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Old 2011-11-26, 05:46   Link #121
Alchemist007
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Old 2011-11-26, 08:00   Link #122
Jouten
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Originally Posted by rpgman1 View Post
The title of this chapter says BeLIEve, so what Ginjo says could possibly be a lie (he said that about the badge's true purpose). Why go through all the trouble of pouring reiatsu into the sword and restore Ichigo's powers? Probably Ginjo will steal some of Ichigo's power when he goes Bankai anyway. Problem is that Ichigo seems to be left out in the dark about everything in every arc so far, but his resolve is still going strong.
I don't think Ginjo lied. He could knew that Ukitake gave Ichigo the badge and exactly what he said to him. Still weird though and I still think even if it is true it isn't that great of a shocker to let Ichigo turn against soul society
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Old 2011-11-26, 13:50   Link #123
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:30   Link #124
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If Ichi did go on a rampage in Hollow form that would be awesome but, I dont really see that happening. Gin did say the Captains were leaving Ichi to die but, thinking back on what Byakuya did and said makes me think otherwise. How Kubo hyped that up was fairly descent how after Gin made the statement you get a little cut scene of the Captains. I believe that there were some truth to Gins words tho how much is hard to ascertain
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Old 2011-11-26, 15:22   Link #125
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Tuberculosis was only a setback!

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Au contraire! It's his power!
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Old 2011-11-26, 16:37   Link #126
Jouten
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Originally Posted by AvalonCode View Post
If Ichi did go on a rampage in Hollow form that would be awesome but, I dont really see that happening. Gin did say the Captains were leaving Ichi to die but, thinking back on what Byakuya did and said makes me think otherwise. How Kubo hyped that up was fairly descent how after Gin made the statement you get a little cut scene of the Captains. I believe that there were some truth to Gins words tho how much is hard to ascertain
Question is: Did Ichigo get his Hollow powers back, too?
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Old 2011-11-26, 17:32   Link #127
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I dont know that yet. I would assume so since FB is hollow based ^. In any case Ive been watching the anime and I must say that its a lot better looking at this ARC than reading it. Well its still boring but, the story itself seems better animated
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Old 2011-11-27, 06:46   Link #128
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And once again I'll tell you that my complaint is that Kubo is a shite planner and not that he doesn't plan at all. This is probably the best example yet.
How? How is this the best example? Since there are loads of manga hints from YEARS ago that leads up to this very moment

Didn't you get what Ginjou said? Whether Ichigo wants to be or not , he's SS's bitch. If he does anything they don't like, his ass is dead.

It's not so much that they're observing him, they always have been. They knew about the menos he wounded when he was still using Rukia's powers.

He has to follow their dictates or DIE. He has no choice and that's how Isshin and Urahara "took his future away". No one ever told him that and that's why Ginjou is pissed because he's the same.

Ichigo BELONGS to SS and he doesn't have a say in it
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Old 2011-11-27, 06:55   Link #129
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Since there are loads of manga hints from YEARS ago that leads up to this very moment
....seriously? I will be needing them LOADS of hints.
Quote:
He has to follow their dictates or DIE.
Or so says Ginjou. Thus far, SS has never even asked anything of Ichigo, more like the other way around...who helped Ichigo infiltrate HM, who battled Aizen alongside Ichigo, who gave him back his flippin' powers, and more importantly, do you seriously think Ichigo was unhappy these past months just because he couldn't see Rukia? He's friends with a lot of the gotei 13, hell they've even seen his room :P
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Old 2011-11-27, 07:19   Link #130
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
....seriously? I will be needing them LOADS of hints
There's loads of them being shown right now. If I took the time to get them all would you take it seriously or dismiss it?

The strange reactions of Chad, Ishida and even Afro-Shinigami
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Or so says Ginjou.
Thus far Ginjou hasn't lied. He has always been truthful. When he was under the effects of BOE. He told what he thought was the truth. Urahara and Isshin have been shrouded in secrecy. They are the ones who tried to keep the truth from Ichigo. If they had told him the truth, Ginjou couldn't have mind-screwed him.

So far it's only those closest to him that lied...

Ishida, Orihime, Chad, Isshin, Urahara and Co. Omission is the same as a lie. I think that's why the title is called BeLIEve...because everything he believed about SS has been a lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Thus far, SS has never even asked anything of Ichigo, more like the other way around
.

Hah? So far SS has never done anything Ichigo has ever asked them. He had to go against them to get shit done and because he's valuable to them, they helped him.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
..who helped Ichigo infiltrate HM,
Urahara. The same guy that lied to him about Rukia's execution and withheld information about Aizen. The same guy who turned him into a hybrid without his knowledge or consent

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
who battled Aizen alongside Ichigo
The same people that said "you're our only hope because you haven't seen his Shikai" AND most of them had a personal beef with Aizen

Again this is not friendship and camaraderie more like "using a person" like Yamaji told Ichigo, they will not sacrifice everything for one person.

