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Old 2011-11-21, 21:56   Link #61
Marcus H.
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Echoing Raiga's post on Page 1: NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN.

Unless you're watching every single anime series for the past six to seven years or so, you have no right to judge the "moe craze" the industry is currently airing. And I even doubt that such a craze exists.

First of all, you and I have different ways of viewing "moe". While your opinion of moe may extend to an entire series and can be based on a single scene or on character design. As for me, I don't have any qualms about moe; I only watch what I think is interesting, and the rest might get a chance at a later time.

Second, moe does not necessarily ruin an entire series. See Puella Magi Madoka Magica, whose character designer Ume Aoki-sensei is known for her nutbladder-bursting cute characters in Hidamari Sketch. However, the story itself dictates everything, and you get to witness these "moe" characters in a much darker plot that what you'd imagine in Ume-sensei's works. Likewise, a single moe scene does not taint the series where it belongs to and an entire series filled with "moe" cannot be put at fault for a "drop of quality" in Noitamina. It's their choice, and you can just opt to not watch noitaminA shows since it's just a timeslot anyway.

Third, there's more to anime right now than "moe" shows. There's Tiger and Bunny, which puts an interesting twist on superheroes. There's Madoka Magica, which places the Magical Girl genre into its darkest incarnation since the original Sailormoon manga series. There's Steins;Gate, that is applauded for being one of the best visual novel adaptations. Also, there's Mawaru Penguindrum, if you're interested in "something different". If you think anime is only in it for moe, then it is time for you to break that mentality.
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Last edited by Marcus H.; 2011-11-22 at 01:26. Reason: Welp, it's Raiga, not Taiga.
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Old 2011-11-21, 22:13   Link #62
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
The thing is that females in general are subject to the slut/prude double standard. A woman that is utterly open sexually is derided as a slut while the overly shy character that gets embarrassed over the smallest hints of sensuality is a prude.
You're absolutely right, but this is something that is now engrained in society. Even if a media form isn't attempting to bring up that sort of double-standard, people pick it out. I think it's unfair to blame media portrayals of women under those circumstances. It goes back to what I said earlier: include a female character in a media piece, and you've already lost, because someone, somewhere, will find it sexist/degrading/objectifying in some form. (Granted, if you don't include a female character then you're open to being called sexist all the same...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Either is presenting a female character as something to be desired, a prize. This is why most harems feature one guy and many girls.
A harem is, by definition, a group of females sharing one male It occurs in nature. While there are some animal species where "reverse harem" situations occur, they're pretty rare. Off the top of my head, I think it occurs in some species of lizard, and possibly in chimpanzees?

A lot of advertising and entertainment forms claw into our primal desires. No matter how advanced we like to think we are, sex is a big part of that. Women seem to be more sensitive about objectification of their gender than do men, but it's absolutely not true to say that men are not objectified just as much. Look in games, advertisements, movies, etc. and count the number of well-muscled men that you see, particularly going shirtless. I haven't heard people making a big deal about that...

Part of the discrepancy may be that the male sex drive is much easier to tap into than that of females. Almost every male has a perfect "weakness" when it comes to women - it's just a matter of finding the right physical attributes. Women have similar preferences, but for most women it's not enough to only have that physical attraction. Emotions need to be stoked on the part of the viewer, as well.

Hmm, maybe that explains why the portrayal of women in media seems dumbed down? If you assume that these characters are meant to draw people to the show, the amount of work needed to draw in males is much less (and the characters represent that). Since females arguably need "deeper" characters, the portrayals of males are developed to meet it. Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
As relentlessflame suggests, it's really not clear what this thread is supposed to be about, and the OP's rather inflammatory post didn't help matters any.
If you boil it down, I think that this is a rant about the objectification of women in the media, only it centers around anime as the media form in question.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:17   Link #63
Marcus H.
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Quote:
If you boil it down, I think that this is a rant about the objectification of women in the media, only it centers around anime as the media form in question.
You know this kind of topic often becomes fuel to unnecessary behavior towards others.
Let's just kill this topic now, please?
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:19   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
You know this kind of topic often becomes fuel to unnecessary behavior towards others.
Let's just kill this topic now, please?
If you don't like it, don't participate.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:22   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You're absolutely right, but this is something that is now engrained in society. Even if a media form isn't attempting to bring up that sort of double-standard, people pick it out. I think it's unfair to blame media portrayals of women under those circumstances. It goes back to what I said earlier: include a female character in a media piece, and you've already lost, because someone, somewhere, will find it sexist/degrading/objectifying in some form. (Granted, if you don't include a female character then you're open to being called sexist all the same...)
Yes, Media reflects sociey's thoughts and ideals, what we want to see (or what they wish to make us think) Problem is when it overall shows us as ugly, I don't see how it makes it any better and certainly doesn't serve as a justification. We can do better than this. It doesn't matter how it got there. The fact that it is there, and it is condescending.

