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Old 2012-09-21, 16:40   Link #1321
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Argh... I can't believe how many people believe this. *sigh...* Apparently an argument that will never be won with some people...

And that's why i always preferred the road of getting to the romance instead of the destination.
For romances i don't have problems which heroine is choosen as long as the developments are believable. For me Mashifoni did a great job at handling the romance, while koichoco is pretty lacking at that. Atleast i don't think it's as bad as some animes like
Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-21, 16:43   Link #1322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post

And that's why i always preferred the road of getting to the romance instead of the destination.
For romances i don't have problems which heroine is choosen as long as the developments are believable. For me Mashifoni did a great job at handling the romance, while koichoco is pretty lacking at that.
Well, I'm always in support of main heroine.. if that doesn't happen my interest would drop by 40% if poor execution.. 60%.. IMHO
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Old 2012-09-21, 16:49   Link #1323
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Well, I'm always in support of main heroine.. if that doesn't happen my interest would drop by 40% if poor execution.. 60%.. IMHO
Choosing to like a serie because you like the main heroine can easily backfire on you, especially if you are reading VN's or eroge's. (which is very true for koichoco)
I agree that the majority of these socalled "main heroines" have the better written stories of all routes (even more so for games with a "true end") but that doesn't mean the heroines themselves are always the most likable ones.
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Old 2012-09-21, 17:00   Link #1324
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Originally Posted by Snuffle View Post
When I think about it... Hoshizora, had a very similar way of handling who the protag would end up with like Koichoco. It was not clear but there were many hints. I'm not sure what I could make of this but I thought I should throw it out there for people to discuss. But imo, this should be the show that Koichoco is compared to instead of Mashiro-iro. However to be clear, I do feel the bath scene in Mashiro-iro to be a similar way of handling how far in the relationship the protag has gotten with that paticular girl to be comparable with Satsuki in Koichoco.
The reason why I would not include Hoshizora is essentially, I've erased it from my memory.

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Spoiler for Comparison
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Spoiler for Koichoco to Mashiro Comparison:
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The development for KoiChoco was just not very good. Yuuki showed no signs of affection for Chisato. He showed that he cared a lot, since they are childhood friends, but beyond that, zero romantic interest. Then, all of a sudden, bam, they are lovey dovey now. That's really throwing it in the face of the audience. Add on top of that, how the series shows really good romantic development with Satsuki, but then throws her to the side to force Chisato in, it ended up making the series a mess that we are in right now.
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Old 2012-09-21, 17:05   Link #1325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Choosing to like a serie because you like the main heroine can easily backfire on you, especially if you are reading VN's or eroge's. (which is very true for koichoco)
I agree that the majority of these socalled "main heroines" have the better written stories of all routes (even more so for games with a "true end") but that doesn't mean the heroines themselves are always the most likable ones.
True.... and there are instances the other heroines out matched the main in all aspects (body, charisma etc) to make them very likeable... then as soon as we're trapped they reveal the shock that's enough to drop the anime....

Well, again.. we have different taste and views.. it can't be help... Let's just play the game and go to the route we desire....
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:15   Link #1326
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Well, I don't know what to say, letting aside for a moment Chisato and Oojima this episode was ... terrible. Ok, I didn't care of Michiru in the first place, but her healing powers are really something else. And what about Mifuyu? if she knew everything from the start why did she wait 11 episodes to speak with Chisato? I mean the way she spoke didn't feel like she "just" realized Chisato situation.
And, damn, they skipped the thing I was waiting for from episode 5 or so ... the debate. And to add insult to injury Oojima keeps being at the top of the chart, am I wrong?

Anyways, speaking of Oojima. Poor Oojima. I already wrote even too much after the previous episode and the concept I expressed was, in short, how Oojima has been "forced" doing things, or been told, if you prefer. The funny thing is that the Mouri "now I explain you your own feelings dude" moment kept following this direction. Oojima has not been able even to do it by himself. and if from a plot's coherence perspective the explanation made sense (tbh mostly for the symmetry relentlessflame has and had pointed out), they are both a bit insane, Chisato for feeding him and Oojima being fed by her, but ok, we already knew it, the outcome in terms of drama failed completely. Sure switching back and forth from him to Chisato's other "drama" moment didn't help either.

