AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-01-06, 12:45   Link #361
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
We already have Colbert who knows this stuff to make their existence clear without forcing Arf out of character. And even if they conveniently appear at crucial moments... wait, isn't that how the original did it too? Duel with Guiche, staff of destruction, airplane, the runes always have appeared at asspull moments. Now they're just going to come a bit later.

Besides, everybody who reads this story will already know of the runes' existence and purpose. Can't asspull what people are already expecting.
Using the runes only at the important parts is what will feel forced. Besides, how is Arf using cleverly whatever weapon is near of her out of character? If anything it will add to Arf's nature as a versatile warrior, also will be a pretty valuable pwoer on the early stages of her live on ZnT-verse because she can't use her other spells easily. Her fists are strong but there will be enemies imprevious to simple punches and kicks and Arf's role now is the one of a defender.

Oh yeah, about Saito, his battle with Guiche precisely served the purpouse of state the existence of the Gandalfr powers who aren't fully explained until he holds "The Staff of Destruction". We got lampshading who served it's purpouse well so we don't started to nitpiccking the moment Saito revealed to be a normal highschooler able to use a freaking rocket launcher flawlessly xDU.

EDIT: Page cliamed for Arf making up for an awesome multi-weapons user.
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 12:54   Link #362
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Arf is a temperamental hand-to-hand combatant, not a clever analythical fighter who uses every card up her sleeve. It's like giving Saber a gun. Yeah, sure, it's clever, but it's also out of character. And lazy. If using the runes only at the times the plot demands it feels forced... find other ways around it. Arf doesn't need the airplane, for example, so just drop it. Have her fly on her own and do the damage.

Why attempt to force the status quo when an opportunity for change is presented? Isn't that the entire idea of writing crossovers? To change said status quo?
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 13:07   Link #363
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Arf is a temperamental hand-to-hand combatant, not a clever analythical fighter who uses every card up her sleeve. It's like giving Saber a gun. Yeah, sure, it's clever, but it's also out of character. And lazy. If using the runes only at the times the plot demands it feels forced... find other ways around it. Arf doesn't need the airplane, for example, so just drop it. Have her fly on her own and do the damage.
I don't think is lazy, if you can't use your normal powers normally and are in a life or death situation that requires you to use a weapon you normally won't use, may as well take the chance. Gosh, i still remember how you guys slapped me in the face silly for saying an AEC-weapon will look inappropiate on Signum while argumenting to me that it's the most pragmatical solution due to circunstances against Laevatein. The same situation could apply here, Arf can fight all the way with her own style but when the need arises she will now have the chance to take advantage of a plethora of tools to aid herself in battle depending on the circunstances. Like you, i'm against sticking Arf with a single weapon all the time but i'm not against the idea of her to cash on the possibilities the Gandalfr runes open for her.

Remeber guys, even Obi-Wan was in the need of using a gun sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Why attempt to force the status quo when an opportunity for change is presented? Isn't that the entire idea of writing crossovers? To change said status quo?
It's not about the status quo, if anything, denying Arf the chance to expand on this new possibilities is what i can call "forcing" the status quo on her. she's a bonafide fist fighter, everyone knows that, but we also know that the Gandalfr powers can make ANYONE an expert weapons user, when we talked about Yuuno there wasn't any problems in regards to this, why is the issue with Arf so big?

I'm not saying she'll stick forever using weapons, what i'm saying is that the new possibilities that ability grant to her musn't be overlooked. Ignoring that will be just forcing the status quo from the Nanohaverse side.
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 15:01   Link #364
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I see this more as a detriment rather than a merit as the original source was too saturated of this, but that's only my personal preferences.(i'm the only one tired of reading about Yuuno involved in harem hijinks? C'mon his character is much more interesting than that).
True.

In fact, I was really mostly thinking of how Kirche would, inevitably, hound him, and how funny that would be. A male doing the same with Arf wouldn't be funny, even if Guiche was stupid enough to try.

I'm not particularly expecting or hoping for Louise, Siesta, Tabitha, or Henrietta to try getting Yuuno's attention (especially not the last case, if he manges to save Prince Wales).

That's another thing. Yuuno really has more potential to turn the ZnT story on its head from the earlier days than Arf does.

Arf can maybe cast a Thunder Fall or two. Impressive, but nothing the mages haven't seen before.

