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Old 2011-11-22, 22:58   Link #21
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post
"Has anime really changed at all?"

Looks the same to me

EDIT: Anime has always been junk. The same proportion of junk shows back then would probably equal the same proportion of junk shows nowadays.
Except... the "junk" is garnishing far far more attention.
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Old 2011-11-22, 23:06   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post
"Has anime really changed at all?"

Looks the same to me
CHA-CHA AND SHERYL!! I WANT TO GLOMP THEM BOTH!

How can you resist the MOE SMILE? XD
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Old 2011-11-22, 23:30   Link #23
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Yes it has change the fanservice has gotten better so many different kinds of colored panties instead of just white
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Old 2011-11-23, 00:32   Link #24
Ermes Marana
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There are two main changes I'd like to suggest. The first change is just a shift in the types of shows that get made. For example:

1998:

Berserk
Cowboy Bebop
Trigun
Kenshin
Outlaw Star
Master Keaton
Hunter X Hunter

2010:

K-On!
Working!!
Hidamari Sketch
Sora no Oto
Toaru Kagaku no Railgun
Ore no Imouto
Koihime Musou

You can see that 1998 had lots of straight action/adventure shows, most of which are thoughtful/philosophical without being ironic. This type of show doesn't get made much any more (though Katanagatari, which I love, is nearly a fit).

While 2010 has lots of shows about cute girls aimed at men in their 20s, usually featuring daily life and fanservice. This type of show has exploded in popularity.

Which is better? Well, they're totally different types of shows, so it depends what you prefer. I happen to prefer the former, so I'm disappointed we get so few of those shows any more. But all it is is a shift in what is popular: Kenshin and Bebop are just as much aimed at an audience as K-On! and Ore no Imouto.


The second change is more than just a shift in popularity. In the years roughly 2000-2008, anime was different than ever before or since. The difference is that anime studios thought they had a chance to find a new audience, so they made a lot of shows that did not have an existing audience to justify their budget. In general, more shows were able to resist stereotypical otaku-bait elements, because they wanted a wider audience.

GitS:SAC, Monster, Paranoia Agent, Planetes, Seirei no Moribito, and probably Honey and Clover and Kino no Tabi all fall into this category.

But the reality is, while some succeeded, most of these shows never did find enough of an audience to support them. The plan failed, so eventually the studios went back to a focus on target audiences. That means moe elements snaking their way into more and more shows, more and more focus on characters that will sell to otaku, less focus on complex stories or anything for a wide audience.
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Old 2011-11-23, 01:02   Link #25
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Mmm I'm skeptical of making lists of shows like that because the possibility of selection bias is very, very, VERY high. If we're going to list titles, I'd rather someone compile a list of ALL the anime that aired in each year, come up with some relatively objective way of categorizing them, and then take some statistics. If you're just picking and comparing 7 shows a year from years that may have aired over 200, well, you can see why I'd be skeptical.

Neither agreeing nor disagreeing, just saying I wouldn't consider that strong evidence.

(hmm... what's an anime database that lets you list all shows by year? Though of course there's still bias to this method because anime that aired before the digital era are less likely to be in digital databases, while even the most obscure recent anime is bound to be listed somewhere)
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Old 2011-11-23, 01:12   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post

EDIT: Anime has always been junk. The same proportion of junk shows back then would probably equal the same proportion of junk shows nowadays.

most of the anime i've seen from '06 all the way to '10 (best summed up by moe boom/bust and post-moe imo) I think are comparable to that of da dirty south rap/crunk scene in quantity, quality and shallowness. Both I think are very shallow but its audience (including me) seem to... enjoy it

Last edited by flying ^; 2011-11-23 at 01:39.
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Old 2011-11-23, 01:24   Link #27
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I'd counter that there were shows like those in 1998 in 2010....save most of them were either bad or just no one cared...(just from BlogSuki's Thin Slice posts for 2010)
Cobra,
Shiki,
Sengoku Basara,
UraBoku,
Hakuouki Shinsengumi Kitan,
Rainbow 二舎六房の七人,
Senkou no Night Raid,
Giant Killing,
House of Five Leaves,
Ookamikakushi, and
Durarara.

