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Old 2012-09-02, 23:23   Link #761
Tenchi Ryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
Really now, the arguments against Phil are pretty weak. What is this about "harm" from Phil vs "teasing" from Akatsuki? We don't know how both their actions affect the individuals on the receiving end.
Phil straight up admitted he'd come back and kill innocent people if Miu would commit suicide. I have a very hard time seeing Akatsuki doing something like that. And so far, we haven't been provided with back history hinting to this, so dealing with hypothetically situations of what Akatsuki could have done doesn't really make a strong argument.

And personally, I called him a jerkass, nobody knows for certain who's good or evil. All that's important is that he is an antagonist to the story.
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Old 2012-09-02, 23:38   Link #762
AzureWrath
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That last action is the only one that is hard to defend. I personally don't think he was going to do it. Mental breakdown as was stated. That combined with the what he said before - something along the lines of him only killing demons.

Though if we say he was going to go down that road, I'll have to say that almost all the men in this story aren't great moral figures. I've not read the source material for this, but if you read the first chapter of the (broken English) manga, you will get a different view of how Akatsuki does things with the maids he fought. This is probably a straw man argument, but it's the best I can offer atm. The author does have to tell us who we should be supporting right?

-6 Tricks Movies Use to Make Sure You Root for the Right Guy

Read more: 6 Tricks Movies Use to Make Sure You Root for the Right Guy | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_19183...#ixzz25NWEh5qQ
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Old 2012-09-02, 23:57   Link #763
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Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
That last action is the only one that is hard to defend. I personally don't think he was going to do it. Mental breakdown as was stated. That combined with the what he said before - something along the lines of him only killing demons.

Though if we say he was going to go down that road, I'll have to say that almost all the men in this story aren't great moral figures. I've not read the source material for this, but if you read the first chapter of the (broken English) manga, you will get a different view of how Akatsuki does things with the maids he fought. This is probably a straw man argument, but it's the best I can offer atm. The author does have to tell us who we should be supporting right?

-6 Tricks Movies Use to Make Sure You Root for the Right Guy

Read more: 6 Tricks Movies Use to Make Sure You Root for the Right Guy | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_19183...#ixzz25NWEh5qQ
The main point here is that the episode has clearly shown that Phil is far more powerful and combat capable then Myuu currently is. At the end Myuu was completely helpless. Preparing to rape her, or even letting her believe he was preparing to rape her was completely unneeded to accomplish his goal as he is clearly able to disable her at any point of his choosing.

Using rape to break her could only be explained as just to get his jollies from making her despair from her helplessness when a simple blow to the head to render her unconscious would take care of things much more simply.

Regardless if he ever intended to do the deed or not he's clearly being a prick.

If you actually did look at the first chapter from the english manga, the maids were depicted as being rather infatuated with him and did not want him to leave. The head maid of that attack squad was actually using the orders from Listy to "stop the hero from leaving" as a means to allow her and the other maids to "Say goodbye to him" as they clearly knew they couldn't stop him from leaving.

So Akatsuki's manhandling of the maids was less sexual harassment and more of a playful final goodbye of affection that the maids wanted since they couldn't persuade him to stay.
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Old 2012-09-03, 00:09   Link #764
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
That last action is the only one that is hard to defend. I personally don't think he was going to do it. Mental breakdown as was stated. That combined with the what he said before - something along the lines of him only killing demons.

Though if we say he was going to go down that road, I'll have to say that almost all the men in this story aren't great moral figures. I've not read the source material for this, but if you read the first chapter of the (broken English) manga, you will get a different view of how Akatsuki does things with the maids he fought. This is probably a straw man argument, but it's the best I can offer atm. The author does have to tell us who we should be supporting right?
I'm not really sure where you're coming from. Leaving aside the comparison to Akatsuki because frankly, that's got nothing to do with whether Phil rates as a jerk/evil/villain or not because it's not really subjective.

Miu at that point was completely at his mercy. She couldn't even bite her own tongue to kill herself because he had threatened to kill her friends. I have no idea why he would even need to 'pretend' to rape her to break her. Was she even going to do anything at that point? No. And it's an assumption that he was only 'pretending' to rape her.

