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Old 2012-09-01, 02:57   Link #881
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
I can't believe Japan actually rejected her getting a route in the PSP game....all that drama would have been a GREAT route to play, easing her pain from the past, getting emotional with her and all. Sensei MARRY ME.
Maybe they just don’t like a girl who likes to drink all the time and gets drunk . I mean, she could gulp more than a gallon of beer whenever she’s in the Snack clubroom. That is just not healthy. I hope her future husband can get her to change that specific habit.
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Old 2012-09-01, 03:01   Link #882
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think it basically comes down to why you think Yuuki is rejecting her. If you think he just doesn't see her that way and he's falling in love with someone else, then it's pretty clear and he ultimately means what he said (and will he clarify that for her going forward). But, if you think he actually is attracted to Chisato but there is a reason why he doesn't feel he can approach her romantically, then his saying it's not love is just a wall he's put up. This is supported by that scene I mentioned earlier from Episode 2. The key is that he hasn't yet returned Satsuki's advances either, so at this point it isn't clear; if he had already made a clear move towards Satsuki and then made his statement to Chisato, its meaning would be clear, but so far all his encounters with Satsuki have basically been fate, not choice. So, I think it depends on what he does in the next episode or two to make his true feelings more clear. Odds are that his encounters with Satsuki will be revealed (precisely because the President wants to hide it), and how he chooses to handle that may tell us. If he doesn't make a move on Satsuki soon, then I think it's too suspicious (because she has made her intentions quite clear as well).
I actually find the bold section probably the most hidden critical portion. (The other word I say is "forced" or "lead on")
Heck as a random interjection even encounters with Isara use the same fate, not choice things.

I'm trying to think of things Yuuki did by choice. Most if not all of them were developed by some preceding event. Returning Isara's key, getting nikujaga, etc etc all helpful things but it was caused from request or random occurrence. The only thing off the top of my head is like, the end of episode 2 where he gave that speech or didn't want to do something (and hence as a contrast some of the characters encouraged he do something instead, ex: campaign, etc)


Anime viewers might be like wait, how does Yuuki directly tell Mifuyu that he looks at Chisato in a different way, and then recently you see he definitely specified it and that it wasn't love.


Yuuki sure exercise a lot of self control. I mean there were multiple girls that straight up asked the most direct questions possible. No beating around the bush.
Speaking of control he seems to prefer it, but then again if he encounters a nice situation he'll take it as it is, depending on what it is.

Spoiler:


Although a non-decision would be terrible (this episode certainly had no definitive choices, which irritated Hazuki lol), I'm personally not in favor of a love triangle effect at all.


I'm still thinking Yuuki would go for a situation where he actually has some control of the situation. (wait that favors Chisato lol).

The only thing I'm wondering is this: Yuuki was pretty grin-inducing in like episode 2 and 3 over Satsuki, but when he has private time with Satsuki there's none of that effect. The absence of it from like episodes 4 - 7 were due to election and competitive relevance, so that's understandable.
(Yuuki's still grin inducing on Isara but it could just be the positive innocence, as there was none of that this episode when more serious talk occurred.).

(... or is the anime implying Yuuki doesn't like this "hey Satsuki don't try to do an action with me that your sister did (that's forced)" similar to like "Chisato can you not *whatever reason it is that he answered the way he did which is probably a future spoiler*")

I prefer the new love option because the anime has shown Yuuki away time from Chisato. That and this is like one of the few series which actually has a premise of this possibility right from the get go (so it doesn't look like a 180 decision at all).

I'm guessing there needs to be a key talk or event or some critical conversion that takes Yuuki's attention and makes him surprised or think or bring about some revelation of some really critical important. If a decision is made from what is *right now* then it would seem too impulsive, hence what he said to Hazuki or even Chisato for that matter.

Just something that declares some overall importance or opens his mind (there's quite a bit of open mind effects, campaigning being one of them).

Despite only like 5 episodes left, seems like a LOT of stuff is going to happen relatively speaking.


EDIT: Another way I'm seeing this is that there's a lot of "facade effects". This is what I mean.
We know that Satsuki thought Yuuki has some closer relationship with Hazuki and may know about *plot stuff* but the truth was, he didn't
Everyone in the club basically immediately and unanimously relegated Yuuki to run for the campaign. The speech that Yuuki gave that further justified it was good, but it was clear that Yuuki was adamant about saying he wasn't cut for student council president. Clearly he didn't think he was cut for the job (and objectively speaking, it's true, if he were doing it along, and only done possible via the help from literally everyone).
He didn't think/want the relationship with Chisato to be seen as a love point. Chisato thought so (or was having doubts by local oddities) but he was clear on the point.

