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Old 2012-01-05, 12:35   Link #281
novalysis
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Dimensional Transfer does have one known limitation, but distance is not it. Dimensional Transfer's only known limitation is the time it takes to transport the spellcaster to his or her desired location.
Hmm , is it possible then to say , travel from Mid-Childa to Carnagi via Dimensional Transfer , without a Dimensional shuttle?

Still , a No Limits! Dimensional Transfer sounds very unconvincing to me.

Furthermore , you have to consider power issues. So no , while I think that if ZnT lies in the Nanoha-verse , any familiar from the Nanoha-verse that Louise summons has the right and means to walk-away , when a True Familiar like Arf , who taps on her mistress mana to maintain her existence draws from an unfamiliar power-source , She wouldn't be able to pack up and leave right-away. Though theoretically , she could likely find her way back to TSAB Dimensional space given enough time.

There's actually another potentially interesting summoning: Louise summons the Book of Darkness , Pre-Hayate. It wouldn't end well for Louise , nor for Halkagenia....
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Old 2012-01-05, 12:38   Link #282
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure they could've gotten there via spell. But given the amount of people traveling there, plus all their luggage, it's just far more feasible to travel via shuttle.
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Old 2012-01-05, 12:56   Link #283
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure they could've gotten there via spell. But given the amount of people traveling there, plus all their luggage, it's just far more feasible to travel via shuttle.
That still implies mass limitations , and several other limitations too. Dimensional Transfer ain't mana free after all. And we've only seen it , IIRC , for one Dimension jumps on the part of the Wolkenrittens.
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Old 2012-01-05, 12:57   Link #284
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Moot point when it's only one person having to worry about a single jump.
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Old 2012-01-05, 12:57   Link #285
Keroko
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And we've only seen it , IIRC , for one Dimension jumps on the part of the Wolkenrittens.
And Fate. And Arf. And the entire Wolkenritter group when they made their escape.
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Old 2012-01-05, 13:29   Link #286
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And Fate. And Arf. And the entire Wolkenritter group when they made their escape.
Altough those were speciall ovassions, it's implied that Arf and Fate were assited during their dimensional travel spells, and the Wolkenritter seems to have lost that ability after disconecting from the Book. Considering The Garden of Time possesed powerfull dimensional control funcitons and The Book of Darkness had the specific power to travel across dimensions, that logic make good sense.

Alss, while it's true that a full on crossover between two universes have potential. I also find intersting the idea of Arf stuck in the ZnT-verse because without all the other Nanohaverse powerhouses around she will have time to shine and undergo character develpoement alongside Louise and her gang(five bucks that Guiche will start fawning over Arf's human form xD).

I like novalysis's idea of delaying th full encounter with the TSAB to allow Arf and Luise to grow, have adventures, forming bonds and then when that happens both will be stronger and also the clash conflict betwee Arf's two worlds will now have a much more effective impact because by that point she will have her own roots and friends on the ZnT-verse.

On the subject of the memory-erase spell. It seems to be a very specialized spell that only affects part of the memory of the summoned familiar to allow him/her to serve their new master without missing it's old home and close ones. It doesen't affect their abilities(Saito still knows about World War II, public baths, school uniforms and all sorts of Earth-related stuff, he only forget the details of his personal life), after all, it will defeat the purouse of summoning a familiar on first place don't you think? Arf will remember her spells and combat abilites but probably will forget exactly where she obtained those, forgeting about Rynith and Fate.
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Old 2012-01-05, 14:20   Link #287
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Altough those were speciall ovassions, it's implied that Arf and Fate were assited during their dimensional travel spells, and the Wolkenritter seems to have lost that ability after disconecting from the Book. Considering The Garden of Time possesed powerfull dimensional control funcitons and The Book of Darkness had the specific power to travel across dimensions, that logic make good sense.
I don't see how they were assisted or special occasions. Only if you pile theory on theory, maybe. But there is zero evidence that Fate and Arf were assisted in their jumps, only assumption. Just as there is zero evidence that the Wolkenritter have lost their Dimensional Transfer spell, only assumption.

