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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 04
10: Amazing... 33 37.50%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 23 26.14%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 17 19.32%
7 out of 10: Good... 10 11.36%
6 out of 10: Average... 1 1.14%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 4 4.55%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 0 0%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-17, 14:37   Link #101
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Loni, really? Out of all the people in this episode you choose to give Loni as an example?
Sorry but that's a horrible example. She was screaming Sieg Zeon as she rampaged through a city with her MA, indescriminately killing civilians (remember the mother and her baby + and all the people taking refuge in the stadium?). A better example could've been Kirks, who at least limited his attacks to military targets and tried to avoid civilians.

You haven't really dismissed that main point of my argument, simply redirected to ONE of my examples.

She's the perfect example precisely because of her dedication, she felt obligated by the death of her parents and all they stood for. And you missed that part where she was finally starting to listen and let go before Riddhe shot her, who in turn felt as obligated by the death she was causing. But that's the trap isn't it, the cycle of hatred being constantly perpetuated even after a new generation has arisen since the One Year War. Or did we not watch the same thing?
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Old 2011-11-17, 14:41   Link #102
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Ridiculous, you only have to look at people like Zimmerman and Loni to know a great deal of them are simply OBLIGATED to fight, that's what being a soldier is essentially.
For the record Loni was ordered NOT to go through the city but she chose to out of bloodlust. This is the main reason why Banagher went out and why the Sleeves relented because the battle literally turned into a massacre. Banagher didn't go out to stop her because she was wiping out the federation but the civilians.

Quote:
Too many people are just 'doing their job' though which is why stuff like this never ends. I'm disappointed in Riddhe, he could clearly see the cycle of hatred he was caught up in as well as the others, and yet when the chips came down he gave into despair and refused to bet on the 'possibility'
Possibility of what? She fired first and he replied in kind. The machine had taken control of her, she was lost by that point. To not have stopped her would've resulted in both their deaths and the destruction of the entire city. Riddhe fired the shot after the beam was on its way to blast them.

Banagher did his best and was close to stopping Loni with Riddhe watching but the machine took back control. Speaking of which, the way she was talking was her parent's spirit inside that thing?
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Old 2011-11-17, 14:51   Link #103
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
For the record Loni was ordered NOT to go through the city but she chose to out of bloodlust. This is the main reason why Banagher went out and why the Sleeves relented because the battle literally turned into a massacre. Banagher didn't go out to stop her because she was wiping out the federation but the civilians.



Possibility of what? She fired first and he replied in kind. The machine had taken control of her, she was lost by that point. To not have stopped her would've resulted in both their deaths and the destruction of the entire city. Riddhe fired the shot after the beam was on its way to blast them.

Banagher did his best and was close to stopping Loni with Riddhe watching but the machine took back control. Speaking of which, the way she was talking was her parent's spirit inside that thing?
Your last part answered your first part to a large degree, while Loni did head into the city much of the bloodlust and subsequent slaughter was also attributed to the machine as well. To answer your other question I think it safe to assume her father was involved in the construction of the Shambloo in this version as well.

Said shot was rather skewered and left Loni rather open to retaliation fire don't you think? Given her position at that point and Kirk's arrival she may have also taken back control at the last moment. As it stood we'll never know what may have happened which is the real tragedy, but I seriously doubt Riddhe had that in mind when he fired given his own lamentations during the fight and his subsequent turning on Banagher.
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:30   Link #104
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I'd more of the opinion that she opened herself up to retaliation because the machine's control was overwhelming which is why she said "it's sad"

Even Riddhe agreed with Banagher when he noted that she was being enslaved by the machine. The only way to stop it was to kill her as it was going berserk. To not kill her would mean more innocent deaths.
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Old 2011-11-17, 17:28   Link #105
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Episode 4 felt like the weakest so far. There was some great scenes, but the overall story felt disjointed to me. Not to mention that they were reusing the "girl in huge MA goes on a killing spree" plot for the xth time.