But yes, it's hardly limited to anime which is why a lot of rants on the matter lack perspective.

And the thought that not including a female character is sexist, is actually somewhat sexist in itself. If you're demanding the forced inclusion of a group for the sake of quality, well... you're trapped in the same mindset of predjudice.


Quote:
A harem is, by definition, a group of females sharing one male It occurs in nature. While there are some animal species where "reverse harem" situations occur, they're pretty rare. Off the top of my head, I think it occurs in some species of lizard, and possibly in chimpanzees?
Lol, just trying to include the few anime which have the opposite.
Quote:
A lot of advertising and entertainment forms claw into our primal desires. No matter how advanced we like to think we are, sex is a big part of that. Women seem to be more sensitive about objectification of their gender than do men, but it's absolutely not true to say that men are not objectified just as much. Look in games, advertisements, movies, etc. and count the number of well-muscled men that you see, particularly going shirtless. I haven't heard people making a big deal about that...
Yes, they are sometimes seen shirtless. But that's nothing compared to female fanservice is it? If some guy actually gets their clothes blown off, it's usually for comedy, and there are far more instances of female fanservice. Just look at anime covers of your neighborhood's blockbuckbuster movies. Or just any poster. Is it more likely to feature a sexy, scantily clad female?

Males in society are not as demonized by being portrayed as sexualized beings. Remember, a man that is able to acquire many sexual partners is frequently praised and envied. How many stories have been written through history about men who are successful that are defined through wealth, power, and "bitches and hoes"?

So, the sexism presented towards men is different and subject to its own double standard. Also, it doesn't matter if men complain less either. It doesn't justify anything. Both kinds of sexism can still be wrong. Unwarranted abuse of male characters by female ones in anime is my greatest pet peeve, since it seems to be okay to beat on people because they are guys.

Quote:
Part of the discrepancy may be that the male sex drive is much easier to tap into than that of females. Almost every male has a perfect "weakness" when it comes to women - it's just a matter of finding the right physical attributes. Women have similar preferences, but for most women it's not enough to only have that physical attraction. Emotions need to be stoked on the part of the viewer, as well.
So it's easier to be able to pander to men. And people are lazy. So....
Quote:
Hmm, maybe that explains why the portrayal of women in media seems dumbed down? If you assume that these characters are meant to draw people to the show, the amount of work needed to draw in males is much less (and the characters represent that). Since females arguably need "deeper" characters, the portrayals of males are developed to meet it. Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it.
It could be, as suggested by your previous part. But the fact that media execs think that guys are dumber and easier to hook in, is definitely insulting, don't you think?

Quote:
If you boil it down, I think that this is a rant about the objectification of women in the media, only it centers around anime as the media form in question.
Of course it is. :3 How else would it remain on topic?

In any case, I really don't want to portray sexism as a one sided affair where guys are terrible beings that only know how to rape and pillage. Men are victim of sexism in their own ways, as they have their own expectations forced upon them. For example, a male that doesn't desire sex is probably looked down upon as a female that does heavily desire sex

But since the people in charge of the media and the world in general are still men, you will see this crap more likely to cater to males and be more condescending to females. So.... crap happens.

There are no hard and fast rules to determine what is "good" and what is "bad". How the message as delivered matters a lot. And I have plenty of fanservice/moe titles under my belt.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:30   Link #66
Marcus H.
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If you don't like it, don't participate.
It's not I don't like topics like this, period. I just don't want this to escalate into arguments about the "moe == cancer" shit I've seen in 4chan for some time now. I have to say it was quite fortunate that long gone are the people who have been staunch critics of moe in anime, and the discussion has been quite smooth thanks to the more experienced bunch in the forums.

