AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-03-02, 02:40   Link #801
Pellissier
♪~ Daydreaming ~♪
*Graphic Designer
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Italy
Beach activities.

Spoiler for Megami/Nyantype - slightly NSFW:
__________________
Pellissier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 03:45   Link #802
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
On a lighter note, I heard that Remon's forever 17 thing was an age joke in reference to the seiyuu, Yukari Tamura. Can someone explain that to me?
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 05:29   Link #803
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Reshuffling some points to avoid redundancy.

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:
__________________

Last edited by Haak; 2012-03-02 at 11:31.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 08:01   Link #804
Waven
Itadaki-nyaaa !!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Spoiler for not rly spoiler but anyway...:


Maybe this discussion is best led in a range of ~2-3 episodes... we don't really know what Kaito and Kanna will or won't do next ep to fully justify condemning or redeeming their actions (or lack thereof).
Other than that I can't remember an MC to be criticized for acting in such a situation (read: rejecting before being confessed to) like Kaito did, a situation that has already been rerun countless times, so blaming Kaito here to me seems more like a case of blowing off steam from Kanna fans, no offense.

Last edited by Waven; 2012-03-02 at 08:19.
Waven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 14:47   Link #805
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Reshuffling some points to avoid redundancy.

Lol, no not really but that was a cute attempt at getting me to contradict myself. The reason her having Kaito all by herself is a good thing is because their relationship can naturally develop into something more just like Ichika living at Kaitoís home did. What exactly do you think Kaitoís sister meant by Kanna taking care of Kaito? Or rather, what do you think the story was trying to tell us there?

Kanna didnít confess before then because she had no reason to rush it and ruin her chances.
And how does this changes how passive she has been? I see an explanation for why she didn't try harder, not the denial of it.

Also, "natural" progression is not an excuse for avoiding confession. This isn't some marriage proposal. You make your feelings aware through your own words then work from there. If you really think it's fine to have this "natural" progression where she hides her true feelings until the last second, then you get what is called friendzoning in American culture. That's as natural as you can get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Right, we were talking about Ichika being the love rival but now youíve turned it into Kaori. Okay, whatever. Can I assume then that you can accept that Kanna didnít think she had a love rival before Kaori then right? Perfect.

Anyway, if youíre arguing that Kanna shouldíve done more when she saw Kaori then I donít know why. You already know she went to Kaito to try and clarify the issue and in the very next episode she tried to confess. And incidently, in both cases she was met with bad luck. Iím struggling to understand what more you expect from her. You keep saying she had plenty of chances which apparently must've been in those two episodes. I mean those two episodes were clearly very important for you determine her character. It's enough to say that Kanna has not been proactive based on two episodes...
No, I merely stated that the of the presence of a love rival in general is not a circumstance exclusive to Kanna, and that Kanna is well aware that she has competition.
I initially gave you proof that Kanna is aware of Ichika, using that time when she run away from them to the bus stop where she subsequently confided in and friendzoned Tetsurou. However, you denied that.
Okay then, if you don't think Kanna knows about Ichika, there is still Kaori.

Purely from what has been shown, Kanna has not done much to help herself. Even in the case that she really didn't recognize any of her rivals (and I have already given examples why that is unlikely, but let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct), you are justifying why she has not been proactive, not disproving that she has not been proactive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
No not really.

Assuming that Kaito is emotional capable of pre-rejecting her and that Kanna is emotional incapable of confessing, then yes I think it would be better for Kaito to pre-emptively reject her. Why? Because itís in their best interests. Kaito doesnít have to worry about it happening at any moment and Kanna can move on more quickly. But since neither of them is emotionally capable then I donít expect anything from either of them. Iíve already made this clear repeatedly by the way.
Again, a faulty assumption. What exactly makes Kaito emotionally capable but Kanna incapable? The fact that Kanna tried and failed? Like I said before, try again. It's in her best interest to have the courage to make her own feelings known, then face whatever response she gets afterwards. The ability to do that will help her stay strong if or when she finds another love interest.

