosmoFalcons are moving faster than Mach 37 (escape velocity or 25,022 mph). They have to be to pull off the Pluto mission and go from Charon to Pluto in the short time we see them travel from their drop off point to their patrol of the surface of Pluto. Those fighters are portrayed as being damn fast.

Clearly they are nuclear powered and may be some form of high-yield ion engine.
Much like the current NASA ion drives that have a lifespan of 43,000 hours with very little fuel compared to a rocket motor.
Then there are the NASA plasma drives which are still only experimental, but show considerable promise for high-thurst, long-life technology for spaceflight.

I'm not saying we have the techology to mimic SBY 2199 right now, but by the year 2199, what we now think of as only Science Fiction very well could become fact.
With science it is unwise to say "NEVER" or call something "IMPOSSIBLE."

Quote:
Why not use missiles then? Why waste human lives and limit it to the Gs of acceleration the human body can sustain?
Missiles lack the ability to perform multiple missions that would require human action.
G-limits could easily be overcome through advanced compensators, and/or antigravity systems since G-force is dependent on gravity, mass, and velocity. Nullify or counteract the force of gravity and you could in theory counteract the effect of G-forces. In Space Battleship Yamato 2199, this is obviously the case since the fighters are traveling at incredible speeds that without some type of g-force compensator the pilots would be mush in the cockpit.

Quote:
A parasite is going to have a low specific impulse, low fuel, and low delta v that ensures it won't arrive much sooner than the mothership. Plus it's necessarily limited to 10Gs of acceleration or less due human physiology.
See post above.
Also, nuclear powered craft are not limited by fuel in the traditional aircraft sense or rocket motor. Look at the new ion engines of today or nuclear electric engines developed by NASA. Now, take that technology and advance it 100 years into the future.

Quote:
That's incorrect; you could array multiple senors on the ship that are active all the time; they'd easily pick up a space ship against the near zero temperature of space.
Assuming a fighter doesn't have ECM capable of masking it.
We already have technology to mask heat sources of considerable temperature (like the heat-masking unit on the M1A1 Abrams tank). A highly advanced version of this could make a fighter seem invisible, especially in space where all a fighter need do is set its course, then thrust for the required number of seconds to build up the desired speed, then cut the engines.

Quote:
I understand the idea of a missile bus being useful in space combat, but it'd be much more efficient if they were actually missiles themselves, for the reasons outline. A plane designed for atmospheric flight though would be terrible for space missions, because it'd have so much excess weight that doesn't benefit it's operation as a space fighter.
Again, assuming that technology doesn't change for 100+ years.
A fighter in Yamato 2199 is probably not made of the same alloys, use the same type of engines, nor fuel as a rocket ship of today. It must be assumed that space fighter technology is feasible since the USAF is pursuing it.


Quote:
I should point out that I'm not criticizing Yamato for being unrealistic; it's Science Fantasy, I know the combat in is bullshit so it can do whatever it wants as long as it looks cool. I'm just talking about the practicality of space combat in the world we live in.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it fantasy (that's insulting to the show IMHO), but it is Space Opera, so I agree it does take considerable creative license. Then again, we don't know what kinds of technologies will be around in 2199, nor do we have any clue what aliens science may have discovered that we don't know, or have gotten wrong. Perhaps Gamillas is supposed to have science far advanced of our thinking and thus space combat with single manned fighter units is standard practice.

As for what will be practical in our world, we're still far too primitive a civilization to know what is or what is not possible for future space warfare. Being a Kardeshev Type-0 civilization, we need to focus on actually getting off Earth and developing a realistic means of space propulsion to achieve Type-1 status.
As you said, at this point, space fighters are nothing more than Science Fiction.

Quote:
Anyways some other thoughts. I kinda like how they seemed to incorporate some elements of the USN's modernization of their Iowas in the 1980s. Really like the VLS cells in what used to be the funnel.

