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Old 2013-02-18, 17:29   Link #261
Justin_Brett
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Oh believe me, flat main characters DO exist xDU
Can you say more than one or two things about them? Then they're not flat.
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Old 2013-02-18, 17:29   Link #262
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Yeah, that was what I was getting at. Perhaps I didn't phrase it well enough. Learning what happens to the Numbers and how they are adapting was essentially development for them, in SSX.
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:14   Link #263
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
You should look up what a Flat Character is. A lead character cannot be one by virtue of them having more than one facet to their personality by default.

That's just debating semantics. We're not talking about the literary term here which really wasn't even invoked, but the relative lack of quality of development aka "flatness". So while they are by definition not flat characters, it also has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:32   Link #264
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Yes, certain posters like to blame a characters lack of development on stolen or misplaced screen time, yet it is no ones fault but their own. If they were presented as interesting in the first place, they would have gotten the development they deserved. And they wouldn't have to worry about other, more interesting characters "stealing" the show. I prefer to call it "saving" the show, however...
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:33   Link #265
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If they were presented as interesting in the first place, they would have gotten the development they deserved. And they wouldn't have to worry about other more interesting characters "stealing" the show.
Quoted for iron-clad absolute truth o_o
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:00   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
If they were presented as interesting in the first place, they would have gotten the development they deserved.
Or, you know, they didn't have to compete with Fate and Nanoha for screen time...

After all, look at Hayate and how badly she was handled in StrikerS...

Are you telling me that Hayate was never interesting?

Granted, I blame the writing staff, but still...
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:11   Link #267
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Nanya, really? Almost as bad as Akiyoshi? I take offense to that. But no, I donít hate everything: why you think I dislike the mangas so much and yet I still bother? I like the first seasons. I like the movie, I like the movie manga, I like Aís Comics, I like even the games stories when I never had the chance to buy them, I even like characters from such games so no, I donít hate everything. My problem is just that I care and so when I see something I like being poorly done like I think this is of course I will hate it. And complains we have for everything but the only reason why I insist is because I want this to get better. Just take it and not voice out what I see as bad stories is just not what I am willing to take as a fan. But most important of all things: I care about this franchise. Otherwise I will say ďI hate this thingĒ and be done with it like I did with other things I also dislike a lot for my own reasons. You seem to think just because I donít like how things are now I donít like anything. Maybe I donít like what you like, that seems to be the case.

And Kaijo, you miss the point back there with the Sound Stage X. I say I like some of it and as a matter of fact I did enjoy the first disc, most of it anyway. The introduction to this new plot was, while not the best out there, all things consider not that bad and Subaruís development thanks to that death was neat to see. BUT then it comes down to what happens next. At no point I think Subaru does change as a result of the experience or that this pushes her to do anything she already will be willing to do. So yeah, nice moment but forget and never talk about again. Because Subaruís has no real arc in Force I canít tell her any different as the way she was in StrikerS and that really makes you realize the amount of impact this had on her.

I know what a sound stage is, that is why I say this uses too much sound effects to fights we canít see. Is like in a cartoon when they turn the lights and we just hear hits and screams. I have no idea who is doing what or what is going on. A sound stage should use more dialogue and by that I donít mean rants like Runessaís about the plot and more actual interaction which that thing could get right at times but not enough so we could care about the villain here. I think you miss the point also with Caro and Erio, they are just side characters to help Fate, a main character, so really when they no longer fit that role they should go like Nanohaís family on Earth.

In the end SSX didnít had a real mystery. It had a poorly explain plot about a guy wanting to make robots to kill people because he was an asshole while a girl decide to help her because she was an idiot. At no point I can really force myself to like them or even getting start to understand their motives and ideas. I just see them wanting to cause destruction for the purpose of being jerks and serve as the antagonist of the story.

Also I do say Hayate was never interesting to me.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:20   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Or, you know, they didn't have to compete with Fate and Nanoha for screen time...

