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Old 2012-08-19, 08:39   Link #661
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I could take them trying and failing.
I guess that's possible, but this anime strikes me as too lighthearted to have anything short of a mostly happy ending. Even if it's ending is bittersweet, I expect it to be heavy on the "sweet" and light on the "bitter".


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I draw the line at them trying and failing because they were betrayed by Oojima. Even if it's because he found a worthier cause.
Yeah, I'm with you there.


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They could probably do fine without funding, but they need the club room. It's "their" space, in a way a table at the cafeteria couldn't be.
That's a good point. And I could see that being a compromise that Oojima and Satsuki arrive at: "I'm still going to cut your funding, but the club room is yours as long as you fund yourselves - That's what I'm willing to give you, Ooshima-kun, if you give me your support."
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Old 2012-08-19, 10:59   Link #662
Arya
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Since the show seems quite realistic toward politics aspects, Oojima right now has no chance to win. Moheji having a similar platform doesn't help. This was a preliminary stage, so with so many candidates there was no time to deepen each candidate platform. Has Oojima something more than simply the "save the club" slogan in his platform? What if he had to face a public debate? Satsuki would butcher him, politically speaking. The only way to level off percentages is to drag Shinonome into the scandal. Nothing more down-to-earth by the way. I'm saying that because I'm expecting Oojima to win the elections, btw. That if when they'decide to make collide the silly side of the show with the serious one, the former will prevail.
Oh, I understand why the scholarship matter wasn't touched by Satsuki. That's something not relevant** and too specific to be used in a public speech, where the contenders' arguments are aimed to the "selfish" side of the electorate or to attack her.
** how many scholarship students there are at the moment? Do they entitled to vote?
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Old 2012-08-19, 11:03   Link #663
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
I'm expecting Oojima to win the elections, btw.
I'm hoping his victory comes up a slightly different form than actually winning the election by some cataclysmic miracle where the universe showers him with chocolate covered magnetic monopoles and "attracts" all the votes. He, his friends, and the clubs can win while still losing the election.
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Old 2012-08-19, 11:10   Link #664
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Nothing against Yuuki, but I hope he doesn't win the election. For a show that's trying to achieve a certain degree of political realism that's a pretty unlikely outcome.
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Old 2012-08-19, 11:17   Link #665
Arya
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
I'm hoping his victory comes up a slightly different form than actually winning the election by some cataclysmic miracle where the universe showers him with chocolate covered magnetic monopoles and "attracts" all the votes. He, his friends, and the clubs can win while still losing the election.

Me too. but for some reason I have this feeling. So the more credible way to let us buy it, is to at least eliminate Satsuki from the equation.
If not, then I guess that they will follow the "win while still losing the election" you mention.
To be clear, I hope they will lose the election and lose the club by the way
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Old 2012-08-19, 11:26   Link #666
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I have to disagree.

Oojima's whole campaign is about saving the Food Club. Even in his speech, he brings up absolutely nothing other than saving the clubs slated to be axed by Satsuki. That's the entire reason he entered the election, and his focus still remains almost strictly on the Food Club. And the Food Club has put a lot of time and effort into trying to save their club by strenuously supporting Oojima's campaign.

You really think that the narrative is going to make it seem like all of that time and effort was entirely in vain and for no good reason whatsoever?

I think it would be an absolutely horrible ending for all of that effort to be essentially wasted, and for the Food Club to be disbanded. After all, if Oojima wasn't in this election at all, it seems pretty clear to me that Shinonome would win anyway. So if this all ends with a President Shinonome and a disbanded Food Club then this anime's entire plot will have been a total exercise in sheer vanity and pointlessness.
Why not? It's not narrative suicide for Oojima to suddenly grow up and realise that there are bigger problems worth fighting for. I'd love for the show to take that direction.

Let me clarify something here. Of all the possibilities I don't think it's the most likely one. I'm guessing that there's a third option where both the Food club and Shinonome win. But I do think that the Food club running as normal and being an enormous waste of money is a far less likely ending.

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Look, we're six episodes into this now, and at least 4 of them have been focused squarely on the election campaign. If saving the Food Club wasn't going to be that important, then the anime would have already shifted gears by now, or at least done a better job of foreshadowing such an eventual gear shift (such as showing Satsuki talking specifically about her financial aid for students policy in her speech).
It hasn't been brilliant but I think it has done the job of showing that there are darker currents running in this election. Eventually they're going to put that under more focus and I can't imagine saving a pointless club becoming that important in comparison.