Also saw something about an experimental Alcuberrie drive. I like that idea, but the problem is the current models for the warp drive have it at only 10C, so it'd take about 15,000 years for it to reach Gamilas. I do like the idea though of the UN exceeding that, accidentally sending off a probe through warp that would collide with and obliterate one of Gamilas' colonies.
That is an interesting idea, and I second that such an 'accdent' could have set off the war and look like an attack by Earth at the same time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Ship to ship combat ranges should be within the 1 or maybe 2 light second range, though most instances of combat in the show seem to be measured in either kilometers or even meters (clear visual range). The Gamilas missile attack on the Comet Empire fleet seemed to be outside of normal visual range, though still less than a light second away. Probably in the 10,000 to 30,000 km range I'm guessing.
I agree. Considering how close the craft appear to be when flying in formation (I assume for better defensive arcs of fire for mutual protection) combat speeds in fleet-to-fleet engagements can't be that fast. The Battle of Pluto (first one) seems to indicate just how dangerous high speed flight through a fleet is when we see Gamillas ships destroying each other as Yukikaze zips through their formation at what appears to be dangerous velocity.

Quote:
Given the nature of the distances the battles seem to normally be fought at, high speed combat craft seem viable for force projection beyond normal combat ranges, or for either planetary missions, or for operations "beyond the horizon" if one is in the area of a system of planets and moons using the moons to cover the smaller crafts approach.
Agreed, pre-deployment before a fleet engagement seems quite feasible using the techology of both Gamillas and Earth circa 2199.

Quote:
Yes I know people will say the heat signature will make it impossible to hide, but that requires one to be focusing on a very small area of space to see it. Also that the argument that fighters are worthless due to FTL drives or the expense of the craft and pilots verse just building another battleship which would be more useful. Also the concept that the only reason to have carriers and fighters in naval warfare is because of the two different mediums (air and water), which does not exist when everything is space. (you might have guessed I had this argument at a game once. The conclusion was that space mines were a silly idea, but fighters could be thought of as Fast Attack Craft or Torpedo Boats, as some pre-World War I battleships would sometimes carry small torpedo boats with them to their patrol areas).
I think much of that grew out of the Star Wars vs Star Trek nonsense on the web.
Both sides attacked one another over the use of shuttles (in Star Trek) and space fighters (in Star Wars) in cosmic warfare.
Personally, if the US mllitary sees it as viable for future warfare, then there is clearly a tactical, strategic, or force projection role they see for manned and/or unmanned space fighter units.
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-08, 19:39   Link #1546
August138
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Francisco, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzo09 View Post
Also anyone notice how Yamato is sort of the Moses story?
Spoiler for This is a spoiler for the original show, it may not happen this way in this version:
Spoiler for This is a spoiler for the original show, it may not happen this way in this version:
__________________
August Ragone
Author/Translator/Special Features Producer
Blog: The Good, The Bad, and Godzilla
August138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-08, 21:28   Link #1547
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Okay this will be interesting:

http://yamato2199.net/news.html#dreamteam

Quote:
Hironobu Kageyama: Chapter V Ending Theme
JAM Project: Ending Theme Chapter VI
Bringing in the older heavy hitters?

Also does it suggest that the TV version of the show will have a slightly different opening theme sung by this "Yamato - Allstars" grouping. Or just the regular theme song sung by all of them?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-08, 23:42   Link #1548
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Speaking strictly of craft seen in Yamato 2199, it is clear the CosmoZero and CosmoFalcons are moving faster than Mach 37 (escape velocity or 25,022 mph). They have to be to pull off the Pluto mission and go from Charon to Pluto in the short time we see them travel from their drop off point to their patrol of the surface of Pluto. Those fighters are portrayed as being damn fast.

Clearly they are nuclear powered and may be some form of high-yield ion engine.
Much like the current NASA ion drives that have a lifespan of 43,000 hours with very little fuel compared to a rocket motor.
Then there are the NASA plasma drives which are still only experimental, but show considerable promise for high-thurst, long-life technology for spaceflight.

I'm not saying we have the techology to mimic SBY 2199 right now, but by the year 2199, what we now think of as only Science Fiction very well could become fact.
With science it is unwise to say "NEVER" or call something "IMPOSSIBLE."
Ion Engines also have shit acceleration. You're not gonna have that on a fighter craft, you'd need to have a chemical rocket to have the rates of acceleration useful for fighter craft, which exhaust their fuel in a matter of minutes, especially in a craft as small as a Space Fighter would have to be.

If anything, Space Destroyers or BBs would be better served using KEWs or 'Rods of God' from space to provide ground support for planetary actions, since that best utilizes the advantage of being in space.



Quote:
Missiles lack the ability to perform multiple missions that would require human action.
In space, this is the attack profile for taking on another ship: fly towards it, avoid CIWS firing arcs, and ram into it. That isn't something a missile can't do.