The thing that I dislike the most anyways is how the writing which was quite good til the previous episode (in relations with the mediocrity you could find these days) has been destroyed in one episode. The election on which they spent so much time and details making it the most interesting part of the show went berserk, the love was solved, but collapsing into the chocolate plot turning away from the most natural, healthy and coherent (<-from a developing pow) love path. And now Oojima probably or surely will win even the elections for the sake of a club of "lazybones" WTF this show imploded into itself
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:20   Link #1327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Yuuki showed no signs of affection for Chisato.
The guy was in denial and doubtful because of the Chocolate ritual.

Please don't say absolute zero... Leave at least 5% or even 1%.
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:20   Link #1328
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.....

Wow, what people would go through for a freakin' high school election
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:27   Link #1329
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
Ok, I didn't care of Michiru in the first place, but her healing powers are really something else. And what about Mifuyu? if she knew everything from the start why did she wait 11 episodes to speak with Chisato? I mean the way she spoke didn't feel like she "just" realized Chisato situation.
@ Michiru>>> Its the power of Friendship

@ Mifuyu>>> The smell of rotten, chocolates...



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.....

Wow, what people would go through for a freakin' high school election
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:40   Link #1330
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I don't want to hear that childhood friend finally won. Means nothing in my book if the childhood friend is the main heroine.
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:56   Link #1331
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Well I'm not going to say much about the obvious commentary. It seems pretty consistent.

1) This series was easily compared to two other recent VNs, except seemed to hit the brunt of both flaws of those series. (Momentum 180 and rush).

2) Chisato herself is fine, but the execution that lead to it wasn't really convincing, mostly due to the rushed effect. (Again I find that the *reduction* of how much she was around in earlier episodes made this look really bad since she's normally the daily everyday hangout character).

3) Blargh.

Though if I think of it another way, from a director's viewpoint, yes the decision to reduce the amount of Chisato dominance/presence early on would logically seem valid to attempt to make her disorientation over the Daiki thing seem more relevant.
However, on a viewer's spectrum, the execution of it completely backfired. I don't see how anyone could praise it. Live with it and understand why, yes, but praise it, no way.

The series' dilution was a weakpoint, but trying to wrap up things shown from the first two episodes, while good to address, went turbo overdrive.

But I'll just ask a small thing I didn't notice addressed.

I might not have paid enough attention but did anyone find it somewhat creepy that Mouri seemed to have installed wiretaps in Yuuki's residence? Sounds like he knew the conversation of episode 10. Either that or one of the two has a bug on them. That's kind of creepy.

(Then again money going around the school in TENS OF BILLIONS amount is also quite extreme, spies and whatnot.)
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Old 2012-09-21, 18:59   Link #1332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amoirsp View Post
Though if I think of it another way, from a director's viewpoint, yes the decision to reduce the amount of Chisato dominance/presence early on would logically seem valid to attempt to make her disorientation over the Daiki thing seem more relevant.
However, on a viewer's spectrum, the execution of it completely backfired. I don't see how anyone could praise it. Live with it and understand why, yes, but praise it, no way.
You're a genius! Good analysis..
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Old 2012-09-21, 19:38   Link #1333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amoirsp View Post
Though if I think of it another way, from a director's viewpoint, yes the decision to reduce the amount of Chisato dominance/presence early on would logically seem valid to attempt to make her disorientation over the Daiki thing seem more relevant.
However, on a viewer's spectrum, the execution of it completely backfired. I don't see how anyone could praise it. Live with it and understand why, yes, but praise it, no way.
This is the problem pretty much what some people (including myself) have, the story was told quite poorly considering there is a lot of good things for a great super route story the director could've taken from the game, but sadly decided not to (or at least it was chosen but executed dimly).

