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Old 2011-11-21, 12:27   Link #1
Shai-Lang
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Is anime getting ruined by the whole "Moe" craze....

It seems to me that anime is just degrading to a lower level with this whole new Moe fad. Gone are the days of quality anime like Sailor Moon, Princess Tutu, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Candy-Candy and other old classics that actually made you think. Now all we have to watch is basically just loli fanservice.

Hayao Miyazaki himself also mentioned his worry over the whole "Moe" craze and what it means for the image of women. Japan, being a very sexist country is definitely not moving ahead with women's equality when they continue to basically showcase young, defenseless sexy girls for guys to jack off to. Not to mention the whole "les-yay" in a lot of these shows that are just meant to objectify both women and real lesbians.

So yes, call me crazy but I hate Moe. I find its demeaning, objectifying and sets back the feminist movement about 50 years. Not to mention the fact that there's hardly any story or substance in Moe anime so it's not even that entertaining anyways, unless you're a male and just looking to jack off.

It's one of the reasons why I'm a bit sceptical of trying out new anime's like Puella Madoka Magika. Even though I've heard how good it is, the art-style and implied "les-yay" action seems to me that it's not a true Magical girl Shoujo anime meant for girls but more just a fanservice extraveganza showcasing little girls for the pleasure of guys.
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Old 2011-11-21, 12:48   Link #2
ninryu
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Moe by itself is not bad, however, when moe is shoved up your face only for the sake of selling without any plot or round characters - it's horrible.
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Old 2011-11-21, 12:51   Link #3
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Any sympathy I had for your pains was completey obliterated by the incredible irony of your last sentence (it was already low when you said there's nothing but moeblobs left despite it being a very good year). You really need to go watch Madoka Magica. You can't fully comprehend the irony until you do
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:06   Link #4
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I can't understand how could people held Sailor Moon, THE ANIME, in such a high regard other than seeing through with the pinkest of pink nostalgia goggles. It was just plain bad with a very unsympathetic and unlikeable lead character and filled to the brim with fillers. It's usually recommended to go read the manga instead.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:19   Link #5
OceanBlue
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Wow, I'm sorry. I sympathized with you at first, even if I don't agree, but the second paragraph was nothing but bigotry towards an entire culture, the third paragraph was just demeaning to anyone who doesn't share your opinion, and the last was just unfortunate.

Anyway, there are 10-to-30 year gaps between the anime you mentioned. You seem to think that, because you could list 3-4 anime within the last 10-15 years that you really enjoyed, anime is somehow terrible because you recently can't find anything you like. You're just going to have to cope with the fact that masterpieces don't appear every year. Seeing how you're unwilling to expand your horizons, it's no surprise you can't find anything you like anyway. You at least know that there's another Ikuhara anime this year, right?
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:27   Link #6
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
You at least know that there's another Ikuhara anime this year, right?
For Shai-lengs info, that anime is called Mawaru Penguindrum and it's pretty damn amazing.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:44   Link #7
Triple_R
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I think that "Moe" is now well beyond being a fad. A fad is something that lasts 2, 3, 4 years at most, imo.

"Moe" has now been dominant in the anime industry for a significantly longer span than that.

At this juncture, I would say that moe is to anime what spandex-clad super-heroes are to American comic books. In other words, it predominates the entertainment genre/medium, and it has become "the face" of it in public consciousness.


While I sympathize with older anime fans who became fans at a time when moe didn't predominate anime as a whole (though there were some elements of it around even back then), I also think at some point people need to accept that this is modern anime. This is what defines it, like it or not. There's nothing particularly illegitimate about it. In fact, I think it shows a degree of cultural arrogance to expect Japan's culture (and its exports, like anime) to be more or less identical to America's. What the Japanese find appealing, attractive, sexy, etc... will sometimes clash with what Americans do, but the Japanese people have a right to their cultural preferences, imo, just as we have a right to ours.


Also, given how popular "Moe" is with the majority of those who buy the actual anime DVDs/Blu-Rays (as well as assorted figurines and merchandise), I don't see its dominance going away anytime soon. If people want "Moe" to go away, maybe they should start financially supporting the less moe-driven shows that the anime industry puts out (may I suggest Fate/Zero?)