The reason why people don't expect a reply before a confession is not because the other person's capability, but because that's not the right way to do things.

It makes no sense to desire a preemptive rejection in any case. Kanna and Kaito aside, why would Mio want Tetsurou to reject her? What could Tetsurou and Kanna possibly gain from Kanna rejecting him when he doesn't say anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Ichika was taken by surprise. Kaito wasnít. He knew what it was before she even finished. And we already know heís capable of rejecting someone on the spot. And you do remember that after Ichika recovered from the shock, Ichika then went on to try and plan a clarification right? Which I think was appropriate because someone needed to clear it all up and the most capable seemed to be Ichika. I donít think it was fair for Kaito to have to deal with it like that so i donít see why Kanna has to when it doesnít have to be that unfair.

ďOh hey, when my leg was blown off i didnít have any friends to help me deal with it and I had to do it all on my own. So even though your leg is blown off I wonít help you, even though I can, because you ought to be able to deal with it just like I did!Ē

But of course, Kaito isnít actually capable of it so I donít actually hold it against him.
A false analogy and a straw man's argument. If you want to straw man it, here's my version: "oh hey, I have two legs of my own, but I can't run as fast as everyone else in this race, therefore someone faster should pull me along because they are clearly capable and somehow I'm not!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I donít think Kanna should try harder after this because I think sheís only going to get hurt more and make things more difficult for Kaito. If Kaito pre-emptively rejects her then a lot of hurt can be avoided (but he canít so it canít be helped). Itís not about whose responsibility it is. Itís not about whatís fair. Itís about doing what needs to be done. Hell this entire argument has been ignoring possible differing factors of personality and background that can have vast effects on the situation, so it was silly to make comparisons with Kanna other characters right from the get go.

Although admittedly, a part of me does want me to have more faith in her and believe she can get Kaito in the end. I can't help but shake this funny feeling that Ichika might turn out to be Red Herring of sorts...
Being preemptively rejected will not accomplish what you think it will. All it does is harm the people when they are in a state where they aren't strong enough to take it as well. There is a reason why confessions are considered proper form in culture and preemptive rejections are not.

The pain of rejection when faced with unrequited love is a necessary evil. It's something you face (or are supposed to face) if you want to pursue a relationship that's more than platonic, then grow stronger from it.

But hey, maybe that's just my view. Here I was thinking such events were important learning experiences, but if you think it should be avoid, then gosh darn, I guess screwed up in the past for no reason at all.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 15:23   Link #806
TJR
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
On a lighter note, I heard that Remon's forever 17 thing was an age joke in reference to the seiyuu, Yukari Tamura. Can someone explain that to me?
It's just a long-running meme, primarily associated with Kikuko Inoue. For the fans only.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...ple.php?id=542
TJR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 15:50   Link #807
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier View Post
Beach activities.

Spoiler for Megami/Nyantype - slightly NSFW:
No Mio this month

Last edited by Malkuth; 2012-03-03 at 07:03.
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 15:54   Link #808
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Spoiler for Shadow5YA:
__________________

Last edited by Haak; 2012-03-02 at 16:40.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-02, 22:29   Link #809
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
[SPOILER="Shadow5YA"]

You asked for an explanation and I gave it to you. Itís silly to compare Kanna with the others and say Kanna is the one at fault because the others have been more proactive when sheís not had a reason to be more active like the others have.
Funny how you say that, because here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
But thatís the thing: Kanna didnít even know she was dealing with a love rival. And I think I've made it perfectly clear how Kanna has actually done just as much as the other girls. The only reason Kanna hasn't confessed whilst the others have is because of her luck/circumstances.
Unless I'm mistaken, I think you're saying that Kanna has just worked as hard as the others, but now you're saying that she actually wasn't as active as the others, only because it's not her fault.

