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Old 2012-05-10, 11:16   Link #1141
Arturia Polaris
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Hm, was Lucky Star really that saccharine? I know that K-On could be pretty diabetes-inducingly sentimental sometimes, but Lucky Star seems pretty reserved far as the whole friendship and togetherness angles go.

Good post, though, and I'm glad you're liking the series more.



Y'know, I've always wondered about this phrase. If it's not here or there, then where is it? Is it nowhere? wtf mate

Maybe Orike and Chitanda can team up to solve this mystery
It is in the middle of the spectrum of what could be awful and what is brilliant.

He means that the anime hasn't taken a turn for the worse or for the great, it's still pretty much in the balance.

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Old 2012-05-10, 11:20   Link #1142
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That was one of the main overall points of the message, but it doesn't have much to do with the particular sentence I quoted. :P
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Old 2012-05-10, 11:27   Link #1143
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Originally Posted by Niker117 View Post
I think people are way too used to rushed series where you get "OMG THE ALIENZ ARE LAZORIN. HERE'S THE MC. NOW SHOOT THE PROTON TORPEDOES. HAPPY ENDING"

Niker
I think there's a bad tendency on both sides for people to exaggerate . I'm sure there are legitimate complaints about the series, just as we have legitimate reasons to like the series and are not just drones that like things because KyoAni makes them.
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Old 2012-05-10, 12:57   Link #1144
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Y'know, I've always wondered about this phrase. If it's not here or there, then where is it? Is it nowhere? wtf mate
It's a saying that means "it doesn't really make any difference either way to the topic at hand". So basically yes: it is "nowhere". I only used that expression to say: don't let this distract from the main point above.

And to be clear, my original statement wasn't intended to convey my own opinion of the show, but just to summarize the various opinions I've seen expressed in the thread. I am so tired of threads being turned into battlegrounds between "fanboys" vs. "haters" -- reality is much more nuanced.
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Old 2012-05-10, 13:06   Link #1145
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I finally got around to watching Episode 3 of this (it was put off until now mainly due to comp issues).

I have to say, this anime is gradually getting better, on a week by week basis. Episode 3 is easily the one that I found the most compelling and interesting of the first three.


Although I don't dislike Satoshi, I think having him off-camera most of the episode helped. Satoshi tends to lighten (and verbally dominate) any scene he's in, so not having him in some of the more intense scenes of this episode was probably to the benefit of those scenes.

And I think this touches on one of the real strengths of this anime - The way it handles its core protagonist cast. Now that the introductions are out of the way, I feel like each character is being used very shrewdly and smartly.

I also like how Hyouka juggles and ties together new overarching plots (the issue that Eru raised about her Uncle in this episode) with continuing subplots (finding the Classics Club Anthology books). Things are finally starting to really move in the plot itself in this show, making it all seem a bit more engaging and eventful.

I'm starting to perceive more and more good writing quality in this show. This show is a slow-burner, to be sure, but it's doing a good job of rationing out new revelations at a pace that doesn't undermine the generally relaxed atmosphere, but also at the same time gives the plot some sense of slowly building momentum.


The characters - Eru in particular - are also starting to round into shape a bit.

Eru, for me, is sometimes comical in her zealous desire to find out everything about every little mystery, but she also manages to come across well in more serious moments. She's a very likable character.


Hyouka has become a very charming show to me. I'm definitely looking forward to Episode 4.


Edit: If I had to sum up the strengths of Hyouka in one word, it would be this one: Smooth.
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Old 2012-05-10, 16:30   Link #1146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Man, what's with all the hate?
Haven't seen any lately in this thread, but if you're referring to me, then let's just say I speak much less kindly of series I actually hate. You could contrast what I wrote about episode 1 for example. I watched episode 2 with the expectation that I'd like it more, and well... surprise!