Your second argument is 'well, no one else in this manga is moral either!'. Dude, if the manga was filled with rapists or serial killers, it wouldn't make Phil ANY NICER of a person -_-
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Old 2012-09-03, 05:25   Link #765
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just humiliated them on several occasion and in public
Pranksterism is evil these days?
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Old 2012-09-03, 13:41   Link #766
Tenchi Ryu
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Even with the panty stealing, I can't think of an incident where Akatsuki just did it to get some kicks, or went out his way. Every time its happened, its been a response to someone challenging him in some kind of way, like the maids challenging him when he was leaving and the beach contest where girls where trying to strip him.

I see it more as a humorous "I'll get you before you get me" kind of thing.
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Old 2012-09-03, 15:21   Link #767
AzureWrath
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The second point does matter. It defines the morality of the world. This is a world where it was ok to green light a contest where the winning condition was thief of swim suit. This is a world where Chikage goes around raping women in broad day light. This is a world that obviously has different morals than our own.

Add that to the fact that Myuu is the daughter of the most powerful being and the nature of shouen power ups, I think Phil was alright to break her down as much as he could. To him, who knows how powerful she really is?

Really, that statement is the only thing that could evoke hatred. It really seemed to me that the statement was more directed at breaking her down than rape considering the context of how he stated it and his seeming conviction toward killing demons.
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Old 2012-09-03, 17:01   Link #768
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Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
This is a world where Chikage goes around raping women in broad day light.
....Wat? If this is about her fondling Myuu's breasts, you really call that rape?
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Old 2012-09-03, 17:24   Link #769
Tenchi Ryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
The second point does matter. It defines the morality of the world. This is a world where it was ok to green light a contest where the winning condition was thief of swim suit. This is a world where Chikage goes around raping women in broad day light. This is a world that obviously has different morals than our own.
Not really, I've been to multiple beach parties where stuff like this happens....mostly college parties. And like Dengar said, the word RAPE is going to far for just breast fondling.
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Old 2012-09-03, 17:50   Link #770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
The second point does matter. It defines the morality of the world. This is a world where it was ok to green light a contest where the winning condition was thief of swim suit. This is a world where Chikage goes around raping women in broad day light. This is a world that obviously has different morals than our own.

Add that to the fact that Myuu is the daughter of the most powerful being and the nature of shouen power ups, I think Phil was alright to break her down as much as he could. To him, who knows how powerful she really is?

Really, that statement is the only thing that could evoke hatred. It really seemed to me that the statement was more directed at breaking her down than rape considering the context of how he stated it and his seeming conviction toward killing demons.
I really have no clue where you are coming from with this argument. it is obvious you don't like the main character, and you are looking for anyway possible to cut him down, even if it means raising up a villain.
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Old 2012-09-03, 17:56   Link #771
AzureWrath
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
Not really, I've been to multiple beach parties where stuff like this happens....mostly college parties. And like Dengar said, the word RAPE is going to far for just breast fondling.
Oh how quickly we forget the unnamed characters. And how ironic it is to say rape is too far when it was just breast fondling compared to words.
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:14   Link #772
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Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
Oh how quickly we forget the unnamed characters. And how ironic it is to say rape is too far when it was just breast fondling compared to words.
What unnamed characters? You mean that girl she was having a consensual "encounter" with at the gym? And what do you mean words? And even if I go blind for a second and say he wasn't really going to do it, do you have any idea what it feels like to be at the complete mercy of someone and having someone threaten to violate you even more?
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:19   Link #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
The second point does matter. It defines the morality of the world. This is a world where it was ok to green light a contest where the winning condition was thief of swim suit. This is a world where Chikage goes around raping women in broad day light. This is a world that obviously has different morals than our own.

Add that to the fact that Myuu is the daughter of the most powerful being and the nature of shouen power ups, I think Phil was alright to break her down as much as he could. To him, who knows how powerful she really is?

Really, that statement is the only thing that could evoke hatred. It really seemed to me that the statement was more directed at breaking her down than rape considering the context of how he stated it and his seeming conviction toward killing demons.
You're still trying to defend this? I'll give you an A for stubbornness if nothing else.
There is nothing that justifies rape. Rape is a war crime for gods sake! It's possible it's not in the other world but this world, were our boy Phil is apparently from, it is.