Quote:
In any case, I really don't want to portray sexism as a one sided affair where guys are terrible beings that only know how to rape and pillage.
This reminds me of a similar topic over at the Ben-to thread, where there are three whole pages (and counting, possibly) of reactions on Ume Shiraume, a girl who likes to beat up the male MC in a variety of ways that rival the punishment he receives from being a Half-Priced Bento Warrior.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:34   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
We can do better than this. It doesn't matter how it got there. The fact that it is there, and it is condescending.
It's an interesting problem. How do you get rid of it? It exists within society and the media indulges it, creating a cycle that feeds on itself. You say that it doesn't matter how it got there, but what if the reason it's there is because it's a part of our nature? I don't mean that objectification of women is a part of our nature, but sexual attraction and focus on the physical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
And the thought that not including a female character is sexist, is actually somewhat sexist in itself. If you're demanding the forced inclusion of a group for the sake of quality, well... you're trapped in the same mindset of prejudice.
Indeed. The lesson I take from it is that people can and will be offended over anything. If someone wants to claim persecution, they'll be able to find it in nearly anything, whether it was intended or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yes, they are sometimes seen shirtless. But that's nothing compared to female fanservice is it?
Double standard! What makes you say that it's nothing compared to female fan service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Just look at anime covers of your neighborhood's blocbuckbuster movies. Or just any poster. Is it more likely to feature a sexy, scantily clad female?
Some marketing research indicated that men were drawn to attractive women, and more surprisingly, that other women were, too. If true, it's not surprising that women are used heavily in advertising. Is it sexist, or is it just speaking to something that's hard-wired in all of us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
It could be, as suggested by your previous part. But the fact that media execs think that guys are dumber and easier to hook in, is definitely insulting, don't you think?
Well, it's not a matter of guys being dumber. The psychology behind their sex drive is just easier to tap into.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:37   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
If you boil it down, I think that this is a rant about the objectification of women in the media, only it centers around anime as the media form in question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Of course it is. :3 How else would it remain on topic?
Well, if we want to just have a debate about the "objectification of women in media", I'm sure there are other threads that are more focused on this issue, and don't start on such a confusing, misinformed, and inflammatory tone. While I'm glad that people have managed to keep things civil despite the starting point, I have to admit that I'm not too sure that the current discussion has too much to do with the topic at hand. Of course, part of the problem is because the issues the OP was really complaining about too don't really have much to do with the real heart of the issue.

Anyway the stated topic at hand is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai-Lang View Post
Anyways, there is a point to this thread. It's supposed to open up a discussion on whether Moe or not is declining the quality of anime, and also if it's objectifying to women.
The broader discussion about objectification of women (and other gender-driven portrayals) in media probably belongs elsewhere, though I don't know where off-hand. Otherwise, I think this thread is just going to continue veering off to who-knows-where (though that isn't to say the conversation doesn't have a place).

Regarding the specific point of this thread... is there more to be said at this point?
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:37   Link #69
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It's not I don't like topics like this, period. I just don't want this to escalate into arguments about the "moe == cancer" shit I've seen in 4chan for some time now. I have to say it was quite fortunate that long gone are the people who have been staunch critics of moe in anime, and the discussion has been quite smooth thanks to the more experienced bunch in the forums.
As I said, if you don't like it, don't participate. The discussion is flowing rather nicely right now. If it devolves into a foolish argument of extremes, you'll see me take my own advice and I'll cease participating in the thread (and I'd suggest that anyone else who doesn't find those types of discussions appealing should do the same). I understand your concern, but I don't see why we should end a discussion prematurely over fears of what it might turn into. Life's too short.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:51   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post

Part of the discrepancy may be that the male sex drive is much easier to tap into than that of females. Almost every male has a perfect "weakness" when it comes to women - it's just a matter of finding the right physical attributes. Women have similar preferences, but for most women it's not enough to only have that physical attraction. Emotions need to be stoked on the part of the viewer, as well.
What I find highly ironic here is that I think that a huge chunk of "Moe", if not the majority of it, is aiming to appeal to male viewers emotionally and not just at the level of the "right physical characteristics".

If that is the case, perhaps one could even argue that moe character types can at times show more respect to women than female characters that are created purely to appeal as "sex objects".

If you consider most of the female characters in the Key/KyoAni works, for example, they never strike me as being there simply to appeal to male viewers at a purely primal sexual level.

There is a definite emotional dimension at play, where attempts are clearly made to make the viewer feel real sympathy and caring for these characters.

