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Old 2012-10-29, 15:24   Link #201
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Academic Paper on "Why Oil-Rich States are So Violent"

http://q-aps.princeton.edu/q-aps/files/Blair.pdf
Oh, dear. Try saying that to Canada!

Whoever did the study has forgotten a few items in there.
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Old 2012-10-29, 15:49   Link #202
ArchmageXin
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China and Russia dislike any kind of interventionism because they believe it is a card for America and the west to play and incite rebellions/lead to invasion.

While some people can say China is afraid of its own people and west's "White Knight" intervention could be used to free regions like Tibet, Xinjiang and similar areas, other can cynically argue these interventions in the past are not to the benefits of locals but seemingly help the profit of western companies.

Plus, the west don't exactly have that great of a record in "regime change" anyway.

Does this mean it is ok for dictators to nerve gas/murder/arrest its own people? No, probably not. But adding western weapons and troops into the mix is no guarantee for success.

As for Syria, I think I will sit back and watch-If the rebels are meant to win, they will. If Assad proven to be stronger, o well. If it turn into a Somalia at the throat of Israel, with Jihadis running amok and no government for anyone to hold responsible....
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Old 2012-10-29, 16:43   Link #203
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
China and Russia dislike any kind of interventionism because they believe it is a card for America and the west to play and incite rebellions/lead to invasion.
No, China and Russia dislike western intervention in their perceived sphere of influence, they certainly have no qualms about intervening in those countries themselves. They aren't against western intervention based on some ideological ground, but purely from the perspective of their own interests.

Quote:
While some people can say China is afraid of its own people and west's "White Knight" intervention could be used to free regions like Tibet, Xinjiang and similar areas, other can cynically argue these interventions in the past are not to the benefits of locals but seemingly help the profit of western companies.
The motive may not be, but the people that are being slaughtered probably doesn't give two **** about the motive. Ask the Albanians if they cared about the reason NATO decided to intervene in Kosovo, or better yet, the Rwandans how good it feels to be ignored. After all, what's a few hundreds of thousands of deaths if it means western companies didn't make any profits!

Quote:
Does this mean it is ok for dictators to nerve gas/murder/arrest its own people? No, probably not. But adding western weapons and troops into the mix is no guarantee for success.
"probably"? how about a flat out "No"?

Chemo and radiation therapy also isn't a guarantee for success, I guess cancer patients shouldn't bother with those either.

Quote:
As for Syria, I think I will sit back and watch-If the rebels are meant to win, they will. If Assad proven to be stronger, o well. If it turn into a Somalia at the throat of Israel, with Jihadis running amok and no government for anyone to hold responsible...
Not like you can do anything else.
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Old 2012-10-29, 16:57   Link #204
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Oh, dear. Try saying that to Canada!

Whoever did the study has forgotten a few items in there.
Canada as a whole, probably not.
But if one would look at Alberta...
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Old 2012-10-29, 18:35   Link #205
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Crazy Warmongering Canadians. Always making look like its the American or British moving in on helpless countries when it is really Canadian Mounties in disguise.


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Old 2012-10-29, 18:39   Link #206
ganbaru
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^ It isn't that much but the canadian troups didn't have a good reputation in the 2 world war for nothing.
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Old 2012-10-29, 20:33   Link #207
ArchmageXin
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No, China and Russia dislike western intervention in their perceived sphere of influence, they certainly have no qualms about intervening in those countries themselves. They aren't against western intervention based on some ideological ground, but purely from the perspective of their own interests.

And how that is different than the west? Does it matter if a dictator is installed by a CIA or KGB coup?


The motive may not be, but the people that are being slaughtered probably doesn't give two **** about the motive. Ask the Albanians if they cared about the reason NATO decided to intervene in Kosovo, or better yet, the Rwandans how good it feels to be ignored. After all, what's a few hundreds of thousands of deaths if it means western companies didn't make any profits!


So if Joe Mohammad was bombed into smithereens by a drone attack, his family should take comfort it was done by the Americans for freedom and liberty?


Chemo and radiation therapy also isn't a guarantee for success, I guess cancer patients shouldn't bother with those either.


But the patients are given the right of refusal, and analysis, and medical advice. The Yemenis's version of Obamacare apparently involve Hellfire missiles in the dark of the night.
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Old 2012-10-29, 21:08   Link #208
kyp275
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
And how that is different than the west? Does it matter if a dictator is installed by a CIA or KGB coup?
It isn't, but I'm not the one here claiming it is, you are, don't try to backpedal now.

Quote:
So if Joe Mohammad was bombed into smithereens by a drone attack, his family should take comfort it was done by the Americans for freedom and liberty?
Red herring. You implied that all interventions are done for corporate profits, I responded with examples that clearly debunks your implications, but nowhere did I say all interventions are good or that they cause no collateral damage, so don't try to put words in my mouth.

Quote:
But the patients are given the right of refusal, and analysis, and medical advice. The Yemenis's version of Obamacare apparently involve Hellfire missiles in the dark of the night.
More red herrings, the cancer treatment statement was specifically towards your implication that solutions that does not guarantee success are not worth doing. A statement that is all the more ridiculous given that you set the parameter at mass murder/genocide.

Sure am glad you weren't in charge back in the 40s, after all, Hitler may have been gassing/murdering/arresting his own (and other's) people, but since a US intervention isn't guaranteed to be successful, we shouldn't get involved right?

Or better yet, we should have asked the German people for permission to intervene first!

Seriously, try to debate the issues without resorting to logical fallacies and deflections.
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Old 2012-10-29, 22:32   Link #209
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It isn't, but I'm not the one here claiming it is, you are, don't try to backpedal now.