Well then there are also things where on face value he's not convinced up so he can't just outright listen to the decision. Sometimes he "can't help it", but likely he would prefer if he could help it. So I guess when he finds a situation where he can genuinely help and make a difference (hm maybe if elected lol) then he'll be driven on a positive manner that wasn't forcible, who knows.

Conclusion on the facade point: There's a lot of "oh you're so amazing" but Yuuki's like dude I'm just a regular guy (or at least not this super amazing person, which he definitely said more or less.). (I'm wondering if this is related to why he can see a propeller or the Moheji mask, kind of like "true nature" sort of thing.) A lot and I mean a LOT of characters see this like magnificent white horse prince boy when he's consistently stating that he's not.
Yuuki seems more convinced when something occurs that is more eye opening. Possibly something new? Broadened scopes? Something out of the usual trend, or something important.

Spoiler:



Uh wait I just realized I had another question on like way back in episode 2.
Spoiler:

Last edited by amoirsp; 2012-09-01 at 03:24. Reason: EDIT: Another pointer
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Old 2012-09-01, 03:26   Link #883
Tenchi Ryu
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Maybe they just don’t like a girl who likes to drink all the time and gets drunk . I mean, she could gulp more than a gallon of beer whenever she’s in the Snack clubroom. That is just not healthy. I hope her future husband can get her to change that specific habit.
Her drinking seemed to be used to ease her mind. She might just like drinking to do it, but she had a very troubled past and could have been using the liquor as a get away. But now that she at least has a better relationship with her sister now, maybe she won't need as much.
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Old 2012-09-01, 05:53   Link #884
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There is a love triangle in this anime... but it now seems to involve the Shinonome Sisters fighting over Oojima.

Don't get me wrong, I get the symbolic and meta arguments in favor of Chisato. But man, that may be the smoothest friendzoning I've ever seen. The way Oojima handled Chisato's confession to him was just so smooth, steady, confident, and clear that it's hard for me to see how Chisato can "bounce back" from this in a believable way. Going for straightforward sex appeal is likely not going to work, as Chisato has already tried that.


At this point, I personally have to think that Satsuki is the favorite to end up with Oojima, by sheer process of elimination.

Michiru hasn't had anywhere near enough character development/focus to be the girl that Oojima ends up with, and now Mifuyu and Isara are starting to join her in that regard, imo. To put it another way, if the anime was aiming for an Oojima/Mifuyu end or an Oojima/Isara end, we should have seen more focus placed on that "winning girl" by now, imo. Mifuyu had one nice episode but not much besides, while Isara has had nice moments here and there but nothing that feels that substantial when taken as a whole.

Satsuki and Chisato are clearly the two girls that have received the most focus and development of the five main heroines, and Chisato certainly appears to have been friendzoned... and so that leaves Satsuki looking like the favorite to me, by sheer process of elimination.


Anyway, putting aside the broader romance discussion for a second, I enjoyed Episode 8 of this anime more than I thought I would. As much as the election aspect of the show is what intrigues me the most, I also found all of the character dynamics between Oojima and the Shinonome Sisters pretty fun and intriguing.

Hazuki is a character that I thought I would never take seriously, but I honestly found her big moments in this episode quite compelling and touching (the dramatic timing of a lot of these moments was just about flawless, imo). It was good to see the strained sibling relationship between Hazuki and Satsuki addressed like it was, and for some excellent revelations made concerning their family background.

The nature of Hazuki's relationship with Oojima is also pretty interesting to me. Just how did she fall in love with him? Why does Oojima do what he does for her? What binds them this way? It's certainly unusual for a teenage guy and his 23-year old teacher to have an ambiguous relationship like this. Oojima may not be in a romance with Hazuki, but he does pay her a lot of care and attention. He feels something for her, that's for sure.

Should Oojima end up with Satsuki, I wonder how Hazuki will handle that...


