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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 34 28.57%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 29.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 31.09%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 10.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-28, 03:35   Link #141
blue_sora
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post

I don't feel sorry for him or her, by the way, I just find really borderline misogynistic the hatred she's tossed. Their actions are understandable and unlikeable, but she's not being a bitch for the sake of being a bitch.
Misogynistic? If it was Kayneth that breaking off Sola-Ui's fingers when she was lying paralyzed chained by the bed I'm very certain that we will all call him a douchebag or an a**hole. So no, she is acting a bitch for the sake of being a bitch, because what happens to asking politely with the magic word 'please'?
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Old 2011-11-28, 03:38   Link #142
Haak
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Remember that even Saber can't resist his gentlemanly charms and betrayed Kiritsugu by letting Lancer go aid his master

If a heroic spirit can't resist his swag, what chances does a human woman does?
Saber can resist it's charm as stated because of her Grade A Magical Resistance. She let him go because she wanted a fair fight with honor.
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Old 2011-11-28, 03:40   Link #143
TheForsaken
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...She could have killed him after, but didn't, did she? Or made him comatose with her abilities. She could have told Lancer that the healing went wrong. He doesn't know how skilled or not she is to transfer the command seals. But she spared him.
If Kayneth died or turned comatose, there's no way Sola could have his Command Seals.
Sola said herself that she was unable to take the Command Seals without Kayneth's consent, that's why she tortured him to force him consent.
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Old 2011-11-28, 04:13   Link #144
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Sola was really hot there being all smiley evil
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Old 2011-11-28, 04:27   Link #145
Thess
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Originally Posted by blue_sora View Post
Misogynistic? If it was Kayneth that breaking off Sola-Ui's fingers when she was lying paralyzed chained by the bed I'm very certain that we will all call him a douchebag or an a**hole. So no, she is acting a bitch for the sake of being a bitch, because what happens to asking politely with the magic word 'please'?
She did ask him before she broke his finger. Edit: for the scene of the novels before his deep jealousy and her yandere craziness:

Spoiler for I hope this is allowed since it's not spoilery?:


He's very aware they are staking their lives in this and that is logical to give her the command seals, just like her he's not thinking clearly by being dragged into the Lancer drama triangle. Because being Lancer is suffering.

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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
If Kayneth died or turned comatose, there's no way Sola could have his Command Seals.
Sola said herself that she was unable to take the Command Seals without Kayneth's consent, that's why she tortured him to force him consent.
You completely missed my point. He's still alive, after she got what she wanted. She could have claimed to Lancer that he couldn't make it and she had to transfer the seals (Lancer didn't know she was unskilled in that) and it was a miracle that he survived.
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-28 at 04:53.
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Old 2011-11-28, 04:41   Link #146
Key Board
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Saber can resist it's charm as stated because of her Grade A Magical Resistance. She let him go because she wanted a fair fight with honor.
You shouldn't take her words at face value. It was never about honor with her. Or else she wouldn't fight using an invisible sword. It's all about wanting to be acknowledged by Kiritsugu. Remember that her main complaint was that Kiritsugu had so little faith in her.

In contrast to this, Lancer respects and acknowledges her a warrior she wished to be. I'm not saying she wants to ride Lancer's spear, but it's clear she let herself be swayed by his charms because it made her feel appreciated dare I say, needed deep inside.

Magic resistance has nothing to do with this. It's about mental fortitude. As a heroic spirit she should have above average, but Lancer still managed to take advantage of that weakness suavely.
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Old 2011-11-28, 05:00   Link #147
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In my view, Kiritsugu is actually trying to do saber a favor by going for Lancer's team, as Saber's hand is still injured.
Saber must be really affected by the mole or Lancer's charms to not notice her bleeding hand, and she still wants to go after Caster...
After having to be saved by Lancer while fighting Caster.
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Old 2011-11-28, 05:10   Link #148
Thess
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You shouldn't take her words at face value. It was never about honor with her. Or else she wouldn't fight using an invisible sword. It's all about wanting to be acknowledged by Kiritsugu. Remember that her main complaint was that Kiritsugu had so little faith in her.

In contrast to this, Lancer respects and acknowledges her a warrior she wished to be. I'm not saying she wants to ride Lancer's spear, but it's clear she let herself be swayed by his charms because it made her feel appreciated dare I say, needed deep inside.

Magic resistance has nothing to do with this. It's about mental fortitude. As a heroic spirit she should have above average, but Lancer still managed to take advantage of that weakness suavely.
It's about honor for both of them. Lancer stopped Berserker from attacking her because he wanted to fight her fairly. Saber would have done the same.

Spoiler for novel scene, to show what they are thinking...:


In other words: Yay Chivalry!