Even the battle scenes felt substandard at times. There were more than a few cases when the Federation grunts literally did nothing other than just stand there and shoot. A bunch of DOMs charging towards me at high speed? No problem, I'm just gonna sit here and not move at all.

It was still a good episode, but I guess it didn't stand up to the expectation I had built up during the long wait.
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Old 2011-11-17, 17:53   Link #106
houkoholic
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Hello, no one is innocent of that, not anymore. TITANS anyone?? You know, the EARTH FEDERATION group?
That's not a very good example since the formation of the Titans was a DIRECT response to the terrorist activities of the Daliz Fleet in 0083 (if you bring in the revisionist history of Unicorn to say how bad the Feds treated the Sides, then surely 0083's revisionist account of how the Titans formed must also count, otherwise if only going by Zeta's account the formation of Titans was actually quite a negative for the Feds that actually had them stepped into true tyranny territory), and it was just unfortunate that absolute power absolutely corrupted the Titans and they fell and became the villains by 0087. But tracing back the origins again if it weren't for the nutty Zeon's there would be no Titans, so again the Zeon's were the first aggressors here and they certainly deserves a bit of the blame. Still, whatever the Titans had done can't hold a candle to the colony drops that the Zeon's did, and I still haven't seen a Zeon apologist being able to explain that, instead they just keep side stepping the question.

You would think the people at Zeon would start to realise that they uses the worse possible tactics (genocide after genocide, dropping huge things on civilian targets, continuous use of WMD etc) to make even other spacenoids hate them MORE than the Feds and instead of achieving what they want (freedom), they are actually going about it the wrong freaking way.
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Old 2011-11-17, 17:54   Link #107
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I'd more of the opinion that she opened herself up to retaliation because the machine's control was overwhelming which is why she said "it's sad"

Even Riddhe agreed with Banagher when he noted that she was being enslaved by the machine. The only way to stop it was to kill her as it was going berserk. To not kill her would mean more innocent deaths.
Err, given the emergence of Kirk at that moment to calm her down I find that kind of a skewered picture. She obviously realized what she was doing was wrong by the end of it, that she allowed herself to be consumed by hatred is what was sad, and through her death that hatred perpetuates itself, justifying the continuation of the war once again to people like Zimmerman who tried placing his hopes with Banagher.

Like in the middle of the fight, and no it was not about simply being enslaved by a machine, it was enslavement by ones bloodline as well which I think Riddhe knew all too well, but gave in to the way. I doubt it, it seemed just as plausible he slaughtered her just as she was regaining control over herself at that moment. All I can be sure of is that we're basically back to square one, the same old worn out conflict goes on it seems.

Quote:
That's not a very good example since the formation of the Titans was a DIRECT response to the terrorist activities of the Daliz Fleet in 0083 (if you bring in the revisionist history of Unicorn to say how bad the Feds treated the Sides, then surely 0083's revisionist account of how the Titans formed must also count, otherwise if only going by Zeta's account the formation of Titans was actually quite a negative for the Feds), and it was just unfortunate that absolute power absolutely corrupted the Titans and they fell and became the villains by 0087. But tracing back the origins again if it weren't for the nutty Zeon's there would be no Titans, so again the Zeon's were the first aggressors here and they certainly deserves a bit of the blame. Still, whatever the Titans had done can't hold a candle to the colony drops that the Zeon's did.

You would think the people at Zeon would start to realise that they uses the worse possible tactics to make even other spacenoids hate them MORE than the Feds and instead of achieving what they want (freedom), they are actually going about it the wrong freaking way.
And the formation of Zeon in turn was a direct result of the mismanagement, neglect, and exploitation of the Federation over space colonization which you yourself has noted. Once again the continuation of the systemic cycle of hatred. I'm not making the Zeon's out to be saints or that they aren't to blame for a great many things, including the continuation of this conflict, but one cannot solve for peace without both sides coming to some kind of accord. That why we're still here even after the One Year War and the Federations supposed victory. The problems from before, the sadness and despair are still here now, left unresolved and only covered up by anger and hatred.