Anyway, another good episode of Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate. Both the election plot and the romance plot are loaded with great anticipation for me. "Will Oojima or Satsuki win the election?" and "Who will Oojima end up with?" are two questions that I look forward to seeing answered.
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Old 2012-09-01, 06:21   Link #885
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I still don't get why he f-worded Chisato. Sure, it could just be that he's not into her, but that doesn't seem right, especially in an anime like this. I have a feeling it's got something to do with their history and that little brother.
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Old 2012-09-01, 06:24   Link #886
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
"Will Oojima or Satsuki win the election?" and "Who will Oojima end up with?" are two questions that I look forward to seeing answered.
Dude, you forgot that the “20th Century Boys baddie wannabe” guy is also a candidate!
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Old 2012-09-01, 06:40   Link #887
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Should Oojima end up with Satsuki, I wonder how Hazuki will handle that...
I'm pretty sure Hazuki will be supportive. She does really care for Satsuki, and this will also keep Yuuki in the family, allowing him to continue to cook for her.

As for candidate #3 with the funky mask, I'm pretty sure some scandal will derail his campaign. My bet is the girl from the hospital will play a huge part in all of this.
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Old 2012-09-01, 06:43   Link #888
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Originally Posted by Lukeman1884 View Post
I still don't get why he f-worded Chisato. Sure, it could just be that he's not into her, but that doesn't seem right, especially in an anime like this. I have a feeling it's got something to do with their history and that little brother.
Spoiler for Probable Explanation:
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Old 2012-09-01, 08:01   Link #889
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I still don't get why he f-worded Chisato. Sure, it could just be that he's not into her, but that doesn't seem right, especially in an anime like this. I have a feeling it's got something to do with their history and that little brother.
I'm not sure why that doesn't seem right in "an anime like this". It's not uncommon for male leads in unified format VN adaptations to choose one girl over all others, and simply be platonic friends with the rest.

Also, in real life, when you perceive a person as a friend for a long period of time, it can be difficult to perceive that same person as a possible romantic/sexual partner. It's like a milder version of the Westermack Effect. It doesn't mean that Oojima thinks that Chisato is physically unattractive (at an intellectual level, he probably realizes that she's an attractive girl). It might just mean that he can't see her that way.

Oojima's reaction to Chisato coming unto him in the bath (in Episode 7) struck me as a classic case of this, actually. He didn't get all that flustered (I don't recall him blushing up a storm or nosebleeding much), he simply became a bit on edge/agitated. Couple that with how he rejected Chisato in this episode, and yeah, it's hard for me to see Chisato coming back from this. I guess it's possible, but it would take some awfully good writing to believably pull it off, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Dude, you forgot that the “20th Century Boys baddie wannabe” guy is also a candidate!
He's a pretty good antagonist, but I don't see him as much of a serious threat.

But I guess the anime could pull a surprise and have him win somehow. Suspicion of Oojima and Satsuki being romantically involved with each other, and news of Satsuki protecting Oojima while he was sneaking around the girls' dorms... if that was to get out, it could sink both of their campaigns, causing Mr. Mask to be elected President by default.

I still think that there's a 99% chance that either Oojima or Satsuki wins the election though.
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Old 2012-09-01, 09:08   Link #890
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There is a love triangle in this anime... but it now seems to involve the Shinonome Sisters fighting over Oojima.

Don't get me wrong, I get the symbolic and meta arguments in favor of Chisato. But man, that may be the smoothest friendzoning I've ever seen. The way Oojima handled Chisato's confession to him was just so smooth, steady, confident, and clear that it's hard for me to see how Chisato can "bounce back" from this in a believable way. Going for straightforward sex appeal is likely not going to work, as Chisato has already tried that.


At this point, I personally have to think that Satsuki is the favorite to end up with Oojima, by sheer process of elimination.
I would totally agree with you if Chisato's arc was already aired, but since it is not yet, and considering that it will have some big revelation (or so I think), I (sadly) can't agree with you. Even if such a turn of events would be something awesome, just after such a great reunion they (Shinonome's) had.
Not that it could not happen, on the contrary, I find your points quite consistent, but there is this point omniscentflame put out that I think it gives the reading key of the romance in this show:

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, basically, I think it all comes down to how you interpret one important scene: Episode 2 after the OP.
Spoiler for Episode 2, post-OP, selected lines:


Basically, I think you can view the entire show through this narrative (since it's really pointing at the theme of the work -- that's basically what those sorts of flashbacks are for). But what does it mean?