All of that being said, "Moe" will probably eventually be eclipsed by something else, much like how moe eclipsed mecha many moons ago. But what that something is I honestly have no idea, and I do think it will arise naturally out of Japan itself, rather than from us foreign fans. It might also be a decade or more before that something arises.


It's unfortunate for some older fans, but all I can say is be patient and wait for it, or perhaps try to rediscover North American animation. I've seen some of the modern Thundercats animated show. To a great extent, it's like modern anime only with the American cultural flavor that I think some older anime fans would like to see more of.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:52   Link #8
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To be ironic, you would look at K-On from the last few years. If your hypothisis were true, this show should not be doing well in the demographics it is presently. That being young females. Sure it does have a fairly large teen to adult male following due to the moe content, but the rest of the content brought in the women and children. It says something when what was a late night "moe show" ends up on the Disney Channel in the evening slots. And when theater tickets for its next movie sell out, twice, long before the movie comes out (it will be out in about two weeks).

On top of this is its music sales. Top of the charts. To the point it beat out the real bands for a while. That's pretty good for a made up band with relatively new voice actor/singing talent.

Something happened with this show that brought in a whole lot more than the stereotypical moe fan crowd.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:02   Link #9
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
To be ironic, you would look at K-On from the last few years. If your hypothisis were true, this show should not be doing well in the demographics it is presently. That being young females. Sure it does have a fairly large teen to adult male following due to the moe content, but the rest of the content brought in the women and children. It says something when what was a late night "moe show" ends up on the Disney Channel in the evening slots. And when theater tickets for its next movie sell out, twice, long before the movie comes out (it will be out in about two weeks).

On top of this is its music sales. Top of the charts. To the point it beat out the real bands for a while. That's pretty good for a made up band with relatively new voice actor/singing talent.

Something happened with this show that brought in a whole lot more than the stereotypical moe fan crowd.
That's a very good point.

"Moe" often captures a vaguely innocent youthful exuberance/playfulness that I think can appeal to some fans beyond those who are "just looking to jack off", as Shai-Lang put it.

K-On is certainly a great example of this, imo.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:10   Link #10
Sheba
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Someone compared watching a K-On episode to an activity similar to watching those "kitten and puppies" vids on youtube. He may be not that far from the truth.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:12   Link #11
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
While I sympathize with older anime fans who became fans at a time when moe didn't predominate anime as a whole (though there were some elements of it around even back then), I also think at some point people need to accept that this is modern anime. This is what defines it, like it or not. There's nothing particularly illegitimate about it. In fact, I think it shows a degree of cultural arrogance to expect Japan's culture (and its exports, like anime) to be more or less identical to America's. What the Japanese find appealing, attractive, sexy, etc... will sometimes clash with what Americans do, but the Japanese people have a right to their cultural preferences, imo, just as we have a right to ours.
I generally avoid discussions about moe~ because criticisms of this style is usually like waving a red flag in front of a herd of bulls. However attributing to the Japanese or "Japan's culture" a preference for moe~ seems just as arrogant as the criticisms to which you object.

Anime, particularly the types of late-night shows that people here generally watch, targets a very small sliver of the Japanese public. To attribute the viewing preferences of that segment of the audience to all Japanese people of all ages seems indefensible to me.

I appreciate some shows with moe~ characters like Yune in Ikoku Meiro no Croisee or Murasaki in Kure-nai because it's appropriate to the characters being portrayed. That said, I'd rather watch shows with strong-willed adult female characters like Balsa, Shurrei, or Nina Fortner.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:13   Link #12
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I don't think moe is ruining anime in of itself. CLANNAD is one of my favorite anime after all, even if I think it's a little overrated, and it's kind of like saying "sex and nudity" is ruining Hollywood movies. What bothers me is when they do it wrong, like Yosuga No Sora (hands down one of the worst anime I've ever seen) or To-Love-Ru (just ruin the only good premise you had in that manga you stupid writers). And there's a lot of those. Like sex, moe needs to be done right, and unfortunately, not many people in the anime industry can do that for some reason.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:18   Link #13
Raiga
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Mkay seriously, we haven't heard this enough times already?