If Ichigo couldn't be used to their benefit they would have left his ass out there alone. Most of them--there are few that are friends with him. Zarakai and Ikkaku just like to fight so you can't say they're great friends either.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
who gave him back his flippin' powers
After 17 months...Once he was needed again. If they could have done it before why did they wait till now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
and more importantly, do you seriously think Ichigo was unhappy these past months just because he couldn't see Rukia?
Do you really want to ask me that? I am an IchiRuki shipper

No. He was unhappy for the most part, because he couldn't protect his family, friends, and any random person who needed it

It's
what he does. He saves people

BUT he also grieved because he lost his "partnership" with Rukia. Sure they'd always be friends but no longer would they be a team. His connection was an important one. Besides he's only ever CRIED when Rukia is lost to him. Take that how you will...

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
He's friends with a lot of the gotei 13, hell they've even seen his room :P
Someone needs to learn the difference between friends and acquaintances
Shuu-chan was in house and I wouldn't call them friends


Ichigo has been a "pawn" of Aizen, Urahara & SS the entire time
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
What is the point of handing out the badge in the first place? If it is given to troublemakers just so that they can be executed -later-, might as well do it on the spot and save the world some years of trouble.
Didn't Aizen's "Pimping for Dummies" handbook teach you anything? You're enemies can be used for your benefit. See if you have a use for them and if they serve no purpose. That's when you kill them
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Old 2011-11-27, 10:30   Link #131
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DAT BAN-KAI!

Next chapter Ichigo get's his beatdown with Ginjou still continuing to talk.

Also, captains tuberculosis is the true villain?...Buéno....I guess I now understand why Wonderweiss (had to google his name ugh) who Tousen said is attracted to "pure" things and despise "filthy" things first order of business was to take out the "trash", that being captain tuberculosis himself. Or maybe he just wanted to cure his tuberculosis but had a weird way to go about it.

Just you wait, captain tuberculosis's bankai will cure his tuberculosis, then he'll start owning everybody with these stats
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-11-27, 11:28   Link #132
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How? How is this the best example? Since there are loads of manga hints from YEARS ago that leads up to this very moment
Let's be clear on this. Before the fullbringer arc there were a grand total of two one-page and incredibly vague hints that had no discernable effect on the plot, over the course of 240 odd chapters. Is that enough explanation or do you want me to go into more detail on how he should have hinted this revelation?

Quote:
Didn't you get what Ginjou said? Whether Ichigo wants to be or not , he's SS's bitch. If he does anything they don't like, his ass is dead.

It's not so much that they're observing him, they always have been. They knew about the menos he wounded when he was still using Rukia's powers.

He has to follow their dictates or DIE. He has no choice and that's how Isshin and Urahara "took his future away". No one ever told him that and that's why Ginjou is pissed because he's the same.

Ichigo BELONGS to SS and he doesn't have a say in it
And yet Ichigo has done nothing but earned their gratitude despite disobeying them and going into Heuco Mundo and has never once had his freedom limited. Hard to see what's so wrong. When Ichigo took that Shinigami badge, he knew he was making a deal to act not just on behalf of Soul Society but as a representative. To assume that he would be able to do whatever the hell he'd feel like (which is what he did anyway) is incredibly silly. He's a Shinigami Representative and therefore has responsibilities that include following Soul Society's orders. Even if it's true that he was Soul Society's bitch (and we know he wasn't) it's still natural to see why Soul Society would want to have that level of control on a walking unstable nuke that has a mind of it's own. All that hinting for a revelation that isn't even that big of deal...
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Last edited by Haak; 2011-11-27 at 11:54.
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Old 2011-11-27, 15:37   Link #133
AvalonCode
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Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
DAT BAN-KAI!

Next chapter Ichigo get's his beatdown with Ginjou still continuing to talk.

Also, captains tuberculosis is the true villain?...Buéno....I guess I now understand why Wonderweiss (had to google his name ugh) who Tousen said is attracted to "pure" things and despise "filthy" things first order of business was to take out the "trash", that being captain tuberculosis himself. Or maybe he just wanted to cure his tuberculosis but had a weird way to go about it.

