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Old 2013-02-18, 21:17   Link #281
Lhklan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Even so we know so little about them. You see flat also means characters that don't undergo substantial change. You see we barely saw those two do anything at first and then we see them barely do anything later. They really don't change as much as just fit the spot. And I a master of deceptions, so I did my job.
It's not us who know so little about them. It's just YOU who chose to look at them as flat characters and not willing to change that impression. Each of them underwent character development in StrikerS, with some more depths added to them in SSX (like Cinque still see Jail as a father and doesn't automatical go "I Hate you Villain Dad!" route).

Also, master of deceptions? More like master of baiting. And bitching.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:19   Link #282
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
At least with a sound stage, we get more world building.
Sadly, it's not anything that they actually use again. Have we seen or heard anything more from Orussia, since?

Now, it would have been cool if Toreida had done the sensible thing, and unleashed the Mariage on his enemies in Orussia. Then the planet might have called off its civil war long enough to call in the TSAB.

This would have shown us how the TSAB deals with charter planets AND introduced us to the ground-level of an entirely new world.

Quote:
Did you miss Caro and Erio's talk with Arf? ...Well, that reduced their development once again to just their relationship with Fate, but that's the price they pay for being related to Fate. Her character pretty much destroys almost everyone else around her, and thus the character of Fate is the most ruinous part of Nanoha. Erio and Caro exist just to advance Fate, and that's it. The sooner Fate is gone from the series, the better.
That's an... interesting claim.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Fate as a character, though I do agree that the writers have not used her well. ESPECIALLY in regards to giving her more screentime than strictly necessary.

The Lotus Eater Dream in the Reinforce Battle was... well, did it really need to be there? They wasted a perfect opportunity to use a Lotus Eater lost logia in a later plot; it's not like they needed to wrap up "the adoption" subplot in that season. And was it even necessary for advancing that subplot?

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Yes, certain posters like to blame a characters lack of development on stolen or misplaced screen time, yet it is no ones fault but their own.
This is also an interesting claim.

I suppose it's your own fault to be born into a country that has running water and internet services, as opposed to a third world country where you need to wipe with leaves.

Characters cannot affect the writers' decisions. It's up to the writer to make the best use of a character concept, and not all of them are up to the task. The same concept can be used amazingly or poorly, depending on the writer.

Even a character who makes absolutely terrible decisions and has a generally reprehensible personality can be interesting... We call them "villains"! Just look at Presea.

Quote:
If they were presented as interesting in the first place, they would have gotten the development they deserved.
You might check out the "Saved From The Scrappy Heap" page, over at TVTropes. That ought to provide many examples of poorly-executed characters who were redeemed through later decisions and additions by the writers.

Sometimes character development isn't presenting a new situation and having a character's personality change in reaction.

Character development can also be accomplished simply by introducing something "new" about a character that was always there, but had never been seen before. (Indeed, that's how it all STARTS; a character is introduced, and then developed by all of the things we learn about them from that point.)

For the most part, the characters in this franchise are flat and boring precisely because we never, ever learn anything new about the people they already ARE.

Yuuno is a prime example, but we could also learn more about Lindy, Amy or Charim by seeing glimpses of their past, or watching them do their jobs, or seeing any other hobbies they have besides drinking tea.


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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I don't see how you can say the introduction of Ixpellia was an accident. The mariages had to come from somewhere, and Ixpellia was the explanation. Finding her, then, would naturally happen near the climax.
Not that Ixpellia makes much sense as a character or plot device, of course.

Spoiler for Lots of text:
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:22   Link #283
Sansker
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Maybe we focus this the wrong way. Characters had to serve a purpose. At least side characters or secondary characters, while the main character while also serving a purpose had to be the ones that actually make us enter the story. Why it think the first seasons did it better was because they did focus on characters and they let us to why we should care. StrikerS tries to make the plot and tons of subplots do the same and fails for lack of time and excess of elements.

