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Old 2012-09-27, 14:58   Link #1421
Trajan
Six Shooter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
It was because her problem was sealed deeply in her heart, because of Yuuki actions in their childhood... But that not means that you can treat like it not exist. I said you few times already that its not game, but anime adaptation... A lot of eroge/visual games have holes, beucase its really hard/ almost impossible to fuse few different routes into one without creating some. In game its not usually big deal, but in anime making super route isnt sth easy to accomplish. If sth was ok in game it not means it will be still ok in anime...
I rather think her problem was that she was using Yuuki as replacement for her dead brother, and that he was enabling her by allowing her to do so. Essentially, she was a drug addict and he was her dealer.

My issue with the writers' choice to pair Chisato and Yuuki together, and their method of doing so, is that I don't buy that Chisato is actually "cured." I'm a westerner, so I interpreted Chisato stopping Mifuyu from going out in public showing off her scar as Chisato telling Mifuyu that she must hide her shame.

Therefore, I think Chisato also told herself to hide her problem--because deep-seated psychological issues aren't solved with a good hug--and as soon as another situation arises where Chisato is reminded of the accident, her craziness is going to flare-up again.

Now, someone will say, "but she ate the chocolate, which shows she is cured!' My response to that is that crazy people do a lot of things into fooling themselves and others that they are not crazy.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:02   Link #1422
hyl
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Originally Posted by Zeris View Post
Spoiler for Ending Spoiler:
Thanks to your comment i went back watching the ending in chisato's story.
Spoiler for game comparison:
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:05   Link #1423
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You can easily say now that Yuuki kept his feelings for Chisato hidden, but at the same time it was also possible he didn't had any feelings for her.
Or, I should say, that he did have feelings for her in the past, but he met someone else and he developed feelings for that other person, and this was partly brought on by the fact that his original feelings had to be kept on hold because of the situation with her brother. It's not like one person can only ever love one other person in their lifetime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
My issue with the writers' choice to pair Chisato and Yuuki together, and their method of doing so, is that I don't buy that Chisato is actually "cured." I'm a westerner, so I interpreted Chisato stopping Mifuyu from going out in public showing off her scar as Chisato telling Mifuyu that she must hide her shame.

Therefore, I think Chisato also told herself to hide her problem--because deep-seated psychological issues aren't solved with a good hug--and as soon as another situation arises where Chisato is reminded of the accident, her craziness is going to flare-up again.
Oh, I don't think that's what it's supposed to signify. Chisato stopping Mifuyu was "you don't need to go that far for my sake". Mifuyu was forcing herself to get over a major insecurity just so that Chisato would get the message, and Chisato stopped her to say "I get it".

By the same token, I don't think Chisato is necessarily fully "cured", but it's not like Yuuki is going to put up with any of it anymore. If she starts relapsing, he'll remind her of who he is and the choice she already made. So, again, even though it's not like the "psychologically-certified best treatment strategy", he can be there to support her, and she can work through it as long as he doesn't enable her, because her desire to be with him is a stronger force.

I'm not necessarily totally satisfied with the resolution of this plot point in the anime myself... but I don't think it's insurmountable either.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:11   Link #1424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Hm but creators really not spent a lot of time on Satsuki/Yuuki interactions... And there never was anything more then innocent flirt.
The way the Shinonome sisters competed over Yuuki struck me as more than just innocent flirting. I'm confident that if Yuuki had reciprocated just a bit more to either of them, he'd have been in a full-fledged romance with one or the other.

I'll admit that all the Satsuki scenes up to Yuuki's little escapade in the girl's dorms could be dismissed without too much trouble, but what came after that venturing into the girl's dorms went beyond just flirting, imo (and it was also these scenes that really raised my hopes for an Oojima/Satsuki end). It would have been very easy for the anime to go with an Oojima/Satsuki end after that. Honestly, a simple confession after the episodes at the girl's dorms would have been fine - The lead-up to it would have been more than satisfactory.


I think I get what Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate was trying to do with Chisato-Yuuki. They were trying for some heartwarming Key-esque narrative where a guy helps the girl he loves overcome a major personal background issue that plagues her to this day (quite similar to loads of romance routes in Key works in this regard). The problem is that this anime just made Chisato's "personal background issue" seem too severe given the amount of time they devoted to "solving" it. Either Chisato's trauma shouldn't have been played up so much, or they should have given more time to resolve it in a believable way.


Anyway, I'm writing this without having seen the final episode yet. Once I've watched that, I'll comment on it as well.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:16   Link #1425
Trajan
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Oh, I don't think that's what it's supposed to signify. Chisato stopping Mifuyu was "you don't need to go that far for my sake". Mifuyu was forcing herself to get over a major insecurity just so that Chisato would get the message, and Chisato stopped her to say "I get it".