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You bring up the Air Sumo club scene, but that was just a short one minute or so scene (a mostly comedic one at that), whereas serious efforts to save the Food Club has been dominating episode after episode after episode of this show.
Serious efforts? Most of it has been comedy skits, which is probably the biggest reason why I can't see the show taking it all that seriously when shit really starts to get real.

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How often is this "elephant in the room" brought up in other anime shows about school clubs facing disbandment? When an anime narrative focuses as much on saving/starting up/preserving a club as this one does on saving the Food Club, the Club almost invariably gets saved/started up/preserved. Characters never really bother to even consider "You know, we could just meet and do all of this on our own time".

I get your point, but within the world of anime, your point doesn't tend to apply.
I can't really think of many anime that involve that storyline. Only Tari Tari comes to mind they did clearly explain why they had to be official clubs as well.

And even so, when an anime narrative focuses as much on saving/starting up/preserving a club, the club invariable has some actual use or is something admirable and meaningful. There's nothing meaningful about sitting on your ass all day, eating snacks and pissing about. If the show were really bothered about making the viewer care about the club then it would've showed them doing some actual activities.
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Old 2012-08-19, 11:59   Link #667
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Guys, woah woah...you're really serious about the politics in this one huh? Even mentioning Claudius and Machiavelli LOL

Ooshima's manifesto isn't really clear yet. He wanted to save the food club but he suddenly discovers the issues around the working students, which is also the manifesto of Satsuki. Making the working whatnot into scholarship. As for Moheji, I can't say anything yet...
perhaps about what happened to episode 1? Which hasn't really thoroughly explained yet.

and also the chocolate... is she lactose intolerant?
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Old 2012-08-19, 12:12   Link #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Why not? It's not narrative suicide for Oojima to suddenly grow up and realise that there are bigger problems worth fighting for.
I think it's seriously risking narrative suicide to present your protagonists going to great lengths, over numerous episodes, to save their club, only to have them much later decide "Meh, maybe we should forget about everything we've worked for, and just totally concede to all of Satsuki's ideas."

Or if Oojima makes the decision all on his own, then that will make him look crass, for the reasons that Anh_Minh laid out, imo.


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It hasn't been brilliant but I think it has done the job of showing that there are darker currents running in this election. Eventually they're going to put that under more focus and I can't imagine saving a pointless club becoming that important in comparison.
I totally get why you think the Food Club is a pointless club. In the real world, I may well agree with you. But the fact is that these protagonists are very earnestly trying to save their club, and it's presented with total "underdogs against the world" sincerity. So much so that I've kind of bought into it myself. As silly as I myself find this Food Club to be at a conceptual level, these protagonists sure as hell seem to place a lot of value on it, and pretty much for that reason alone I kind of find myself rooting for them now.


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Serious efforts? Most of it has been comedy skits, which is probably the biggest reason why I can't see the show taking it all that seriously when shit really starts to get real.
There's been a comedy element to it to be sure, but the amount of effort that's gone into fundraising Oojima's campaign is pretty substantial. I mean, all that time preparing loads of Yaoi Sticks doubling as campaign brochures, all that time making numerous Oojima Rolls, getting loads of advice from the current President, taking the time to make those extremely good Madoka Magica cosplay outfits and showcase them, etc... This has been a major undertaking for the Food Club.


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I can't really think of many anime that involve that storyline. Only Tari Tari comes to mind they did clearly explain why they had to be official clubs as well.
Chihayafuru, Mashiro-iro Symphony, and K-On! all showcased difficulties over starting up and/or preserving a School Club as a key storyline within the broader storyline. Then there's Tari Tari, like you mentioned. Heck, even Hyouka had a touch of this at the very beginning with the Classics Club.

I'll grant you that a Food Club seems like a sillier concept than most of the clubs that were in those other anime shows, but my impression is that Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate is playing this straight regardless.

I'm just not getting that deconstruction-y wink from the show - There's no Kyubey here, there's no Gendo Ikari, there's no sudden switch from conventional to grimdark, there's almost nothing that makes me think "Yeah, this show is really going to deconstruct/subvert the whole 'Let's Save our Club!' trope aren't they?"

I'll grant you there's a couple brief moments that raise a tiny bit of doubt for me, but I just don't think it's enough to seriously suspect that this show will go down a deconstruction-y path.
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Old 2012-08-19, 12:38   Link #669
Haak
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think it's seriously risking narrative suicide to present your protagonists going to great lengths, over numerous episodes, to save their club, only to have them much later decide "Meh, maybe we should forget about everything we've worked for, and just totally concede to all of Satsuki's ideas."
That would certainly look silly, except it doesn't look nearly as silly if the anime at the same time presents a much bigger problem that they can fight for instead.