After all, look at Hayate and how badly she was handled in StrikerS...

Are you telling me that Hayate was never interesting?

Granted, I blame the writing staff, but still...
Whoa, Hayate was with Nanoha and Fate in A's too. They all did well and were featured heavily, so you shouldn't really think they're mutually exclusive in development. Hayate didn't need that much screentime to shine and the story is basically about her. Anything that helps define the relationship between them is going to strengthen all their characters.

So what changed between A's and StrikerS? Why is the series twice as long yet Hayate cannot reserve 10 more minutes to shine? Was Fate so evil to not even waste 10 minutes of her time up? Why does the show insist on making Hayate look bad and not display at the very least more skills of being a leader, instead of just foisting her up there?

IMO putting Hayate in command did her character a disservice. You could also ask Chrono too, since he effectively got kicked upstairs. And speaking of Chrono, he always had minimal screentime yet manages to come off as a badass and leader. But you know, from what I saw on screen, it was far easier to accept Chrono in the position he got himself into. So yea... it's not always about bulk in screentime. And really, Fate's development in StrikerS wasn't that impressive either. Ultimately, it's Nanoha that comes out the stronger.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:24   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Or, you know, they didn't have to compete with Fate and Nanoha for screen time...

After all, look at Hayate and how badly she was handled in StrikerS...

Are you telling me that Hayate was never interesting?

Granted, I blame the writing staff, but still...
She could have been in StrikerS, but she had a missed opportunity for me in a's and I wasn't really sure what more I should expect from her at that point. She was a nice girl with an illness who spoke in kansai-ben. By the end of A's, she was still a nice girl who no longer had an illness and still spoke in kansai-ben. And I'd like to note, this doesn't mean she didn't have a good portion of screentime, because she did-- I just don't think it was used as effectively as it could have been. Anyways, from there, we were introduced with a couple dozen new characters as well as the old, returning cast, all of which vied for screen time. Quite frankly, without the existence of the new cast, 26 episodes would have been perfect to develop all of the characters in A's. Yet because that did not happen, A's was Hayate's time to shine, and she fell short, in my opinion. You need to have a lasting first impression to hold long enough for the creators to gain acknowledgment of your popularity. And then you may just become something in future installments. Why promote something that doesn't sell(as much), after all?

Also, Hayate should have never been a colonel. It just doesn't suit her.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:35   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Nanya, really? Almost as bad as Akiyoshi? I take offense to that. But no, I donít hate everything
You could have fooled me, Sansker.

Every post I see of yours is complain, complain, complain.

We've put up with Aki for over 2 years now BITCHING about Signum getting "worfed" in Force (with her ONLY FUCKING LOSS TO THAT POINT EVER), so you'll have to pardon me if I don't believe you.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:49   Link #271
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I'll say that, given Hayate's magical style and her relative lack of close range capability, she pretty much was only suited for command. If she had been given close range capability, added to her other strengths, fans would have screamed OP; she would have put Nanoha to shame. Given her power, it would be difficult to let her shine in a combat role, without stealing the show, so command it is. And I'm probably one of the few who did like her development in StrikerS. One of my fondest memories of her, is her confrontation with Auris, where we see exactly how much she's grown.