Hayate is fine, but her role as plot device in A’s was taken as a main character when, all things consider, she didn’t really matter that much. She was the reason why the Wolkenritter care enough to do bad things and yet her role is generic as all hell and could be anything really. Because she was a plot device. Then by the end she being a magical girl was really unnecessary and just add to have more little girls in different costumes. That way she was set right out the bat as a not good character. StrikerS then set hers away, clearly not knowing what to do with her and failing to make her more interesting as she ends doing little to nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
It's not us who know so little about them. It's just YOU who chose to look at them as flat characters and not willing to change that impression. Each of them underwent character development in StrikerS, with some more depths added to them in SSX (like Cinque still see Jail as a father and doesn't automatical go "I Hate you Villain Dad!" route).

Also, master of deceptions? More like master of baiting. And bitching.
And yet I am a master.

But maybe you are right, could be my interpretation of the characters as well as could be you looking too much in to really so little. I mean, why not?
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:33   Link #284
Demi.
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post


This is also an interesting claim.

I suppose it's your own fault to be born into a country that has running water and internet services, as opposed to a third world country where you need to wipe with leaves.

Characters cannot affect the writers' decisions. It's up to the writer to make the best use of a character concept, and not all of them are up to the task. The same concept can be used amazingly or poorly, depending on the writer.

Even a character who makes absolutely terrible decisions and has a generally reprehensible personality can be interesting... We call them "villains"! Just look at Presea.

Yet a character concept that was built poorly will have already failed. And that's what a vast majority of characters from this series suffer from. A character is the manifestation of a writers imagination. They are not their own being, so yes, when done poorly, it is their fault for not being able to garner the fans interest with their personality, looks, development, or whatever else viewers look for in a character. Most of the truly popular characters are characters who had a great first impression or at the very least kept the viewer interested to know more.

You can call unpopular characters whatever you like, but if they don't appeal to fans then they don't deserve the screen time. And while some people may consider Precia interesting, I certainly didn't. And she's absolutely not favorite character material. I've liked many villains from different anime. Which is not the Nanoha franchises strong suit.

Quote:
The Lotus Eater Dream in the Reinforce Battle was... well, did it really need to be there? They wasted a perfect opportunity to use a Lotus Eater lost logia in a later plot; it's not like they needed to wrap up "the adoption" subplot in that season. And was it even necessary for advancing that subplot?
It existed to wrap the events of the first season. Considering how Fate was very reluctant to let Precia go and actually stated she would gladly die pretecting her if she so wished it, the Dream Eater helped her to accept the past and move onto the future. It was certainly good development for Fate. Now you can consider it filler if you wish, but I still consider it one of the most well thought out scenes of A's.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:35   Link #285
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
But maybe you are right, could be my interpretation of the characters as well as could be you looking too much in to really so little. I mean, why not?
No, I'm pretty sure it's you.

After all, the Sound Stages are the reason that Cinque managed to avoid the same fate that befell Tre, Uno, Quattro and Sette with them in prison...

Not to mention that Sette is undergoing rehab right now to fix what Quattro did to her...

There's Dieci, the first of the Numbers to feel remorse over what she was doing when she looked at Vivio...

Not to mention Nove felt worried that she and her sisters were going to be treated like nothing more than weapons when all was said and done, which was why she refused to give up against Teana until the end...

Or how Wendi flat out said she wanted to just have fun, blow stuff up and just go wherever Nove was going, since they were only a few months apart.

Then there's Otto and Deed, a couple of chatterboxes that have no problem with teasing their older sisters.

Sein's fun, perverted and a bit immature, not to mention that she gets teased a lot by her other sisters...

Cinque and Tre both worried about Sette's development and were wondering what they could do to fix what Quattro did to her (Sette).

Uno's snarky and pretty good with a clipper and helped keep the others in line.

And Due wasn't anyone special, surely Jail didn't ask for a bottle of wine to give her a burial after her death, now did he?

And there certainly haven't been scenes of the N2R group adjusting to family life with a father.

Nope, we must all be looking into too much from too little.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:38   Link #286
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Hayate was much more than a plot device, she was a major influence on the plot.

The story would have been very different if Hayate had been more like a typical master. She shapes the entire story by being the kind of girl who's simply happy having a family, and who doesn't mind staying crippled when the alternative is to hurt people.

Even when she was manipulated into going berserk, it WAS -- again! -- her own decision, and that decision --again!-- had a major impact on the plot.