Quote:
G-limits could easily be overcome through advanced compensators, and/or antigravity systems since G-force is dependent on gravity, mass, and velocity. Nullify or counteract the force of gravity and you could in theory counteract the effect of G-forces. In Space Battleship Yamato 2199, this is obviously the case since the fighters are traveling at incredible speeds that without some type of g-force compensator the pilots would be mush in the cockpit.
Well sure, but you're admitting that this would require fictional Science Fantasy or very very Soft Science Fiction phlebtonium to work. Once we prove that FTL is actually possible, then we can start talking about 'anti-gravity' fields at all, but even if they were theoretically possible, there's still the issue of why go through the costs of mounting them on fighter craft when you can achieve the same results from missiles from Capital Ships or Frigates/Destroyers.


Quote:
Also, nuclear powered craft are not limited by fuel in the traditional aircraft sense or rocket motor. Look at the new ion engines of today or nuclear electric engines developed by NASA. Now, take that technology and advance it 100 years into the future.
Nuclear engines don't have a limitless supply of energy; they're just more efficient. Also they're very heavy, and have a very slow rate of acceleration. They aren't something you'd mount on a fight craft.



Quote:
Assuming a fighter doesn't have ECM capable of masking it.
We already have technology to mask heat sources of considerable temperature (like the heat-masking unit on the M1A1 Abrams tank). A highly advanced version of this could make a fighter seem invisible, especially in space where all a fighter need do is set its course, then thrust for the required number of seconds to build up the desired speed, then cut the engines.
And where would the heat go? Eject it into space and you can follow the heat trail (that rocket's constantly generating heat). Try hiding it in heat sinks? (which would mean killing your engine anyways) You'd fry inside your fighter after a few minutes.

This pretty definitely shows how stealth in space is impossible.



Quote:
Again, assuming that technology doesn't change for 100+ years.
A fighter in Yamato 2199 is probably not made of the same alloys, use the same type of engines, nor fuel as a rocket ship of today. It must be assumed that space fighter technology is feasible since the USAF is pursuing it.
Having enough delta-v to change your altitude and inclination doesn't make your vehicle a space fighter. The X-37 is just for putting experimental avionics into zero g environments and bringing them back. Maybe it's designed for surveillance, maybe it's designed to shoot down satellites, but that's totally irrelevant. We're talking about parasite fighters launched from capital ships. If you have a giant, armed ship in an orbit near a satellite you want to destroy (or another ship, for that matter), launching a smaller craft is a waste when you can just shoot a missile or KEW or laser at it from the mothership.


Quote:
I wouldn't go so far as to call it fantasy (that's insulting to the show IMHO), but it is Space Opera, so I agree it does take considerable creative license. Then again, we don't know what kinds of technologies will be around in 2199, nor do we have any clue what aliens science may have discovered that we don't know, or have gotten wrong. Perhaps Gamillas is supposed to have science far advanced of our thinking and thus space combat with single manned fighter units is standard practice.
Space Opera is fantasy with lasers; anyone who can't admit that is just in denial. This isn't to diminish the show; I love the universe it creates and how the things operate within it. But despite all the nods to reality and worldbuilding, this is fantasy. It's a show about taking the rusting hulk of a 250 year old battleship and turning it into a space ship. This requires a lot of Willing Suspension of Disbelief. And I'm all for that, I love Space Fighters in fictional roles. But it's just that, fictional, it's just not at all practical.

Quote:
As for what will be practical in our world, we're still far too primitive a civilization to know what is or what is not possible for future space warfare. Being a Kardeshev Type-0 civilization, we need to focus on actually getting off Earth and developing a realistic means of space propulsion to achieve Type-1 status.
As you said, at this point, space fighters are nothing more than Science Fiction.
The way space combat will be fought is pretty much hard coded into the way the universe's physics work. Someday we might have enough excess to piss away delta v into space carriers and fighters, but it'll never be more energy efficient than battleships shooting missiles and KEWs at each other.


Quote:
I think much of that grew out of the Star Wars vs Star Trek nonsense on the web.
Both sides attacked one another over the use of shuttles (in Star Trek) and space fighters (in Star Wars) in cosmic warfare.
Personally, if the US mllitary sees it as viable for future warfare, then there is clearly a tactical, strategic, or force projection role they see for manned and/or unmanned space fighter units.
It's more about USAF moving into an orbital battlespace, primarily A-SAT. That isn't the same as interplanetary or parasitic space fighters.