But what I think people wanted to see, was her in combat, kicking ass, which seems to be about the only metric some might judge a character.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Yes, certain posters like to blame a characters lack of development on stolen or misplaced screen time, yet it is no ones fault but their own. If they were presented as interesting in the first place, they would have gotten the development they deserved. And they wouldn't have to worry about other, more interesting characters "stealing" the show. I prefer to call it "saving" the show, however...
Well, if you listen to Sansker, no one has really gotten any development. Or at least, very few did. Personally, I think most got enough development, and I do like all the characters. But I can't deny that some characters were removed and others added, solely for the benefit of a single character. It is difficult to deny seeing someone get extra focus who didn't need it, while others get much less focus.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:09   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'll say that, given Hayate's magical style and her relative lack of close range capability, she pretty much was only suited for command. If she had been given close range capability, added to her other strengths, fans would have screamed OP; she would have put Nanoha to shame. Given her power, it would be difficult to let her shine in a combat role, without stealing the show, so command it is. And I'm probably one of the few who did like her development in StrikerS. One of my fondest memories of her, is her confrontation with Auris, where we see exactly how much she's grown.
And what is wrong with her being OP? This entire god damned series has featured overpowered young girls blasting away entire landscapes with their power. And Hayate clearly should be OP given the source of her power; there's no contradiction unless one wants to argue that enemies would no longer be a threat. =p But maybe they set the bar too high for antagonists in A's?

I can accept Hayate curbstopping loads of opponents with her powers more than I can accept her in a command position. The personality just doesn't reflect it from what the anime shows.

Quote:
But what I think people wanted to see, was her in combat, kicking ass, which seems to be about the only metric some might judge a character.
But I'm not Ak-. Okay never mind. But I do believe Nanoha never became popular because it was a riveting look of the insides of the Time Space Bureaucracy. So naturally the people that see combat situations are going to get the spotlight which is why Yuuno heavily suffered. Though they really could have taken more trips to the library for useful purposes too... there's definitely space for civilian and command posts but they were just never taken advantage of. Though fiction has advantages. If they're not near the action, then bring the action to them. People should never be denied opportunities, especially the more cherished characters.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:32   Link #273
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
And what is wrong with her being OP? This entire god damned series has featured overpowered young girls blasting away entire landscapes with their power. And Hayate clearly should be OP given the source of her power; there's no contradiction unless one wants to argue that enemies would no longer be a threat. =p But maybe they set the bar too high for antagonists in A's?
From one point of view, you are correct. We don't have problems with girls blasting things away... but the focus has been on Nanoha being on the top of that game. The most powerful villain needs the most powerful hero to confront it. If Hayate is then stronger, then the rationale would be to send Hayate at it, instead of Nanoha.

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I can accept Hayate curbstopping loads of opponents with her powers more than I can accept her in a command position. The personality just doesn't reflect it from what the anime shows.
I'll have to disagree a bit, because I don't think the non-combat people get enough respect. Then again, I'm a bit more intellectual by nature, even though I recognize that people, by and large, worship physical types like football and sports stars, then they do chess masters.

Another thing to consider, is that Tsuzuki was going for world-building in StrikerS, and that means he needed to focus some on the politics and bureaucracy in command. And someone needed to lead RF6. Might as well have been Hayate. Again, I know people prefer action over seeing politics, generally, but I actually like seeing political ploys in action as well. Not too much, but just enough to make the overall plot more interesting. And I think Tsuzuki succeeded in this, with the way he set up the council, Jail, Regius, and their individual feelings.

Quote:
But I'm not Ak-. Okay never mind. But I do believe Nanoha never became popular because it was a riveting look of the insides of the Time Space Bureaucracy. So naturally the people that see combat situations are going to get the spotlight which is why Yuuno heavily suffered. Though they really could have taken more trips to the library for useful purposes too... there's definitely space for civilian and command posts but they were just never taken advantage of. Though fiction has advantages. If they're not near the action, then bring the action to them. People should never be denied opportunities, especially the more cherished characters.
Yuuno (and other characters) do get some extra time in sound stages and supplemental manga. He was the one who translated the Belkan prophecy that formed the basis for the creation of RF6. Him being there, instead of in combat, does make sense. Although I feel you can still come up with ways to get him into combat. But Yuuno in particular suffered because, if Tsuzuki had left him in, he'd have to deal with the Nanoha/Yuuno dynamic, which would tick off the Fate fans (which they need to milk for cash). That's why they had to pan off of Nanoha and Yuuno talking in ep 8. Another part of it is that Japanese male fans are BRUTAL, more so than any western fan. Look at the popular idol group AKB48 and it's rules for evidence of that. A good example is what happened to Minami Minegishi. Japanese male otaku don't like their female leads to have boyfriends.