Your argument about the morals of others is completely irrelevant. I can't justify stealing if I saw some other random person do it. The only one who's morals are on trial here is Phil. Comment about Chikage? Also irrelevant plus you don't have an ounce of evidence to suggest the one encounter we've seen her in wasn't consensual.
As has been said repeatedly Phil had overpowered her physically, had stopped her suicide attempt by threatening her friend's lives and the lives of the innocent. At this point she was completely helpless. As in cannot fight back.

Killing demons? Fine, it's practically a war anyway. Torture via rape. No. That's just evil. You cannot sugar coat this any other way. Seriously what part do you not understand?
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:43   Link #774
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ZzzZzZZzzzz you people still go at it lol.
How about we just do this:
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Old 2012-09-03, 19:30   Link #775
AzureWrath
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My argument is that there isn't much reason for the hate against Phil. That was my very first post. I said that his actions are lead by reason. Most of them can be easily explained. I even admitted that the rape one was hard to defend.

I will say again that I don't think he was going to rape her. From the context of the scene to his words about how Myuu got Akatsuki to spare her are in form for breaking her down. Combined with that fact that he says he only slays demons makes me believe that rape was not his intention. Also, as he says, he is a hero after all.

For a meta analysis, we are in a shouen situation. Hell, they are practically shouen heroes themselves. I'lll be damned if the old shouen tropes of random power ups coming at inopportune times wasn't ingrained in their culture. Combined with how you really can't judge people's power level on impressions. Combined with Myuu being the daughter of the strongest person in their world. Wouldn't you take precaution and break the other person down as much as possible? If for whatever reason Myuu is actually super strong (which I'm sure she will come out later with some hax powers), then Phil is employing psychological warfare in case he loses the physical one. It is always the helpless situations in shouens where people get their powers

Now I already knew I was on the losing end of this battle. I'm almost sure next episode or so we will see that Phil and his kingdom are evil and have some master evil plan. I've already said that. I even said I don't particularly like Phil (just that he was a nice change from normal villans). What I argued was that up till now, I saw reasoning behind his actions that don't make hate surge up from within me.

The others in this thread skipping over other lapses in morality of other characters in this same universe only reinforce the notion that we give more leeway to the protagonist's views (come on now, that random girl ran out of the room like she didn't want to be there with Chikage).
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Old 2012-09-03, 19:46   Link #776
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
The second point does matter. It defines the morality of the world. This is a world where it was ok to green light a contest where the winning condition was thief of swim suit. This is a world where Chikage goes around raping women in broad day light. This is a world that obviously has different morals than our own.
Lol wut? When did Chikage go around raping women.


Quote:
Add that to the fact that Myuu is the daughter of the most powerful being and the nature of shouen power ups, I think Phil was alright to break her down as much as he could. To him, who knows how powerful she really is?
So it's totally alright for me to judge you by your parents and if I dislike them or not right? So what do your parents do?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
My argument is that there isn't much reason for the hate against Phil. That was my very first post. I said that his actions are lead by reason. Most of them can be easily explained. I even admitted that the rape one was hard to defend.
I think you're not quite getting something here. He can be totally logical and people WILL STILL HATE HIM cause he's a jerk. I have no idea where you got this notion that 'but it's logical, so don't hate him for it'. That's got nothing to do with whether he's a jerk or not.

Quote:
I will say again that I don't think he was going to rape her. From the context of the scene to his words about how Myuu got Akatsuki to spare her are in form for breaking her down. Combined with that fact that he says he only slays demons makes me believe that rape was not his intention. Also, as he says, he is a hero after all.
Anyone can call themselves a hero. Even the previous hero called himself a hero and he was a genocidal jerk. So Phil can be a murdering/raping jerk and still call himself a hero. Note you're the ONLY ONE who thinks Phil is bluffing when he attempts to rape her.

Quote:
For a meta analysis, we are in a shouen situation. Hell, they are practically shouen heroes themselves. I'lll be damned if the old shouen tropes of random power ups coming at inopportune times wasn't ingrained in their culture. Combined with how you really can't judge people's power level on impressions. Combined with Myuu being the daughter of the strongest person in their world. Wouldn't you take precaution and break the other person down as much as possible? If for whatever reason Myuu is actually super strong (which I'm sure she will come out later with some hax powers), then Phil is employing psychological warfare in case he loses the physical one. It is always the helpless situations in shouens where people get their powers
Long text above about justifying the attempted rape.