Anyways, probably don't want to dwell on this anymore since this is beside the point of Yamato's universe. Do you think the Ditz girl is going to be killed off in episode 11?
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 00:18   Link #1549
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
There are always possibilities. New technologies make present day tactics irrelevant or even useless. Things that would be considered impossible or at least impractical become common accepted tactics.

In 1813 who would have thought it was a possible to send a small number of flying machines across the ocean to vaporize cities? Yet by 1999 that was possible. It is now 2013, who knows what will be considered possible in 2199?

It may remain entirely impractical or impossible. But than again, we are we to judge?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 00:25   Link #1550
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There are always possibilities. New technologies make present day tactics irrelevant or even useless. Things that would be considered impossible or at least impractical become common accepted tactics.

In 1813 who would have thought it was a possible to send a small number of flying machines across the ocean to vaporize cities? Yet by 1999 that was possible. It is now 2013, who knows what will be considered possible in 2199?

It may remain entirely impractical or impossible. But than again, we are we to judge?
It's just highly doubtful that the best way to fight interplanetary war is with parasite fighters; for all the reasons which show KEWs and Lasers are more effective.

Anyways, is it looking like we're getting a sort of Zeon-esqe deep inside look at how Gamilas works in this series? That's something I've rather liked about the show so far.
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 00:32   Link #1551
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
As for Ditz. We know from the trailer she'll be in a dogfight with Yamamoto. From stills it suggests they send her on her way with a care package like Kodai did with the captured pilot in the original series.

However, at this time...having not seen the full episode...I don't know what the sequance of events is. We know Ditz says to tell Yamamoto she's a great pilot in the trailer, so the guess is that they have the dogfight and later send Ditz on her way to someplace. Since I doubt her fighter has a FTL drive of any sort, one would assume they drop her off near a "known" Gamilas base, or leave her someplace were she might be picked up as oppose to just someplace in deep space.

Since she is the Admiral's daughter, one would assume they wouldn't add that plot point just to off her since that could have major implications down the road. Especially if she has a record of what happened to her ship from Yamato's radar array.

The rest of the Gamilas seem to have things going on. We get Dommel's return from the front lines (which turns out to be "barbarians" from the White Comet Empire). We see his wife. Dessler calls Starsha at somepoint. There is Frakken the Wolf who hunts Yamato in his submarine. There is Celestria who seems to be the propaganda minister. And likely some other internal issues in the Empire (as not everyone can be happy of Dommel's popularity). Plus we already seem to have some politics going on between various Admirals and Generals seen in episodes 8 and 10. Plus we have Goer still.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!

Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-02-09 at 01:07.
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 01:45   Link #1552
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
It seems like a big deal is Gamilas' population demographics, with the conquered races feeling tired of behind oppressed. I wonder if Yamato's arrival in the Large Magellanic Cloud would incite a civil war.

Also I'm glad their introducing the players in the galactic scene off the bat, instead of just inventing them as they go along.

Anyone else think Ditz's space fighter looks like an Me-262?
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 01:51   Link #1553
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Considering the figher is designated as "DWG262" that is likely intentional. But then the German stylings in this version are a little more direct than the original.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 02:11   Link #1554
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
The Flying wing Fighter-Bombers in episode 1 looked like Go-229s as well.

Do you think there'll be more UNCF vessels later on in the series?
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 02:20   Link #1555
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzo09 View Post
Ion Engines also have shit acceleration. You're not gonna have that on a fighter craft, you'd need to have a chemical rocket to have the rates of acceleration useful for fighter craft, which exhaust their fuel in a matter of minutes, especially in a craft as small as a Space Fighter would have to be.
Sure Ion engines suck right now, but geez give the technology time to mature. It is still only in its infancy.

A chemical rocket would be required with today's tech, sure, but we're talking about projecting our technology some 186 years into the future.
Considering what our technology was 186 years ago, you can see how the technological curve would certainly produce far better space propulsion than we have now.
Unless we assume that our current scientific knowledge will stagnate and we will not have any future 'break throughs.'
I hope that's not the case.