But Arf, Chrono, Arisa, and Suzuka all suffered. It really feels like Shari's role could have been filled by Suzuka, and Arisa could have filled in for Alto, easily.

Anyway, while I'd agree that the combat of Nanoha is one of the big reasons it became popular, I don't think making the series more well-rounded was a bad idea. In that well-rounding role, there is room for commanders and librarians. At least, there should be. And I don't see Nanoha or Fate as commander material, so that just leaves the third member of the trio.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:49   Link #274
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From one point of view, you are correct. We don't have problems with girls blasting things away... but the focus has been on Nanoha being on the top of that game. The most powerful villain needs the most powerful hero to confront it. If Hayate is then stronger, then the rationale would be to send Hayate at it, instead of Nanoha.
You're the one who has an issue with characters having too much focus. So why is this an issue for you now? Because It's Nanoha, and not Fate? So let Hayate have the most powerful villain. From a personality perspective, Nanoha is far more suited to be commander role than Hayate. With how she likes to push her ideals onto others. She's not great at following orders, but the higher you go in the military hierarchy the more you can get away with. And being the commander of a battalion in a way keeps it so that having her name in the title still makes sense. It even could have been about Nanoha's ascension to the top. Where she makes the rules, and doesn't have to follow them.



Quote:
Yuuno (and other characters) do get some extra time in sound stages and supplemental manga. He was the one who translated the Belkan prophecy that formed the basis for the creation of RF6. Him being there, instead of in combat, does make sense. Although I feel you can still come up with ways to get him into combat. But Yuuno in particular suffered because, if Tsuzuki had left him in, he'd have to deal with the Nanoha/Yuuno dynamic, which would tick off the Fate fans (which they need to milk for cash).
Yeah, it would probably tick off Fate fans, but it would most certainly tick off Nanoha fans as well. This is a matter of how popular the pairing is as a whole, not the characters as individuals. Considering the vast popularity of the pairing it's shocking it hasn't actually been confirmed Canon. Which goes to show, Tsuzuki tries his best not to displease any part of the fandom...
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:52   Link #275
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I think most people had a problem with their execution of Hayate in StrikerS than the idea of it. A lot of commander characters in science fiction are popular enough - Bright Noa from Gundam, to name one. It just didn't work out.

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That's just debating semantics. We're not talking about the literary term here which really wasn't even invoked, but the relative lack of quality of development aka "flatness". So while they are by definition not flat characters, it also has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Well, either way you use the term, Sansker is incorrect, but I'm pretty sure he did mean the literary term for it to begin with.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:03   Link #276
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You're the one who has an issue with characters having too much focus. So why is this an issue for you now? Because It's Nanoha, and not Fate?
I do have an issue with some characters getting too much focus. But Hayate had enough focus in Strikers, in my opinion. Perhaps she could have gotten a couple more scenes with her actually blasting things in the final battle, but that's about it. As I said, I am probably one of the few who liked seeing her rise into a command position, and tackle the politics there.

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So let Hayate have the most powerful villain. From a personality perspective, Nanoha is far more suited to be commander role than Hayate. With how she likes to push her ideals onto others. She's not great at following orders, but the higher you go in the military hierarchy the more you can get away with. And being the commander of a battalion in a way keeps it so that having her name in the title still makes sense. It even could have been about Nanoha's ascension to the top. Where she makes the rules, and doesn't have to follow them.
I actually wouldn't have too much of a problem with this, and it has happened a few times, but... when your main character is in the title, and is still seen as the main heroine, it's basically a rule of thumb to send her at the biggest target. Especially since Nanoha is almost more shonen than mahou shoujo. That's where Naruto, Ichigo, Luffy, and Natsu all go: the biggest target, the end boss, etc. I don't expect Nanoha to subvert this.