Of those I think the only one anyone cared about was Durarara.

There are others as well that were not moe styled shows...but were fanservice shows, like
Seikon no Qwaser,
High School of the Dead, and perhaps
Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2011-11-23 at 01:36.
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Old 2011-11-23, 01:34   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
But the reality is, while some succeeded, most of these shows never did find enough of an audience to support them.
I've argued in other posts that the recession probably played a role as well. When markets shrink, producers inevitably turn to the most reliable and predictable types of shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
(hmm... what's an anime database that lets you list all shows by year?
AniDB allows you to search by year. Here's a list of shows that began airing in 1990, 2000, and 2010. (In all cases I limited the search to OVAs and TV series, excluded 18+ titles, and hid "synonyms.") You're welcome to draw whatever conclusions you wish.

The most striking feature of the 1990 list is the dominance of OVAs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Of those I think the only one anyone cared about was Durarara.
Personally I thought House of Five Leaves was one of the best shows I watched in 2010.
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Old 2011-11-23, 02:48   Link #29
Ermes Marana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'd counter that there were shows like those in 1998 in 2010....save most of them were either bad or just no one cared..

Most of the shows you listed don't fit. I'm talking about thoughtful, non-ironic action/adventures: the action/adventure is the main draw. House of Five Leaves is a good character drama, but it isn't a straightforward action/adventure. Katanagatari is an action/adventure, but is too ironic to fit.

If you are saying that nobody cares about the kind of shows I'm talking about anymore... that doesn't disagree with my point. These shows used to be popular, now cute girl shows made for twentysomething men are far more popular. It isn't a change in how the anime industry works, it is a change in what is popular.

Last edited by Ermes Marana; 2011-11-23 at 03:14.
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Old 2011-11-23, 04:52   Link #30
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eh, I'm going to dispute on Ermes Marana's list a bit:

I won't put Kenshin and HxH on that list since they are Shonen adaption, and unless one of some of current JUMP series stop air it's tough to argue that there should be new show for them especially there are currently more JUMP action shows on air than is ever had during the 90s with OP, Naruto, Bleach, Toriko, Gintama and not to mention new season of HxH. (not to mention Toriko, Gintama S2, HxH S2 are all new addition this year) Not only that, Kenshin was a carryover series that actually started in 1996 and HxH anime didn't begin to air until 1999 so both are not qualified to begin with.

With that being said, Berserk is a carryover, 2- cour series from fall 1997 season. So now the list down to 4 series, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Outlaw Star, and Master Keaton.

That's 1 series per season. You use 2010 as example, I can easily list 4 action/sci-fi/mecha/adventure/suspense series on 2010 not counting the JUMP titles:

(BTW, Railgun from last year was a OVA not TV, it was Index which is much more action oriented.)

Super Robot Taisen OG: The Inspector - fall
Star Driver: Kagayaki no Takuto - fall
Senkō no Night Raid - summer
Giant Killing - summer/fall
Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu - summer/fall
Nurarihyon no Mago - summer/fall
Seikimatsu Occult Gakuin - summer
Hakuouki: Hekketsu-roku - Shinsengumi Kitan - fall
Toaru Majutsu no Index - fall/winter
Durarara!! - winter
Heroman - summer
Rainbow: Nisha Rokubou no Shichinin - summer

and a few more...

I'm not even counting the 3 Marvel/Mad House release (Blade was this year), or movie/ovas like Break Blade, Black Lagoon: Roberta`s Blood Trail, etc. Anime DB that SeijiSensei listed is a good reference go check it yourself and see.


The bottom-line is that nowadays there are more anime airing on TV and at same time more genre than ever, but they are all still represented.

The difference was that compare to 1998, you (I mean western anime viewers) got exposed to more of mainstream anime series that you didn't get exposed 10, 15 years ago which made people think that the number of non-moe/harem series went up.