My interpretation (at least right now) is that the entire anime is Yuuki living his proverbial dream where he's constantly meeting "wonderful people" (potential love interests), because even though love is right next to him, he feels he can't reach it (the barrier between him and Chisato). So, he decided that he needs to look for a "better love". The big question is: did he find it in Satsuki or not? And if so, is he going to choose "that dream", or is he going to instead try to reach for that "tough reality" after all?

Essentially, the whole story is about love that isn't meant to be. Whether that's Hazuki (somewhat half-jokingly), or Mifuyu, or... (insert either Chisato or Satsuki here). Everything basically hinges on whether he falls more in love with one of the other girls he meets than the love he's always had for Chisato, and so is willing to give that first love up.

So what'll be it be? First love, or new love?
This. I had totally forgotten this part, now I remember why I had, in the first episodes, this feeling of Oojima "forcing" himself to find someone else. An undefined feeling that kept me putting Chisato as the leading girl all this time.
And if I had to answer to your last question, well I'd do with another question. If we were to see it as something you can have or not have .. for which of those your desire would be more inflamed?

On a very marginal note, if Chisato had to chose a "particular" route, seriously, I can't see SD happening. If anything, and for the lulz, she could take the Kaede route.
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Old 2012-09-01, 10:55   Link #891
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I would totally agree with you if Chisato's arc was already aired,
I don't see much wiggle room in how Oojima rejected Chisato. Do you? And the delivery of the rejection suggested that Oojima had total clarity about, and confidence in, what he was saying.

And we're eight episodes into this now. At this point, there should be some clear signs linking Oojima to whichever girl he ultimately ends up with (even plot twisty Mashiro-iro Symphony had revealed its final leanings by this point, IIRC). There's not many clear signs linking Oojima to Chisato at a romantic level.

All the dream symbolism and meta commentary in the world shouldn't take the place of believable character and narrative development, imo. Sadly, that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't take the place, but I'd like to give the anime makers the benefit of the doubt here. So I'm leaning towards them not pulling romance developments out of thin air... which would make Satsuki the favorite, since the narrative as is would most smoothly transition into an Oojima/Satsuki final pairing of all the options available, imo.

Seriously, if the plan is to go with Oojima/Chisato, the way Oojima rejected her should have had more wiggle room, imo.
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Old 2012-09-01, 11:10   Link #892
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After 8 episodes in, I sure hope they go with a different route since it'll be boring to have the same result in the end for every show like this. More Mashiro and less bland predictability. One can only take another forced development thrown right at us only to get the typical pity card for the heroine to win in a lame way. 2,678 harems use this crap.

For anime sake, change it up!!! There's always a 2nd choice.
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Old 2012-09-01, 13:05   Link #893
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Plus, her interest in him started even before she knew he was running in the election; she even encouraged him to run. I can't really see how he helps her in any electoral way (if anything, the fact he made it through to the finals is only hurting her chances, even though she's still way in the lead right now).
somehow I got the feeling that Satsuki totally became another person whenever she meet Yuki , suddenly her voice is softer and smile a lot.
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Old 2012-09-01, 18:08   Link #894
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I don't see much wiggle room in how Oojima rejected Chisato. Do you? And the delivery of the rejection suggested that Oojima had total clarity about, and confidence in, what he was saying.

And we're eight episodes into this now. At this point, there should be some clear signs linking Oojima to whichever girl he ultimately ends up with (even plot twisty Mashiro-iro Symphony had revealed its final leanings by this point, IIRC). There's not many clear signs linking Oojima to Chisato at a romantic level.

All the dream symbolism and meta commentary in the world shouldn't take the place of believable character and narrative development, imo. Sadly, that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't take the place, but I'd like to give the anime makers the benefit of the doubt here. So I'm leaning towards them not pulling romance developments out of thin air... which would make Satsuki the favorite, since the narrative as is would most smoothly transition into an Oojima/Satsuki final pairing of all the options available, imo.

Seriously, if the plan is to go with Oojima/Chisato, the way Oojima rejected her should have had more wiggle room, imo.
Yep, as I said I would totally agree with you, but I have this feeling that the dream symbolism has enough weight in the story to leave room for an Oojima/Chisato paring. I find quite strange they would have given away Chisato's route so straightforwardly even before showing her arc. And given the presumed drama her arc would bring to light, you know how pitiful her character would become and you know how the viewers could react to this (Zessica, are you there?) despite how consistent the narrative is (no, I'm not talking about you Kawamori). So I could see that happens if her past would have something in common with kaede (leaving aside her metamorphosis). And that would even mean that there was no love triangle to begin with. Quite atypical at least.