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Originally Posted by Niker117 View Post
I think people are way too used to rushed series where you get "OMG THE ALIENZ ARE LAZORIN. HERE'S THE MC. NOW SHOOT THE PROTON TORPEDOES. HAPPY ENDING"

Niker
Well, two of the hot series this season are Space Brothers and Sakamachi no Apollon and IMO do the relaxed daily life thing with slow pacing a lot better. Though they are only 1 cour, they are not exactly action packed or anything.


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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Hm, was Lucky Star really that saccharine? I know that K-On could be pretty diabetes-inducingly sentimental sometimes, but Lucky Star seems pretty reserved far as the whole friendship and togetherness angles go.
It was more deadpan to me; maybe like an anime Seinfeld.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think it's basically already been discussed a number of times in this thread that this show is airing late in the season so has the disadvantage of needing to catch people's attention at a time when people have already committed to other shows they like. Plus, the pacing of this two-cour show is not common in anime these days, where indeed even many two-cour shows are split into one-cour blocks. And also, whenever a show is given top-class animation, people tend to increase their expectations for other aspects of the show; the pedigree of the studio also helps in this regard.

So as Bonta Kun said, I don't think there's any "hate", but some people are more ambivalent than they would like to be. People may feel compelled to stick around to see what's coming around the corner even though they don't have overwhelmingly positive feelings about what's happened so far.

(There's an odd sort of trend where a well-animated show with a mediocre story attracts a lot more criticism than a poorly-animated show with a poor story (even though the latter ostensibly has more to criticize). I guess people adjust their expectations for the story based on their perception of the production values, sort of as if a show's story should be "worth" the amount spent on the production. The insinuation here is possibly that the money could have been spent on a "better cause" -- i.e. a show the critic would have enjoyed. Anyway, it's neither here nor there, but I find it interesting to watch.)
Well, a show with more appealing visuals just gives us more reason to watch it. So there's always the hope that maybe they're just starting out slow and have more stuff of value afterwards. We can't even predict the weather accurately, so who's to say random show X can't suddenly play some hand and suddenly get everyone's attention? Said shows tend to get more hype, because at the very least there's a group of us that has things outside the show to gain such as fanart. In this case, there's a fairly big name attached to this show, so the burden is unusually high.

In any case, I end up never finishing a third of the shows I start, but usually there was something to gain from watching them.

As for now, I have acknowledged good things about the show, because I feel like even if I don't appreciate them, at least I can explain the appeal of the show to other people. And surely it may come around some day full circle. And I'm willing to watch another episode, so it must be something, hopefully. For one, I will not complain about the lack of mystery.
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Old 2012-05-10, 18:08   Link #1147
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Episode 3 was a fine episode again, looks like there was no hallucination this week but seems like its moving into a much bigger mystery.

Wish I watched this before marathoning Sherlock Holmes TV series... can't stop thinking words popping around characters as I watched.

Can't believe I skipped the ED song last week, the visual was brilliant stuff.
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Old 2012-05-10, 19:48   Link #1148
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For those who want to see the episode included with volume 3 of the manga, I have news. Episode 11.5, the pool episode, will be streamed through ustream on 7/7 at midnight.
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Old 2012-05-10, 19:57   Link #1149
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Old 2012-05-10, 20:03   Link #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
And also, whenever a show is given top-class animation, people tend to increase their expectations for other aspects of the show; the pedigree of the studio also helps in this regard.

So as Bonta Kun said, I don't think there's any "hate", but some people are more ambivalent than they would like to be. People may feel compelled to stick around to see what's coming around the corner even though they don't have overwhelmingly positive feelings about what's happened so far.

(There's an odd sort of trend where a well-animated show with a mediocre story attracts a lot more criticism than a poorly-animated show with a poor story (even though the latter ostensibly has more to criticize). I guess people adjust their expectations for the story based on their perception of the production values, sort of as if a show's story should be "worth" the amount spent on the production. The insinuation here is possibly that the money could have been spent on a "better cause" -- i.e. a show the critic would have enjoyed. Anyway, it's neither here nor there, but I find it interesting to watch.)
I strongly agree with all of this.