Again, there is no need to pull the "it's impossible to get back" card. You can just as easily delay the full-scale encounter with the TSAB by having Arf do some preliminary scouting first to see if the world is even ready for first contact.

I imagine that the first encounter between Arf and the princess would be very different if Arf is acting as an ambassador, for example.
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Old 2012-01-05, 14:45   Link #288
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The only assistance I can see Fate having with Dimensional Transfer is Bardiche...
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Old 2012-01-05, 14:51   Link #289
Akiyoshi
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I imagine that the first encounter between Arf and the princess would be very different if Arf is acting as an ambassador, for example.
then that will be adifferent sotry altogheter because it render pointless the familiar summoning spell as also the role of Arf in the story. Anyonce can be the ambassador without much difference.

It's a good plot, i admit it but it completely defeat the purpouse of having Arf as a main character so it work better as an alternate crossover. For the idea of "Louise with Arf as a familiar" i think the idea of Arf stuck in ZnT-verse for a while works better. That way arf have the pressure to solve things by herself instead of relying on the powerhouses of Section Six.
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Old 2012-01-05, 15:24   Link #290
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then that will be adifferent sotry altogheter because it render pointless the familiar summoning spell as also the role of Arf in the story. Anyonce can be the ambassador without much difference.
... Why? Why does it render Arf's role in the story pointless if she's an ambassador?

Seriously, all the usual antics can still work since she has a legal excuse to be there, while the TSAB won't interfere since the ZnT world is not under their administration and they don't have a "must act nao or lost logia will blow up world" excuse.

Now, Arf has an actual reason to stay. Not the usual "can't leave" cliche every other crossover uses.
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Old 2012-01-05, 15:55   Link #291
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The "stuck forever" thing with Saito is necessary for him because he has a romance plot with Louise; it's supposed to go from "stuck forever" to "want to stay here". I really, really don't see Arf and Louise having the same kind of subplot, so the "stuck forever" idea is entirely unnecessary, not to mention overdone.
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Old 2012-01-05, 18:21   Link #292
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The "stuck forever" thing with Saito is necessary for him because he has a romance plot with Louise; it's supposed to go from "stuck forever" to "want to stay here". I really, really don't see Arf and Louise having the same kind of subplot, so the "stuck forever" idea is entirely unnecessary, not to mention overdone.
Noone's advocating stuck forever. I think we all know that's quite silly and defeat ths purpose of an Xover with Nanoha...

The main issue is how soon Arf can get back into contact with the TSAB , and it could take quite some-time.

But one of the main potentials of the Crossover is that the consequences of the disappearance of a Familiar from her own native world could easily be linked to the story eventually . And that's something rarely explored in this type of Crossovers - what happens back on the other side.

Again , I think the TSAB will at least spare quite a reasonable amount of effort tracking down Arf.
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Old 2012-01-05, 19:27   Link #293
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Dunno, she's an assistant. And a familiar at that. While I don't believe the TSAB treats familiars as slaves, I do think they're somewhat lower on the scales compared to humans.

Would a search start? Sure, but more because of Arf's family and the high places they have than Arf herself. It'd be a different case if it was Yuuno who went poof, since he basically runs the library now and has made valuable contributions outside of that as well.

I am still of the opinion that Arf not being able to leave or contact the TSAB is unnecessary for this crossover idea though. Indeed, making sure everyone is aware of where Arf is is another way of starting the 'what happens on the other side' plot.
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Old 2012-01-05, 19:30   Link #294
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Makes me wonder if Arf could figure out where she was by looking at the stars long enough...

If so, she could do a dimension transport to a planet that's close to Bureau space and leave a message to Fate to let her know what's going on, before going back to Louise.
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Old 2012-01-05, 21:04   Link #295
novalysis
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Dunno, she's an assistant. And a familiar at that. While I don't believe the TSAB treats familiars as slaves, I do think they're somewhat lower on the scales compared to humans.

Would a search start? Sure, but more because of Arf's family and the high places they have than Arf herself. It'd be a different case if it was Yuuno who went poof, since he basically runs the library now and has made valuable contributions outside of that as well.

