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Old 2011-11-30, 21:47   Link #161
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
But with that being said, that didn't seem to impact the fact Nodame, Bloody Monday, etc still got adapted into drama. Japan's got enough mix-blooded celebrities to make it happen it they were set on it.
Or just rely on suspension of belief. How could anyone imagine Takenaka Naoko as Stresemann? (Especially because he's such a well-known comic actor.)

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Old 2011-11-30, 21:51   Link #162
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot
I guess you're going to try and list TTGL and a bunch of random robot shows next.
Because Gurren Lagann totally wasn't a super robot show...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Discussions on moe always go down this muddy road, that's why it's both annoying and entertaining at the same time.
It's the fault of the anti-moe posters this time around. Undertaker brought up a whole bunch of legitimate examples and all he's got back is a tut tut.
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Old 2011-11-30, 21:51   Link #163
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Welp, looks like this discussion is going on a turn for the worse.

Discussions on moe always go down this muddy road, that's why it's both annoying and entertaining at the same time.
If you feel someone is posting in a very short sighted manner how about acting a little less pretentious and actually pointing out why? We don't need this sort of attitude around here. It just makes the atmosphere worst to see these sort of things.
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Old 2011-11-30, 21:54   Link #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
Obviously meant as an idol anime and a super robot show
Gunbusters doesn't pander to Otakus?
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Old 2011-11-30, 21:58   Link #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Because Gurren Lagann totally wasn't a super robot show...
Because TTGL totally didn't air back at 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Gunbusters doesn't pander to Otakus?
Otaku pandering =/= fanservice
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Old 2011-11-30, 21:59   Link #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
Because TTGL totally didn't air back at 2007.
2007 is so far away.

Gunbuster and its co. didn't exactly come out every year either, if you'd care enough to remember.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:04   Link #167
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If you feel someone is posting in a very short sighted manner how about acting a little less pretentious and actually pointing out why?
I really can't say anything, because it's off-topic and it might hurt the feelings of others.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:04   Link #168
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Well for Super Robots there was Mazinkaizer SKL, this year.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:08   Link #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I really can't say anything, because it's off-topic and it might hurt the feelings of others.
Well, as they say, if you have nothing nice to say, don't bother. :3 Otherwise, pick a more constructive tone. There's always a way to do it without trying to be mean, if you don't make it personal.

It's just not a good idea to insinuate negative things at all about the discussion in general because people involved might think you're talking about them.

As for the topic itself, well changing tastes in the target audience are just that. Moe is merely a symptom, for better or for worse.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:25   Link #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
2007 is so far away.

Gunbuster and its co. didn't exactly come out every year either, if you'd care enough to remember.
I know exactly when both came out. It is you who didn't read a few pages back to understand the origins of this dispute. Or you did, but chose to ignore it.

I stand behind my words. The diversity died out roughly at 2007/2008. There are genres that flat out disappeared or transformed into derivative works. Maybe there is an odd OVA or movie for some 30 year old franchise, but those anime are nothing but walking corpses.

Sure if you people believe these are all going strong still, and we have lots of non-Japan and non-high school settings, then be my guest. But when I ask for some good'ol' scifi and get recommended things like Deadman Wonderland and Togainu Chi, sorry if I don't feel convinced.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:29   Link #171
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The diversity died out roughly at 2007/2008. There are genres that flat out disappeared or transformed into derivative works. Maybe there is an odd OVA or movie for some 30 year old franchise, but those anime are nothing but walking corpses.

Sure if you people believe these are all going strong still, and we have lots of non-Japan and non-high school settings, then be my guest. But when I ask for some good'ol' scifi and get recommended things like Deadman Wonderland and Togainu Chi, sorry if I don't feel convinced.
This is no longer about the quality of anime series throughout the decades. It's about personal taste, and yours is still stuck in the 70s and 80s.

Considering how outside factors contribute to the "decline" that which you speak of (economic crises, changes in marketing trends, piracy, the Internet, changes in the fanbase itself), there's nothing we can do about it but to appreciate what anime series we have right now.