Yuuno can erect castle-encompassing fields with barrier-properties (force fields). He can sneak into enemy camps or formations and execute forced teleports, removing the enemy leadership from a battle entirely and leaving their forces confused and directionless.

And the teleportation thing WOULD be something no one has ever seen before, and have people screaming about "elf magic".


Quote:
You other points are mooth, tough.
Huh?

"My other points are smooth and tough?"

"My other points are moot, though?"
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 15:12   Link #365
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
True.

In fact, I was really mostly thinking of how Kirche would, inevitably, hound him, and how funny that would be. A male doing the same with Arf wouldn't be funny, even if Guiche was stupid enough to try.

I'm not particularly expecting or hoping for Louise, Siesta, Tabitha, or Henrietta to try getting Yuuno's attention (especially not the last case, if he manges to save Prince Wales).
I'll found Guiche trying to hit on Arf incredibly funny based on what we know about her. Plus, if there's something i've learned from Azumanga is that we can have a very entertaining show without the need of that "boy/girl romantic hijinks" stuff.

Kirche probably will be annoyed by the fact that the "Zero" managed to aqcuire a really cool familiar and thus i can foresee attempts to discredit Arf xD. tabithe probably will be nonchantaly amused, giving weird looks at her, making the Wolf-Girl nervous xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That's another thing. Yuuno really has more potential to turn the ZnT story on its head from the earlier days than Arf does.

Arf can maybe cast a Thunder Fall or two. Impressive, but nothing the mages haven't seen before.

Yuuno can erect castle-encompassing fields with barrier-properties (force fields). He can sneak into enemy camps or formations and execute forced teleports, removing the enemy leadership from a battle entirely and leaving their forces confused and directionless.

And the teleportation thing WOULD be something no one has ever seen before, and have people screaming about "elf magic".
In resume, Yuuno is too broken for the ZnT-verse which is also detrimental to the plot. Another point to Arf xD.

...and by the way, Arf is no slouch either when it comes to barries, fields and shields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Huh?

"My other points are smooth and tough?"

"My other points are moot, though?"
I was trying to say that your other points are valid to me, my english betrayed me once more xDU.
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 16:38   Link #366
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Arf has not demonstrated a single field type spell.
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 16:40   Link #367
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Arf has not demonstrated a single field type spell.
Nanoha A's, She alongside Yuuno developed the field spell that helped everyone to survive Shamal's Anhilating Thunder unscatched.
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 16:53   Link #368
novalysis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Actually , Arf is not as weak as some people seem to think.

Keep in mind several things:

Arf's power is a reflection of her mistress power. If Louise has a higher mana pool and magical potential than Fate , Arf's power will be correspondingly higher. Actually , mind you , that fact could well be the first step in convincing Louise she's not a zero.

Secondly , Arf can cast not just thunder fall , but all of Fate's Testarossa's Spell Arsenal in theory. And mind you , Thunder Fall is at least on par with Colbert's Firestorm or Karin's Whirlwind. You don't see Wardes doing something like that , do you?

And Photon Lancer Multishot (something Arf Can cast (which she did in Episode 8 of the first Nanoha anime) ) is a very impressive attack by ZnT standards . Beamspam is something that does not happen in ZnT due to the limitations of their magical system. Arf , at full power can beamspam ,along with Fate.

And yes , Arf's excellent defensive skills are well noted. Which is why she makes an excellent Familiar for Louise in a long run , not just in terms of interacting with her (and the benefit of being a True Familiar) , but also in combat. Consider this. Louise is very much a Hayate like mage , but with greater accuracy and selectivity over her target , later on. Arf's beamspam Point Defenses and ability to cast very impressive shields and fields and binds will make her the perfect Familiar to Cover her mistress.

What if Arf came over with a Support type device? Actually , my initial thought was for Arf to be dragged in with a Proto-type Intelligence Device modeled after Baradiche. But that sounds very broken.

Furthermore , how liberal are the Gandalfar runes ? If Arf was meant , in the eyes of Precia Testarossa to be a weapon , (or if Familiars were meant to be a weapon) , I'd imagine even her bare fist and use of Strike-Arts will be boosted by the Gandalfar runes. Even if it wasn't so , Arf is fast enough to demolish Guiche and all his golems with just her first , I'd reckon. It's Mathilda that would first give her significant problems.

Hmm , here'a another thought. We know that weapons can be conjured in Nanoha. Look at Bloody Dagger for example. I wonder whehter Arf could theoretically conjure , or at least summon stored weapons on the fly.