Even if you do mean to defend Kanna's actions, those are still two completely different statements.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
[Please donít force your own views me. Iím just telling you what the story is telling you. Iíll ask you again: What for you think the story was trying to tell us when Kaitoís sister asked Kanna to take care Kaito?
Here's the thing: if Kanna wants something more from Kaito, then she has to say it. This is common sense.

If you plan to justify Kanna taking it slowly and keeping their relationship stagnant, then you are defending the idea that Kanna is satisfied with her current relationship towards Kaito and therefore does not have to do anything.
However, if Kanna does want a deeper relationship with Kaito, then she has to tell him. If she does nothing, then there is no doubt it won't go anywhere.

It's that simple. You can overcomplicate things by saying "but she didn't know she had rivals!" or "she'll get hurt if she confesses!", but emotional pain is unavoidable. As you say, "can't be helped."

Mio was brought to tears during her moment with Tetsurou, and she succeeded. Kaori was brought to tears, even by a guy that according to you, she has no interest in. Kanna will just have to deal with it just like them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well youíre not denying Kanna didnít think of Ichika as a threat so i guess I can assume Iím right then. Youíre not denying that Kanna wasnít proactive with Kaori either...

I denied your ďproofĒ because it wasnít really proof. I can only ask you to watch the scene with Kanna and Tetsuro again. It very clearly shows what sheís actually feeling.
Since you seem to get ahead of yourself when I give you the benefit of the doubt and insist that I rewatch the scene, here are the subs, line by line from Crunchyroll. The scenery and background descriptions are by me, but the dialogue is verbatim from the Crunchyroll video. If for some reason you find my copy questionable, feel free to heed your own advice and rewatch episode 5 yourself.

Spoiler for ep5 CR subs:


Here are the facts: Kanna asked how long Ichika was going to stay, and conversely, is implicitly asking when she is going to leave.

She leaves, and feels guilty for asking that.

Kanna meets up with Tetsurou, who asks her about what she did. She says that she "shouldn't have gone" (to Kaito's house), and that she feels uneasy just hearing the two of them (presumably Kaito and Ichika, the only other two people there) talk.

Tetsurou explicitly suggests Kanna to confess. Kanna refuses, saying that if she fails, it'll get awkward between her and Kaito and also render her unable to participate any longer in the movie.

Tetsurou asks if she is just going to leave things as us and continue to feel uneasy as a result. Kanna retorts that Tetsurou doesn't understand because she thinks he doesn't know what it's like to be in love. Tetsurou concedes.

When the rain clears up, Kanna states that she'll stay normal, and keep being her usual self.

Here's my opinion, all nice and separated for you:
I think that Kanna obviously feels guilty for asking Ichika how long she is staying because she was jealous towards Ichika. She felt bad about it, because she knew she was being shallow. The idea is reinforced by the fact that she said she felt uneasy just seeing the Kaito and Ichika together. She is quite clearly aware of Ichika as a rival, which is why she wanted to know how long Ichika is going to stay and when Ichika will leave.

Kanna is afraid to confess in fear of making things awkward, should she get rejected. This is natural. However Tetsurou suggested she do it anyway, because not knowing and feeling uneasy because of it is worse. I agree with that.

Now, maybe my comprehension is lacking, but I think I saw Kanna making the conscious decision to do nothing, in fear of ruining her relationship with Kaito. Feel free to rewatch that part and correct me.

I think that Kanna is quite clearly is aware of Ichika as a rival, and chose not to confess because she was afraid.

The benefit of the doubt I gave you is no more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
No. Iíve been justifying why sheís not been proactive when sheís not been proactive and explaining to you when she has been proactive when itís reasonable for her to be proactive. Thereís no contradiction. And Iím still not seeing much in the way of counter-arguments btw.
See above. Initially you said that Kanna was just as proactive as the others, but now you say that it isn't, but it just can't be helped because it's not her fault.

My belief that it can be helped may be my personal opinion, but it does not change the fact that Kanna chose not to act normal and refused to confess until the most recent episode.

Also, keep in mind that Kanna has had these feelings since the beginning of the series.