Quote:
If anything, Space Destroyers or BBs would be better served using KEWs or 'Rods of God' from space to provide ground support for planetary actions, since that best utilizes the advantage of being in space.
Assuming you want to inflict massive damage on the target, but surgical strikes and tactical combat to repel planetary defenders (like fighters) would require some form of countermeasure. Missiles alone, even AI guided types, may not be enough. UAVs, might be able to fill both roles (missile and fighter). I can see unmanned fighters playing a large role in space combat, assuming they don't get surpassed by something else or prove to be too dangerous for continued military application in a space environment.

Quote:
In space, this is the attack profile for taking on another ship: fly towards it, avoid CIWS firing arcs, and ram into it. That isn't something a missile can't do.
True, and I can see missile applications for that as well.
However, since military combat goals have a wide range of requirements already, I can imagine that gamut being expanded even further for space combat. That will require a multi-mission combat unit such as a space fighter IMO.

Quote:
Well sure, but you're admitting that this would require fictional Science Fantasy or very very Soft Science Fiction phlebtonium to work. Once we prove that FTL is actually possible, then we can start talking about 'anti-gravity' fields at all, but even if they were theoretically possible, there's still the issue of why go through the costs of mounting them on fighter craft when you can achieve the same results from missiles from Capital Ships or Frigates/Destroyers.
Admitting?
I'm not arguing with you.
I thought we were just having a fun little discussion about the pros and cons of space fighter use?
Did I miss something?

As I said, under current theories, sure, a workable space fighter concept would be very difficult without the ability to protect the pilot from the g-forces involved.
Space fighters would, in theory, make for a very inexpensive way to defend a spacecraft, and/or project force without risking a very expensive Capital ship or escort. It is why we have aircraft carriers in the first place. It allows us to project force to anywhere on Earth via an oceanborne airport. The same military goal could be achieved with space fighters. Granted the science involved in actually getting such a weapon system to work would be difficult by today's standards, but what about 200 years from now?

Quote:
Nuclear engines don't have a limitless supply of energy; they're just more efficient. Also they're very heavy, and have a very slow rate of acceleration. They aren't something you'd mount on a fight craft.
Well of course they don't.
However, they do provide a high thrust-to-weight ratio compared to current chemical rocket motors and improved/more-advanced versions could provide the necessary propulsion for the kind of small, one-or-two man, high speed fighter we see so often in science fiction.

Quote:
And where would the heat go? Eject it into space and you can follow the heat trail (that rocket's constantly generating heat). Try hiding it in heat sinks? (which would mean killing your engine anyways) You'd fry inside your fighter after a few minutes.
Been to Atomic Rocket many times over the years.
Interesting website, but I disagree with many of his assumptions about the limitations of future science and/or technology.
Besides a gent over at ScienceBlogs points out the flaws in their article on stealth in space being impossible.
As most people there stated in the comments, the speeds being traveled would make IR detection pointless since the heat particles aren't moving faster than your craft is, you'd be long gone from the point of detection by the time any sensor saw the heat to begin with.
Add to this the new technology of infrared masking of the IR wave form and you start seeing that stealth in space is actually possible without violating any laws of physics or thermodynamics.
Hell, cooling baffles that disperse the heat particles out the exhaust will cause rapid cooling in the frigid temperatures of space making the heat signature considerably smaller and cooler even for a plasma engine generating 572-662K (Kelvin) of heat for 1000 seconds to achieve maximum thrust (and that's with NASA's VASIMR of today).
However, you are absolutely correct about any rocket engine using chemical thrust, and a nuclear rocket would be like a spotlight in a dark room. It generates heat of 2400-2600K (exhaust from hydrogen), so it is considerably hotter than a plasma or ion drive and thus dissipation time is longer making detection much greater.

Now imagine miltitary technology of 186 years from now after the current crop of Ion and Plasma drives are refined (assuming they're still in use and haven't been replaced by something better). Assuming the military is attempting to limit detection for space warfare, they are going to be looking for both cooler exhaust and reduced light from the emission.

Granted the light from the exhaust might be seen (depending on the propulsion system), but without the IR wave stealth does become possible.
In other words, use an electronic countermeasure that masks infrared since that is what is being detected by passive sensors. The heat generated by the spacecraft doesn't matter to an infrared sensor, it is the wave signal that is picked up. Jam that and the infrared sensor will not see the heat at all, thus masking the vehicle.