I personally don't care for Chisato but if she has to win because she is the main, then at least tell the story properly. It really does not matter to me which girl gets the million in any series, as long as the journey to get there was expressed in a way that does not feel like a rush job.
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Old 2012-09-21, 19:44   Link #1334
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Originally Posted by Snuffle View Post
I personally don't care for Chisato but if she has to win because she is the main, then at least tell the story properly. It really does not matter to me which girl gets the million in any series, as long as the journey to get there was expressed in a way that does not feel like a rush job.
It's sums the root of the problem. It's not the characters, but the Very Poor Story Execution
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Old 2012-09-21, 19:55   Link #1335
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EDIT: Yes, the diluted execution made the love less convincing. Basically my tl;dr says picking Chisato is fine but how it was done, despite the foreshadowing, could have been much better if there were more things to support it. Except this series had the rare case of the main girl also not having a large allocation. Usually lead girls dominate in presence and have more scenes and are more fleshed out with daily talk. That was reduced too.

Yeah I should have said the problem had more to do with the rush or lack of significant setup. Why couldn't they make this 2 cour and factor in all the additional club scenes and daily talk? You risk a problem of drowning out but you would lessen the rush effect.



This series is amusing on comparisons to other series too, since the rage on the recent episode feels like a Hoshikaka effect where the primary girl wins because she's the primary girl (or the decision to pick her seemed sudden or like a 180 despite supporting evidence). And yes I agree with hyl that what happened in the recent episode feels like this. That's why a lot of distaste is spewing among other reasons. It has little to do with any shipping, but rather just the setup and momentum that hit an invisible brick wall and ricochet'd or something.

It felt like a Mashiro effect because the girl with among the most presence dominance (in Koichoco that would be Satsuki), particularly in the common route (or first half of the series) gets conveniently sidelined. At least in Mashiro you can justify the girl that won having presence or having at least some key pointer that *wins over* the protagonist. If there wasn't enjoyment in Mashiro it may have more to do with it being boring or not really having a plot.

That's why you see comparisons to both series, and yet Koichoco managed to do some of the weakest parts of both series at the same time, rather than doing some of the strongest parts of both series at the same time (actually I wasn't aware Hoshikaka had a strong point, but nevermind that).

While Chisato's winning ways in the huge long run spectrum does make sense, this was a short series where a lot of slice of life daily antics between her and Yuuki are significantly reduced. In other words, the details which albeit minor, of things like daily club talk, which weren't used much, help support the route the best.
So it felt like instead of an *earned scenario* where Chisato convincingly wins, it felt more like a mandatory obligatory primary heroine handed win.
(Spoiler for what's probably happening in episode 12)
Spoiler:


Also as people have analyzed it, Koichoco's own title has 3 features, and everyone knows only Chisato fits in all 3 at the same time with the chocolate reason. Hence directing wise, you'd want to utilize all 3. If someone else is used, love and election would go hand in hand, but there'd be no chocolate.

I'm just disappointed since Koichoco was and probably is the only rare modern VN adaptation case where you can execute a non-primary heroine ending properly/convincingly. Instead of even using the chocolate, some viewers would have been vastly more satisfied had the anime opted for Chisato to be "too late" to win Yuuki over and him having a relationship with Satsuki (and by adding significantly more Satsuki specific scenes to justify it).

Heck Chisato was executed as a very well balanced character in my opinion. The things from early on episodes I didn't like was the insert song while she was changing, her blushing in episode 2 when Yuuki was describing a competent leader, and the Yuuki back kiss. But other than that, she was effectively utilized despite also having a lower air time or character allocation. It's nice to not have the main lead dominate presence if it isn't necessary.

This base concept of *justified non-primary heroine winning* was executed alright in Mashiro. It's just that Miu wasn't exactly a popular girl among other factors already mentioned in earlier discussions (and characters in Mashiro were reasonably fleshed or utilized. There wasn't much character backstory, but role plays were pretty distinct. It also helped that the base game only had 4 primary heroines.). But the full force route emphasis and just staying on the route all the way through certainly felt like a breakthrough for a VN adapting style that's hounded by being called a harem or some obligatory beach episode thing.


Anyways I'm just as disappointed as others are. While I can understand the series' choices and in a way, the directing decisions did cover as many bases as possible rather creatively and made the series really exciting to look for what's to come next, it would have maintained that if they didn't choose the direction they did do.