And please don't get into a pissing contest of who did what worse, it was awful either way so don't sugarcoat it at by redirecting that matter. The Titans gassed quite a few colonies themselves and did what even Zeon couldn't with the destruction of Jaburo.

Hatred clouds ones perceptions, especially when all that really matters in war is who is the victor as all other subsequent actions can be justified afterwards, take a look at Hiroshima and Nagisaki, when the Soviets occupied Germany, or when North Vietman took control of the South, or for a more relevant example what happened to Zimmerman's village. Broken and defeated as they are at this point it really doesn't matter to them, they're on their last legs, coupled with desperation and frustration at being so out matched in terms of the manpower and resources that Federation can put out any means to gain an edge would seem like a good thing at that point. That's generally how I picture the Zeon mentality works anyway.
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Last edited by KrimzonStriker; 2011-11-17 at 18:11.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:22   Link #108
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Err, given the emergence of Kirk at that moment to calm her down I find that kind of a skewered picture. She obviously realized what she was doing was wrong by the end of it, that she allowed herself to be consumed by hatred is what was sad, and through her death that hatred perpetuates itself, justifying the continuation of the war once again to people like Zimmerman who tried placing his hopes with Banagher.
Yet she still was activating the cannon even when that happened. By your definition if she was taking back control it should be AFTER the cannon was activated.

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Like in the middle of the fight, and no it was not about simply being enslaved by a machine, it was enslavement by ones bloodline as well which I think Riddhe knew all too well, but gave in to the way. I doubt it, it seemed just as plausible he slaughtered her just as she was regaining control over herself at that moment. All I can be sure of is that we're basically back to square one, the same old worn out conflict goes on it seems.
The way she was acting I think the machine itself served as the "enslaver" for that bloodline since she was asking, "Father?"

I think the way the scene was protrayed was poor since I'm pretty sure she was leaving herself purposefully open to attack to stop her since the beam was not stopped by the reflectors.

And besides, how the hell is Riddhe suppose to know what's going on? Giant red mobile armour preparing to open fire and your in the way, gee cannon has fired and your shooter hasn't replied yet, what should I do? He was jusitified in his actions. She was a soldier and he was a soldier whose job was to stop its rampage from destroying the city.

Quote:
And the formation of Zeon in turn was a direct result of the mismanagement, neglect, and exploitation of the Federation over space colonization which you yourself has noted. Once again the continuation of the systemic cycle of hatred. I'm not making the Zeon's out to be saints or that they aren't to blame for a great many things, including the continuation of this conflict, but one cannot solve for peace without both sides coming to some kind of accord. That why we're still here even after the One Year War and the Federations supposed victory. The problems from before, the sadness and despair are still here now, left unresolved and only covered up by anger and hatred.
Not really, Zeon was formed by the philosophy of a man who declared that humanity should move to space and such. His ideals encouraged the idea of independence and that was only for SIDE 3. The guy even stated that the colonies should then be given control of the Earth and such. How the hell do you think the Federation (whose power is based on Earth) would take to that?

When that man was assassinated, his friend took control and turned it into the dictator and war mongerer that became the principality and such.

And I'll stop that because the mods will kill me for spoiling too much.

Quote:
And please don't get into a pissing contest of who did what worse, it was awful either way so don't sugarcoat it at by redirecting that matter. The Titans gassed quite a few colonies themselves and did what even Zeon couldn't with the destruction of Jaburo.
No his point was that the TITANs was a result of Zeon's actions in that cycle of hatred which for this Banagher was trying to stop as he was correct. Loni's actions would leave nothing but hatred for a Federation boy who'll then do the same thing to Zeon etc.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:29   Link #109
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And the formation of Zeon in turn was a direct result of the mismanagement, neglect, and exploitation of the Federation over space colonization which you yourself has noted. Once again the continuation of the systemic cycle of hatred. I'm not making the Zeon's out to be saints or that they aren't to blame for a great many things, including the continuation of this conflict, but one cannot solve for peace without both sides coming to some kind of accord. That why we're still here even after the One Year War and the Federations supposed victory. The problems from before, the sadness and despair are still here now, left unresolved and only covered up by anger and hatred.
The point a lot of us are trying to argue is that whatever the Feds did it didn't justify the Zeon's for committing genocide, which the apologists seems to keep brush it under the carpet.