Quote:
Having enough delta-v to change your altitude and inclination doesn't make your vehicle a space fighter. The X-37 is just for putting experimental avionics into zero g environments and bringing them back. Maybe it's designed for surveillance, maybe it's designed to shoot down satellites, but that's totally irrelevant. We're talking about parasite fighters launched from capital ships. If you have a giant, armed ship in an orbit near a satellite you want to destroy (or another ship, for that matter), launching a smaller craft is a waste when you can just shoot a missile or KEW or laser at it from the mothership.
No, but it is a start, and that was my point.
The idea that only KEW, missile, or laser weaponry is feasable in space warfare from Capital ships is short sighted in my opinion. Since we haven't seen the application of any of these systems in practice, it is all speculation at this point.
Using the argument you're making, a missile or KEW becomes useless if energy-weapons traveling at near light-speed are being used since no missile or KEW is going to be able to dodge/evade such a weapon if the weapon can be seen coming. Both would suffer from the same problems as a space fighter would.

Quote:
Space Opera is fantasy with lasers; anyone who can't admit that is just in denial. This isn't to diminish the show; I love the universe it creates and how the things operate within it. But despite all the nods to reality and worldbuilding, this is fantasy. It's a show about taking the rusting hulk of a 250 year old battleship and turning it into a space ship. This requires a lot of Willing Suspension of Disbelief. And I'm all for that, I love Space Fighters in fictional roles. But it's just that, fictional, it's just not at all practical.
I think you missed my point.
Science Fantasy is actually a genre in and of itself.
Michael Moorecock's Hawkmoon series, China Mieville's Embassy Town (and other books), John Carter of Mars, or Star Wars would classify as such.
Space Opera, at least attempts to incorporate scientific theory into it (though again with varying degrees of reality mixed with fantasy, as you said).
Like Halo, Star Trek, Avatar, Alien series, Flash Gordon, or Space Battleship Yamato 2199.
Science Fiction (Hard SF) would be something more like Clarke's 2001 or Heinlein's "Have Suit will travel."
In other words, there are varying degrees away from Hard SF with Hard SF having almost no deviation from current scientific theory, Space Opera having some, and Science Fantasy having really no scientific basis whatsoever.

Quote:
The way space combat will be fought is pretty much hard coded into the way the universe's physics work. Someday we might have enough excess to piss away delta v into space carriers and fighters, but it'll never be more energy efficient than battleships shooting missiles and KEWs at each other.
Yes it is hard coded into the physics of the universe, however, our understanding of those physics continues to advance daily.
I'm not so quick to dismiss the concept of space fighters in favor of KEWs or missiles. I do believe all will be used in conjunction with each other as the mission parameters require in future combat.

Quote:
It's more about USAF moving into an orbital battlespace, primarily A-SAT. That isn't the same as interplanetary or parasitic space fighters.
I didn't say it was.
I was referring to the concept of a space fighter system period, not the X-37.

Quote:
Anyways, probably don't want to dwell on this anymore since this is beside the point of Yamato's universe. Do you think the Ditz girl is going to be killed off in episode 11?
Yeah but it is a fun discussion don't you think?
Anyways, you are probably right, we shouldn't derail this too far into a private conversation about space fighters.

I hope Melda (?) survives. She is an interesting character that I wouldn't mind seeing develop further into the series. Maybe even see her become another love interest for Kodai? Just a thought I'm throwing out there.
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 02:22   Link #1556
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Unless Yamato starts designing some carried craft or they have some flashback, I doubt it. At least until they return to Earth. Or somehow some humans managed to get their hands on a captured Gamilas warship and are using that in parallel with Yamato. Or stick a captured Gamilas Wave Motion Engine into an older Earth design.

Since it took them a year to build Yamato (a newly built ship) with a wave motion engine and they had to get at least one part imported from Iscandar, it is doubtful they would have a second ship ready until Yamato is at least on her way home. If they can figure out how to build a Wave Motion Core of their own design in the interim.

If they follow up with another series, than sure there should be a lot of new Earth ships after Yamato gets back home.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 02:28   Link #1557
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Apparently there's a new version of the theme that'll be coming out.

In this series is it stated that it's a new ship? I kinda liked the idea that it wasn't literally the hull of the original Yamato, but merely used the facade of the wreck to hide wholly new ship.

Well it seems with what Kaoru is doing, the administration back on earth doesn't have much faith in the Yamato finding a Radiation Scrubber device and seems to still be continuing the Izumo plan as a contingency. That makes me think they might have more FTL ships waiting in the wings.
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 02:37   Link #1558
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If they follow up with another series, than sure there should be a lot of new Earth ships after Yamato gets back home.
I hope they do the 2nd series.
The EDF fleet would look really awesome using the new animation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzo09 View Post
Apparently there's a new version of the theme that'll be coming out.