I do think there's a sense that top-notch animation should be reserved for top quality work. So in that sense top-notch animation can sort of raise viewer expectation levels, being actually a bit of a mixed blessing when it comes to critical reception.

I don't get the impression that many people are downright hating on Hyouka. I just think, like you do, that some viewers have ambivalence towards it. And yeah, a lot of it is getting used (or readjusted) to that slow-burn approach you see with many two cour "school life" shows like Hyouka.


With that in mind, Hyouka is reminding me a little bit of Clannad's two cour first season (I'll admit that the seiyus involved are a big reason why ). I remember how it took me awhile to get into Clannad, as it started off a bit lethargic, imo. Clannad had some charm even early on, but it was a show that called for viewer patience.

Ultimately, Clannad well-rewarded the patience I showed in it, as After Story remains one of my favorite anime shows of all-time. I get a feeling that Hyouka will also reward patience in that Clannad-esque way. Now Hyouka might not resonate with me quite as much as Clannad: After Story did, but I do get the impression it'll end up being a worthwhile watch.
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Old 2012-05-10, 20:46   Link #1151
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I strongly agree with all of this.

I do think there's a sense that top-notch animation should be reserved for top quality work. So in that sense top-notch animation can sort of raise viewer expectation levels, being actually a bit of a mixed blessing when it comes to critical reception.

I don't get the impression that many people are downright hating on Hyouka. I just think, like you do, that some viewers have ambivalence towards it. And yeah, a lot of it is getting used (or readjusted) to that slow-burn approach you see with many two cour "school life" shows like Hyouka.


With that in mind, Hyouka is reminding me a little bit of Clannad's two cour first season (I'll admit that the seiyus involved are a big reason why ). I remember how it took me awhile to get into Clannad, as it started off a bit lethargic, imo. Clannad had some charm even early on, but it was a show that called for viewer patience.

Ultimately, Clannad well-rewarded the patience I showed in it, as After Story remains one of my favorite anime shows of all-time. I get a feeling that Hyouka will also reward patience in that Clannad-esque way. Now Hyouka might not resonate with me quite as much as Clannad: After Story did, but I do get the impression it'll end up being a worthwhile watch.
I agree with that too.


There is nothing inherently wrong with Hyouka. The show is solid. But it is not the sensory overload that K-ON is. It's a throwback to the older days of KyoAni. The pacing is like Air, Kanon, or Clannad. The problem is that K-ON went main stream and there are a lot of new people that came in with k-on and they don't appreciate this different style.

I'm loving the show so very much. It's actually pretty genius in terms of an adaptation. It doesn't fall into ruts like the novel. It also strings people along with a nice cliffhanger every time.

It's just too bad that so many people are incapable of appreciating things that lie outside of their comfort zone.
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Old 2012-05-10, 21:05   Link #1152
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It's just too bad that so many people are incapable of appreciating things that lie outside of their comfort zone.
I wouldn't go quite so far yet. I've certainly seen shows where people didn't really seem willing to give it a chance at first, but then upon hearing about what transpired later in the show went back and gave it a second look and then were able to appreciate what they couldn't appreciate at first, knowing where it's ultimately leading. Basically, sometimes it just takes a little bit of an extra push to get people to give something a chance in their already-crowded schedules. And, anecdotally, I would say that a lot of people actually have given this show a chance -- but they may take more to be convinced. I wouldn't necessarily say people are being close-minded just because they haven't get yet gotten into the "groove" of this show's pacing, presentation, and storytelling style. Give it time.
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Old 2012-05-10, 21:23   Link #1153
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Well, I did toss Clannad and Kanon out the window on my first try. It's sorta funny, since Air left the best first impression but I like the former two better now. And Clannad was the one I felt that was going the slowest and benefited from that. Just saying. :S Kanon went too fast and Air even more so, so I don't think it's an issue of speed all the time.