Granted, some of these characters suffer from a sort of infantilization, and I can definitely see how that would offend some viewers, especially female viewers (speaking of which, I wonder if such infantalization is Shai-Lang's primary beef with "Moe" as a whole - If so, I can respect a more nuanced and precise criticism of that alone).

Still, many of the female characters in the Key/KyoAni works are pretty mature, and well-written, imo. I agree with 0utfoxZer0 on Kyou and Tomoyo, but I would also add Shiori and Nayuki (particularly Shiori who I think is a very well-written and well-rounded female character). Mai and Kotomi are not particularly mature, but I also think they have definitive strengths that help to improve their characters and make them interesting (if not compelling) in and of themselves.


So while you do have certain extreme cases of moe characters being infantalized, those extreme cases are exactly that: extreme. I would say that your average "middle of the road" moe character is more like the ones 0utf0xZer0 and myself have mentioned.

And on the "high end" of such moe characters, you have ones like Sola's Matsuri, imo.


Here's an idea I'd like to throw out there: Moe characters are often meant to appeal to male viewers the same way that "dreamy guys" are meant to appeal to female viewers. The K-On girls are akin to a popular boy band, you could say. It's perhaps no coincidence that there's considerable overlap between moe girls and "music idol" girls (just think of the Vocaloids).

Now are popular boy bands insults to the male gender? I know some guys who think so, lol, but for female fans of such boy bands, I don't think that they view the guys in them as somehow representing guys being inferior/submissive to women. Likewise, I think that many moe characters are kind of looked up to, if not idolized a bit, by male anime fans.

Going back to Sola's Masturi for a second, I think you could say she's the female equivalent of your standard Johnny Depp character. She's definitely intended to come across as "cool" and charming; inherently impressive and not merely a sexual object.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:55   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It's an interesting problem. How do you get rid of it? It exists within society and the media indulges it, creating a cycle that feeds on itself. You say that it doesn't matter how it got there, but what if the reason it's there is because it's a part of our nature? I don't mean that objectification of women is a part of our nature, but sexual attraction and focus on the physical.
There's nothing wrong with said things. Like I said, I enjoy fanservice and moe anime. I admit it, and if someone wants to picket me, so be it. But variety for all is an issue, isn't it.

Quote:
Indeed. The lesson I take from it is that people can and will be offended over anything. If someone wants to claim persecution, they'll be able to find it in nearly anything, whether it was intended or not.
Correct. Which is why many of us took offense at certain ideas espoused here.

Quote:
Double standard! What makes you say that it's nothing compared to female fan service?
I could go through all my anime, and find all the nude female shots first. Then again.... I'm just certain this is true in anime; you're free to find me examples where this is not the case.

Quote:
Some marketing research indicated that men were drawn to attractive women, and more surprisingly, that other women were, too. If true, it's not surprising that women are used heavily in advertising. Is it sexist, or is it just speaking to something that's hard-wired in all of us?
I think we are just trained to react well to moe and sexiness. Like I said, it's not inherently a bad thing.

Quote:
Well, it's not a matter of guys being dumber. The psychology behind their sex drive is just easier to tap into.
I didn't disagree with you here. But I demand more respect [from the people that deliver my anime]

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, if we want to just have a debate about the "objectification of women in media", I'm sure there are other threads that are more focused on this issue, and don't start on such a confusing, misinformed, and inflammatory tone. While I'm glad that people have managed to keep things civil despite the starting point, I have to admit that I'm not too sure that the current discussion has too much to do with the topic at hand. Of course, part of the problem is because the issues the OP was really complaining about too don't really have much to do with the real heart of the issue.

Anyway the stated topic at hand is:
Whoops, I thought he was replying to me. In any case, anime is a media form, and I think I have made clear that all my examples are relevant to my points and can be put forth into anime. I'm really not sure on why you thought I was trying to insult Ledgem, but if you wish for me to only stick with anime examples I will stick with that from now on, starting this post.

I am merely trying to express my world view, and impose it on anime. You can replace every instance of what I said "media" with "anime". I was just lazy in the wording.