I am still of the opinion that Arf not being able to leave or contact the TSAB is unnecessary for this crossover idea though. Indeed, making sure everyone is aware of where Arf is is another way of starting the 'what happens on the other side' plot.
Well , she's an assistant in a very , very sensitive place , and the Familiar of a Very well connected , decorated hero , for one. So , even as a Familiar , she's probably going to be treated quite differently - her abduction might not cause a stir on the same level as Yuuno Scrya , but even the Council might regard this as a potential security risk.

But still , Arf is doubtlessly , or has been previous involved in many sensitive matters before. Being kidnapped to a distant Dimension is bound to raise some red flags at least , because of who she is and what she does , and who she is connected too. I'd say some effort will be put in to establishing her whereabouts , at minimum.

Ironically , she can say that she has many friends in High Places...

And yes , the What Happens on The Other Side plot would probably have to start with an attempt to trace Arf's location. If the portal trajectory could be tracked by the TSAB , and she somehow had the means to transmit data on the portal before getting sucked inside , that would give something for the TSAB to work with.

Naturally, the next stage explores what happens once Everyone knows where Arf is. And the impeding Windstone Catastrophe might well see the TSAB launching a small Scientific expedition to evaluate and access the situation , since there's a Dimensional Scale disaster anticipated within a decade. And that , is a gold-mine of plot potential.

Bonus if the Saint Church already has a small , secretive presence on Halkagenia , and classified small scale contacts with high ranking members within the Church of Brimir.

Indeed , Halkagenia might well be regarded as a very Ancient-Belka like Society in many ways , with it's magocratic aristocracies and royal lines engaged in accidental eugenics.... those parallels are another interesting topic for exploration here.
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Old 2012-01-05, 22:09   Link #296
Akiyoshi
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^ Yup, i'm not saying the TSAB must be banned but the delay is necessary to build up the story as also the realtionship of Arf with the other ZnT characters.

If Arf have the chance of leaving from the very beginning then the most logicall action for her is precisely do that because by that point she have almost zero developement with Louise who, also bvy that point, will be barely more than a spoiled bratt with bad luck add more reasons for Arf to simply don't care about her and leaving.

Being unable to return for a while will allow both the chance for good developement, cliches are not bad if they follow a purpouse. Arf having some adventures of her own with the ZnT crew will be less meaningfull to her if there's nothing at stake. If the TSAB have contact from the very beginning what will stop Arf from calling the Aces/Wolkenritter to curbstomp the bads guys?(even the StrikerS-era forwards are pretty overpowered by ZnT standards xDU). That way the moment TSAB finally makes contact Arf and Louise will be more mature as also raised a few levels with their magic and the stronger opponents from latter novels will be more suitable candidates to face TSAB's chivarly.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:03   Link #297
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I wonder how a Void Familiar would react to meeting the friends and family they were taken from, and especially to those same people insisting that the Familiar come home.

Would the Void Familiar suddenly realize that they miss their family and want to go home? Would they instead get a headache as their repressed thoughts struggle against the Runes? Would the Runes repress such thoughts utterly so that the Familiar is confused about why he should WANT to go home, even if he can't explain why he'd rather stay with his Master?

We can't answer that question through Saito, because his Runes were subverted and/or broken as part of the reveal, and I don't think he has canonically (ie: the novels) reunited with anyone from Earth.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:10   Link #298
Akiyoshi
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We can't answer that question through Saito, because his Runes were subverted and/or broken as part of the reveal, and I don't think he has canonically (ie: the novels) reunited with anyone from Earth.
As far as i know Saito indeed struggled with the toughts about the life he left on earth after recovering some of his memories adn the true nature of the familiar contract was revealed. Louise also felt conflicted because she now feels responsible for taking Saito away from his world and loved ones.

So yeah it can be a goof plot element, specially because we know how big Arf's devotion for Fate is.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:13   Link #299
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And if the Midchildans find the Void Familiar, rather than the other way around...

Just imagine how pissed off they would be when they figure out that their friend is being mind-controlled.

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2012-01-05 at 23:23.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:27   Link #300
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A void familiar isn't mind controlled, they have free will but their memories are manipulated to adapt them to be more loyal and dependant of the void master.
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