Quote:
Or if Oojima makes the decision all on his own, then that will make him look crass, for the reasons that Anh_Minh laid out, imo.
I honestly don't think Oojima would do it alone and don't see why that's even being considered when there's plenty of ways for Oojima to end up backing Shinonome without betraying them. But even if he did, heck I wouldn't even mind. But that's just me.

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I totally get why you think the Food Club is a pointless club. In the real world, I may well agree with you. But the fact is that these protagonists are very earnestly trying to save their club, and it's presented with total "underdogs against the world" sincerity. So much so that I've kind of bought into it myself. As silly as I myself find this Food Club to be at a conceptual level, these protagonists sure as hell seem to place a lot of value on it, and pretty much for that reason alone I kind of find myself rooting for them now.

There's been a comedy element to it to be sure, but the amount of effort that's gone into fundraising Oojima's campaign is pretty substantial. I mean, all that time preparing loads of Yaoi Sticks doubling as campaign brochures, all that time making numerous Oojima Rolls, getting loads of advice from the current President, taking the time to make those extremely good Madoka Magica cosplay outfits and showcase them, etc... This has been a major undertaking for the Food Club.
In the real world it would be but I've gotten the impression that they're not actually putting that much blood sweat and tears into this. It's more like they're enjoying the whole thing as a fun ride.

Quote:
Chihayafuru, Mashiro-iro Symphony, and K-On! all showcased difficulties over starting up and/or preserving a School Club as a key storyline within the broader storyline. Then there's Tari Tari, like you mentioned. Heck, even Hyouka had a touch of this at the very beginning with the Classics Club.

I'll grant you that a Food Club seems like a sillier concept than most of the clubs that were in those other anime shows, but my impression is that Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate is playing this straight regardless.

I'm just not getting that deconstruction-y wink from the show - There's no Kyubey here, there's no Gendo Ikari, there's no sudden switch from conventional to grimdark, there's almost nothing that makes me think "Yeah, this show is really going to deconstruct/subvert the whole 'Let's Save our Club!' trope aren't they?"

I'll grant you there's a couple brief moments that raise a tiny bit of doubt for me, but I just don't think it's enough to seriously suspect that this show will go down a deconstruction-y path.
I don't think it has to be grimdark for them to realise that there are more important things in life than a pointless club.

The out of the anime you've mentioned I've only seen Chihayafuru and Hyouka. Chihayafuru featured karuta as the central focus, unlike in this anime where there's little thought or focus gone into the Food club's activities (because they have none). If you took karuta out of Chihayafuru then there wouldn't be much left since it's the driver for everything. In contrast, the club could feasibly stop eating chocolate all day and there'd still be plenty of other plot points to work with. Hyouka is too insignificant here to even consider.

I don't think them saving the club would be completely subverted either but i find it hard to see how it will remain a central issue when the show has already hinted at far more significant issues coming our way.
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Old 2012-08-19, 12:49   Link #670
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Something I just remembered... This is an eroge adaptation, so at some point I expect romance to become more important than any of what we're talking about now.

So it's possible that the election/food club issues will ultimately end up just being a backdrop for romance, really.

And I also think that which girl the anime chooses to put Oojima with could play a large role in how the election plays out.

So in fairness to you, Haak, if they go with Satsuki/Oojima, then what I previously found hard to picture now becomes less so.
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Old 2012-08-19, 12:53   Link #671
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Keep in mind that the reason they want to save the club is not because the club itself or its activities have any particular value. The reason they want to save the club is because of what it represents to them as a group of friends. Regardless of its dubious worth, it means something to these characters, and became something they were willing to fight for together.

Who says that school clubs have to be "productive", anyway? The only rules normally are that you have to have the minimum number of students, and that you have to have a responsible teacher. They have that, so why should Satsuki tell them they don't meet the cut? (It's certainly no less pointless than, say, the SOS-dan... )
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Old 2012-08-19, 12:57   Link #672
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Something I just remembered... This is an eroge adaptation, so at some point I expect romance to become more important than any of what we're talking about now.

So it's possible that the election/food club issues will ultimately end up just being a backdrop for romance, really.

And I also think that which girl the anime chooses to put Oojima with could play a large role in how the election plays out.

So in fairness to you, Haak, if they go with Satsuki/Oojima, then what I previously found hard to picture now becomes less so.
I can imagine at least a few VN readers reading all of this and face palming at our ignorance and want to scream at us at how wrong we all are.