My point is that I agree with the basis of his post. It was said slightly in jest:

Quote:
If you boil it down, I think that this is a rant about the objectification of women in the media, only it centers around anime as the media form in question.
My sole point being: It must be about anime, to stay on topic, which is kind of a self-realization that happened too late.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:01   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Granted, some of these characters suffer from a sort of infantilization, and I can definitely see how that would offend some viewers, especially female viewers (speaking of which, I wonder if such infantalization is Shai-Lang's primary beef with "Moe" as a whole - If so, I can respect a more nuanced and precise criticism of that alone).
I can't +rep you at the moment, but I wanted to say that you raise a very interesting point that hadn't been raised before. The "infantilization" is arguably a degrading angle. I don't think it's intended to be that way, but now that you've said it, I can certainly understand why some people would be upset over it.

I guess we'd have to wait for Shai-Lang to come back and remark on it, though.

(And Archon_Wing, I didn't think that any aspect of your posts came off as offensive. No worries. I've enjoyed the conversation we had.)
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:06   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Shai-Lang View Post
Japan, being a very sexist country is definitely not moving ahead with women's equality when they continue to basically showcase young, defenseless sexy girls for guys to jack off to. Not to mention the whole "les-yay" in a lot of these shows that are just meant to objectify both women and real lesbians.
I'm going to throw in a possibly unpopular opinion here and say that sexualization of female characters is not sexist or objectifying in itself. How is a panty shot or breast bounce sexist? Would you consider a scene where an attractive male character is shirtless sexist as well? Should female watchers feel guilty for enjoying nude scenes of their favorite male characters? Sexual fanservice is a tool to titillate the viewers, whether male or female, and it can be rewarding if done in an acceptable way (which is most of the time, in my opinion).

A female character can be well-developed and even be considered progressive even if she is sexualized. Take Akamatsu Ken's Negima, for instance. Yes, there is tons and tons of fanservice, but the characters are very well-developed with their own unique goals and personalities. This works in the same way with Neon Genesis Evangelion: lot of 'pervy' camera shots and fanservice, but well-developed characters. Much more preferable to the typical dull, perfect "action girl" of several Hollywood action movies.

I like and enjoy most fanservice; why should I or anyone else have to feel guilty for becoming sexually attracted to a character we like?

Moe works the same way. It's true that a lot of characters I consider moe I'd love to have sex with, but the terms are quite separate in meaning. Nevertheless, why should I feel bad for feeling moe? Moe is a good thing. It makes you feel warm, happy, relaxed, and confident. It's when an anime has nothing good but moe that it becomes less than standard.