If they made Hayate stronger, they'd have to invent reasons why she wasn't the one who went into the Cradle to destroy it. So, instead of Nanoha confronting Vivio, it would have been Hayate confronting Vivio. In order to keep Hayate outside, they needed to make her the commander. If Nanoha was the commander, she'd have to remain outside, and then you wouldn't have the Nanoha/Vivio scenes.

We also have Nanoha blatantly rejecting command, despite being promoted a lot. She wants to continue to pass her way of magic off onto others, and remain on the front line, so she likes where she is.

Quote:
Yeah, it would probably tick off Fate fans, but it would most certainly tick off Nanoha fans as well. This is a matter of how popular the pairing is as a whole, not the characters as individuals. Considering the vast popularity of the pairing it's shocking it hasn't actually been confirmed Canon. Which goes to show, Tsuzuki tries his best not to displease any part of the fandom...
You'll have to read the link above about what happened to Minami, to begin to get a glimpse into otaku culture in Japan. Idols get death threats if they are seen as being too close to a male. So it's not so much love for the pairing, as it is a hate if their chosen females, real or anime, get involved with a male. Once they get involved with a male, their popularity goes down. The exceptions are mainly in romantic or shoujo stories, where getting the guy is the objective. But those appeal mainly to girls, and not the rabid otaku guys.

So, in one respect, you are right: Tsuzuki is trying not to displease the fandom. It seems clear that he initially planned for Yuuno and Nanoha to grow closer together, but abandoned that after the Fate fans exploded, and wanted to push Fate and Nanoha together. He knows very well how fans would react. But he doesn't want to really outright put them together, either. So what we're gonna get, is what we're getting: Yuuno offscreen, and no outright confirmation of Nanoha/Fate in any fashion. That's the best you can do to please everyone, is to keep them all single.

Again, I'd highly encourage you to read that Minami article I linked to in my last post, to begin to get an idea of the culture over there.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:03   Link #277
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Is not incorrect. I mean using it for the side characters like the Numbers which didn't change one bit from one series to the other.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:05   Link #278
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Is not incorrect. I mean using it for the side characters like the Numbers which didn't change one bit from one series to the other.
Yeah, right. Cinque become less serious, Sein becomes a lot more perverted, Nove become less angry, etc...

So your saying that "he Numbers which didn't change one bit from one series to the other" is absolutely bull.

Oh, and about you not hating the series? Could have fooled me, what with all the bitching and whining.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:11   Link #279
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Yeah, right. Cinque become less serious, Sein becomes a lot more perverted, Nove become less angry, etc...

So your saying that "he Numbers which didn't change one bit from one series to the other" is absolutely bull.

Oh, and about you not hating the series? Could have fooled me, what with all the bitching and whining.

Even so we know so little about them. You see flat also means characters that don't undergo substantial change. You see we barely saw those two do anything at first and then we see them barely do anything later. They really don't change as much as just fit the spot. And I a master of deceptions, so I did my job.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:11   Link #280
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From one point of view, you are correct. We don't have problems with girls blasting things away... but the focus has been on Nanoha being on the top of that game. The most powerful villain needs the most powerful hero to confront it. If Hayate is then stronger, then the rationale would be to send Hayate at it, instead of Nanoha.
Well, the quibble is with the issue of screentime, not practicality. Though ultimately any manner of focus is contrived, it is still useful to highlight someone's involvement in the story.

I understand that Hayate's long range wide support role is not as exciting, but I think it's fine for a bit more showing off, since I felt it was insufficient. Showing how someone has honed a technique and matured over the last 10 years speaks nice volumes for character development.

But still, on a thematic level, I enjoy Nanoha's combat simply because the roles are like more in RPGs where people have unique abilities to add to the battle. It's not like DBZ where everyone just shoots larger light beams and only Goku means a damn. Well, at least the tail end of StrikerS had a multi-pronged affair where Hayate did something. Sorta. I liked it.