Not only that, 1998 was a known action year that might be best ever, with all three major action series all end up as commercial and critical success. Heck, some are even considered as classics. I mean really, what non-JUMP action series can you recall from 1995, 1996, 1997, or 1999?

Also keep in mind that the 20-30 something otaku that you blame for are the same teenager 10 years ago watching Trigun, Outlaw Star, and Cowboy Bepop and are the one that are watching the 2010 action series as well, they are the same crowd.

Just look at how Gundam Age was doing, and you'll realize that traditional action/mecha series are now only supported by the 20-40 otaku crowd you accuse of popularing moe/harem series.
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Old 2011-11-23, 08:50   Link #31
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Question: Has anime really changed at all?

Answer: Nope and in fact it getting worse. Nowadays it can be gold like Clannad or shit like S***** D***. Not to mention some otaku-only fanservice craps like Manyuu Hikenchou, Seikon no Qwaser, Togainu no Chi, Utau no Prince and Miracle Train. Yes both genders are equally guilty when it come to fanservice.
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Old 2011-11-23, 19:14   Link #32
Ermes Marana
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I don't agree with a lot of the shows you list, but I admit my category is too vague. You are correct that action/adventures still get made, even if they don't fit what I am thinking of.

However, I think you agree with me that popularity of types of shows has changed. The top sellers list for 2010 is filled with the type of show I listed for 2010. I can't find sales numbers for the old shows, but I know Cowboy Bebop series + movie sold well.

I definitely disagree with you saying there is more anime and more representation than ever:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post

The bottom-line is that nowadays there are more anime airing on TV and at same time more genre than ever, but they are all still represented.

Correction: there is more hentai than ever, but less non-hentai anime.

Search for non-hentai shows:

2004
2006
2007
2009
2010
2011

2004:
152 shows with 3+ eps
71 with 20+
211 overall

2006:
192 shows with 3+ eps
89 with 20+
290 overall

2007:
170 shows with 3+ eps
76 with 20+
260 overall

2009:
154 shows with 3+ eps
66 with 20+
262 overall

2010:
132 shows with 3+ eps
46 with 20+
248 overall

2011:
111 shows with 3+ eps (will go way up)


2006 still holds the record for the most shows overall, the most shows 3+ eps, and the most shows 20+ eps. Maybe 2011 will beat it, but so far it's on top.


And now consider, even though 2006 had more shows:

2006 had only 3 shows with ecchi at max weight.

2010 had 17 shows with ecchi at max weight.
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Old 2011-11-23, 20:29   Link #33
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Just to get this out of way, echhi is not hentai, unless there's a c#ck pounding p#ssy, it's not hentai. (sorry for the blatant use of words)

But, the problem here is how many of them are actually OVA and not TV. As SeijiSensei, there is a huge de-emphasis on OVA series (1-6 episodes) for past decade, at same time as I mention in a prior post that the emphasis on 1-cour series (11-13 episode) increases dramatically (ratio-wise) mostly duw to economic reason and competitiveness and the need to "test the water"

You don't see series that are more than 2-cours nowadays unless you are a JUMP title. This is most impact on shojo adaption, gone are the days of Kodomo no Omocha, where 10 volume manga yield you 8-cour (100+) episodes. or commitment of more than 2-cour on adaptions.

While I agree that the overall taste has shifted, the problem here wasn't hardcore otaku. Those otaku that people like Kameruka are blaming are also the ones that are supporting what was left of the shows you mentioned.

The crowds (20-40 otaku) that buys bishojo PVC models are the same as the crowd that are buying Gundam plamo and Cowboy Bepop-related PVC model. So to say they are at fault was hypocritical.

The problem here is actually the younger, new generation fans who are NOT considered as hardcore. They are the ones not buying the the merchandise without moe/ecchi/fan service.

The rating in Gundam Age is the most telling. The only demographic it manages to attract is the 20-40 otaku crowd. Compare to the commerical success junk (by hardcore standard) Destiny, the crowd loss in 10-19 males and female crowds were the difference.

Here is the post with the telling rating.