Anime does change, but it doesn't mean that we should not.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:30   Link #172
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I want to say that if we're just going to get into show recommendations at this point ("shows in certain un-represented genres"), that's probably better served in the Suggestions forum. I think this whole list battle thing is going to be pretty pointless because no matter what one person comes up with, someone else will come up with a reason why that doesn't count or isn't good enough or whatever.

I think it's pretty clear that there are some shows in just about every genre from time to time, but what's popular and trending has changed and will continue changing. Expecting wide variety and bold innovations in these now-less-popular genres is likely a fool's errand; what you generally get are minor productions that try to appeal to older fans based entirely on nostalgia, and not based on a real desire to push the envelope or be a "bold new vision for anime", as I think would be required to satisfy long-time fans of that particular motif or style.


As an attempt to try to drive towards a conclusion to this topic, let me offer two thoughts.

To the question of "has anime really changed at all?", I would offer one thing that seems absolutely clear: the audience has changed. Even this year's audience isn't exactly the same as last year, never mind 5 years, 10 years, or more. Some of us stuck around, and plenty of new people arrive, and the overall composition of the audience is constantly changing.

The corollary to this question is the problem that has been exposed in this thread: we haven't changed. Or to be more specific, not all of us who stuck around changed in the same way the current "composite" audience's tastes did (as evidenced by the shows created to meet the audience's demand).

I think some people would like anime to "grow along with them" -- to preserve the things they liked about anime, evolve in ways that build on that foundation, and keep abiding by the same familiar priorities and values that were present in "anime's golden era", whenever that was. And I'm sure that many would offer "objective reasons" why anime would be better off for this. But anime isn't evolving along a linear path (as an individual person might do); it's constantly re-inventing itself with every season. Even if shows build on familiar motifs, themes, or styles, it's always seeking to tap into that new fan just entering the scene and appeal to that segment of the ever-evolving market it feels it can corner. Every single year will be the best anime has ever been to someone. And five/ten/twenty years from now, someone will lament that anime has never been as good as it was in 2011.

I think that if people look hard enough, and are open-minded enough, they will find something to enjoy in every anime season. But it's a wide wide world out there; there's lots more than anime to enjoy. If the anime industry is indeed heading to hell in a handbasket and it's all because they didn't appeal to people like you, then I'll guess you'll have the last laugh... but in the meantime, there's not much we can do other than either accept that it is what it is and decide where to go from there.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:35   Link #173
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Thing about sci-fi is that it is a rather small group of fans of it. Smaller than most of the others. You can see this even in Western media. New space based shows are not common. Most of them either die in their first season, or (in recent years) are a reboot or spinoff of an existing sci-fi show.

For every Stargate or Babylon 5 you get a half dozen Mercy Point or Space Rangers, or made for TV movies like Star Command.

The same is true for anime. Save that mecha is more popular than western style spaceship only based series and tends to mix with it a lot. Macross and I guess Gundam are examples of that.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:43   Link #174
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^ The problem with sci-fi is that most of them focus on space, instead of trying to go for earth-based sci-fi, like the Science half of Toaru Majutsu no Index or the basic concept of Steins;Gate.

Most sci-fi series often involve a spaceship, aliens, and epic space fights. That gets stale over time.
EDIT: Most anime series in this season are actually sci-fi, although do genres really matter right now? I'm starting to see some series that looks like one genre but is actually another.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:49   Link #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think some people would like anime to "grow along with them" -- to preserve the things they liked about anime, evolve in ways that build on that foundation, and keep abiding by the same familiar priorities and values that were present in "anime's golden era", whenever that was. And I'm sure that many would offer "objective reasons" why anime would be better off for this. But anime isn't evolving along a linear path (as an individual person might do); it's constantly re-inventing itself with every season. Even if shows build on familiar motifs, themes, or styles, it's always seeking to tap into that new fan just entering the scene and appeal to that segment of the ever-evolving market it feels it can corner. Every single year will be the best anime has ever been to someone. And five/ten/twenty years from now, someone will lament that anime has never been as good as it was in 2011.