Edit: Also she's fighting with Invisible Air because that's her non-trump card Noble Phantasm.
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Old 2011-11-28, 05:40   Link #149
blue_sora
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She did ask him before she broke his finger. Edit: for the scene of the novels before his deep jealousy and her yandere craziness:

Spoiler for I hope this is allowed since it's not spoilery?:


He's very aware they are staking their lives in this and that is logical to give her the command seals, just like her he's not thinking clearly by being dragged into the Lancer drama triangle. Because being Lancer is suffering.
Eh, then we have to agree to disagree because I think she is still a bitch because torture is not the way to convince someone to give up his command seals.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
You completely missed my point. He's still alive, after she got what she wanted. She could have claimed to Lancer that he couldn't make it and she had to transfer the seals (Lancer didn't know she was unskilled in that) and it was a miracle that he survived.
You know this makes me wonder a little, is there still a connection between Kayneth and Lancer now that the command seals changed hands? As shown in the previous episode Lancer can sensed Kayneth when he is in mortal peril, but now that Sola-Ui has the command seals then he could sense Sola-Ui in danger but not Kayneth anymore? And anyway if Sola-Ui kills Kayneth after the transfer I doubt Lancer will be fooled by her. After all they were only the ones in the building and he can still sensed Kayneth when he's unconscious so if he suddenly died after that is very suspicious of Sola-Ui.
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Old 2011-11-28, 06:21   Link #150
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
In my view, Kiritsugu is actually trying to do saber a favor by going for Lancer's team, as Saber's hand is still injured.
Saber must be really affected by the mole or Lancer's charms to not notice her bleeding hand, and she still wants to go after Caster...
After having to be saved by Lancer while fighting Caster.
It couldn't possibly be the fact that Caster is running around slaughtering little kids that's the reason she wants to go target Caster. Yeah, she's not thinking straight. Honor before reason and all that.
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Old 2011-11-28, 08:16   Link #151
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Yes, that's likely part of the reason why he was so pissed at Saber. Not only did she ruin his very effective strategy, she did it when the entire reason Kiritsugu used said strategy was to free her curse, which she got on her own through her own incompetence. He sacrificed a portion of his freaking ribs to get her arm back to normal, and she repays him by betraying his trust and trusting an enemy Servant with his life instead? Kiritsugu really must be cursing himself for not having gotten a Servant like Assassin instead.
Wow you actually make a very interesting point here. It seems like in Fate Zero Saber is the more naive one out of the two and bringing the team down while in FSN the roles are reversed with Shirou.

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Eh, Kayneth didn't feel any pain (if it wasn't obvious, his nervous system was numbed). Secondly, yes what Sola did was awful, but she doesn't love him. Period. She's bargained as a tool to marry him like Sakura was fed to the Matous. She doesn't really have a choice about it and they are in the middle of a bloody war. They aren't in a joyride.



He's not her husband yet, they are engaged. Not by her choice, either.

Many seem to forget that Sola healed his internal organs.
I don't think any of what you said justifies Sola's actions...AT ALL. You're marrying a man you don't like, but that man (although have a lot of character flaws) is more than decent to you. NOT ONLY do you take a shit on his respect and love to you, you also threaten his life and physically hurt him (right he didn't feel it so it's okay to break his fingers, let's try that on some paralyzed man and see how he feels). No body is asking Sola to return the love, but no body is expecting her to bleed him dry just so that she can have A-Class Lancing done to her.
I agree than a man or a woman stuck in a marriage with someone that they do not love is definitely more than just bitter suffering. However you never have to resort to torture (both psychological and physical) to your partner, especially when said partner actually loves you. Sure go cheat on him, go get a divorce if you can, get things cleared out with him...be his friend, what ever.
Also she healed him for her own agenda, not because she wanted to. Well sure she didn't kill Kayneth but that in no way makes her a better person.

This isn't in any way sexist. I am criticizing Sola as a human being, not as a woman. She just happens to be a woman being a bitch to her husband. I can certainly criticize Caster for being a horrible gentleman caller...who on earth blow up kids instead of getting some flowers and a ring?
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Old 2011-11-28, 08:41   Link #152
Haak
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
Wow you actually make a very interesting point here. It seems like in Fate Zero Saber is the more naive one out of the two and bringing the team down while in FSN the roles are reversed with Shirou.
What Endless Twilight said was purely Kiritsugu's perspective. Imo, whilst I mostly agree with it, I think it's worth noting that Kiritsugu could've done a better job of not being such an ass to Saber beforehand. We never saw Saber fight such an honorable opponent in FSN but I think that she wouldn't have acted the same way if it were Shirou. It's just as much Kiritsugu's fault since he's refusing to cooperate with Saber as well.

Also although this is offtopic, I don't think the roles are entirely reversed. In the Fate route, I think Shirou and Saber learn from each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
You shouldn't take her words at face value. It was never about honor with her. Or else she wouldn't fight using an invisible sword. It's all about wanting to be acknowledged by Kiritsugu. Remember that her main complaint was that Kiritsugu had so little faith in her.

In contrast to this, Lancer respects and acknowledges her a warrior she wished to be. I'm not saying she wants to ride Lancer's spear, but it's clear she let herself be swayed by his charms because it made her feel appreciated dare I say, needed deep inside.