Just you wait, captain tuberculosis's bankai will cure his tuberculosis, then he'll start owning everybody with these stats
Spoiler:
Yea I can see Ichi still getting pwned. Ukitake doesnt have TB imo. Its a front just like Aizen being super nice was a front. Hell all the Captains having BANKAI is a frickin front
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Old 2011-11-27, 19:14   Link #134
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IMO Kubo needs to come up with an excuse why Ukitake, Shunsui and Unohana don't use their Bankai and that's by turning them into the bad guys (If Ukitake is a bad guy then Shunsui sure as hell is too)
And I still don't think that SS observing Ichigo is such a big deal. They observe everyone of their members. Regular Shinigami can't even go to the human world without permission and Ichigo can do whatever he wants. Out of all Shinigami he has the most freedom, even being able to have an everyday life. There would be really no reason for Ichigo to turn against SS. I just hope that it turns out that Ginjo is just to immature to deal with this stuff and Ichigo tells him that.
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Old 2011-11-28, 00:29   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
Didn't you get what Ginjou said? Whether Ichigo wants to be or not , he's SS's bitch. If he does anything they don't like, his ass is dead.
Ya, if he disobeyed some kind of order like "don't go to HM" they would totally kill him... Oh wait... ya that happened... and they didn't even try to stop him despite knowing where he is at all times and being able to cut off his powers at any time. And considering the situation he was charging into they had no good reason to just let him do as he pleased in that situation

Oh, also even though they've been tracking all his movements they never knew that he was meeting with a group of criminal exiles... you'd think that might warrant some kind of suspicion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jouten View Post
IMO Kubo needs to come up with an excuse why Ukitake, Shunsui and Unohana don't use their Bankai and that's by turning them into the bad guys (If Ukitake is a bad guy then Shunsui sure as hell is too)
And I still don't think that SS observing Ichigo is such a big deal. They observe everyone of their members. Regular Shinigami can't even go to the human world without permission and Ichigo can do whatever he wants. Out of all Shinigami he has the most freedom, even being able to have an everyday life. There would be really no reason for Ichigo to turn against SS. I just hope that it turns out that Ginjo is just to immature to deal with this stuff and Ichigo tells him that.
Indeed... as far as we've seen, the only reason SS would need to use the badge to take out ichigo is if he actually went full betrayal/evil on them... no one was forcing him to even work; he could have said "fuck it" and retired from fighting and they would not have done a damn thing. All things considered, what SS was doing was entirely sensible; he's basically a walking WMD... you don't allow something like that to walk around unchecked.
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Old 2011-11-28, 11:37   Link #136
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
There's loads of them being shown right now. If I took the time to get them all would you take it seriously or dismiss it?
Matter of fact, I'd seriously consider them, provided they have a basis.

Quote:
Thus far Ginjou hasn't lied. He has always been truthful. When he was under the effects of BOE. He told what he thought was the truth. Urahara and Isshin have been shrouded in secrecy. They are the ones who tried to keep the truth from Ichigo. If they had told him the truth, Ginjou couldn't have mind-screwed him.

So far it's only those closest to him that lied...

Ishida, Orihime, Chad, Isshin, Urahara and Co. Omission is the same as a lie. I think that's why the title is called BeLIEve...because everything he believed about SS has been a lie.
You say that omission is the same as a lie, and that Ginjou hasn't lied...Ginjou who pretended to "run into" Ichigo, who forgot to mention he cut down Ishida, and who has been shifting Ichigo's attention from "trust me" to "don't trust those around you", namely Isshin and Urahara. Speaking of Isshin, he already offered to explain everything to Ichigo, who told him to let him know when he's ready.

Quote:
Hah? So far SS has never done anything Ichigo has ever asked them. He had to go against them to get shit done and because he's valuable to them, they helped him.
IIRC the gate to HM opened under Genryuusai's orders, who left the assignment to Urahara, and let's not forget about the whole matter of fake Karakura town, which SS protected with their lives.


Quote:
Urahara. The same guy that lied to him about Rukia's execution and withheld information about Aizen. The same guy who turned him into a hybrid without his knowledge or consent
Rukia was getting executed alright, he didn't lie about it. As for Ichigo going vizard, remember why Urahara let Ichigo fight Renji and Byakuya in the first place, and he gave Ichigo fair warning that the path to awaken his own powers was a perilous one.


Quote:
The same people that said "you're our only hope because you haven't seen his Shikai" AND most of them had a personal beef with Aizen
Nothing wrong with that, imagine what it would be like if Ichigo had to fight against ALL of the espada with only Chad and Ishida to help him out.

Quote:
Again this is not friendship and camaraderie more like "using a person" like Yamaji told Ichigo, they will not sacrifice everything for one person.

If Ichigo couldn't be used to their benefit they would have left his ass out there alone. Most of them--there are few that are friends with him. Zarakai and Ikkaku just like to fight so you can't say they're great friends either.
What about Renji, Ganju, Byakuya and Rukia? (let's not forget she's part of the 6th division as well).

Quote:
After 17 months...Once he was needed again. If they could have done it before why did they wait till now?
That, we don't know about...the procedure could have taken a whole year, it's not like Ginjou appears->make a sword for Ichigo->go give him back his powers.