Granted I will say that the series was certainly done in a way where it feels like there's a lot of ... off screen stuff going around When watching this series you do normally want at least excitement in wanting to know what happens next, not being able to predict it, but yet realizing how the episode pans out being within expectations of what you want (or don't want) to see. I'll give the series props for that.

Yeah, as you can tell my interest in the series plummeted. And every week I had pretty much been raving how well the series had been creatively executed with the resources they had to work with. Now I don't even want the game or goods anymore and might go as far as not wanting to watch another VN adaptation ever again.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:01   Link #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

Again, from a big picture overall-narrative perspective, the romantic development in this show makes perfect sense and is quite symmetrical.
Saying it makes "perfect sense" is being rather generous towards it, imo. It's very lame. And cheesy. And horribly forced.

Do you honestly think this latest episode dealt believably and satisfactorily with Chisato's trauma? Do you really think it should be this quick and easy for her to get over the serious psychological issues that she has been displaying? Do you really think it should be this quick and easy for Oojima to go from so smoothly and easily rejecting Chisato just a few episodes ago to now a little pep talk from Mouri being enough to make him do a complete 180?

And why the hell is Mouri of all people being the guy to be Mr. Romance Sage for Oojima? Why the hell does Mouri even care?! The dude had absolutely zilch to do with Oojima's romance life the entire anime, and now he wants to play matchmaker for Oojima?


Oojima/Chisato has honestly become the most infuriating anime romance I've ever seen (and that's saying something after Aquarion EVOL ). It's not even that I feel particularly badly for any other heroine (this isn't a True Tears-like scenario for me). It's just that Oojima/Chisato is just really poorly handled in and of itself.

And that's very sad, since at the mid-point of this anime I would have been fine with Oojima/Chisato (it wasn't my first choice, necessarily, but I was cool with it). It's actually key elements from Chisato's romance route that turned me (and several other people, apparently) completely against it. It really makes me wonder just what made the writer think this constitutes a compelling romance.


I'm with you on at least one thing: There's no way Mashiro-iro Symphony should be compared to this little Chocolatey Fiasco. Mashiro-iro Symphony is a complete and utter romantic masterpiece by comparison.


One final complaint that I feel I must make - If Oojima ends up throwing the election to save the kidnapped Chisato, that is not just lame, or even mega-lame; that's giga-lame (to paraphrase a certain Accel World character).

Now if Chisato gets rescued and Oojima wins the election, that might be cool, but it's probably going to involve more Deus ex Harmonica-esque bizarreness. Plus, I'm not too optimistic here.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:13   Link #1337
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Do you honestly think this latest episode dealt believably and satisfactorily with Chisato's trauma? Do you really think it should be this quick and easy for her to get over the serious psychological issues that she has been displaying? Do you really think it should be this quick and easy for Oojima to go from so smoothly and easily rejecting Chisato just a few episodes ago to now a little pep talk from Mouri being enough to make him do a complete 180?
Oojima was on denial the whole time.

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And why the hell is Mouri of all people being the guy to be Mr. Romance Sage for Oojima? Why the hell does Mouri even care?!
*points on Kana's current condition. Cling on love when you still have the chance...

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Oojima/Chisato has honestly become the most infuriating anime romance I've ever seen (and that's saying something after Aquarion EVOL ). It's not even that I feel particularly badly for any other heroine (this isn't a True Tears-like scenario for me). It's just that Oojima/Chisato is just really poorly handled in and of itself.
It's the director's fault.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And that's very sad, since at the mid-point of this anime I would have been fine with Oojima/Chisato (it wasn't my first choice, necessarily, but I was cool with it). It's actually key elements from Chisato's romance route that turned me (and several other people, apparently) completely against it. It really makes me wonder just what made the writer think this constitutes a compelling romance.
It's the director's fault. again...

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
One final complaint that I feel I must make - If Oojima ends up throwing the election to save the kidnapped Chisato, that is not just lame, or even mega-lame; that's giga-lame (to paraphrase a certain Accel World character).
A person's has no second chance... Election does...
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:30   Link #1338
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Oojima was on denial the whole time.
Even if so, you don't see the problem here?