Given that there are apparently multiple routes in VN. Yeah, i suppose we have to remind ourselves that there definitely other ways the show can go. It's also possible we've both inadvertently latched on to two different VN ending.
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Old 2012-08-19, 13:11   Link #673
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I don't think them saving the club would be completely subverted either but i find it hard to see how it will remain a central issue when the show has already hinted at far more significant issues coming our way.
Well, when you're having an election strategy, and suddenly your values change you're in trouble with your voters. I'd love to see "saving the clubs" turning from desire to duty. That would be interesting. Take the "gift/investment" of their two supporters. They're entering a decadence-preservation loop, and even if they realise what they're up to, it's not easy to get out without upsetting people. Even if they "see the light", they're making commitments they have to honour.

The anime way tends to be a redifinition of the goal, rather than an abandonment of the same. Such a reversal might be a good vehicle to achieve this.

I'm not sure how the corruption-story fits in. I suppose they must redefine the groundrules or perish.
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Old 2012-08-19, 13:29   Link #674
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Keep in mind that the reason they want to save the club is not because the club itself or its activities have any particular value. The reason they want to save the club is because of what it represents to them as a group of friends. Regardless of its dubious worth, it means something to these characters, and became something they were willing to fight for together.

Who says that school clubs have to be "productive", anyway? The only rules normally are that you have to have the minimum number of students, and that you have to have a responsible teacher. They have that, so why should Satsuki tell them they don't meet the cut? (It's certainly no less pointless than, say, the SOS-dan... )
I understand why you put productive in quotes, because it can sometimes be hard to nail down exactly what a club should and should not entail. I personally don't think lazing around, talking and eating sweets is a worthwhile club; go do that on their own time. But I also agree that the primary reason they're having this campaign is to preserve the special bonds they've made with each other via the Food Research Club. This is actually a very important factor of any club. The friendships and memories you share with others members can be equally or more important than the activities themselves. But the issue goes back to funding. Like any other institution, the school has finite resources, so inevitably some things have more priority than others. Having clubs of all shapes and sizes for every student to enjoy is nice, but providing aid to poor students is a no-brainer. Right now I don't support Oojima's election because it's too narrow and self-serving, but I predict there will be a compromise anyways.
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Old 2012-08-19, 14:11   Link #675
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Oojima hasn't even made an actual manifest or plans yet, because Mouri said that he shouldn't focus on it during the prelims a few episodes ago.

I don't think that people should judge him on his political agenda, because aside from saving the clubs he hasn't formed anything else yet.
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Old 2012-08-19, 15:06   Link #676
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I understand why you put productive in quotes, because it can sometimes be hard to nail down exactly what a club should and should not entail. I personally don't think lazing around, talking and eating sweets is a worthwhile club; go do that on their own time. But I also agree that the primary reason they're having this campaign is to preserve the special bonds they've made with each other via the Food Research Club. This is actually a very important factor of any club. The friendships and memories you share with others members can be equally or more important than the activities themselves. But the issue goes back to funding. Like any other institution, the school has finite resources, so inevitably some things have more priority than others. Having clubs of all shapes and sizes for every student to enjoy is nice, but providing aid to poor students is a no-brainer. Right now I don't support Oojima's election because it's too narrow and self-serving, but I predict there will be a compromise anyways.
Well, I don't think I'd vote for him either. But that's not the same as wanting to see him betray those who did vote for him.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's been a comedy element to it to be sure, but the amount of effort that's gone into fundraising Oojima's campaign is pretty substantial. I mean, all that time preparing loads of Yaoi Sticks doubling as campaign brochures, all that time making numerous Oojima Rolls, getting loads of advice from the current President, taking the time to make those extremely good Madoka Magica cosplay outfits and showcase them, etc... This has been a major undertaking for the Food Club.
And his support committee from... the garage and the doujin clubs?

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I'm just not getting that deconstruction-y wink from the show - There's no Kyubey here, there's no Gendo Ikari, there's no sudden switch from conventional to grimdark, there's almost nothing that makes me think "Yeah, this show is really going to deconstruct/subvert the whole 'Let's Save our Club!' trope aren't they?"
There was a girl run over by a car. Has she even woken up?

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Why not? It's not narrative suicide for Oojima to suddenly grow up and realise that there are bigger problems worth fighting for. I'd love for the show to take that direction.
The problem with representative democracy is that you're not really supposed to use power for yourself, but for the people who voted you in, based on the ideas you presented to them. It shouldn't be about giving people the power to do whatever strikes their fancy at any given time. Now that he's a candidate, he represents more than just Oojima Yuuki. Any favor he buys, any deal he strikes, will be on dime (figurative or, in some cases, literal) of those who campaigned or voted for him.
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Old 2012-08-19, 15:30   Link #677
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I'm pretty sure at this point most of the people voted for him for shits and giggles so I don't think he has to worry about changing his stance at this point.