By the same token, I don't think Chisato is necessarily fully "cured", but it's not like Yuuki is going to put up with any of it anymore. If she starts relapsing, he'll remind her of who he is and the choice she already made. So, again, even though it's not like the "psychologically-certified best treatment strategy", he can be there to support her, and she can work through it as long as he doesn't enable her, because her desire to be with him is a stronger force.
But as you note, Chisato stopped Mifuyu from overcoming her insecurity, which is hardly the behavior of someone who has just had their own breakthrough.

And you have a lot more faith in Yuuki than I do. Yuuki had zero problems with the way Chisato used him as a stand-in for her brother until after the accident when she took it too far. He enabled her, and he will probably continue to do so, unless she takes it too far once again. He is the last person Chisato should look to for support, and the least capable person of helping her get over her trauma.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:18   Link #1426
hyl
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

Oh, I don't think that's what it's supposed to signify. Chisato stopping Mifuyu was "you don't need to go that far for my sake". Mifuyu was forcing herself to get over a major insecurity just so that Chisato would get the message, and Chisato stopped her to say "I get it".
Spoiler for minor Miifuyu route spoilers, eventhough i am sure most of it was explained in the anime:



While i don't think that scar is just as severe as Chisato's mental problems, atleast she showed the courage to face her problems/trauma unlike Chisato. And Mifuyu was willingly to hurt herself for the sake of Chisato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
By the same token, I don't think Chisato is necessarily fully "cured", but it's not like Yuuki is going to put up with any of it anymore. If she starts relapsing, he'll remind her of who he is and the choice she already made. So, again, even though it's not like the "psychologically-certified best treatment strategy", he can be there to support her, and she can work through it as long as he doesn't enable her, because her desire to be with him is a stronger force.

I'm not necessarily totally satisfied with the resolution of this plot point in the anime myself... but I don't think it's insurmountable either.
I don't think she is completely cured as well
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:21   Link #1427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
But as you note, Chisato stopped Mifuyu from overcoming her insecurity, which is hardly the behavior of someone who has just had their own breakthrough.
To be fair, I don't think Mifuyu's scar was that big an issue to her (I mean, did you see the scar? It really is no big deal ), and I think Mifuyu just used her own issue to try to motivate Chisato into a certain direction.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:26   Link #1428
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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
But as you note, Chisato stopped Mifuyu from overcoming her insecurity, which is hardly the behavior of someone who has just had their own breakthrough.
Well, Mifuyu was forcing herself to do it for Chisato's sake, and Chisato realized that. The key emotions she had in that moment were gratefulness that Mifuyu would be willing to go that far for her sake, and shame that she wasn't strong enough to take the step on her own. In that moment, I think she thought the important thing was to convey her gratefulness. There'll be plenty of time to help Mifuyu take her step forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
And you have a lot more faith in Yuuki than I do. Yuuki had zero problems with the way Chisato used him as a stand-in for her brother until after the accident when she took it too far. He enabled her, and he will probably continue to do so, unless she takes it too far once again. He is the last person Chisato should look to for support, and the least capable person of helping her get over her trauma.
I can't really agree with that.

I doubt that Yuuki had really thought the chocolate thing through that much over the years. He realized it was something he was doing to help Chisato get over her brother's death, but that was about it. It's not like, at that age, we can necessarily expect him to realize the psychological impact he was having on her. Everything was fine until the topic of romance came up, and then he realized that this habit wasn't compatible with the relationship she wanted, and it became an issue. At that point, he began to realize his "enabling" role, but he still wants to help her because he loves her.

Basically, I think you're expecting a bit much perceptiveness and awareness of psychological trauma issues from high school kids.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:28   Link #1429
Zeris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Thanks to your comment i went back watching the ending in chisato's story.
Spoiler for game comparison:
Well, that certainly worked a lot better than what they did in the anime version. Which has the absurd chocolate ritual living on, but in a different form.

I just can't understand how them
Spoiler for spoiler:
is supposed to be romantic.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:30   Link #1430
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Originally Posted by Zeris View Post
I just can't understand how them
Spoiler for spoiler:
is supposed to be romantic.
I think the intention (whether it's portrayed clearly or not) is for her to show her brother that she has finally moved on, and found love and happiness now. The implication is that her brother would be happy to see her in love with Yuuki, and no longer holding back for his sake. (This was alluded to in a previous episode when they talked about how Daiki wouldn't want her to be unhappy.)
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:32   Link #1431
hyl
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The anime got the" sharing their first kiss through chocolate idea" from the game, except
Spoiler for spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think the intention (whether it's portrayed clearly or not) is for her to show her brother that she has finally moved on, and found love and happiness now. The implication is that her brother would be happy to see her in love with Yuuki, and no longer holding back for his sake. (This was alluded to in a previous episode when they talked about how Daiki wouldn't want her to be unhappy.)
I get the intention but i don't entirely agree with the idea of kissing in front of Daiki's grave though.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:39   Link #1432
Snuffle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeris View Post
Spoiler for Ending Spoiler:
I didn't watch the last episode yet but... That's sounds really romantic.