I think that if people look hard enough, and are open-minded enough, they will find something to enjoy in every anime season. But it's a wide wide world out there; there's lots more than anime to enjoy. If the anime industry is indeed heading to hell in a handbasket and it's all because they didn't appeal to people like you, then I'll guess you'll have the last laugh... but in the meantime, there's not much we can do other than either accept that it is what it is and decide where to go from there.
In spite of what you might say or think though, I think there's definite credence to the idea that the anime industry post 2007 has seen a massive recession back to shows that cater strictly to domestic markets and not just domestic, but also even more niche markets as well. Of course these are the people spending the money and so that industry will follow them and make shows that cater to the people who actually buy their products, but some people fell in love with anime in times where anime cared a little more about than just your everyday otaku in the audience, it can be a little jarring to see the bulk of the shows being made to suddenly fall out of one's interests.

I think the anime industry is back on the upswing again in 2011, but for me who has been an anime fan as far as i can remember, I've rarely seen a time like 2008-2010 where the industry was just so afraid to do anything other than tired out formulas and ideas, and they catered specifically to one type of market that was just so, so limited.

It's ok for ideas and things to change in an industry but what I think happened in these years in particular for me was not so much a shift in market to what tastes are getting catered to, but more so the market actually cutting down on who exactly they're catering to. Instead of catering to A, B, C, and D, they were choosing to only go for audience D. I didn't really view this as healthy for the industry personally, so I'm very glad to see in 2011 again shows that are starting to be able to appeal to more than just D.

Sure people can try to find good stuff out there no matter the season, and honestly I personally have seen an expansion of the types of shows I can enjoy over the years because I don't think I could've maintained myself as an anime fan otherwise this last few years, but there's definitely a case to be made about the industry simply receding into smaller markets more so than the markets just shifting over.
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:58   Link #176
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I'll conclude my participation in this thread by saying I hope the forums are still around in 15 years so that I can participate in a thread titled "did anime die when moe died?" and have someone say "where are moe shows like k-on! and harushi?Now its only all about *insert future anime trend here*"

PS:maybe that someone will be me and of course there'll be a huge debate on the word "moe" because even 15 years from now people still won't agree on it
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Old 2011-11-30, 23:02   Link #177
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As with any industry, you go where the money is. If you don't, you usually end up either going out of business, or become a specialty shop, and that can also end up going out of business if there are too many of those kinds of shops. Since there isn't much money in speciality anime, such "shops" can only get away with making a few items without losing money. Unless you are the only source in town, then you won't be making much. The only other option is to make use of big name speciality anime of the past that gets the nostalgia factor for a larger crowd that any new show of that speciality type. (think if in the far future there is no market for magical girl shows. The exception would probably be a remake of something like Sailor Moon)

Sort of like a company that tries to make Cartrivision versions of modern movies or TV shows. That would be a very limited market...since I doubt anyone born after 1977 would even have heard of one before and even those from earlier might not remember it. (it was an earlier tape recording and playing system before the Betamax and VHS were invented). Same with vinyl records. There actually is a market for those still, but it is extremely limited.

If not enough people are going to buy our product it to be worth your while....you don't make it. That or you become a web-based series that can be made for "free" on your spare time.
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Old 2011-11-30, 23:15   Link #178
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Has anime changed? Maybe. The trend on protagonist characterization certainly have.

There currently seems to be an increase of the "ordinary student guy", the one who at the beginning is perfectly normal, maybe even bland. nothing special, no great talents, not good at making friends, some even going so far as being losers.

And then the "call" happens, something like accidentally finding an artifact of HAXX that suddenly makes him a major player in an epic war.

But...he stays normal. He joins the adventure and kicks ass, but that's because he has the HAXX power to kick ass, not because he's experienced or trained.

I miss shows like Patlabor, where the heroes were not the ones with some uber-powerful mechs - with shows today, whenever a hero kicks ass I tend to think "that's not him being awesome, that's his mech being awesome". And the protagonists are not the Chosen One or someone who accidentally found a Plot Item of Destiny, they're people who consciously enlist for the job and become good at what they do because they constantly practice for it.

Just a theory, but I think this is another type of otaku-pandering. With these kind of protags, the viewers then got their wish fulfillment, and when the question "why can't I be awesome?" arise, the answer became "hey, I just haven't get the call of destiny yet!"