Quote:
Ichigo has been a "pawn" of Aizen, Urahara & SS the entire time
I'll leave this be, since we don't know why Aizen had said he knew about Ichigo since his birth...

Quote:
Didn't Aizen's "Pimping for Dummies" handbook teach you anything? You're enemies can be used for your benefit. See if you have a use for them and if they serve no purpose. That's when you kill them
Aizen was a sick person...I doubt Ukitake is sick in that kind of way Also highly doubt they'd let dangerous elements roam around, when there's a certain underground facility for criminals, as shown in the pendulum arc.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:08   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
How? How is this the best example? Since there are loads of manga hints from YEARS ago that leads up to this very moment

Didn't you get what Ginjou said? Whether Ichigo wants to be or not , he's SS's bitch. If he does anything they don't like, his ass is dead.

It's not so much that they're observing him, they always have been. They knew about the menos he wounded when he was still using Rukia's powers.

He has to follow their dictates or DIE. He has no choice and that's how Isshin and Urahara "took his future away". No one ever told him that and that's why Ginjou is pissed because he's the same.

Ichigo BELONGS to SS and he doesn't have a say in it
Why do you have to swear so bluntly and say die 20 times? Also where did it say that he had to die? This was an obvious ass pull from kubo. I'm sorry but kubo is known for this are you like a huge fanboy/girl? I am going to go ahead and say you are a complete fanboy who is blinded by the facts I base this off you defending kubo and your avatar/location. Lastly why does it matter if ichigo is soul societys lackey from what I can see this doesn't change a thing he has way more freedom than lets say a captain.
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Old 2011-11-28, 20:37   Link #138
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Aizen was a sick person...I doubt Ukitake is sick in that kind of way Also highly doubt they'd let dangerous elements roam around, when there's a certain underground facility for criminals, as shown in the pendulum arc.
Most people seem to agree that what Ukitake did wasn't too bad all things considered and probably even worked out to Ichigo's benefit, but let's be honest here... it was still a rotten move on Ukitake part and Soul Society's.

No matter how sensible the logic, what Ukitake did was basically fit Ichigo with a leash and collar. It doesn't matter if you let your dog wander and piddle where he wants, it doesn't change the fact that you hold a leash that can be used to choke him anytime.

The big thing here is that they lied about it. Good intentions or not, the fact that Ukitake had to concoct some story about the badge just proves that he felt Ichigo wouldn't willingly take it if he knew the truth. I wouldn't expect something like that to cause Ichigo to turn against SS, but I'd be surprised if someone as honest and independent as him didn't take this as a huge slap in the face. Ichigo's already grown mistrustful of Urahara this arc, but even as secretive as Urahara has been, he's never actually lied to his face. If Ginjou's words are true (and they probably are in this case, given Ishida already pretty much reached the same conclusion on his own) Ichigo can't take Soul Society's word for granted anymore. He knows they're willing to lie to get what they want from him. But overall, Ichigo's seen worse from Soul Society. Eventually he'd let bygones be bygones, but Ginjou can still take advantage of the mistrust he's planted.
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Old 2011-11-29, 08:42   Link #139
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Meh. I don't see a big deal with the whole restricting Ichigo's power thing. When they first gave him that badge post-SS arc he had far less control over his power than he does now.

SS knew very little about Ichigo immediately following the Rukia rescue, so I can completely understand their desire to be cautious of him until they were certain he was on their side. Think about it - they'd just had a major shake down, losing three long-time captains through a mutiny instigated by Aizen.

Until a couple of days earlier, Ichigo had been the invader, the enemy. They had no idea what to expect of him once he returned to the real world. All they knew was that he had power, a lot of it, and very little knowledge of how to control it.

In addition, it has previously been explained that all captain class shinigami must wear limiters when they are in the real world to prevent them from harming civilians/humans with their spiritual pressure. We saw what happened when Aizen walked around K-town with nothing limiting his power - people up and disappeared.

Soul Society's ultimate purpose is not only to assist souls in crossing over, but to protect human life. By limiting Ichigo's power, just as they would any captain-class shinigami entering the real world, they were fulfilling their duty.

Not telling Ichigo was kind of a dick move, but considering he's a hot headed teenager with very little capacity for rational thought I can understand why they didn't.
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Old 2011-11-29, 08:53   Link #140
Marcus H.
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You know what's a probable twist here?

Ichigo has been a product of Mayuri's experimentation on human-Shinigami hybrids, and after the success of the experiment, they decide to expand on it further with the human-Hollow hybrid, then the Hollow-Shinigami (Visored) hybrid, then the Fullbring development.

Everything has been a huge experiment, and this twist is worthy of M. Night Shyamalamaladingdong.
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