Kind of like a 17th Century version of Homura Akemi...

Mind you , even Arf is too broken , IMO . She's at least on Karin's scale in terms of combat potential. Let's not talk about the true Monsters of the Nanoha-verse. The best way to prevent her from ROFL-Stomp everything is to allow her access to her full powers and spell arsenal slowly. Still , I have an amusing picture of Arf casting Bloody Daggers and using the Gandalfar Runes for extremely accurate delivery....

Not going to happen . I doubt that Fate mastered that spell .
novalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 16:56   Link #369
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Hmm , here'a another thought. We know that weapons can be conjured in Nanoha. Look at Bloody Dagger for example. I wonder whehter Arf could theoretically conjure , or at least summon stored weapons on the fly.

Kind of like a 17th Century version of Homura Akemi...
That ...sounds ...AWESOME!

Arf with acces to a multi-purpuse arsenal at will with the Gandalfr powers will skyrocket her to broken status. Of course, that should be reserved for advanced stages of the story. Or starting with few, less powerfull weapons.
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 17:04   Link #370
novalysis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
That ...sounds ...AWESOME!

Arf with acces to a multi-purpuse arsenal at will with the Gandalfr powers will skyrocket her to broken status. Of course, that should be reserved for advanced stages of the story. Or starting with few, less powerfull weapons.
Definitely Late Stage. The really broken aspects of Arf probably only comes into play starting from around Saxe Coburg Gotha. How will Arf fare against an army of 80 000?

(Pictures Photon Lancer Multi-shots sniping the command chain to bits , while Arf keeps running in her wolf form. And every spell bouncing off Arf's barrier)

And I dread to think what happens if Tiffa also got her bonded. Nope , I don't think it's a good idea , since drawing Mana from two masters make Arf even more broken.

And anyway , I think canon will be flayed alive by the time we get to this point. No , canon should be arc-in-cieled ASAP.
novalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 17:19   Link #371
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
I guess things will go smoothly just after the battle with Mathilda and her Golem as nerfed Arf(that is, no shooting spells) will have a hard time against that thing until she uses "The Staff of Destruction" xD!
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 17:25   Link #372
novalysis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I guess things will go smoothly just after the battle with Mathilda and her Golem as nerfed Arf(that is, no shooting spells) will have a hard time against that thing until she uses "The Staff of Destruction" xD!
Which probably ironically be one of the most difficult battles Arf would have to go through during her time in Halkagenia , besides Joseph .

Though if she get's some of her shooting spells back once she faces Wardes , I think Wardes might be in a world of trouble...

Plus , she's not an inexperienced Swordsman. And since her mistress is an exceptionally fast Mage , I think that keeping up with Wardes would just be another sparring session for her. Especially with the Gandalfar Rune boost.

Hmm , the Staff of Destruction being a crude century old Storage Device shaped like a barrier?
novalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 17:28   Link #373
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Hmm , the Staff of Destruction being a crude century old Storage Device shaped like a barrier?
Interesting, in fact you can replace the Staff of Destruction with virtually anything that can give Arf and edge against a Rock giant xD
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 18:41   Link #374
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Nanoha A's, She alongside Yuuno developed the field spell that helped everyone to survive Shamal's Anhilating Thunder unscatched.
Deployed, not developed.

And that was a barrier spell, Circle Protection, learned from Yuuno. Yuuno used the more advanced Sphere Protection.

(On four different targets. At a distance. Unaided.)
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 18:54   Link #375
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
:Arf's power is a reflection of her mistress power. If Louise has a higher mana pool and magical potential than Fate , Arf's power will be correspondingly higher. Actually , mind you , that fact could well be the first step in convincing Louise she's not a zero.

Secondly , Arf can cast not just thunder fall , but all of Fate's Testarossa's Spell Arsenal in theory. And mind you , Thunder Fall is at least on par with Colbert's Firestorm or Karin's Whirlwind. You don't see Wardes doing something like that , do you?
I dismissed Thunder Fall as a paradigm-changing power. I still do, since spells like it are not unknown to the ZnT world.

But I will admit I was mistaken in thinking that Arf could only cast it a couple of times, given that Louise might be able to give her enough energy to keep on casting it.

However, any force big enough to merit multiple Thunder Falls is going to have an air force, so Arf won't have the peace to cast that spell more than once, even high up in the air.

Like I said -- Thunder Fall is not a paradigm-changing power in ZnT. They've seen stuff like it before, and they know how to counter stuff like it.

