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Old 2012-09-28, 09:56   Link #1461
Dorsai
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Noone claim here that romance part was created perfectly. There could be more ChisatoxYuuki sweet moments from game or their relationship could be showed less subtle, more like for mass audience...

But why Satsuki never was main heroine and why creators choose Chisato route (from begining) is completely different thing. Even if anime would be longer, her route would be more like in game and her problem would be resolved not magically, but more like in seinen type of anime they still will hate it and not understand it. Because its shippers war...

Spoiler for Chisato route in game:
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:01   Link #1462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
So the series ends with a girl suffering from untreated PTSD and her schizophrenic boyfriend engaging in erotic food play in front of her dead brother's grave.
Pretty disturbing how many people seem to be entirely cool with this...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Hahaha and just one week ago some of you still tried to persuade that its not about shipping wars... And being dissapointed ofc have nothing to do with Satsuki loosing her chance to win in episode 10... Just pathethic...
I see you completely missed my point.

Of course people are going to be displeased if their favorite girl loses out in a narrative like this. That's just normal. It's certainly not "pathetic".

But I was pointing to what makes the difference between displeased/disappointed and upset/outraged. The difference here is that Satsuki didn't lose to a good romance, but that she lost to a frankly very crappy romance (in the anime at least).

And the fact is that many of us saw how this would become a crappy romance if the anime went that way which is precisely why some of us (including myself) thought the anime would have enough good sense to go with Satsuki/Oojima instead.

So yes, my prediction was mistaken. It was mistaken because I put too much faith in this show's production staff.


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Triple_R hahaha tell me when Satsuki was main heroine in this anime?
I already did. Satsuki was the main heroine during the episodes where Oojima was sneaking around the girl's dorms. After the girl's dorms episodes, Satsuki frankly had more romantic development with Oojima than Chisato (or any other girl) did.

I'm not the only one making arguments like this either. Other members, such as hyl, pointed out how Chisato didn't receive all that much focus or development after the first two episodes.


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Just when? Creators give us hint EVEN in opening, before anime started that she will not be one...
Many people incorrectly guessed at who the male lead of Mashiro-iro Symphony would end up with based on that anime's OP. The OP is not necessarily a good judge of which girl will end up with the male lead.

Besides, this sort of symbolism should be secondary to what is portrayed in the actual anime content.

And in the actual anime content we have a guy who repeatedly rejected Chisato's advances, but all of a sudden that's all some cheap delusion on his part based on what some exposition device said in Episode 11.

Honestly, is it that hard to see why so many viewers found the Oojima/Chisato romance to be thoroughly cheap, forced, and unsatisfying?


True Tears didn't end with the romance that I wanted it to end with, but I'll admit that the romance it ended with made sense and was well-developed and had some nice moments. And that's a lot more than what I can say about the final romance in Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate.

So no, Dorsai, the criticisms some people are making here are not just about shipping wars.
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:03   Link #1463
hyl
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Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post

Spoiler for Chisato route in game:
Don't post things that are not really true.
Chisato's story was not a true route, but the first route you are forced to play (a socalled enforced playing order). True routes heroines are more like
Spoiler for spoilers:
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:06   Link #1464
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Man, they still shoehorned in a horrible romance pairing.

It was my favourite one too

Chisato needed to sort out her shit though. Satsuki made better sense. (plus, y'know, prez + vice prez getting to know each other and all wouldn't be that bad )
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:13   Link #1465
Dorsai
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Triple_R now main heroine magically changed into favourite girl? Not its not the same. Its not viewers job to decide who is main heroine...

No Satsuki was just main girl in her arc (it was just merely two episode). If we use your logic then every harem have 5,6+ main heroines, because they are in the limelight in their own arcs...

Read properly please... I never said that op lead us which girl should win in the end (it was just merely hint and still that hint could be wrong). I just said that op show us who is main heroine and that not means she will be winner in the end. There are a lot of examples where main heroine lose.