I just find that laughable that the ones bashing Japanese otaku for the recent anime trend in U.S. are the western otaku who didn't really know the real ACG landscape in the 80s and 90s.

Not only that the also forget about the fact that the Japanese otaku they are referring to has the same if not more history with ACG than they do. Only difference is that them also embraced the echhi/moe and wasn't biased like their western counterpart.

And that is what I'm arguing about.

The misconception here is tha Japanese Otaku = moe/ecchi when it was Japnases Otaku=anything ACG. The difference is Japansese casual fan becomes => moe/ecchi/JUMP

However, I would agree with theory that hardcore otaku are preventing new shows being make. But not because moe, but because their attachment to classics anime which cause more the old series to rerun and taking up timeslot for potential new shows.
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Old 2011-11-23, 20:53   Link #34
Ithekro
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The ones I usually hear complaining in person are the 50+ group that grew up on imported anime from the late 60s and through the 70s and early 80s. Their complaint is mostly the art shift from the 70s to the 90s. These are the groups that generally won't watch Evangelion and Akira isn't their thing. They never even got to the moe era, they rejected the new long before then (possibly with the introduction of Sailor Moon).

They were into Astro Boy, Kimba growing up, all the 70s Super Robot shows as teens. Space Battleship Yamato and Captain Harlock, the first Gundam, and up to probably Macross in their 20s. By the time they wer 30 they started not liking the shift in things and stopped watching for the most part.

If one of these older titles has a new release they might watch it, but if it diverts too much they will reject it.
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Old 2011-11-23, 22:23   Link #35
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But those are not the main target crowd anyway. Not to mention at time the market was in its infancy in Japan. The main disputed period with now seem to be late 80s' to 90's versus mid-2000s to now. And instead of semi-retired fans, it was current fans who are complaining and blaming other fans that went through the same period.

Anyway that made me remember something that happen a few years ago.

One time in work I remember a few co-workers in their 50s mentioned why there isn't great family wholesome cartoon like Snoopy, Tom & Jerry, Loony Toon, etc. They went on with rants that cartoon now are all flashy, violent, etc. Then another co-worker who was a few years older in her late 20s/early 30s with kid said, "do you realized that Snoop and Loony Toon are promoting bullying? and that Tom & Jerry are cruel bloodfest?" She then went on about how at least now that the actions in cartoon are impossible to duplicate in real life and how there is no way in hell she would let her kids watching Tom & Jerry and co.
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Old 2011-11-24, 02:11   Link #36
asaqe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post
"Has anime really changed at all?"

Looks the same to me

EDIT: Anime has always been junk. The same proportion of junk shows back then would probably equal the same proportion of junk shows nowadays.
One is meant for kids and accidentally caters to doujinshi artists. The other breaks the middleman of the children's crowd and went straight for otaku appeal

This is what I felt I was ignorant about during my high school years is the fact I didn't noticed my behavior was leaning towards watching otaku oriented anime. The type that gives you that you are being "creepy" watching anime with cute underage girls being sexualized in almost every moment.

Anime has changed for the worse in the western world, as the former big 3/jump fans stop watching anime it will be increasingly difficult to introduce new anime to new kids who gets the horrible misconception all anime now is creepy stuff that is barely legal.
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Old 2011-11-24, 03:48   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
I don't agree with a lot of the shows you list, but I admit my category is too vague. You are correct that action/adventures still get made, even if they don't fit what I am thinking of.

However, I think you agree with me that popularity of types of shows has changed. The top sellers list for 2010 is filled with the type of show I listed for 2010. I can't find sales numbers for the old shows, but I know Cowboy Bebop series + movie sold well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
2010:

K-On!
Working!!
Hidamari Sketch
Sora no Oto
Toaru Kagaku no Railgun
Ore no Imouto
Koihime Musou


Top Sellers for 2010 (Above 10k sales dvd/bd average)