Well starting from about 2 or 3 eps ago, my expectations went downhill, therefore I wasn't anticipating anything satisfactory. I only decided to finish watching this series because I love the artwork so much and the ending was near.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:49   Link #1433
Zeris
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think the intention (whether it's portrayed clearly or not) is for her to show her brother that she has finally moved on, and found love and happiness now. The implication is that her brother would be happy to see her in love with Yuuki, and no longer holding back for his sake. (This was alluded to in a previous episode when they talked about how Daiki wouldn't want her to be unhappy.)
Oh, I understand the original intention. But in action, it just comes off as creepy.
To me, it feels like she's found a way to keep the chocolate ritual without upsetting Yuuki. I doubt she'll ever see chocolate as just food.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:56   Link #1434
Trajan
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
.Basically, I think you're expecting a bit much perceptiveness and awareness of psychological trauma issues from high school kids.
Not from the characters themselves, but from the writers. This comes across as a "happy ending", but its rather more of a "realistic middle" if you think about it. That can be fine, and even good, if done well, but I don't think that's what the writers were aiming for.
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Old 2012-09-27, 17:10   Link #1435
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Worst ending ever and i want my money back. No Hazuki ending is no good ending.

Last edited by Pen3; 2012-09-27 at 19:03.
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Old 2012-09-27, 17:12   Link #1436
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To me the main problem of the Chisato ending is that the supposed love has been told and not showed. I mean, except for the flashback (tbh even in the flashback the bride told them how thing were ), what we got until now (I haven't watched yet the last episode) was people who "hinted" that Oojima and Chisato were fated, probably I forgot some key scenes, but I don't remember any moments of even implied romance between them. Hell, even the whole revelation moment, the key point, was told from someone else, this is really terrible, objectively speaking. Where did they (the writers) leave all the emotions which any (sub-)story of this kind should convey to the viewer?

Their scheme (writers') was so well executed to the point that I actually misinterpreted the whole story, because to me every hint looked like a way to "force" Oojima:
Mifuyu denying her feelings to "force" him to Chisato, Hazuki denying her feelings to "force" him to Chisato, Chisato "forcing" him eating chocolate to "force" him to stick to her, the club "forced" him into the election, the Mouri "forced" him to not talk about the scholarship ... I'm surely leaving something out but anyways Obviously giving all that, thanks to my fanta-goggles Oojima rejecting Chisato could have had its straightforward meaning, namely rejecting her because he wasn't interested anymore. And so on.

Everything went in the right place, club forcing him, elections forcing him, love forcing him and chocolate forcing him...the message was crystal clear. Go Oojima go, emancipate yourself, choose the girl you love, the one who let you be yourself, choose the platform you believe in, the scholarship, not the club ... and for your sake and Chisato's, stop eating that f**** chocolate

In the end it was all in my mind, because Mifuyu was denying her feelings to "subtly hint us" him and Chisato strong bonds, Hazuki denying her feelings to "subtly hint us" him and Chisato strong bonds, Chisato "let" him eating chocolate to "subtly hint us" how him was deeply bonded to her, the club "elected democratically" him into the election, Mouri "advised" him to not talk about the scholarship and go on.

**Everything I wrote above has to be tongue-in-cheek-ly intended **

Now I'll read the spoilers about the last episode.
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Old 2012-09-27, 19:26   Link #1437
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I mean, here's one area where Mashiro-iro Symphony does come into play - It shows how ending an unified eroge adaptation on someone other than the main heroine is quite possible.
Basically I felt Koichoco had a rather good opportunity to do a non-main heroine route, and execute it without having the common route mostly revolve around the primary girl.

So all I can say is this series missed a good opportunity to try something revolutionary.

The direction I felt it took, while reasonable (only looking at it from a directing standpoint), was very fail-safe. As people said, it tried to do too much coverage. While the creative utilization of scenes was interesting, it did cause it to be convoluted or diluted since it wasn't all that obvious to the viewer.

If what was going to happen next was too obvious, the series is too predictable. If it was mostly hidden as it appeared, it wasn't very noticeable. Unfortunately it was pretty clear that even though evidence exists, if some important point was to be emphasized, it wasn't consistently given.