Satsuki never lose, because there was no competition in the first place. Mouri, council prez already answered meaning of Yuuki interaction with other girls (mostly Satsuki). He was never seriously looking for romance with new girl. It was just another wall to hide from his trouble relationship with Chisato.

You not understant what i was writed about symbolism. Dont try to find any where it not exist... Try to found it in places where creators intended them to be...


Whole your post showed clearly that its just shipper war for you and you still condratict it in the end. Just hilarious...


hyl if you have problem with it then dont write to me, but to TVtropes redaction. Im not one who played that game and review it. If you have problem with "true route" meaning you can argue with specialist who created it. You are free to write to any of them and insist to change their article about Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate...
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:31   Link #1466
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Anyway, I want to spend one post focusing strictly on the key part of this show that was actually good - That being the politics side of it!


What I find most interesting about the final episodes of Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate is actually the political story behind the story.

Consider this: Satsuki had a commanding lead after the preliminary vote stage. She was 15 or more percentage points up on Moheiji, and Oojima was a distant third.

But then, going into the final day of voting, Satsuki was now the distant third place candidate, with Oojima and Moheiji battling it out in a tight race for 1st place.

As any political junkie could tell, this begs an obvious question: What the hell happened to Satsuki's campaign?

Frankly, her campaign completely capsized, in a way that's nothing short of absolutely epic.


Now, there's no indication that any big scandal broke that hurt Satsuki. Satsuki herself didn't seem any worse for wear during the final speeches. So what led to her crushing descent from a comfortable 1st to 3rd place polling and eventual lost?

Well, the only likely "turning point" we have is the debate. There's nothing else that occurred between the preliminary vote and the final vote that could believably have caused such a massive sea-change in the electorate.

And political debates usually shift polling numbers very slightly, if at all. For a shift of this magnitude, Satsuki must have either completely crumpled in the debate (which seems very unlikely) or Oojima must have scored that fabled "knockout blow" on her that political junkies always dream of seeing in a political debate.


Here's my theory: Oojima convincingly put forward a case that the Financial Aid students could be helped without having to slash Student Club funding. He put forward this case in a passionate and forceful way, making Satsuki's policy seem needlessly harmful. Oojima's case may have involved "fuzzy math" but it nonetheless convinced the people who watched the debates, and that's what mattered.

So coming out of the debates, Satsuki's policy of slashing clubs seemed unwarranted, if not downright mean-spirited. Her support collapsed as such.

My guess is that Moheiji campaigned for the student clubs (like Oojima did) but without taking up the cause of the Financial Aid students (unlike both Oojima and Satsuki). Once Oojima made his convincing attack on Satsuki's policy, it actually benefited Mojeiji too, as it made his chosen policies seem more fiscally sound and reasonable. I also think that Mojeiji probably took in all of the "bully vote" (for lack of a better term perhaps ) because he was probably the only one to not speak up for the Financial Aid students.


It's a real shame we never got to see the debates, because I really can only conclude from how Oojima's support took off like a flying torpedo (and Satsuki's completely capsized) that Oojima dealt a true debate Ko to Satsuki, a rarity in political debates.

What puts an interesting wrinkle on this is Satsuki talking about having to fix all of the holes in Oojima's policies now that she's his VP. While Oojima's policies may indeed have some holes in them, I have to wonder if Satsuki isn't speaking from a place of bitterness (for both election reason as well as what must now be unrequited love for her).

That's certainly an interesting President/VP relationship now - One where the two were once close to a romance with each other, one where the two were once political rivals, and one where the VP likely holds some feelings of lingering bitterness towards the President that ultimately fiercely outstaged her.

And given how badly Satsuki's campaign floundered in spite of how she seems like a very smart, attractive, and able candidate, I'm inclined to think that her political weakness is that she's actually too much of a policy wonk. In other words, she's great with policy, but not so much with the more human dimension of politics. This is where Oojima (who clearly grasps that human dimension exceptionally well) and Satsuki compliment each other nicely... as long as lingering personal issues don't undermine them of course.