I can't guarantee it'll happen here, but usually if I haven't dropped a show, I haven't given up yet.

But another possibility remains is my experience with Monogatari. That was a show I absolutely didn't like at all til halfway through, and while I'm not the biggest fan of the series, it's been a better experience. Though in that case, it had some unique hooks that encouraged me to explore down the tunnel, so to say.
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Old 2012-05-10, 21:36   Link #1154
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That scene. I forgot to mention how much I like that one. The room getting messier is obvious, but they also change how Houtarou was sitting on the chair as he get more frustrated. Started with the usual, then cross-legged, then seiza. That's exactly what happens to me when I sit down and solving problem. The sitting position is getting more "weird" as the time with no progress goes by. Well, sometimes not seiza, but kneeling or the like.
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Houtarou has one heck of an imagination. I didn't realise the clock pendulum changed into a heart shape during his expectant period until I rewatched it.

Heh.
I also caught that only on the rewatch

I think that's where, at this time, Hyouka's strengths lies right now, with how well it had been presenting Houtarou's daydreams . It's certainly well animated, but the attention to details and the amount of thought going into making sure we get to see the world through his eyes adds a lot more the story.
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Although I don't dislike Satoshi, I think having him off-camera most of the episode helped. Satoshi tends to lighten (and verbally dominate) any scene he's in, so not having him in some of the more intense scenes of this episode was probably to the benefit of those scenes.
So when things start to actually move along, send away the clown?

Poor Satoshi. (I don't really think he is that huge of a presence as he is right now, IMO. In fact, we had him waltz into the final scene of the episode (which I think it was arguably the second most intense one) and he quickly faded away to the background after his colourful entry. If anything, he's nothing more than harmless comic relief, so I don't think he that much of a threat)

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Edit: If I had to sum up the strengths of Hyouka in one word, it would be this one: Smooth.
I would say it would be Imaginative or really just Houtarou, but hey I'm sure spending enough time with Eru might motivate him to become smooth eventually
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Old 2012-05-10, 21:41   Link #1155
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It's just too bad that so many people are incapable of appreciating things that lie outside of their comfort zone.
Quite frankly I think it's pretty boring on almost every level except visual. The banter isn't that impressive and there isn't much of it, music is acceptable, characters themselves aren't that interesting, the mysteries are a joke and the universe in of itself doesn't have any draw.
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Old 2012-05-10, 21:46   Link #1156
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Quite frankly I think it's pretty boring on almost every level except visual. The banter isn't that impressive and there isn't much of it, music is acceptable, characters themselves aren't that interesting, the mysteries are a joke and the universe in of itself doesn't have any draw.
I wouldn't go as far to call it boring on every level, but yeah, I think that the visuals are what's carrying the show so far. It's certainly the thing that keeps bringing me back to it at least, since it adds more to the show than the dialogue or puzzle solving do.
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Old 2012-05-10, 21:57   Link #1157
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I agree with that too.


There is nothing inherently wrong with Hyouka. The show is solid. But it is not the sensory overload that K-ON is. It's a throwback to the older days of KyoAni. The pacing is like Air, Kanon, or Clannad. The problem is that K-ON went main stream and there are a lot of new people that came in with k-on and they don't appreciate this different style.

I'm loving the show so very much. It's actually pretty genius in terms of an adaptation. It doesn't fall into ruts like the novel. It also strings people along with a nice cliffhanger every time.

It's just too bad that so many people are incapable of appreciating things that lie outside of their comfort zone.
The notion that anything can be "inherently wrong" is mistaken. It's all an interaction between taste and expectation, which varies among people. To some people, the slow pacing and the relatively flat characters are solid negatives that pull the show down.

Mind you, I enjoy this show to bits, but I can certainly understand those who would feel otherwise. Even if we say that it's all in preparation for something better, we really can't say that for sure as of yet.
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Old 2012-05-10, 22:49   Link #1158
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It's just too bad that so many people are incapable of appreciating things that lie outside of their comfort zone.
Oh please.