And he's not even power yet anyway so he has nothing to abuse.
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Old 2012-08-19, 16:13   Link #678
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Since the topic was on the voting him in if I recall correctly, Mouri said 400 votes he could muster up for Oojima.

Normally running as a complete newbie to get 10% votes realistically could be difficult bar being favored either by stance, popularity, or just something really attractive.

However, if you take out 400, then getting 200 votes, when about 10 is already in their little circle, that means they only needed to absorb 190/6000 people. And even if underhanded stuff went on and it was more like Mouri mustering up less than 400 (say 300), that's still only about 290 - 300 out of 6000 needed.

Basically with Yuuki's antics and speech, while it's not a winning formula, actively achieving 5% of the votes doesn't seem too farfetch'd.

The strategy was to pass anyways. It's a nice insight on the value of votes and how ridiculously hard it is to get some (and analyzing some human behavior like the senior thing). It is preliminary after all, and if the two top contenders are literally certain, you can easily puncture a percentage of votes to a third party.

Oh well, the real challenge has yet to come.
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Old 2012-08-19, 17:30   Link #679
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But the issue goes back to funding. Like any other institution, the school has finite resources, so inevitably some things have more priority than others. Having clubs of all shapes and sizes for every student to enjoy is nice, but providing aid to poor students is a no-brainer.
Well, Satsuki has framed it as a trade-off, but that doesn't mean her solution is the only one.

I think I've mentioned this before, but one point to consider is the club funding formula. How do they determine how much each club deserves? One presumes, based on Satsuki's campaign strategy, that each club gets rather significant funding just by virtue of being approved, so there must be significant savings to be had if they cut the funding for the "more useless clubs". (If there aren't significant savings, then why bother with this approach?) But rather then her choosing what clubs are and aren't useful, wouldn't it be more fair to just do across-the-board cuts to all clubs? I would think that the larger clubs, who presumably get more funding based on being more popular, likely have more wiggle room for cuts. But it seems like she's going after the low-hanging fruit (going after unpopular clubs that less people care about = less likely to cost votes), rather than taking a bigger risk and cutting the large clubs (like "the big three"). I think a new funding formula that balances these needs could achieve the same effect (make it so that smaller clubs get less, but also that larger clubs take a hit); problem is that strategy is a hard sell because now you have a lot of people affected, rather than just a vocal minority.

And of course, there are probably other ways of addressing the financial aid issue as well. The problem with this entire issue is that it's unpopular to start with; rightly or wrongly, the average student probably does care more about the clubs than they care about the financial aid program. The larger student body may be willing to sacrifice the "useless clubs" to help them, but are they really willing to give something up that matters to them? I think probably not. This is unfortunate, but voters are often selfish. We, of course, have the benefit of perspective, so we probably feel a lot more sympathy towards the financial aid students than a lot of the other students would.

In the end, I think there is supposed to be a tension in us as viewers about who/what to cheer for. I think we're not necessarily supposed to agree about the "point" of the club, but at least understand why it matters to them, and so support Yuuki in his effort to get elected. At the same time, we're supposed to understand that there are other issues that matter too, and thus sympathise with Satsuki's agenda as well (because we know it can help people like Isara).
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Old 2012-08-20, 01:26   Link #680
Anh_Minh
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Well, Satsuki has framed it as a trade-off, but that doesn't mean her solution is the only one.

I think I've mentioned this before, but one point to consider is the club funding formula. How do they determine how much each club deserves? One presumes, based on Satsuki's campaign strategy, that each club gets rather significant funding just by virtue of being approved, so there must be significant savings to be had if they cut the funding for the "more useless clubs". (If there aren't significant savings, then why bother with this approach?) But rather then her choosing what clubs are and aren't useful, wouldn't it be more fair to just do across-the-board cuts to all clubs? I would think that the larger clubs, who presumably get more funding based on being more popular, likely have more wiggle room for cuts. But it seems like she's going after the low-hanging fruit (going after unpopular clubs that less people care about = less likely to cost votes), rather than taking a bigger risk and cutting the large clubs (like "the big three"). I think a new funding formula that balances these needs could achieve the same effect (make it so that smaller clubs get less, but also that larger clubs take a hit); problem is that strategy is a hard sell because now you have a lot of people affected, rather than just a vocal minority.
I don't think it's particularly fair to treat serious clubs, who participate in tournaments and presumably use their funds for equipment and training camps, the same as air sumo or, for that matter, snack clubs.
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