Anyway, I'd like to read what people have to say about this political thesis.
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:34   Link #1467
Dorsai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan
So the series ends with a girl suffering from untreated PTSD and her schizophrenic boyfriend engaging in erotic food play in front of her dead brother's grave.

Triple_R:
Pretty disturbing how many people seem to be entirely cool with this...
Do any of you even have one? Do any of you know how to feel to lost your brother? No? I know exactly how it is. If not then please stop that stupid posts where you try to show much you understand from this pain...

Quote:
What the hell happened to Satsuki's campaign?
Just two worlds- floating voters...

Bully voters? And how many that was, at least more then 50?;p Dont think so...
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Old 2012-09-28, 11:28   Link #1468
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Yuuki got the run around.
Chisato getting kidnapped was not good on any day, but it just had to be election day!
Yuina sure did a lot of wrongs to a lot of people.
I'm glad she was finally caught.
That girl was seriously disturbed to go that far...
Yuuki's speech was really good, not matter how bad he looked at the time.
He really does have the potential to be a great president if he does what he said.
Really nice ending scene ^^
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Old 2012-09-28, 11:35   Link #1469
Trajan
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Anyway, I want to spend one post focusing strictly on the key part of this show that was actually good - That being the politics side of it!

What I find most interesting about the final episodes of Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate is actually the political story behind the story . . . I'd like to read what people have to say about this political thesis.
There really isn't a lot to go on, since as you say the debates weren't shown. Explaining Yuuki's win by increased turnout among unlikely voters doesn't really work, since it seems like the students were supposed to vote after a mandatory (?) session in the auditorium. Also left out of the last episode is any explanation of how Yuuki or his campaign responded to the false article planted in the school's newspaper, which was having great effect on his polling numbers. It's possible that his position on financial aid students swayed people, but a scene that shows the "average student" being nice to a financial aid student would have been nice to highlight the change in attitude among the general student population.

In reality, I think the way he would win is if the details of the corruption of GA, Finance, and Public Safety were disclosed. I mean, now that Yuuki is president, what does he do about the student tracking, student spies, etc.?

I disagree about Satsuki. She had to have known that if Yuuki wasn't allowed to speak, he would have no chance at winning. She was the one who made his speech happen, and she did it either because she loved him or she really believed that an election should be fair. Sucks for her if it's the former, but she was really a class act throughout the series, so I don't think she'd be bitter. Also seems like the VP role is better suited to her, as a detail-oriented person.

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Do any of you even have one? Do any of you know how to feel to lost your brother? No? I know exactly how it is. If not then please stop that stupid posts where you try to show much you understand from this pain...
I'm certain that it feels terrible, especially seeing it happen right in front of you. But having a legitimate reason for a mental illness still means that one has a mental illness. Soldiers suffering from PTSD often have experienced terrible trauma, but they bring their illness home with them, and it leads to the destruction of their relationships with spouses, friends and family, because these PTSD-sufferers cannot maintain healthy relationships.

Although it's nice to think Chisato had a breakthrough based on Mifuyu's threat of "self-harm", I just don't buy it as any form of permanent cure. Making out with your boyfriend (who you previously used as a stand-in for your little brother) in front of your dead brother's grave--while you think his spirit is watching you--is not the behavior of a mentally correct person.
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Old 2012-09-28, 11:42   Link #1470
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And they freely chose trainwreck. I mean, I'd like to think that Koi's production staff are at least as perceptive at this sort of thing as we are, so I'd like to think that they also realized that a Satsuki end was the smoothest way to go after Episode 9. So why did they switch to Chisato in the last quarter, given it would cause a trainwreck on the "Love" side of things? "Just because"?
I think it was just because of the amount of plot threads they were trying to resolve. Yuuki's finally-realized feelings for Chisato were of closing the "love" plot thread opened in Episode 2, tied to the chocolate plot thread that was there all along (and especially developed in the episodes just previous), and through the kidnapping, resolves the plot thread with the Public Safety commission opened at the start of the first episode (the exposure of the criminal, etc.). So if you were to put all the plot threads of the anime on a giant wall and map them out, Chisato's events are more closely tied to the show's premise (shown in episodes 1 & 2) than Satsuki's were.