It doesn't matter what kind of power she acquired (or lost) by the end of the season. Or at least, that doesn't effect at all the value she had as a major character throughout the whole story.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:44   Link #287
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Most of the truly popular characters are characters who had a great first impression or at the very least kept the viewer interested to know more.
Or interested to see the same thing over and over again, as with Fate and the Testarossa household in general.

And it's not first impressions alone; it's also the last impression, or the whole impression that a viewer is left with by the end of the story.


After finishing Final Fantasy 6, you have a much different and stronger impression of Kefka than you did at the beginning of the game.

Closer to home, we all have a much different impression of Runessa at the end of SSX than we did after her first scene.

Closer still: Nanoha was a very different character in the first couple of episodes. While more than willing to help someone and jump into danger to do so, she wasn't so keen on magic or combat.

By the end of the series, Nanoha has developed into a girl who loves magical combat to the point that she's voluntarily going through Training From Hell, and will eventually decide to seek a career as a Magical Combat Instructor.

That's the last impression, which is different from the first.


Quote:
It existed to wrap the events of the first season.
That's what the First Season's sound-stages were for.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:49   Link #288
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Got two people to respond to, so gonna try and pare down what I respond to so this isn't super long. :P

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But still, on a thematic level, I enjoy Nanoha's combat simply because the roles are like more in RPGs where people have unique abilities to add to the battle. It's not like DBZ where everyone just shoots larger light beams and only Goku means a damn. Well, at least the tail end of StrikerS had a multi-pronged affair where Hayate did something. Sorta. I liked it.
Oh, I do, too. I like series where it simply isn't a matter of power level ala DBZ. But one where tactics comes into play. It's one of the reasons I like this series. That's why it is interest that Hayate, the person with the largest destructive power, isn't the main heroine, and is actually in a command role instead. Great way to subvert that particular shonen cliche.

Quote:
They do if it's handled right. Bright Noa never piloted a Gundam but he's rather famous. It was great to have a competent leader enforcing discpline and control. A leader that inspires the other characters to perform well is just as valuable as a resource.

Though I understand that not all leaders have to fight. For example, Captain Picard was a great captain, but any attempts to put him in an action scene usually ended up awkward. In these cases it would be like developing a King as an opening in chess. Still, there's a certain type of strong personality a good leader brings out. And I'm just not sure whether or not to buy that from Hayate. Look at Lindy or Chrono in StrikerS, and it's easy to see why they are where they are, even if they don't ever lift a finger to attack anything.

Yes he was. I think it got sorta dilluted as with everything else and Hayate suffered as a result. They tried to get Hayate to pull strings like a Daisuke Aramaki but that would have been excellent if they got that across.
I think one thing to keep in mind is, Hayate is still only 19. :P I don't exactly expect her to become Lelouch Lamperouge. What we got, I feel is a nice middle ground. You can tell she has potential, and is starting to get her feet wet... but she's not a chess master yet. She's got room to develop. And on that note, I enjoy seeing that development of hers in Force. She's getting better at knowing the score and reacting to it, although she still makes mistakes. The risks she takes aren't always guaranteed to turn out right.

So I think she pulls off "young commander with potential getting her feet wet" fairly well. If she were any stronger (intelligence-wise), I'd feel she was an Instant Expert. Any weaker, and I'd think they were vastly overstating her qualifications ("she's one smart little girl" quoth Genya).

Quote:
Yes, I'm aware that the fanbase is super ambivalent to actual relationships happening. But refusing to bite the bullet has definitely caused some internal bleeding too, as we have nothing now. It's fine for me, for I don't mind strong female leads never getting into a relationship and focusing on her carreer (Really, women aren't just bred for marriage ffs) but it can definitely hurt many others with diffrent preferences.
Actually, I'd agree with you here, too. Far too often, I feel women in a series NEED to have the romance angle thrust upon them. No matter how many males and females are in a series, there seems to be some unspoken rule that all the females must be paired up, but it is okay for some guys to remain single. In that light, I actually enjoy seeing Nanoha as a single mother. Putting her into a relationship with either Yuuno or Fate, I think would ruin that, and give the impression that being a single parent isn't something you can do. I think as a single mother, Nanoha gives people a good role model in that regard. And I recognize that the series isn't about romantic relationships at all.