In this series is it stated that it's a new ship? I kinda liked the idea that it wasn't literally the hull of the original Yamato, but merely used the facade of the wreck to hide wholly new ship.

Well it seems with what Kaoru is doing, the administration back on earth doesn't have much faith in the Yamato finding a Radiation Scrubber device and seems to still be continuing the Izumo plan as a contingency. That makes me think they might have more FTL ships waiting in the wings.
I agree, I didn't like that in the original either (with the Yamato 2199 actually being the original WWII warship).

Spoiler for just in case anyone thinks this should be hidden:
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 02:54   Link #1559
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
It was stated that the wreck on the surface was camouflage so the Gamilas spy planes and ships wouldn't notice the construction of a large warship near the planet's surface. It was up that far so it could be launched safety without too much risk to the underground cities (cause they have no idea just what the engine would do, nor how much of an explosion it would have if it failed).

Side note: in this version, where did Kirishama dock? In an underground berth of some kind. Some hard dock, or wheels? I doubt they have a giant pool of water for her to land in anymore. So it can be assumed that they might have a shipyard down there. Though Kirishama doesn't stay long as it's in orbit before Yamato is.

Izumo Plan seems to have been for a Sleeper Ship. Though I won't rule out the idea of an earlier FTL drive system (Alcuberrie Drive) because it is possible, though the Gamilas have no knowledge of any Earth FTL ships when Ganz reported that Yamato had warped to Jupiter (and up the chain of command, the same reaction). It might have been a parallel plan to the Yamato Plan when they received the Wave Motion Engine plans in 2198 (or maybe late 2197) to build an FTL escape ship. However future WME equipped ships will need Wave Motion Cores, and unless Earth industry can build their own, they will only have Yamato until she can return home with more.

The Izumo-Yamato Plan mess will likely come to a head at somepoint in the voyage. You have the designated mission of going to Iscandar and back within one Earth year, and you have the probably more realistic goal of finding an Earth-like planet (or at least a habitable planet) to settle some humans on to continue the species. With the WME and at least some of the way cleared of Gamilas ships and bases, they could ferry survivors to the new world at least until Earth's population dies (and even then they could use non-FTL ships to move more of the population to the remains of Mars Colony and Pluto Base to give them at least a little more time for Yamato to shuttle people back and forth). Though what exactly is to stop the Gamilas from taking over or destroying that colony apart from Yamato is unclear.

One thing of interest though. Sasha's spacecraft sped into the Solar System at extremely high speeds. Somewhere around 25 times the speed of light for her to have made it from Neptune to Mars in ten minutes on January 17th, 2199. No telling what happened to Yurisha's craft at this time (maybe episode 14 has clues about that), though one imagines it was of a similar type to Sasha's.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!

Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-02-09 at 03:06.
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-09, 03:20   Link #1560
Scherzo09
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
I saw another thing note that it doesn't make any sense for the Kirishima to be able to fly through Earth's atmosphere. It doesn't have any lifting surfaces and it's pre-Yamato, so it's not like it's floating on a bed of EM particles.

Honestly I felt the ETA in that episode was a bit of a flub on their part because an object moving at 25 times the speed of light, well, it wouldn't be visible. I sort of wonder what the actual time scale is during Operation M, since relays between the Earth and Pluto would take several hours because again there wouldn't have been FTL comms Pre-Yamato.

On that note, reminds me of something else I was thinking about; why the Heliopause would block comms. IRL there doesn't seem to be much of a problem relaying to Voyager 2 as it leaves the Solar System, and obviously the Gamilans can communicate fine. I've come up with an idea: assuming the idea that Sol has a Bow Shock (It doesn't but they wouldn't have known that when making the show), the interstellar comms would blueshifted due to being accelerated beyond the speed of light and therefore hit and bounce off the Bow Shock. Either Gamilans have stronger equipment on both ends, or they use some form of Quantum Entanglement to communicate.

EDIT: Oh and if there's this idea that Earth struck Gamilas first, at least with Gamilan propaganda, wouldn't that mean at least some of them believe Earth has been FTL capable?

Last edited by Scherzo09; 2013-02-09 at 04:01.
Scherzo09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
classic, remake, science fiction, space opera, yamato

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.