I understand what you're trying to say. There is nothing outright offensive about Hyouka, but lets not make generalizations like this. I myself find this show to be dreadfully boring, but this has nothing to do with it being outside my supposed comfort zone. I myself watch almost any genre there is, and appreciate all kinds of different works. Hyouka isn't losing points with me just because it merely focuses on the more mundane aspects of life or because it has a relaxed and lethargic pacing. Its problems for me stem from its lack of defining characteristics, things that make draw me to it specifically because it provides something that I'm unlikely to get elsewhere.

I still think the main issue here is the characters because that's where most of its focus is at so far (Lets face it the mysteries are pretty trivial and mind numbing). They lack scene presence and I find myself terribly bored by their very flat characterization. On a personal level I cannot really connect to them in any way meaningful. Hey I'm lazy and don't like wasting energy myself, but if that is all I have in common with the main character then shucks, there's nothing to be found there. But if I can't relate to him then he has to be at least entertaining for me, but to me he seems like a watered out, lamer version of Kyon from Haruhi whose dialogue was always much more amusing and funny to me.

So no, Hyouka isn't by far an offensive show (Though the studio's actions themselves I do find offensive), but I personally find it very uninteresting. All that's keeping me around at the moment are some pretty visuals.
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Old 2012-05-10, 22:58   Link #1159
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I think part of the issue is a matter of faith that the show will get better and eventually go somewhere interesting. The amount of faith one has of course depends wildly on their own experiences and views. Some people have all the faith in the world in Kyoto Animation adaptations and it doesn't take much if anything to get them hooked. Based on my personal experiences with Kyoani shows and how most have turned out of late I don't really share the same faith as some.

Furthermore, considering there's literally nothing I dislike to see more in a show than a perceived wastage of time and a feeling that it's going nowhere I chose to direct my interests elsewhere for the season pretty quickly after watching Hyou-Ka opener.

Essentially some people ask for a little bit more out of the shows they are watching then just pretty visuals. Some people can get by on this, others such as myself need to be able to relate to the characters and the circumstances they are placed in order to have a reason to continue watching or to direct praise towards a show. It is regrettable that in my opinion the show made no great stride to achieve this humble expectation in it's early going.

Also I'll say right now that in my case it's not a matter of there not being explosions or action and lots of grit, in fact I actually greatly enjoy a lot of dialogue heavy shows like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, FLAG, Gasaraki and Banner of the Stars among others, but those shows also established an interest in their characters and their circumstances as early as the opening episodes and continued to develop those characters and their circumstances episode by episode. Hyou-Ka on the other hand really didn't offer up much about it's characters or really much to say about them in the first episode other than Eru has "Dem Eyes" and Houtaro is lazy, and that in my opinion just shouldn't happen if a show expects to hook more than the usual crowd so to speak. That is the key difference between Hyou-Ka and some of the other dialogue driven shows I've mentioned.
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Old 2012-05-10, 23:02   Link #1160
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I think many of you are missing a major draw: the writing. I don't know how well it survives translation, but I simply love the particular speech mannerisms of each character. Not only is the script great, but the quality of the voice work really brings the show to life. If I could resist looking at the gorgeous animation, I could probably get by just listening to the characters talk.

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Hyou-Ka on the other hand really didn't offer up much about it's characters or really much to say about them in the first episode other than Eru has "Dem Eyes" and Houtaro is lazy, and that in my opinion just shouldn't happen if a show expects to hook more than the usual crowd so to speak. That is the key difference between Hyou-Ka and some of the other dialogue driven shows I've mentioned.
I think the first episode established way more about Houtaro than his laziness. In fact, he only believes he is lazy. What kind of guy would go out of his way to fabricate a mystery and actively play it out just to avoid going to the clubroom? He merely substituted one kind of trouble for another. Even Satoshi couldn't completely comprehend his actions. This to me establishes Houtarou's uniqueness among other smart-but-lazy male protagonists.
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