Magic resistance has nothing to do with this. It's about mental fortitude. As a heroic spirit she should have above average, but Lancer still managed to take advantage of that weakness suavely.
I think you're over analysing really. She considers Invisible Air to be a legitimate use of her abilities and her main complaint against Kiritsugu is that he's not letting her stop Caster from killing innocent children.
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Last edited by Haak; 2011-11-28 at 09:25.
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Old 2011-11-28, 10:01   Link #153
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I think what Key Board is trying to say is if not due to the circumstances, Saber really wants to fuck Lancer. And vice-versa.
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Old 2011-11-28, 10:19   Link #154
Haak
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Lol, I think that's overanalysing as well. Certainly they like each other but I don't think there's any UST between the two. Their relationship is purely camaraderie, imo.
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Old 2011-11-28, 10:24   Link #155
jonli
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What Endless Twilight said was purely Kiritsugu's perspective. Imo, whilst I mostly agree with it, I think it's worth noting that Kiritsugu could've done a better job of not being such an ass to Saber beforehand. We never saw Saber fight such an honorable opponent in FSN but I think that she wouldn't have acted the same way if it were Shirou. It's just as much Kiritsugu's fault since he's refusing to cooperate with Saber as well.

Also although this is offtopic, I don't think the roles are entirely reversed. In the Fate route, I think Shirou and Saber learn from each other.

We don't know why, or at least I don't since I didn't read the novel, Kiritsugu is acting like this towards Saber. There might be some inner monologue/reason why he doesn't acknowledge Saber as a partner. The roles are reversed, they're just not exact. Where Kiritsugu failed to do Saber probably does it a lot better with Shirou. Characters learning from their mistakes. She probably doesn't realize it but she's in the "god, this guy is so naive" position that Kiritsugu is in now, except that she fell in love/communicated with Shirou and understood/admired him eventually. Fate/Zero, we don't know yet.

If I'm going to take a wild guess here is that Saber has too much honor, which is something that Kiritsugu use to have and respected when he was younger? Then he realized that in order to achieve his goals and respect said honor, he would need to cast said honor aside. Which is why we end up with the Magus Killer....with a heart d'awww.
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Old 2011-11-28, 10:24   Link #156
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I'm not feeling any kind of sexual tension between the two either. They simply respect reach other as fellow knights and abide by the code of chivalry, which is extremely important to the both of them.
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Old 2011-11-28, 10:55   Link #157
Sheba
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Lancer is being a knight and a Bro to Saber, and she returns the feeling. I don't see why do we need to overanalyze it. If anything, Diarmuid is the best opponent that Saber could possibly have. It's just too bad that their Masters are mismatches for them.

I have come up with some stuff liek this:

Quote:

Fate/Zero Servants at a bar.

Diarmuid, "My master is not caring for rules of gentlemen, but I am doing my best to serve him. However I am afraid my curse is going to be my undoing again."
Arthuria, "My master don't care about chivalry and the holyness of the Grail."
Berserker,*insert something unintelligible here*
Gilles, "My master is so understanding, we are so well together."
Alexander,"My master is a little girly but with a bit of work and challenge, I can man him up."
Assassins, "..."
Gilgamesh, "My master would kill us all from boredom and old age if he was given time."
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Old 2011-11-28, 11:27   Link #158
jonli
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Come to think of it, if the curse is manifested as a beauty spot mole on Lancer's face. If he really wanted to regain his honor, shouldn't he try to scar the spot off of his face to avoid misunderstandings?
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Old 2011-11-28, 11:37   Link #159
fedor mma
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
You shouldn't take her words at face value. It was never about honor with her. Or else she wouldn't fight using an invisible sword. It's all about wanting to be acknowledged by Kiritsugu. Remember that her main complaint was that Kiritsugu had so little faith in her.

In contrast to this, Lancer respects and acknowledges her a warrior she wished to be. I'm not saying she wants to ride Lancer's spear, but it's clear she let herself be swayed by his charms because it made her feel appreciated dare I say, needed deep inside.

Magic resistance has nothing to do with this. It's about mental fortitude. As a heroic spirit she should have above average, but Lancer still managed to take advantage of that weakness suavely.
WTF. Lancer's curse is s C level curse, Saber's magic resistance is A+, she can resist the swag EASILY. Magic resistance have everything to do with it when talking about spells, curses, mystic eyes, etc. Any attachment and respect she shows Lancer is her own. Acknowledged by Kiri? She kinda hates Kiri's guts by now. Saber just wants to have honorable battles, get the Holy Grail and save glorious Britain.
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Old 2011-11-28, 12:12   Link #160
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You shouldn't take her words at face value. It was never about honor with her. Or else she wouldn't fight using an invisible sword. It's all about wanting to be acknowledged by Kiritsugu. Remember that her main complaint was that Kiritsugu had so little faith in her.
An invisible sword is just an advantage of weaponry. There's nothing dishonorable about that. She even admired Zero Lancer's battle tactics that fooled her.

The idea that honor must be stupid is a weird invention that I really suspect was made to slander what honor represents.
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