Now get this straight, this kind of wish fulfillment has been there for a long time, as early as Doraemon, maybe even older. But there seems to be a great increase on these kind of protagonist lately. Somewhat related, there is a sudden spike of harem heroes who collect chicks just by being nice - he's not particularity athletic, nor is he smart, and more often than not even aware of the attention he's getting. And yet girls swoon every time he's there.

Is this trend good or bad? Well your mileage will definitely vary on this one, but as for me, I have far more respect on those who earn their place that those who got it on a silver platter, so you can guess my opinion on the subject
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Old 2011-11-30, 23:16   Link #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Or just rely on suspension of belief. How could anyone imagine Takenaka Naoko as Stresemann? (Especially because he's such a well-known comic actor.)
second that, but Takenaka Naoko did do a hell of a job as Stresemann.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
Because TTGL totally didn't air back at 2007.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
2007 is so far away.

Gunbuster and its co. didn't exactly come out every year either, if you'd care enough to remember.
And this is what I'm talking about, since this thread started, the anti-moe group has been consistently narrowing the years and claiming there aren't any shows outside moe/fan-service/harem and when they got rebuffed, they just disappear, Irenicus pointed out the obvious and they go all defensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
Obviously meant as an idol anime and a super robot show. I guess you're going to try and list TTGL and a bunch of random robot shows next.
Then you could have say so instead of using broad terms like adventure and historical.

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Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
And you did say exactly that. Stringing different peoples opinions together in order to try and build an argument. Then generalizing it. Tut, tut.
If tut,tut is the best you can do, I guess there's not much else to say.

Though I do want to ask, what other idol anime have you seen other than Full Moon?

I got REC, Glass Mask, or if you are into BL, GRAVITATION, and maybe Kaleido Star (but if Kaleido Star count then Fresh Precure count as well), before 2006. that's 4 shows I can remember in 25 years from 1980-2005.

Since 06 there are Nana, Kirarin Revolution, Skip Beat, and Idol Master that's 4 idol-wannabe shows in past 5 years not counting Fresh Precure.

BTW, Full Moon was consider as a magical girl anime as well so there was nothing wrong with my suggestions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
Otaku pandering =/= fanservice
So what are you implying? Cybuster is totally a Otaku thing with fan service to boot just as Infinite Stratos is aiming for. Otherwise the series would be on TV instead of OVA when it was released back then.

And on that front, if you would have read my previous posts, both LotGH and Lodoss (the original) are OVA as well and were catered to the same Otaku.

Deelit & Pirotess were definition of hotness back then and got its own shares of models and posters been made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well for Super Robots there was Mazinkaizer SKL, this year.
And even that was cater to Otaku with OVA release. And while in the same topic Super Robot Taisen OG (both series) also have Super Robots in addition to Real Robots.

Though with that being said, I would agree that there is a lack of Super Robot anime, but that's mainly due to the shift toward Real Robots more than anything and has been that way since mid/late 90s.


Spoiler for Long Quote::


I do agree with this, but that also means that international market, or more specifically U.S. market, (since European market seems to have similar taste based on it's manga trend and let's not even mentioned the East Asian countries which is pretty much the same as Japan) is not keeping up with the change.

With that been said, it still comes down to money, the recent certain niche genre to disappear is simple, no one is supporting it. Instead of blaming Otaku (who are actually the one that keep what's out there alive) and moe/harem/fan-service, maybe they should blame themselves for not buying the toys and and related merchandise themselves.
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Old 2011-11-30, 23:22   Link #180
Marcus H.
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I miss shows like Patlabor, where the heroes were not the ones with some uber-powerful mechs - with shows today, whenever a hero kicks ass I tend to think "that's not him being awesome, that's his mech being awesome". And the protagonists are not the Chosen One or someone who accidentally found a Plot Item of Destiny, they're people who consciously enlist for the job and become good at what they do because they constantly practice for it.
Most light novels have this concept, actually. There's Yuji from Shakugan no Shana, Touma from Toaru Majutsu no Index, Saito from The Familiar of Zero and Kirito from SAO — all Badass Normals. However, I think this is just a side-effect of adopting too many light novels, actually.
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