Here's a thought: Kanna actually felt that way before Ichika even arrived on the planet, but maybe, just maybe, Kanna chose not to do anything because of reasons already stated to Tetsurou -- she was afraid of ruining what she currently has with Kaito.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
[How the hell should I know?!?!?! IĎm not making that assumption! How many times do I have to freaking tell you that?!?!

If youíre going to argue that itís better for Kannaís feelings to confess first, then fine. I donít have any problem with that opinion, and I never did. But the last time I checked, arguing that Kanna has not been proactive and doesnít deserve to have the leisure of a pre-emptive rejection has nothing to do with arguing that itís better for her feelings if she isnít pre-emptively rejected.
An argument is centered on a claim. Here's mine: Kanna has not been proactive, save for an attempt during the Test of Courage.

I have provided evidence and reasons for my assertion.

If you refuse to acknowledge even that, I can't really stop you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So just because it could potentially be applied to one situation, that must naturally mean it has to be applied to every single one, right? I advocated what was in the best interests of Kanna and Kaito. Itís obviously going to be situational. Iím not going to advocate whatís best for the others because thatís not the point.

No I think it was a pretty good analogy actually. In my opinion, Kaitoís situation with Ichika just walking away wasnít fair at all and Ichika went on to clarify it with Kaito so it shouldnít be the same with Ichika. Argument in comparing it with Ichikaís situation was therefore false. But if you just want to ignore that point and focus on the illustration of the argument and not the actual argument and then present your own illustration, then be my guest. Again, Iím not seeing any substantial counter-arguments...
For now, I'll refrain from commenting any further on this part because it is centered on our beliefs, though I am afraid you might assume yours to be true just because I do that like above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So does that mean Kanna just got seriously harmed then? Because that was pretty much an unintentional pre-emptive rejection wasnít it? Incidentally, so was Ichikaís blank walk off when she found out Kaito liked her.

But frankly I don't need a lecture on what's natural and what isn't, especially in the form of an Appeal to Tradition. Don't try and pass it off as fact either. There's no textbook on romance and love. This is all besides the point, anyway.



Look youíre fine to believe it doesnít work, but Iím not really hearing much in the way of actual argument. Just a lot of opinion and nothing more substantial than that. Iím not looking to call you stupid for your beliefs so please donít make it sound like I am, nor do I appreciate you implying Iím lacking knowledge in important learning experiences.

If you want my view (offtopic) then frankly, Iím not convinced. How is the pain of rejection from a confession really that much more of a learning experience than the pain of pre-emptive rejection? And is it really a good idea to make decisions based on what you think would be a good learning experience? Personally I just think itís better to reduce the pain thatís right in front of me, rather than worry about something as ridiculously vague as a learning experience from love...

Besides, its not like pre-emptive rejections are that unnatural in Nagai directed anime. It happened pretty early on in Honey & Clover and it happened in Toradora! too, but ut's not like those characters died anything.
Opinions, so I won't say anything more. However, there are facts contrary to what you have stated, as shown up. A difference in opinions does not really justify ignoring the facts that come with them.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 04:54   Link #810
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy
Well, don't lie to make your point.
Cute.

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 06:57   Link #811
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
And thus the conclusion of Haak and Shadow's debate will be found above the horizon, where the two parallels meet :P

Seriously though, what is it really you're arguing, Haak? What's your simple, purest idea behind your arguments? Quite frankly speaking, I don't really get it.

Principally, I agree with what Shadow said more than yours, but I'm trying to understand your pov too here.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 07:08   Link #812
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
The only thing I'm arguing is that Kanna has been reasonably proactive and that her lack of a confession is the result of misfortune more than any major flaw in her character.
__________________

Last edited by Haak; 2012-03-03 at 07:35.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 08:55   Link #813
Spychan
Aye girl, what up.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Don't creep.
Age: 22
Or why are we honestly getting riled up over an anime?

Guys....just enjoy the anime and enjoy the fucking show.