And I swear people have only started complaining now because of K-On!. I was surprised when I watched Martian Successor Nadesico (1995) and Yurika mentioned "moe moe~" in one scene. It's older than you think.

Sure K-On!'s immense popularity has spawned similar shows, but that amounts to what, two or three a season? Is that really going to kill the industry? Do you really think it'll last forever? And do you honestly think there are no shows coming out that you could possibly enjoy?

And besides, there's no reason cute and good must be mutually exclusive. Go check out Usagi Drop, which aired last season. Or Aria (which predates K-On!), which you could easily argue is about "cute girls doing cute things," but is hardly just about that.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:23   Link #14
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I generally avoid discussions about moe~ because criticisms of this style is usually like waving a red flag in front of a herd of bulls. However attributing to the Japanese or "Japan's culture" a preference for moe~ seems just as arrogant as the criticisms to which you object.
Then why didn't noitaminA's attempts to appeal to a broader audience prove more successful?

Why did its time-slot get pushed back to a later hour, and why is it that now even noitaminA has become dominated with otaku-oriented material?

Perhaps "moe" doesn't reflect on Japan's culture as a whole, but it certainly seems to reflect what Japan likes in its animated works, at the very least. There's been plenty of attempts in recent years to bring anime to a more mainstream audience, and where have those attempts brought the anime industry? Where have they brought noitaminA?


Quote:
Anime, particularly the types of late-night shows that people here generally watch, targets a very small sliver of the Japanese public. To attribute the viewing preferences of that segment of the audience to all Japanese people of all ages seems indefensible to me.
Very well. It reflects a subculture within the broader Japanese culture, similar (again) to the comic book fandom culture in North America.

The fact is that it is something cultural in nature though, and that subculture rises out of a specifically Japanese context (although it has been embraced by a significant number internationally). I do think that the otaku community is a subculture unto itself, no more or less legitimate than Trekkies, or comic book fans, or gamers.


Quote:
I appreciate some shows with moe~ characters like Yune in Ikeko Meiru no Croisee or Murasaki in Kure-nai because it's appropriate to the characters being portrayed. That said, I'd rather watch shows with strong-willed adult female characters like Balsa, Shurrei, or Nina Fortner.
And other people have a right to their viewing preferences, wouldn't you say?
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:33   Link #15
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then why didn't noitaminA's attempts to appeal to a broader audience prove more successful?
There are probably lots of answers to this question, though I doubt most of them have much to do with moe~.

Quote:
And other people have a right to their viewing preferences, wouldn't you say?
When did I say otherwise?

Whenever I read your comments on this subject, they seem very defensive, Triple_R. I wasn't attacking you, nor do I care what you watch or enjoy. I just don't agree with the notion that contemporary anime themes necessarily tell us much about Japanese culture per se. It might tell us something about what a small segment of the Japanese public currently enjoys. It probably also tells us something about the types of shows people who spend lots of money on anime products like. I'm just unconvinced that it tells us much about "the Japanese" or "Japanese culture" writ large. If we were having this discussion in 1985 we might say that the anime-viewing segment of the public enjoys watching giant robots and magical girls. What can we infer about Japanese culture from the decline of those genres? I'd say the answer is, at best, "tastes change."

Late night anime shows draw 1-2% of the audience; mainstream shows like Sazae-san or Doraemon are watched by 10-15% of the audience (e.g., http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...64#post3827864). From those figures I'd conclude Japanese people prefer to watch giant cats instead of moe~ girls. But I don't live in Japan so I'm not going to make such claims.

Here's another thread that seems relevant to this discussion.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:46   Link #16
Archon_Wing
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Oh, maybe my reply was too brief. So I will have to clarify myself.

But I didn't see any actual arguments, merely rants in the OP. Anime falling out of line with one's preferences and morals may indeed ruin it for themselves, but that's really just limited as such especially if someone has the narrow mind to prejudge something so harshly already.