Yuuno's non-elemental scrying magic and mass/forced teleportation, on the other hand, is something they're not prepared for. Nor are they going to be on the look-out for an "elf mage" disguised as a ferret.

Thunder Fall is also not going to matter in most personal battles either, since it's a Ritual Spell that would take far too long to cast. Trying that in a duel would only get Arf killed.


Quote:
Furthermore , how liberal are the Gandalfar runes ? If Arf was meant , in the eyes of Precia Testarossa to be a weapon
Precia had nothing to do with Arf. Fate created her, and with absolutely no intention of making her a weapon.

You're better off remembering that during A's, Arf took to wearing armored gauntlets and boots, just like Zafira's, to increase her striking damage and defense.

They're part of her barrier jacket, but they ARE intended for combat, and therefore the Runes should apply to them.
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 18:56   Link #376
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Hmm , the Staff of Destruction being a crude century old Storage Device shaped like a barrier?
I already mentioned this earlier.

But, a barrier? What do you mean?
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 19:03   Link #377
novalysis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I dismissed Thunder Fall as a paradigm-changing power. I still do, since spells like it are not unknown to the ZnT world.

But I will admit I was mistaken in thinking that Arf could only cast it a couple of times, given that Louise might be able to give her enough energy to keep on casting it.

However, any force big enough to merit multiple Thunder Falls is going to have an air force, so Arf won't have the peace to cast that spell more than once, even high up in the air.

Like I said -- Thunder Fall is not a paradigm-changing power in ZnT. They've seen stuff like it before, and they know how to counter stuff like it.

Yuuno's non-elemental scrying magic and mass/forced teleportation, on the other hand, is something they're not prepared for. Nor are they going to be on the look-out for an "elf mage" disguised as a ferret.

Thunder Fall is also not going to matter in most personal battles either, since it's a Ritual Spell that would take far too long to cast. Trying that in a duel would only get Arf killed.
Arf has access to similar , equally dangerous spells. In any case , Thunderfall is an anti-army spell , so that wasn't necessarily the best example to bring out here. Photon Lancer is a more viable regular spell. Not game changer , I grant you that , but still , such magics place Arf right at the very top of the ZnT foodchain in terms of power.

Thunder Fall would not matter unless Arf is surrounded in an army , but Photon Lancer will matter. And that barrier jacket likely exceeds anything armor Halkagenian tech can come up with.

Mind you , A's showed that Arf can also perform forced Teleportation.

Quote:
Precia had nothing to do with Arf. Fate created her, and with absolutely no intention of making her a weapon.

You're better off remembering that during A's, Arf took to wearing armored gauntlets and boots, just like Zafira's, to increase her striking damage and defense.

They're part of her barrier jacket, but they ARE intended for combat, and therefore the Runes should apply to them.

I forgot about those gauntlets. Point conceeded. Indeed , even the Barrier Jacket might be enough to activate the Gandalfar Runes.

Which means Arf is going to be far more deadly than Saito ever can be. And indeed , probably even more dangerous than the tactically inflexible (disputable , I acknowledge), offensively limited and pacifistic Yuuno.

Let's put it this Way. I think there's a strong justification for claiming that after Striker S , what Yuuno can do , Arf can also do. Not as well , or as efficiently , I grant that. (Though with Louise walking around with Hayate's mana pool , does that really matter?) But given that she is Yuuno de-facto assistant , and given the fact that I don't think she will complacently let up on her studies of magic , she might well have learned most of Yuuno's arsenal too , if only to pass it on to Fate.
novalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 19:04   Link #378
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
(On four different targets. At a distance. Unaided.)
Yeah but the point remans in that Arf is capable of doing that, regardless of how well she can do it in comparission to Yuuno or other mages.
__________________
May 29 2010-2015

...5 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 19:04   Link #379
novalysis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I already mentioned this earlier.

But, a barrier? What do you mean?
Barrel. A typo.
novalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-06, 19:07   Link #380
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Yeah but the point remans in that Arf is capable of doing that, regardless of how well she can do it in comparission to Yuuno or other mages.
Oh, I was just tooting the Ferret Horn again, not trying to diminsh Arf's accomplishments.

Just like I wasn't saying that she can't cast barriers. But Barrier magic and Field magic are two different things (though they can be combined to create a Barrier/Force Field), and Arf doesn't have any Field type spells.
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.