Red herring. You implied that all interventions are done for corporate profits, I responded with examples that clearly debunks your implications, but nowhere did I say all interventions are good or that they cause no collateral damage, so don't try to put words in my mouth.



More red herrings, the cancer treatment statement was specifically towards your implication that solutions that does not guarantee success are not worth doing. A statement that is all the more ridiculous given that you set the parameter at mass murder/genocide.

Sure am glad you weren't in charge back in the 40s, after all, Hitler may have been gassing/murdering/arresting his own (and other's) people, but since a US intervention isn't guaranteed to be successful, we shouldn't get involved right?

Or better yet, we should have asked the German people for permission to intervene first!

Seriously, try to debate the issues without resorting to logical fallacies and deflections.
You are tossing out red herring as well. Every time American neo-cons/Isreali war-hawks feeling the urge of war/punish the Palestinians they bring up Adolf as if "we don't bomb now, concentration camps later."

Never minding Adolf declared war on America, or the fact the Nazi's extermination was modeled after American eugenic policies in the same era. Or if idiots like the western powers never put up the punishing treaty at Versailles, this whole mess would had been avoided and the like of Nazis would never came to power.
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Old 2012-10-29, 22:59   Link #210
kyp275
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
You are tossing out red herring as well. Every time American neo-cons/Isreali war-hawks feeling the urge of war/punish the Palestinians they bring up Adolf as if "we don't bomb now, concentration camps later."

Never minding Adolf declared war on America, or the fact the Nazi's extermination was modeled after American eugenic policies in the same era. Or if idiots like the western powers never put up the punishing treaty at Versailles, this whole mess would had been avoided and the like of Nazis would never came to power.
LOL

In case you didn't notice (which you clearly didn't), the whole Hitler comparison/parody was to show how ridiculous your statement was.

Man, the irony! Not only did you seemingly miss the entire point of my post, you accuse me of red herrings WHILE tossing out yet another red herring! (double red herring? lol). I mean, when the **** did Palestine/Israel became part of the debate?

Oh, that's right, it never was, until you brought it in out of nowhere as yet another fail attempt at red herring/deflection.

BTW, good try at a not-so-subtle attempt at implying I'm a neo-con or pro-Israel and FYI, I'm neither.

The most hilarious part of all this is that you haven't even managed to come up with ONE valid counter-argument to ANY of the points I've made, literally EVERYTHING you've said so far are logical fallacies and fail attempts at deflections

I don't know if you're just trolling at this point or what. I hope you are, because if you're not, you're going to need to brush up on your reading comprehension and learn how to debate without endlessly tripping from one fallacy to another.

Last edited by kyp275; 2012-10-30 at 04:20.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:48   Link #211
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Never minding Adolf declared war on America, or the fact the Nazi's extermination was modeled after American eugenic policies in the same era. Or if idiots like the western powers never put up the punishing treaty at Versailles, this whole mess would had been avoided and the like of Nazis would never came to power.
Don't forget the seldom cited "Treaty of St. Germain" -- that said keep in mind how primitive the world's understanding of global socio-economic ideas were at this time. "They blew it up and therefore they should pay" is an easy concept to understand, albeit wrong, when it comes to the background issues. War doesn't happen in a bubble .. I'd like to remind everyone of that in THIS case as well.
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Old 2012-10-30, 19:35   Link #212
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
^ It isn't that much but the canadian troups didn't have a good reputation in the 2 world war for nothing.
The Germans even called Canadians as the stormtroopers of the Empire when entire contingents of the British Empire were called for duty in Europe.

Such different times when we rightfully earned that respect from worldwide.
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Old 2012-11-01, 03:37   Link #213
ganbaru
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Syria turmoil stirs Iraqi tribal sympathies, hopes
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89U0X020121031
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Old 2012-11-01, 08:35   Link #214
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Syria turmoil stirs Iraqi tribal sympathies, hopes
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89U0X020121031
I am quite dejected when I see stuff like this; in the Mideast, when the Muslims are not fighting the Christians since the crusades, they are fighting amongst themselves.
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Old 2012-11-04, 11:06   Link #215
Arturia Polaris
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am quite dejected when I see stuff like this; in the Mideast, when the Muslims are not fighting the Christians since the crusades, they are fighting amongst themselves.
I find it that this applies to the whole world, not only muslims...

Arty

PS: What's the news on the Syrian front?
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Old 2012-11-04, 11:13   Link #216
Om Nerabdator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Does this mean it is ok for dictators to nerve gas/murder/arrest its own people?
well at least they didnt nuke two cities

I always find it hard when i see usa playing whiteknight when i remember that
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Old 2012-11-04, 12:29   Link #217
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator View Post
well at least they didnt nuke two cities

I always find it hard when i see usa playing whiteknight when i remember that
Mass casualties in a TOTAL WORLD WAR in the past doesn't mean you can't call out other's atrocities later.

Show me a human civilization that hasn't committed any wrongs. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Last edited by kyp275; 2012-11-04 at 12:42.
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Old 2012-11-04, 23:29   Link #218
Om Nerabdator
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Mass casualties in a TOTAL WORLD WAR in the past doesn't mean you can't call out other's atrocities later.

Show me a human civilization that hasn't committed any wrongs. Go ahead, I'll wait.
CANADA!!! lol
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Old 2012-11-04, 23:35   Link #219
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator View Post
CANADA!!! lol
Actually, we genocide'd the Native Americans and gave them blankets infected with disease .. so try again

(PS: We also were too dumb to force them to sign treaties so we're still dealing with it now.. )
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Old 2012-11-04, 23:49   Link #220
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Talk show Insight aired an episode with both supporters and opponents of the Assad regime on to air their views. AUstralia has a sizable Syrian migrant population.
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