Quote:
I'll have to disagree a bit, because I don't think the non-combat people get enough respect. Then again, I'm a bit more intellectual by nature, even though I recognize that people, by and large, worship physical types like football and sports stars, then they do chess masters.
They do if it's handled right. Bright Noa never piloted a Gundam but he's rather famous. It was great to have a competent leader enforcing discpline and control. A leader that inspires the other characters to perform well is just as valuable as a resource.

Though I understand that not all leaders have to fight. For example, Captain Picard was a great captain, but any attempts to put him in an action scene usually ended up awkward. In these cases it would be like developing a King as an opening in chess. Still, there's a certain type of strong personality a good leader brings out. And I'm just not sure whether or not to buy that from Hayate. Look at Lindy or Chrono in StrikerS, and it's easy to see why they are where they are, even if they don't ever lift a finger to attack anything.


Quote:
Another thing to consider, is that Tsuzuki was going for world-building in StrikerS, and that means he needed to focus some on the politics and bureaucracy in command. And someone needed to lead RF6. Might as well have been Hayate. Again, I know people prefer action over seeing politics, generally, but I actually like seeing political ploys in action as well. Not too much, but just enough to make the overall plot more interesting. And I think Tsuzuki succeeded in this, with the way he set up the council, Jail, Regius, and their individual feelings.
Yes he was. I think it got sorta dilluted as with everything else and Hayate suffered as a result. They tried to get Hayate to pull strings like a Daisuke Aramaki but that would have been excellent if they got that across.


Quote:
Yuuno (and other characters) do get some extra time in sound stages and supplemental manga. He was the one who translated the Belkan prophecy that formed the basis for the creation of RF6. Him being there, instead of in combat, does make sense. Although I feel you can still come up with ways to get him into combat. But Yuuno in particular suffered because, if Tsuzuki had left him in, he'd have to deal with the Nanoha/Yuuno dynamic, which would tick off the Fate fans (which they need to milk for cash). That's why they had to pan off of Nanoha and Yuuno talking in ep 8. Another part of it is that Japanese male fans are BRUTAL, more so than any western fan. Look at the popular idol group AKB48 and it's rules for evidence of that. A good example is what happened to Minami Minegishi. Japanese male otaku don't like their female leads to have boyfriends.
Bottom line though: He gets screwed. Putting him in a sound stage is just compensation.

Yes, I'm aware that the fanbase is super ambivalent to actual relationships happening. But refusing to bite the bullet has definitely caused some internal bleeding too, as we have nothing now. It's fine for me, for I don't mind strong female leads never getting into a relationship and focusing on her carreer (Really, women aren't just bred for marriage ffs) but it can definitely hurt many others with diffrent preferences.

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But Arf, Chrono, Arisa, and Suzuka all suffered. It really feels like Shari's role could have been filled by Suzuka, and Arisa could have filled in for Alto, easily.
It's funny that you bring up Arisa and Suzuka. In the grand scheme of things, they don't seem to matter. But in reality, they are huge. Those small interactions are critical to building character. This is why I consider them to be good, functioning characters. They really don't get that much important screentime, but they make it matter. And StrikerS forgetting them is unforgivable. It would have taken all of 5 minutes and helps restablish continuity, and that things that happen actually mean something.
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Anyway, while I'd agree that the combat of Nanoha is one of the big reasons it became popular, I don't think making the series more well-rounded was a bad idea. In that well-rounding role, there is room for commanders and librarians. At least, there should be. And I don't see Nanoha or Fate as commander material, so that just leaves the third member of the trio.
Well, I don't believe in filling spaces just because they can be. Well, Yuno makes a great librarian and a clever enough mind would get him to participate more. (Although he's actually perfect for the command desk job though. He has a ton of experience on important matters...)
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