In other words, if you're going to do a Chisato route, put more Chisato evidence, not LESS (which they did). I can see showing Chisato less makes the contrast of "why do I feel we're apart" more convincing, but it also makes winning less convincing. There wasn't *enough* backstory.

I would have preferred they didn't go a Chisato end, because with the basic information we have, the series ended up predictably. The problem wasn't even Chisato, it's just the execution up to it.

I mean the series did fine with showing various girls' positive points. Showing teamwork. Implementing political drama and strategies. Quite frankly, the series did a lot of things right considering what limits it had to be constrained to.


Arya you forgot about Satsuki wanting to force a kiss on Yuuki. Maybe that wasn't included because it didn't happen.


Episode 12 has crappy replay value. It's sufficient as a one and done episode.


I'm basically horrendously disappointed. In short, the reasons are fairly similar to all of yours, since you guys basically covered everything. The merits don't outweigh the downsides, and I personally really wanted Koichoco to be the really rare case of "this is how you properly pick a non-main girl, and execute it properly". Chisato is also a very rare case of
Spoiler:


But no, they picked the fail-safe option. And didn't even execute the fail-safe option because Chisato unusually was allocated less than she normally is in the common route in the anime. She's supposed to be the daily every day character. You don't even need to play the game to know this. Heck I'd go as far as saying that Hazuki played a better "hey I'm with you to help everywhere" sort of role.

Then again dude, Yuuki never got back to Hazuki regarding her confession. It's not necessary obviously but still, hanging in the open much? Wow talk about declining other girls via non-response neutralization lol.

Also on choices on route specific scenes, seems like most of the ones safe for general usage were used, hence the ones that ended up being shown had the highest probability of being animated. On a random note I also knew Satsuki end wasn't going to happen because her VA mentioned that there was a "Satsuki centered episode" and I thought well, if she's the chosen girl, she wouldn't have a singular centered episode. So that's why while momentum favored her early on in the common route even leading into episode 8, it was pretty clear Yuuki would transition into something else in episode 9. And 9 - 12 ended up exactly what I didn't want, in nearly the exact fashion I didn't want.

Something tells me the anime, by showing Yuuki away from Chisato, also show Yuuki "drastically improving" hence his gradual being the favorite to win the election appears more gradual and earned. In this case, from just momentum alone it seems reasonable. You have Satsuki play a role that tells him to go for the challenge and to see merits in unpopular decisions. You have Isara to show that there's problems to resolve. And blah blah blah.

But yeah as people say, majority of events revolving around Yuuki were forced or not really under his control at all. It vaguely involves him, but it's not really about him at all.


Weird to have a super route ended up being a toned down Chisato route, as hyl said before. It suddenly seems worse than it should be. I can't even replay previous episodes now because of 9 - 12's 180 direction effect. It's lost all its luster. Granted, the directing was in a lose lose situation, but it also kind of put too much to chew on (DESPITE truncating almost ALL of the slice of life talk like a bunch of early on stuff like ... actual food club daily hangouts or even more morning conversations with Chisato and Mifuyu or even Chisato raiding Yuuki's room at night or even discovering Isara has a part time job which is illegal like every 2D fictional story).


Wait, is it just me or did Yuuki never figure out who the person behind the phone is? Even if he was told it was Oosawa I don't think he linked the name to the girl he met.

On a completely unrelated note:
Spoiler:


Yeah for trying to expand into too many routes, we realize that ... we hardly know much about various characters, including Chisato.


But I guess this does make me curious what is on the 13th episode. But if I think of Hoshikaka, then suddenly I don't want to bother as by the time it exists I no longer care about the series.
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Old 2012-09-27, 19:35   Link #1438
sapper
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that was a crappy ending i wanted a harem damnit what can noone share jesus and i didnt even like chisato i have some very mean words i can't say right now but damn there were others girls hell i liked the sensei better than chisato at least she played around with him and had some tig ol bitties, hell he couldve even went the sister route with both the sensei and her sister but noooo the retarded ass creators wanna make it a bullcrap "lets hook up the childhood friend and mc" really disappointed in this anime!
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Old 2012-09-27, 19:58   Link #1439
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Originally Posted by Zeris View Post
Well, that certainly worked a lot better than what they did in the anime version. Which has the absurd chocolate ritual living on, but in a different form.

I just can't understand how them
Spoiler for spoiler:
is supposed to be romantic.
That sounds so damn creepy...
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Old 2012-09-27, 20:50   Link #1440
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Originally Posted by Zeris View Post
I just can't understand how them
Spoiler for spoiler:
is supposed to be romantic.
Love sometimes would drive you crazy, man.....
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