Speaking of Oojima's steadiness I had a different impression of that, I saw that as in character of him. I mean, he is not the standard harem MC, whenever and whatever the topic was (romance wise) he responded thoroughly, or more thoroughly than a normal MC would do. He didn't deny blushing when questioned about Hazuki and he got at least the content of the fake speech Mifuyu wrote for him. He is not dense nor dumb. My impression is that he is aware of what happens around him more or less, he know who has feeling for him (that maybe is a bit too much, but anyways, let's say a glimpse), he is a sentient MC All this preamble is to say that I interpreted the firmness on how he rejected Chisato as directly proportional to the gravity of that unknown accident. That could be transposed roughly as, the more I care about you the more I keep you away (for that *unknown reason*). Not exactly this, but something similar. I know it's not fully consistent because he was really firmness, no doubt.
We are seeing things from opposite angles, you from what the narrative let us see, me from what I suppose the narrative is trying to hiding.

Anyways everything could still happen. I'm just trying to say that Chisato has 60% 50,1% and Satsuki 49,9%. But narrative-wise I agree with you that the road should be already defined, let's say that I'm less optimistic. Because, to make it clear if it wasn't, Satsuki is my favorite here
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Last edited by Arya; 2012-09-01 at 18:21.
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Old 2012-09-01, 19:08   Link #895
Tenchi Ryu
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At first I thought he was just putting Hazuki off or being the typical indecisive harem MC. But the fact he actually told her he wants time to think about it is really telling to me. Just what does this woman do to him? He clearly cares for her to the point where he almost gets himself in trouble just to make sure she's safe. And even with him knowing she flirts with him, he still insists on going to her house and cooking for her. You could say he cares for her but not like that, but in this SAME episode he was able to confirm this with Chisato that its a platonic love.

I honestly think maybe in the back of his head, he's thought about the idea of being with her before.
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Old 2012-09-01, 19:08   Link #896
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ok this episode made me shed a tear but overall it was really good and i think oojima has both sisters wanting him lol YAY FOR HAREMS! ;P
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Old 2012-09-01, 20:19   Link #897
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Oojima's reaction to Chisato coming unto him in the bath (in Episode 7) struck me as a classic case of this, actually. He didn't get all that flustered (I don't recall him blushing up a storm or nosebleeding much), he simply became a bit on edge/agitated. Couple that with how he rejected Chisato in this episode, and yeah, it's hard for me to see Chisato coming back from this. I guess it's possible, but it would take some awfully good writing to believably pull it off, imo.
I mentioned this before, but he was definitely quite attracted to Chisato in that scene. Although they didn't show him "nosebleeding", the scene afterwards with Yuuki showed that his body certainly he had a reaction. In fact, his body is always reacting to Chisato, right from the get-go. But he is deliberately shutting her out and rejecting her advances. Plus, as I said before, he hasn't actually advanced on anyone else yet (contrary to the other example you mentioned).

I guess the key is that we haven't really seen Yuuki's thoughts yet. To me, the biggest problem wouldn't be developing the romance with Chisato in a convincing way (all they have to do is reveal why Yuuki's holding himself back), but rather how to wind-down all the build-up with Satsuki should they go that way. There's very little drama at this point in seeing Satsuki rejected, so it feels like a dead-end, whereas the drama in seeing Chisato rejected is clear. So to me, that's the bigger problem... but I guess it's not insurmountable. We'll see what they do...
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Old 2012-09-01, 20:31   Link #898
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Is Satsuki's route finish with this episode? Chisato got rejected too early in the show for me to believe that she is done.
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Old 2012-09-01, 20:38   Link #899
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Is Satsuki's route finish with this episode? Chisato got rejected too early in the show for me to believe that she is done.
Basically, nobody knows, not even game players. It depends on what they do next.

Spoiler for Comparison to the game, already shown only:
I mentioned this in the game thread, but I honestly don't think this is a show where knowing the source material helps you see what's happening because of the unique way they've retold the story. Everything I've said is basically ignoring the game and trying to go only on anime hints, since they're not following any game route as written. I don't really think "anything can happen"... but I don't think anyone can know for sure. That's what makes the speculation fun!
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Old 2012-09-01, 21:36   Link #900
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