Anyone who thinks that anime hasn't been showcasing cute things and young female characters in certain suggestive situations only recently needs to put things in perspective. Plenty of trashy 80s OVAs lying out there for example. So don't think of some idealized era, because if we cherry pick, you can make any period look like shit. If you want to avoid these tropes, then perhaps another form of media would be better

The issue here is to the degree it is being expressed by. I dislike shows like K-on myself. But I look the shows on a case by case basis, not simply cling to rigid and trash definitions of genre.

Also could we not generalize an entire country by a small hardcore fanbase that funds the anime? Yes, sexism is a problem, but Japan's not the only place. I know of many other countries, including my home country of the United States that have provided equally as insulting depictions of female characters.

Generalizing entire groups of people without any concrete example is a clear sign that one needs to get educated. Preferably before one hits the post button.

Note that I am not calling anyone ignorant. One may be a genius but ill informed in certain issues. But this here could definitely use some more thought. But it's ok. When I came to AS at first, I made huge and sweeping generalizations about things I didn't know crap about. Fortunately, I kept a somewhat open mind which helped put things in perspective.

Anyhow, I dare anyone to watch Usagi Drop the anime and Aoi Bungaku and still keep these assumptions going.
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:46   Link #17
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For me, it's less about "being ruined" and more about "becoming uninteresting". Moe's been overdone to hell and back, and at this point I just don't really care anymore. I just ignore all moe shows as a rule.

There are plenty of older anime one can watch, and there are things aimed at the more general audience. I've recently enjoyed two anime films: Utena: Adolescence Apocalypse and Mai Mai Shinko, and I didn't feel like my experience was being ruined by the fact that there are hundreds upon hundreds of moe shows out there, simply because I don't watch them.
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Old 2011-11-21, 15:02   Link #18
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When has "moe" itself become a genre? I think the OP is confusing moe for ecchi fan service series..which is just dumb because there are plenty of series with moe characters that have no fan service at all: Pita Ten, Bottle Fairy, Milky Holmes, just to name a few.

Quote:
Not to mention the fact that there's hardly any story or substance in Moe anime so it's not even that entertaining anyways, unless you're a male and just looking to jack off.
Not only is this statement grossly untrue and biased, it's inaccurate. I enjoy moe-style anime and I certainly don't jack off to it as I am a girl.

Quote:
I find its demeaning, objectifying and sets back the feminist movement about 50 years.
Just because the female characters are made to look cute, it's degrading to women?

GIVE ME A BREAK. People were fapping to anime girls long before the moe style came about. Do you have any idea how much Sailormoon hentai is out there!?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I can't understand how could people held Sailor Moon, THE ANIME, in such a high regard other than seeing through with the pinkest of pink nostalgia goggles. It was just plain bad with a very unsympathetic and unlikeable lead character and filled to the brim with fillers.
That's seriously not true at all. I find Usagi very likable and the series itself a classic. There was nothing wrong with the fillers-they were entertaining.
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Old 2011-11-21, 15:14   Link #19
Ichuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanty View Post
For me, it's less about "being ruined" and more about "becoming uninteresting". Moe's been overdone to hell and back, and at this point I just don't really care anymore. I just ignore all moe shows as a rule.

There are plenty of older anime one can watch, and there are things aimed at the more general audience. I've recently enjoyed two anime films: Utena: Adolescence Apocalypse and Mai Mai Shinko, and I didn't feel like my experience was being ruined by the fact that there are hundreds upon hundreds of moe shows out there, simply because I don't watch them.
I think that moe is becoming unintresting as well since I see more moe-plotless anime hyped than the ones that does have a plot
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Old 2011-11-21, 15:14   Link #20
Shai-Lang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I can't understand how could people held Sailor Moon, THE ANIME, in such a high regard other than seeing through with the pinkest of pink nostalgia goggles. It was just plain bad with a very unsympathetic and unlikeable lead character and filled to the brim with fillers. It's usually recommended to go read the manga instead.
First of all, your extremely sexist icon doesn't do you any favors to help your argument. Second of all, by Sailor Moon I meant the manga as well, as well as the Fruits Basket manga. The reason I didn't include manga in the OP is because there are still good manga being released compared to anime so I didn't feel the need to include it.

But I do agree with you about the SM manga being better than the anime, still though regardless of how low the quality the SM anime is, its like Shakespeare compared to most of the anime we've been getting this generation.
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