There is another thing I'd like to address about sexism: The Bechdel Test. From the Hollywood films I've watched; there are typically only two or so female characters and they rarely get chemistry between each other. It's proven that Western film makers are actually encouraged to avoid conversation between female characters. Even when female characters meet, quite often they are either talking about a man or they are fighting each other. In contrast, from the (admittedly small) number of anime I've seen, the great majority have passed this test with flying colors. I'm not saying that passing the test is a necessity to depict females fairly, neither am I saying that passing the test automatically prevents sexist depictions, but anime females tend to have a lot more presence than those from Hollywood movies, which is an important step towards a fair portrayal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai-Lang View Post
It seems to me that anime is just degrading to a lower level with this whole new Moe fad. Gone are the days of quality anime like Sailor Moon, Princess Tutu, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Candy-Candy and other old classics that actually made you think.
What exactly are you looking for here? Maybe you should start a recommendation thread in the Suggestions Forum detailing exactly what you want to see in modern anime. We can guide you from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai-Lang View Post
Now all we have to watch is basically just loli fanservice.
I wish there was more loli fanservice in anime. Whenever I've seen it lately, it seemed very much subdued next to the "monster breast" fanservice. More normal-sized busts would be great, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai-Lang View Post
So yes, call me crazy but I hate Moe. I find its demeaning, objectifying and sets back the feminist movement about 50 years. Not to mention the fact that there's hardly any story or substance in Moe anime so it's not even that entertaining anyways, unless you're a male and just looking to jack off.
Gunbuster has a fantastic, uplifting story that drove me to tears. It also has some characters I consider to be moe. Just one example out of many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai-Lang View Post
It's one of the reasons why I'm a bit sceptical of trying out new anime's like Puella Madoka Magika. Even though I've heard how good it is, the art-style and implied "les-yay" action seems to me that it's not a true Magical girl Shoujo anime meant for girls but more just a fanservice extraveganza showcasing little girls for the pleasure of guys.
Watch Madoka Magica. Seriously, just watch it. It could be exactly the type of anime you want to see.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:16   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Whoops, I thought he was replying to me. In any case, anime is a media form, and I think I have made clear that all my examples are relevant to my points and can be put forth into anime. I'm really not sure on why you thought I was trying to insult Ledgem, but if you wish for me to only stick with anime examples I will stick with that from now on, starting this post.
No no, sorry -- I didn't take it as an insult or anything, I was just trying to say that let's try to stick somewhat close to the proposed thread topic... even though I'm not sure just how much more there is to say about it before it turns "cyclic" to be honest. I have been generally impressed by the conversation so far; expected a lot more hurt feelings.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Granted, some of these characters suffer from a sort of infantilization, and I can definitely see how that would offend some viewers, especially female viewers (speaking of which, I wonder if such infantalization is Shai-Lang's primary beef with "Moe" as a whole - If so, I can respect a more nuanced and precise criticism of that alone).
Yes, this one the many tangent/angles I wondered about in the original post as well, and as a standalone consideration could probably be debated/discussed (though with great care/caution, I should add). I think you are quite correct that even characters that may appear or act "childish" (to emphasize this sort of "cuteness") often have additional dimensions beneath the surface that contribute more than this and what ultimately make them endearing. But from an outside perspective, this may not be apparent, and if you couple this with a preconception that these shows lack substance, along with some of the more... flamboyant displays of excessive devotion? ... it may send a message not unlike that what the OP seems to perceive. If you've come to believe that "moe = sexualization of young girls" then, okay, I can definitely see how that would offend some people (probably even a lot of people). That's indeed why we need to break the real issue down to its component parts and figure out the heart of the "problem", because there are probably a bunch of separate issues at play that happen to have been grouped together.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:22   Link #75
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No no, sorry -- I didn't take it as an insult or anything, I was just trying to say that let's try to stick somewhat close to the proposed thread topic... even though I'm not sure just how much more there is to say about it before it turns "cyclic" to be honest. I have been generally impressed by the conversation so far; expected a lot more hurt feelings.
Actually, despite the racy content of the OP (I must admit to have had to restrain myself a little on that), there's been so many good responses that I have but little time to respond to. In fact, your own deconstruction of the OP raised its good points too, to be considered and we were spending time deciding on what the point of this thread is, led to much productivity in itself.

But yea, it may have been hard to tell the intention of my posts (damn tone on the internet). I just wanted to remind myself and everyone that it must be about anime in a general anime sub-forum.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:31   Link #76
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Moe is simply effectively marketed to what the target audience that will fork over money to buy the show and the merchandise. It's not superior writing, story or characters. It's marketed properly. Marketing is more important than the title itself if you want sales. And if that's what more people in Japan buy than other titles/styles, then that's what more studios will make. Sales and quality don't correlate. You don't necessarily have to have a good title to sell. You just need to make people want it.

And moe wasn't the first to do it, nor is it the most effective. The Evangelion and Gundam franchises are better at it. They can exist for years without a new title purely off of merchandise and Bandai marketing strategies. Merchandise is just as important as the title itself in maintaining the numbers of a fanbase.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:38   Link #77
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Sexual fanservice is a tool to titillate the viewers, whether male or female, and it can be rewarding if done in an acceptable way (which is most of the time, in my opinion).
I somewhat disagree with you here. I personally find that sexual fanservice is very often distracting from the plot. In some cases, it's even distracting from what's happening on-screen at the very same time.

Something like Strike Witches, or yes, the Negima manga, I find extremely hard to get into because it's throwing loud* sexual fanservice at me at the very same time as it's throwing serious action scenes at me, and it just causes a nasty clash for me. For me, it's kind of like if Shakespeare tried to insert a lot of comedic relief into his play's finest moments of high drama.

That being said...


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Much more preferable to the typical dull, perfect "action girl" of several Hollywood action movies.
I so agree with you here. I am so tired of the typical dull, perfect "action girl" of several Hollywood action movies.


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There is another thing I'd like to address about sexism: The Bechdel Test. From the Hollywood films I've watched; there are typically only two or so female characters and they rarely get chemistry between each other. It's proven that Western film makers are actually encouraged to avoid conversation between female characters. Even when female characters meet, quite often they are either talking about a man or they are fighting each other. In contrast, from the (admittedly small) number of anime I've seen, the great majority have passed this test with flying colors.