Quote:
And please don't get into a pissing contest of who did what worse, it was awful either way so don't sugarcoat it at by redirecting that matter. The Titans gassed quite a few colonies themselves and did what even Zeon couldn't with the destruction of Jaburo.
The Titans only gassed one colony. Zeon gassed several.
Jaburo was a military facility while the nutty Zeon leaders has a thing for civilian targets, the difference is HUGE.
It's not a pissing contest, it's discussing facts. You can't keep saying how the Feds mistreated the spacenoids and when people rebuts with how Zeon committed genocide and only then do you throw up your arms and call it foul. That's having your cake and eating it too.

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Hatred clouds ones perceptions, especially when all that really matters in war is who is the victor as all other subsequent actions can be justified afterwards, take a look at Hiroshima and Nagisaki,
You know a lot of people in South East Asia would say the nuke dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is justified, especially if you talk to people in say, Nanking, for example, where the *civilian* death toll is reportedly the same if not even larger than the death toll of the nuke. The Japanese should've learn from the Germans and not play themselves up to be victims of the nuclear attack while at the same time gloss over and even attempted to rewrite the history such as what happened in Nanking and many parts of SE Asia. The tension between the countries in SE Asia would've be gone a long time ago.

This is the exact same type of thought processes that I assume that makes people like me and Revolutionist angry with Zeon apologists - acknowledge the fact that most, if not all, of Zeon's action is simply not justified or justifiable, especially committing numerous genocide in the name of "freedom" and move on (and no this has absolutely nothing to do with the winners writing history), everyone would be a lot happier.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:42   Link #110
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Yet she still was activating the cannon even when that happened. By your definition if she was taking back control it should be AFTER the cannon was activated.



The way she was acting I think the machine itself served as the "enslaver" for that bloodline since she was asking, "Father?"

I think the way the scene was protrayed was poor since I'm pretty sure she was leaving herself purposefully open to attack to stop her since the beam was not stopped by the reflectors.

And besides, how the hell is Riddhe suppose to know what's going on? Giant red mobile armour preparing to open fire and your in the way, gee cannon has fired and your shooter hasn't replied yet, what should I do? He was jusitified in his actions. She was a soldier and he was a soldier whose job was to stop its rampage from destroying the city.



Not really, Zeon was formed by the philosophy of a man who declared that humanity should move to space and such. His ideals encouraged the idea of independence and that was only for SIDE 3. The guy even stated that the colonies should then be given control of the Earth and such. How the hell do you think the Federation (whose power is based on Earth) would take to that?

When that man was assassinated, his friend took control and turned it into the dictator and war mongerer that became the principality and such.

And I'll stop that because the mods will kill me for spoiling too much.



No his point was that the TITANs was a result of Zeon's actions in that cycle of hatred which for this Banagher was trying to stop as he was correct. Loni's actions would leave nothing but hatred for a Federation boy who'll then do the same thing to Zeon etc.

The point and time it takes for her to take control is less the matter, just the fact that she WAS taking control back when the shot went awry the Shambloo's defenses were down, and she was sitting limp in the cockpit would suggest that she did in the end.

I was talking more about her conscious actions rather then just the ones manipulated and enforced by the Shambloo which is a separate issue.

True, but could have just as been her regaining control and standing down, we'll never know I guess, that possibility is now lost with her death.