2,888m Kyoto Animation  Pony Canyon   K-ON!!
1,415m PA Works  Aniplex  Angel Beats!
1,360m AIC  Aniplex  Ore no Imouto ga Konna ni Kawaii Wake ga
1,499m Brains Base  Aniplex  Durarara!!
*,678m A1 Pictures  Aniplex  Working!!
1,033m  JC Staff  Geneon  To Aru Majutsu no Index II
*,677m AIC  Kadokawa  Strike Witches 2
*,551m Production IG  Pony Canyon  Sengoku Basara 2
*,314m Studio Deen  Geneon  Hakuouki Hekketsuroku
*,415m Studio Deen  Media Factory  Hetalia World Series


Top Sellers for 1998 (Above 10k sales dvd/bd average)


1998 Sunrise Cowboy Bebop
1998  Madhouse Cardcaptor Sakura
1998  Pastel Initial D
1998  Sunrise Brain Powered

Last edited by Brimstone; 2011-11-24 at 03:58.
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Old 2011-11-24, 04:09   Link #38
Ermes Marana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
Top Sellers for 2010 (Above 10k sales dvd/bd average)
The list I saw was what sold in 2010.

Top sellers for 2010, from Rank Ohkoku:

1.K-ON!!
2.A Certain Scientific Railgun
3.Bakemonogatari
4.Working!!
5.Angel Beats!
6.Hidamari Sketch
7.Seikon no Qwaser
8.Shin Koihime Musou
9.Ikki Tousen Xtreme Xecutor
10.GA Art Design Class

Almost every single one is primarily ecchi or moe girls aimed at men in their 20s. Bakemonogatari is sort of an exception, but even it has significant elements of the above.

You have to admit, that's a pretty brutal top 10.
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Old 2011-11-24, 04:15   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
The list I saw was what sold in 2010.

Top sellers for 2010, from Rank Ohkoku:

1.K-ON!!
2.A Certain Scientific Railgun
3.Bakemonogatari
4.Working!!
5.Angel Beats!
6.Hidamari Sketch
7.Seikon no Qwaser
8.Shin Koihime Musou
9.Ikki Tousen Xtreme Xecutor
10.GA Art Design Class

Almost every single one is primarily ecchi or moe girls aimed at men in their 20s. Bakemonogatari is sort of an exception, but even it has significant elements of the above.

You have to admit, that's a pretty brutal top 10.
If it's being sold in 2010, that means the show started in 2009 right?


*78,671  3,558m  15 ep  2009  Shaft   Aniplex   Bakemonogatari
*43,883  2,309m  14 ep  2009  Kyoto Animation  Pony Canyon  K-ON!
*24,494  1,482m  24 ep  2009  JC Staff  Geneon  To Aru Kagaku no Railgun
*23,287  *,938m  52 ep  2009  Studio Deen  Media Factory  Hetalia Axis Powers
*19,064  *,940m  14 ep  2009  Kyoto Animation  Kadokawa  Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu (2009)
*14,641  *,221m  38 ep  2009  Kyoto Animation  Kadokawa  Suzumiya Haruhi-chan no Yuuutsu/Nyoro~n☆Churuya-san
*12,720  *,775m  51 ep  2009  Sunrise  Aniplex  Gintama Season 4
*12,327  1,230m  64 ep  2009  Bones  Aniplex  Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist (second series, 2009)
*12,151  *,625m  16 ep  2009  Bones  Aniplex  Darker Than Black -Ryuusei no Gemini-
*10,339  *,419m  12 ep  2009  Arms Media Factory  Queen's Blade: Rurou no Senshi
*10,315  *,325m  13 ep  2009  Brains Base  Aniplex  Zoku Natsume Yuujin-chou
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Old 2011-11-24, 04:19   Link #40
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so this shows that of the top selling titles in 2010 have more than just pure moe stuff, granted it was still well represented, but there is a good mix between genres. While 1998 also includes a moe title in CCS.

BTW, asaqe, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Are you saying that you were one of the misguided one before and have now see the light or you ranting about the JUMP fanboys. (no offense, I like JUMP myself, I', talking about the ones with "@#$ is the best, it's the most mature, everything else is crap" and the ones that can't differentiate shonen from seinen)
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