If I'm being brutally honest here, as much as I loved the way they portrayed Satsuki's developing closeness to Yuuki in the anime, this was mostly a red herring considering all the other plot threads. The problem is that the red herring was over-developed without developing Yuuki's feelings at the same time, and we don't even get the answer to why until we're told in Episode 11. I think it was valuable to develop Satsuki as a friend to Yuuki and a counterpoint to his campaign (because that ties to the resolution), but I think they went a bit too far in portraying her as a love interest. Just like how they over-built the trauma in Episode 10, they over-built the romantic implications in Episodes 7 & 8 and they couldn't quite deliver a resolution that lived up to the build-up because the plot had to keep moving forward.

I do think that they could have written a story that carried on from Episode 8 and centered around Satsuki, but to do that I think they would have had to de-emphasize certain plot points so they'd have room for Satsuki as well. The problem is that they opened so many plot threads at the start that closing them all didn't leave any real time for romantic development. Hence, Chisato is the one character whose romantic development doesn't need as much development because of their being childhood friends. They used the church scene flashback as a substitute for the romantic development that'd otherwise have to be shown and they used the time to focus on closing all the other plot threads instead. I'm not saying this is terribly satisfying from a viewer perspective (romance is a key reason I watch these shows!), but I think it was sacrificed so that the other plot threads didn't have to be abbreviated or dropped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, there's no indication that any big scandal broke that hurt Satsuki. Satsuki herself didn't seem any worse for wear during the final speeches. So what led to her crushing descent from a comfortable 1st to 3rd place polling and eventual lost?

Well, the only likely "turning point" we have is the debate. There's nothing else that occurred between the preliminary vote and the final vote that could believably have caused such a massive sea-change in the electorate.
I'll need to think more about this post, but for now I just want to mention that they were actually showing Yuuki's gradual ascent in the polls even before the debate. By the time the debate happened, he was already neck-and-neck, and that seemed to clinch it for him.

You have to remember President Mouri's explanation earlier in the show (right after the qualifying round) about the committed voterbase. Unlike Moheiji, where the majority of his votes all along were from people in his club, Satsuki had a lot of swing voters. If Yuuki was going to win, it was going to be by stealing votes from Satsuki, and this was probably helped by the fact that their headlining policies were opposed.