So weird.
__________________
TUMBLR IS MY NEW LIFE-http://www.tumblr.com/blog/shesaidtotellyou and got questions? Talk to me!



(This was back in 2007 I guess? Whoa. Maybe 2005...IDK)Currently Watching:
Code-e, Mushi-Uta, , Zero no Tsukaima, Gurren Lagann, Nagasarete Airantou, Romeo X Juliet, Neon Gensis Evangelion, Nadia, Tsubasa Chronicle and Kami sama Kazoku.
Spychan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 09:44   Link #814
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Well I was hoping for a friendly discussion to begin with but since most of the antagonism was based on a point I didn't even make, it was always going to be difficult.

Plus I tried to put it under spoiler tags so no one would have to put up with the eye cancerous meta posting but that didn't work out either. If it's really that bad then I can always stop here. Considering Shadow5YA has such an incredibly low opinion of my very life viewpoint, and convinced that I'm lying and inentionally ignoring facts, I can't really say I'm interested in convincing anymore. At the very least though, I'd like to make my point seem reasonable to everyone else. It worries me that after spending so long arguing, one person still doesn't even know what it is I was arguing about.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 10:30   Link #815
warita
Dai-Youkai
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vienna
I must say I never quite understood the japanese penchant for "confessing your feelings to a person who just isnt into you".

I really wonder, what the point of it is. I think Kanna realizes, that Kaito likes Ichika, so why confess to him at all? Does she actually think, that when she lets him know about her feelings, he will suddenly realize that he loves Kanna and not Ichika?

Also..... I have been in Kaitos place a few times and it isnt pleasant. You know that other person has feelings for you, however you are not interested and you dont want to hear about his feelings either. It complicates everything and you just cant go back to how things were before confession and it usually takes a bad turn, because after you refuse him, he starts resenting you or in the worse scenario he cuts off the contact.

I dont blame Kaito at all....
warita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 10:59   Link #816
cyth
ふひひ
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by warita View Post
I really wonder, what the point of it is. I think Kanna realizes, that Kaito likes Ichika, so why confess to him at all? Does she actually think, that when she lets him know about her feelings, he will suddenly realize that he loves Kanna and not Ichika?
Of course Kaito won't change his mind, Kaito never cared about Kanna in that way. But Kanna isn't alone in this endeavour, she has Lemon supporting her. Lemon only wants all of them to grow strong as people, so she's deliberately creating opportunities for them. Being upfront about your feelings and confessing them is one of the hardest things to do in life. You put your heart out on a platter and expect the worse to happen - like it getting severely stabbed. I firmly believe that whatever happens makes you stronger.
__________________
cyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 11:17   Link #817
warita
Dai-Youkai
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vienna
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Of course Kaito won't change his mind, Kaito never cared about Kanna in that way. But Kanna isn't alone in this endeavour, she has Lemon supporting her. Lemon only wants all of them to grow strong as people, so she's deliberately creating opportunities for them. Being upfront about your feelings and confessing them is one of the hardest things to do in life. You put your heart out on a platter and expect the worse to happen - like it getting severely stabbed. I firmly believe that whatever happens makes you stronger.

Yes, you are right, it probably makes you grow.


Maybe you also grow by realizing, that there are things in this world you cant have. And as much as you would want him to love you back, its not gonna happen and you should learn to accept it and move on. That may be an even harder lesson than the first one.
warita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 12:58   Link #818
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Spoiler for compression:
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-03, 14:46   Link #819
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Okay, I appreciate your attempt at toning down the hostility so I'm going to try my best to tone it down too. Hopefully I've done a reasonable job

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-04, 11:42   Link #820
monpuchi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
It's just a long-running meme, primarily associated with Kikuko Inoue. For the fans only.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...ple.php?id=542
Interesting. I thought it was just another reference to Ichigo from Onegai Teacher. I wouldn't have guessed there was more to it than that. Thanks.
monpuchi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
romantic comedy, shounen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.