Quote:
The others in this thread skipping over other lapses in morality of other characters in this same universe only reinforce the notion that we give more leeway to the protagonist's views (come on now, that random girl ran out of the room like she didn't want to be there with Chikage).
Maybe cause she doesn't want others to know she plays for the other team?
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Old 2012-09-03, 20:10   Link #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
My argument is that there isn't much reason for the hate against Phil. That was my very first post. I said that his actions are lead by reason. Most of them can be easily explained. I even admitted that the rape one was hard to defend.
Then why are we still having this conversation?

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Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
I will say again that I don't think he was going to rape her. From the context of the scene to his words about how Myuu got Akatsuki to spare her are in form for breaking her down. Combined with that fact that he says he only slays demons makes me believe that rape was not his intention. Also, as he says, he is a hero after all.
You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. You still haven't given a convincing reason why this course of action is more necessary then simply knocking her out and tying her up since she's already caught and her suicide attempt is foiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
For a meta analysis, we are in a shouen situation. Hell, they are practically shouen heroes themselves. I'lll be damned if the old shouen tropes of random power ups coming at inopportune times wasn't ingrained in their culture. Combined with how you really can't judge people's power level on impressions. Combined with Myuu being the daughter of the strongest person in their world. Wouldn't you take precaution and break the other person down as much as possible? If for whatever reason Myuu is actually super strong (which I'm sure she will come out later with some hax powers), then Phil is employing psychological warfare in case he loses the physical one. It is always the helpless situations in shouens where people get their powers
So knocking her out, tying her up, and gagging her isn't enough? He had already broken her will to resist by threatening her friends and innocent students lives. Perhaps he wouldn't seriously do it but she doesn't know that. Also if you want to talk tropes, isn't also a classic trope to experience a massive powerup in an utterly hopeless situation? Throwing someone too deeply into the pit of despair through something severely traumatizing has been known to bring out hidden power as well. Perhaps Phil's gambit isn't so logical anymore? Regardless if he intended to do it or not, it's enough if Myuu believes it and you can plainly tell in the scene she's frightened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
Now I already knew I was on the losing end of this battle. I'm almost sure next episode or so we will see that Phil and his kingdom are evil and have some master evil plan. I've already said that. I even said I don't particularly like Phil (just that he was a nice change from normal villans). What I argued was that up till now, I saw reasoning behind his actions that don't make hate surge up from within me.
We're not asking you to hate him, we're asking you to admit he's nowhere near what you would call a hero. Which you already seem to mostly have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
The others in this thread skipping over other lapses in morality of other characters in this same universe only reinforce the notion that we give more leeway to the protagonist's views (come on now, that random girl ran out of the room like she didn't want to be there with Chikage).
She was humiliated that random strangers walked in on her getting it on with someone, another girl at that. That's a fairly normal reaction, putting the girl on girl thing aside entirely, getting caught in a compromising position like this is more than a little embarrassing.
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Old 2012-09-04, 08:27   Link #778
Newhope
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Akatsuki's sexually assault/pranks aren't even in the same league as Phil's have sex with me or I'll kill you and your people, so nowadays stealing bras is as big a crime as blackmail with the intent to rape and genocide.

Fair enough capturing her and using her to end a war but to do what Phil did is work of scum of the highest order.
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Old 2012-09-04, 15:25   Link #779
Xaturas
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Originally Posted by Newhope View Post
Akatsuki's sexually assault/pranks aren't even in the same league as Phil's have sex with me or I'll kill you and your people, so nowadays stealing bras is as big a crime as blackmail with the intent to rape and genocide.
If you would sometimes read sankakucomplex for some lolz, you would see how fuced up japanese law system is now.
At one point teachers abusing and sexually assaulting children gets small penalties. Same goes for bullies.
On the other hand you have Osaka police chasing a man because he looked at a girl at train station.

Seriously funny shit is funny.

Though you people should stop comparing Akatsuki and Phill, one is grey the other one is black, end of the thread.
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Old 2012-09-04, 18:29   Link #780
justinstrife
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Perhaps the posters who defend Phil on here would like to trr and defend what he did to the school's faculty and the school's property before going after Miu? Who knows how many people he injured or killed, not to mention, knocking out the school's barrier that protects students from magic damage...
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