Hey I'm not expecting Riddhe to be physic, he's not a newtype hooked up to a pyscommu unit after all. But I'm disappointed because I know he knew the real tragedy behind what was going on and the overall bigger picture, but when the chips were down he couldn't bring himself to bet on the possibility like Banagher, he couldn't see the way where no one else might have had to die and has thus doomed himself to continuing his family and mankind's mistakes.

I've read and watched through the U.C universe before, I know the standard history by now. But what I'm doing is including all the redux and expository history we've been receiving in this series as well you know, men like Deikum might not have arisen had space colonization gone so terribly awry and people would turn toward the light of Zeon in the depths of their despair, as Marida explained to Banagher in the church scene on Palau.

And you don't think Deikum might have had a point given how badly mismanaged the planets resources are and how distorted the Earth's environment is becoming, as noted in the desert scene of this episode?

He/She clearly was only referring to the act itself and I was simply responding that it shouldn't be downplayed is all, and I believe that's been my point all along so thank you for making it for me I guess.


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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
The point a lot of us are trying to argue is that whatever the Feds did it didn't justify the Zeon's for committing genocide, which the apologists seems to keep brush it under the carpet.




The Titans only gassed one colony. Zeon gassed several.
Jaburo was a military facility while the nutty Zeon leaders has a thing for civilian targets, the difference is HUGE.
It's not a pissing contest, it's discussing facts. You can't keep saying how the Feds mistreated the spacenoids and when people rebuts with how Zeon committed genocide and only then do you throw up your arms and call it foul. That's having your cake and eating it too.



You know a lot of people in South East Asia would say the nuke dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is justified, especially if you talk to people in say, Nanking, for example, where the *civilian* death toll is reportedly the same if not even larger than the death toll of the nuke. The Japanese should've learn from the Germans and not play themselves up to be victims of the nuclear attack while at the same time gloss over and even attempted to rewrite the history such as what happened in Nanking and many parts of SE Asia. The tension between the countries in SE Asia would've be gone a long time ago.

This is the exact same type of thought processes that I assume that makes people like me and Revolutionist angry with Zeon apologists - acknowledge the fact that most, if not all, of Zeon's action is simply not justified or justifiable, especially committing numerous genocide in the name of "freedom" and move on (and no this has absolutely nothing to do with the winners writing history), everyone would be a lot happier.
I'm not saying it did, but simply casting blame on Zeon as well won't fix the the clear systemic problems within the Federation and its policies towards the colonies either, that's what happened with Germany after WWI and looked what happened there.

I'm not, I'm just once again saying that people, INCLUDING Zeon but in this case also the Federation, need to get over looking at things from one side of the spectrum and acknowledge that no ones hands are really clean at this point and that this continued struggle is becoming pointless.


I'm sure that excuses it. And they blew up Jaburo with most of the Federation personnel still evacuating if I recall. Lets not forget all the suppression and subversion of power while we're at it. And I'm just trying to make a point here, I'm not really on anyone's side persay (I'm with Banagher on this one), I don't generally feel the need to point out Zeon's actions because they speak for themselves, hell members of Zeon in this OVA probably agree on that subject, but casting blame and exacting retribution changes nothing in the end.

Like we can say China, Vietnam, Myanmar, and Cambodia have spotless records of doing the same thing (to their own people too!) or not resorted to those exact same revisionist tactics up till now, or even the Western Imperialist powers who controlled the region at the time for that matter. But really I think you're just making my point for me, all anyone is doing is glossing over the underlying problems, unless an accord and an understanding can be reached these matters will continue too persist in souring relations regardless.

Hey that's just my semi-neutral understanding of the matter, I'm not saying its correct but that's likely how Zeon will perceive the matter, all people see what they want to see, and no matter how much others cast Zeon as a bunch of monsters they're also people too in the end. And a lot of people would be happier if the Federation let go of the reigns a little too, it might just help a little, don't you think? At this point I think it should be clear that one side cannot simply solve for peace alone, there needs to be a resolution from all parties on all fronts or we'll never get anywhere. Otherwise we'll be stuck in this pseudo Israel-Palestine relationship indefinitely.
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Old 2011-11-17, 21:06   Link #111
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What was the deal with Riddhe turning his gun on Banagher? Did he do that becasue he refused to kill Loni, or was he harboring hatred for him from the start?
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Old 2011-11-17, 21:57   Link #112
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Finished Episode 4.