I'm not saying that passing the test is a necessity to depict females fairly, neither am I saying that passing the test automatically prevents sexist depictions, but anime females tend to have a lot more presence than those from Hollywood movies, which is an important step towards a fair portrayal.
Very good points.


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Watch Madoka Magica. Seriously, just watch it. It could be exactly the type of anime you want to see.
Going back to The Bechdel Test, it just occurred to me that Madoka Magica passes this incredibly well. The show is absolutely chock-full of two or more female characters conversing over serious, weighty issues that have little-to-nothing to do with a man or men.


* "Loud" in the sense that a Hawaiian T-Shirt is loud.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:46   Link #78
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Watch Madoka Magica. Seriously, just watch it. It could be exactly the type of anime you want to see.
Madoka is a show that polarises the new school and old school. New school generally likes it, old school generally despises it. I know because I've spoken to plenty of old school fans over the last year and they tell me shows like Madoka are why they've given up on anime. Madoka pushes all the right buttons for the current crop. For the crop that came off of the 1998 wave, Madoka is the exact opposite of what they want. Not saying whcih way people should go on it - but I am saying Madoka is a show that typifies the changes in what anime fans want now and wanted 10 years ago.
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Old 2011-11-22, 02:02   Link #79
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And moe wasn't the first to do it, nor is it the most effective. The Evangelion and Gundam franchises are better at it.
Don't forget that Evangelion caused an explosive inflation for the otaku market through moe, as well as solidifying the famous "quiet girl" archetype that is popular today.

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I somewhat disagree with you here. I personally find that sexual fanservice is very often distracting from the plot. In some cases, it's even distracting from what's happening on-screen at the very same time.

Something like Strike Witches, or yes, the Negima manga, I find extremely hard to get into because it's throwing loud* sexual fanservice at me at the very same time as it's throwing serious action scenes at me, and it just causes a nasty clash for me. For me, it's kind of like if Shakespeare tried to insert a lot of comedic relief into his play's finest moments of high drama.
I can't blame you for disagreeing. Fanservice, especially the magnitude of fanservice seen in Negima, is certainly an acquired taste. After a while of reading Negima, I got slightly desensitized to the constant fanservice and began to look beyond it and greatly appreciate the characters and plot. Even now, I still think some of the fanservice is distracting in a few of the focal moments of Negima. And of course, how suitable the use of fanservice in an anime or manga should be is debatable and varies depending on the person.

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Going back to The Bechdel Test, it just occurred to me that Madoka Magica passes this incredibly well. The show is literally chock-full of two or more female characters conversing over serious, weighty issues that have little-to-nothing to do with a man or men.
What's amusing is that Madoka Magica comes dangerously close to failing the Reverse Bechdel Test, with Kyousuke's doctor talking to him in one scene barely making it pass.

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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
Madoka is a show that polarises the new school and old school. New school generally likes it, old school generally despises it. I know because I've spoken to plenty of old school fans over the last year and they tell me shows like Madoka are why they've given up on anime. Madoka pushes all the right buttons for the current crop. For the crop that came off of the 1998 wave, Madoka is the exact opposite of what they want. Not saying whcih way people should go on it - but I am saying Madoka is a show that typifies the changes in what anime fans want now and wanted 10 years ago.
What exactly made them dislike it? I'm sure that some people who wish for a heavier plot in their anime would like Madoka Magica because it has just that.
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Old 2011-11-22, 02:15   Link #80
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Going back to The Bechdel Test, it just occurred to me that Madoka Magica passes this incredibly well. The show is absolutely chock-full of two or more female characters conversing over serious, weighty issues that have little-to-nothing to do with a man or men.
Most of the shows people complain are moe shows are the ones that PASS the Bechdel Test though. With anime you kind of want a show which passes both the Bechdel Test and the Reverse Bechdel Test.

Madoka has around 4 named male characters. If it passes it'd be an incredibly flimsy pass.
Anyway Madoka is definitely a show created for a male audience and the topic creator obviously wants shoujo shows (3 of the shows they mentioned are shoujo shows).

Really I think the bigger deal among westerners is that the obligatory magical girl show slots are already filled up with Pretty Cure and Jewel Pet which aren't popular outside Japan and so they don't get brought up in topics like this.

Sailor Moon should be compared with Pretty Cure, Candy Candy with things like Beast Player Erin etc and Utena with things like Penguin Drum.
Madoka on the other hand is equivalent with shows like Puni Puni Poemy.
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