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Although it's nice to think Chisato had a breakthrough based on Mifuyu's threat of "self-harm", I just don't buy it as any form of permanent cure. Making out with your boyfriend (who you previously used as a stand-in for your little brother) in front of your dead brother's grave--while you think his spirit is watching you--is not the behavior of a mentally correct person.
I don't know, but I wonder if there's a cultural element here. I have seen a similar sort of story element used in a lot of bishoujo games, for example, so I suspect it doesn't have quite the same "creepiness" when considered in the Japanese cultural context. I'm not well-versed enough in the culture and religion to speculate on exactly why that is, but it may be an interesting question. I certainly don't think the writer in any way intended for this to be taken as something disturbing or a sign of continued trauma, but quite the opposite.
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Old 2012-09-28, 12:00   Link #1471
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Honestly, the only things about this series that disappointed me were the unresolved plot threads. Like, why did Oojima see weird things that no one else did (propeller on that one guy's head, the mask on the one candidate, etc), what was up with Michiru and the auras, etc.
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Old 2012-09-28, 12:12   Link #1472
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In truth, it is the writers and production team's fault for how the story ended up, and blame should be solely presented there. If they chose to tie up the story better, we might not be having this much rage right now.
I think they were actually successful with this adaptation, I mean, feels like that their intentions since the beginning was to actually profit with the new game and well... if I could I would be playing now to just see Satsuki's route (+ the extra Satsuki goodies that are packed with the game =X). If you think of this series as just an advertisement to spark some interst in the viewer for the game then they accomplished it (to me at least D=)
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Old 2012-09-28, 12:17   Link #1473
hyl
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Honestly, the only things about this series that disappointed me were the unresolved plot threads. Like, why did Oojima see weird things that no one else did (propeller on that one guy's head, the mask on the one candidate, etc), what was up with Michiru and the auras, etc.
I mentioned those before
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Yuuki being able to see some things were never explained in the game. Maybe it was used a few times as a comedy, but otherwise it was completely useless.
As for Michiru,
Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-28, 12:18   Link #1474
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Just watched the sub and I'm quite disappointed for this episode.. A lot of was wasted for the the kidnapping which took more than half of the episode (damn).. the speech was kinda boring... well the episode was boring nearly all boring...

The only thing that make me glad was the Kiss...

Well that sealed Chisato's route....

Glad Yuuki chose her route, no regrets. Worth watching... IMHO.
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Old 2012-09-28, 12:20   Link #1475
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Well, just watched this, and all the flaws I felt were pretty much summed up by many here, and shame too since this was such a strong series. Chisato's development was just not good, and one of the reasons I didn't care for her to win. Someone mentioned that her overall issue was lack of identity, and I completely agree. She went from Normal childhood friend, to very jealous love potential, to crazy as hell yandere, to instantly cured saint, to strong independent vocal support for Yuuki, and that just didn't make sense to me. They want you to feel happy for the pairing, but I just can't do that since I never got enough clarification on it in general. Its almost like they just expect you to KNOW their feelings and you better sink or swim.

The resolution to the corruption was just completely ruined. Such a strong start and very interesting scenario gets resolved with a bunch of chase down phone calls. The only good thing to come out of it was that the evil bitch was put down, but even then she left with a smirky ass attitude. Maybe I'm somewhat of a sadist, but I wanted to see her suffer, to burn, to completely break down and get metaphorically bitch-slapped.

I'll rank this a 6.5, but because I'm disappointed with how things played out, average out to a 6 instead of 7. I just don't think this has replay value for me TBH, probably was my first and last time dealing with this series.
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Old 2012-09-28, 13:02   Link #1476
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I don't know, but I wonder if there's a cultural element here. I have seen a similar sort of story element used in a lot of bishoujo games, for example, so I suspect it doesn't have quite the same "creepiness" when considered in the Japanese cultural context. I'm not well-versed enough in the culture and religion to speculate on exactly why that is, but it may be an interesting question. I certainly don't think the writer in any way intended for this to be taken as something disturbing or a sign of continued trauma, but quite the opposite.
Well, my view of the final scene is underpinned by my belief that Chisato is still suffering from a mental illness, so I view it through that lens. But if you assume that she is mentally healthy, then the scene would come across in a more playful manner.

Of course, my real problem with the show is that it treated Chisato's PTSD as something that could be "fixed" through simple will power. Chisato merely had to choose to treat Yuuki as Yuuki, and she would be better. The stigma of mental illness in Japan is well-documented, so it perhaps not surprising that a show that implied that Yuuki might not like a girl because of a physical scar would gloss over the mental scars of Chisato.
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Old 2012-09-28, 13:48   Link #1477
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Well, my view of the final scene is underpinned by my belief that Chisato is still suffering from a mental illness, so I view it through that lens. But if you assume that she is mentally healthy, then the scene would come across in a more playful manner.
Well, I don't think it's supposed to be "playful" either. I don't think Chisato is either perfectly healthy or perfectly ill. I think she is recovering, and I think the purpose of that scene is intended to portray one step in that recovery process: that she is acknowledging Daiki's death and her love for Yuuki in the same breath -- that they're separate people. Perhaps it was too much to try to merge so much symbolism in one scene, but I at least feel like I understand what they were trying to do.