It really cheapens most of the Oojima-based relationship dynamics through out this entire show.

It's like a very bad comic book retcon - It introduces a new element that essentially undoes plenty of great material and character moments.

All the Oojima/Satsuki moments now seem kinda pointless, don't they? If they're all moments of Oojima just deluding himself, then it means that they were a total waste for us to watch, and it also doesn't say much about Satsuki.


Quote:
*points on Kana's current condition. Cling on love when you still have the chance...
Mouri is roughly interrogating Oojima, and is telling him that the PSC isn't supporting his campaign any more. It's a really, really odd time for Mouri to be volunteering relationship advice to Oojima, imo.

As much as I dislike the rationale being offered up for Oojima/Chisato, I'd have a much easier time accepting it if came from a proper wingman or close friend. Even if it was something that Mifuyu had said to Oojima, then I'd have an easier time with it.


Quote:
A person's has no second chance... Election does...
I certainly agree that saving a person's life is more important than winning an election.

It's just that, at a meta-level, this is a really lame way to end a major election plot. It would naturally be much more exciting and satisfying to watch an intense climatic scene where votes are gradually tallied, and an election winner is finally announced.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:42   Link #1339
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Even if so, you don't see the problem here?

It really cheapens most of the Oojima-based relationship dynamics through out this entire show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
All the Oojima/Satsuki moments now seem kinda pointless, don't they? If they're all moments of Oojima just deluding himself, then it means that they were a total waste for us to watch, and it also doesn't say much about Satsuki.
Well, Satsuki has her charms and it took Yuuki. Yeah, that's sad.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Mouri is roughly interrogating Oojima, and is telling him that the PSC isn't supporting his campaign any more. It's a really, really odd time for Mouri to be volunteering relationship advice to Oojima, imo.
Yup that's was odd.. But I'm thankful that he "knew" everything and cleared many questions.

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I certainly agree that saving a person's life is more important than winning an election.

It's just that, at a meta-level, this is a really lame way to end a major election plot. It would naturally be much more exciting and satisfying to watch an intense climatic scene where votes are gradually tallied, and an election winner is finally announced.
I think there is still time for that scenario.. since everything was rushed already.... I guess half for saving Chisato and half to be the election...
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Old 2012-09-21, 22:38   Link #1340
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Saying it makes "perfect sense" is being rather generous towards it, imo. It's very lame. And cheesy. And horribly forced.
Well, I said from a "big picture overall-narrative perspective", meaning that if you take the first two episodes and see how things were setup, and now as you look at the 11th episode and see how things are resolved, it fits very well. But, you also have to consider all the other comments I made: the road in between was certainly bumpy. For example, I think they overplayed Chisato's trauma previously to add a bit of dramatic effect (this is just as I felt the writer did in Shuffle, FWIW, which I found a bit problematic there as well). The problem with doing this is that it's very hard for the recovery to live up to the build-up. If the goal was simply that Yuuki would help Chisato get over her Chocolate issue in the time remaining, then making it seem like some sort of major psychological disorder is not in your best interests. The flaw here isn't so much in the resolution (which, as I said, aligns quite well with the show's original premise and setup), but in the fact that they exaggerated things along the way, so the resolution seems trite compared to the severity of the problem portrayed.

In a way, you could sort of argue the same thing about the Kana/Harmonica scene -- so much drama and build-up to lead to the encounter, and then all it takes is for Michiru to play Kana's harmonica and Kana wakes up. The resolution doesn't really live up to all the build-up, because the build-up was so over-drama-ified.

In the end, I guess I didn't take it as seriously as you did because I recognized the "over-dramafication" that was likely happening in the last episode. That's why I said at the time that the difference was people focusing on the severity of the trauma vs. people focusing on the symbolism of the resolution. In the end, you sort of have to be willing to be taken along for the ride, and just roll with the over-exaggerated drama as part of the thrill. Even though I do think the show could have been better-executed, I'm still actually somewhat satisfied with what we got. Each episode has still been pretty fun to watch, for me, and there are still some parts I liked (even if I wish other parts could have been done a bit differently).
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