To you, what's the difference between "you can't go further" scene in Unicorn and AGE?
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Old 2011-11-17, 22:03   Link #113
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Finished Episode 4.

To you, what's the difference between "you can't go further" scene in Unicorn and AGE?
Banagher's pose was like a a peace offering. Whereas the one in AGE was Flit saying "YOU SHALL NOT PAAAAAAAAASS!
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Old 2011-11-17, 22:12   Link #114
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What was the deal with Riddhe turning his gun on Banagher? Did he do that becasue he refused to kill Loni, or was he harboring hatred for him from the start?
Because he was under direct orders from Bright to arrest Banagher so obviously you do it with a gun.

That and he holds Banagher responsible for the destruction caused by Shamblo I believed if I heard correctly since he refused to pull the trigger.
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Old 2011-11-17, 22:53   Link #115
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More like a symbolic threat, Riddhe could have aimed at the cockpit instead. Plus, there's the Mineva Zabi factor.
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Old 2011-11-18, 02:36   Link #116
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Because he was under direct orders from Bright to arrest Banagher so obviously you do it with a gun.

That and he holds Banagher responsible for the destruction caused by Shamblo I believed if I heard correctly since he refused to pull the trigger.
i think he was blaming the Unicorn for revealing itself as the key to a Box that could overthrow the Federation and shame the Marcenas family... Banagher included because he was the pilot of it. When Riddhe thought "all this happened because of you..." the ALL encompassed the Industrial 7, Palau, Dakar, Torrington incidents AND getting Audrey, the woman Riddhe is infatuated with, involved with the box (she had no choice in the matter, as the Zabi heir she is bound to be involved).. All of this tragedy emerged because of Laplace's box so Riddhe is blaming the Unicorn, being the key to it.

what I hinted in this episode was that Riddhe is willing to keep the secret of the Box a secret.. and Banagher just might be a threat to that goal.

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More like a symbolic threat, Riddhe could have aimed at the cockpit instead. Plus, there's the Mineva Zabi factor.
yeah, the MIneva Zabi factor is quite a big determinant but I don't think Riddhe was thinking about Mineva harboring feelings for the Unicorn's pilot. Riddhe was slowly becoming enslaved by his family's curse as well..
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Old 2011-11-18, 06:05   Link #117
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I lost my way in the discussion above. Sigh, such is the difficulty of probing dense arguments.

Either way, I'm still inclined to believe that neither Zeon nor the Feddies can be forgiven for their sins. Regardless of their justifications, even the scale of their brutalities, they carried out atrocities against one another, fuelling even more conflicts that has, like Unicorn was trying to portray, tainted the history of the Universal Century thus far.

It is precisely that that Banagher's still riding in the Gundam now, to stop this mindless cycle of bloodshed. Let's just pray he will be able to do so, and the schism between space and Earth finally comes to an end.
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Old 2011-11-18, 06:35   Link #118
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Because he was under direct orders from Bright to arrest Banagher so obviously you do it with a gun.

That and he holds Banagher responsible for the destruction caused by Shamblo I believed if I heard correctly since he refused to pull the trigger.
He was?

I missed that part I guess...
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Old 2011-11-18, 07:31   Link #119
Znozzy
Praise the sun!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
He was?

I missed that part I guess...
Tech girl: Assesing Damage to torrington base-

Bright: Before that, Patch me through to Romeo008(Riddhe's callsign)

scene happens after he shoots Loni
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Old 2011-11-18, 09:08   Link #120
John117xCortana
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Why does Bright order Riddhe to arrest Banagher ?
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