As I've said before, the main issue is that I think they over-dramatized the trauma to make for "better TV". In truth, I think a lot of people work through psychological trauma and issues without getting proper help or counselling, and it's not as if there's only one road to recovery. And besides, I have long-since accepted the general construct of these narratives that the characters involved basically solve their own problems -- most of the adults are either dead or absent. I know that doesn't lend itself to the "realism" of the overall story, but it's what allows the drama to play out the way it does. Most of the rest of the elements in the plot were exaggerated as well, so I don't find this particular point to be as big of a sore spot as you do, I guess.
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Old 2012-09-28, 14:38   Link #1478
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Here's my theory: Oojima convincingly put forward a case that the Financial Aid students could be helped without having to slash Student Club funding. He put forward this case in a passionate and forceful way, making Satsuki's policy seem needlessly harmful. Oojima's case may have involved "fuzzy math" but it nonetheless convinced the people who watched the debates, and that's what mattered.

So coming out of the debates, Satsuki's policy of slashing clubs seemed unwarranted, if not downright mean-spirited. Her support collapsed as such.

My guess is that Moheiji campaigned for the student clubs (like Oojima did) but without taking up the cause of the Financial Aid students (unlike both Oojima and Satsuki). Once Oojima made his convincing attack on Satsuki's policy, it actually benefited Mojeiji too, as it made his chosen policies seem more fiscally sound and reasonable. I also think that Mojeiji probably took in all of the "bully vote" (for lack of a better term perhaps ) because he was probably the only one to not speak up for the Financial Aid students.

[...]

Anyway, I'd like to read what people have to say about this political thesis.
Reading your post surely didn't help my determination in watching the last episode. Basically the amount of your suppositions make me thinks that this episode was on the same level of the previous one only on the politics instead of the love line. So now I probably won't.

Anyways, I'm obliged to point you out that the assumption of your theory contradicts one of the most important in-world laws of the show. Mouri said to Oojima to not talk about his intentions to help the Financial Aid students, so he didn't talk about it in the debate.
If I had to guess, but I lost any interest in doing it, he stayed quiet letting the other two contending debating over their respective platforms and near the end he said some "supposed" cool lines that made him win the elections. Specifically Mojeiji surely based his strategy attacking Shinonome on the Financial Aid students, so Oojima, unable to go against the first rule of Koichoco, had to stay silent (I can't think him attacking Shinonome too ).
But the simple truth is that he wins thanks to the law I was speaking of. Muori explained how Oojima wcould have win the election, so, as for his hidden love, that was enough to roundly portray the thing.

Sorry guys, but this concept that the writers were able to think that explaining things instead of showing them could have been a good idea still bugs me. And not for the concept per se, but because they demonstrated before to be able to do things better than your average anime.

edit: Forgot to say somethng about the ending. It was something related to comparing this one to Suzuka ending. But since I have to watch it yet better I wait doing it.
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Old 2012-09-28, 15:04   Link #1479
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I'm just saying that this is one of the most romantic endings I have seen yet in 2011-2012. Well done!
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Old 2012-09-28, 15:19   Link #1480
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Getting over psychological trauma takes baby steps. Perhaps Chisato hasn't fully gotten over it by the end, but she at least has shown improvement, by acknowledging Daiku's death, and the existence of the real Yuuki. If this is indeed the case, Yuuki even gets more brownie points for sticking it through with her, instead of going the easy way route of "abandoning" her because she's "not well". After all, the ending message is morally well intended.

Overall, a very interesting series. I had a good laugh our of YumexYuuki. It gives interesting insight into high school election. One of the better kisses since Toradora's. 8/10.
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