So I understand that nothing will happen, and I am actually fine with that. I just understand the dynamics behind the decisions, too.

Quote:
It's funny that you bring up Arisa and Suzuka. In the grand scheme of things, they don't seem to matter. But in reality, they are huge. Those small interactions are critical to building character. This is why I consider them to be good, functioning characters. They really don't get that much important screentime, but they make it matter. And StrikerS forgetting them is unforgivable. It would have taken all of 5 minutes and helps restablish continuity, and that things that happen actually mean something.
Indeed. I mean, we did get a strikers sound stage where they went to Earth, and the Forwards met Arisa and Suzuka who hosted them. But I hate seeing anyone tossed on the bus, so if it were me, I would have done my damnedest to get them in StrikerS, in at least a support role. But they needed to go, because otherwise Nanoha might have turned to them, instead of Fate. They were an obstacle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Sadly, it's not anything that they actually use again. Have we seen or heard anything more from Orussia, since?
There are tons of worlds out there. I suppose it is a personal choice, but... do you want to return to Orussia, or see the other worlds out there? Given Tsuzuki's hard on for expanding the universe, I can understand him fleshing out his universe. But given Orussia's status as being involved in a civil war, I can't see it getting involved in the grand scheme of the universe anytime soon.

Quote:
That's an... interesting claim.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Fate as a character, though I do agree that the writers have not used her well. ESPECIALLY in regards to giving her more screentime than strictly necessary.

The Lotus Eater Dream in the Reinforce Battle was... well, did it really need to be there? They wasted a perfect opportunity to use a Lotus Eater lost logia in a later plot; it's not like they needed to wrap up "the adoption" subplot in that season. And was it even necessary for advancing that subplot?
My feelings on Fate are in a bit of a conflict. On one hand, I do like the development she has gotten, and I like her as a character. But on the other, I can see how the limited time we have was spent on her, when it could have been spent on others who needed it more. The lotus eater dream in the A's movie, for example, didn't need to be there, and could have been removed. She got extra focus during the first movie, when that could have been used to explain and develop Nanoha and her family more. Erio and Caro seemingly exist just for Fate, and even Sette got downgraded.

And I agree with you that it is the writer's fault if some characters aren't getting enough development. If you bring a character in, and we are supposed to accept them as a main instead of secondary, then you have a duty to develop them sufficiently.

Quote:
Not that Ixpellia makes much sense as a character or plot device, of course.

Spoiler for Lots of text:
You kinda hit at the why above, for why she can't control them. She was developed as a weapon, and it's easy enough to realize that they wanted someone else to control that weapon. If you modify someone to be able to produce an army, that person could then turn on you if they had control of the army they produced.

I think Keroko mentioned something once before, a theory about how that, despite the Sankt Kaiser being a leader and controller of the cradle, things seem to be set up in such a way as to allow someone else to control the Kaiser. In essence, not giving the "leader" a choice.

As for how she got to Midchilda, well, it doesn't look as if Gallea won the war. So if they knew they were losing, and Ixpellia went to sleep, then moving her off Gallea and hiding her on another planet, would make sense. Toredia found her and made some mariage, but it appears as if he hid her underneath Marine Garden before his death, since all Runessa could do was utilize the mariage that had been produced. Why he hid her there, I have no idea. Just probably one of his secret areas, I guess.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:01   Link #289
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
IMO putting Hayate in command did her character a disservice.

So yea... it's not always about bulk in screentime.
No, it's not solely about screentime. It's about screencontent.

Which is really the problem with Hayate; putting her in charge wasn't the problem. It's how little they had her DO as a leader while she was on-screen.

(Or, for that matter, while she was off-screen.)

They could have put anyone other than Hayate in charge, and that character would have been just as badly handled.


Quote:
And really, Fate's development in StrikerS wasn't that impressive either. Ultimately, it's Nanoha that comes out the stronger.
Yes. Because Nanoha's character arc was becoming a mother, which was helped by actually spending time with the girl she was going to adopt, and by having a duel with that girl in which Nanoha declares that she will be Vivio's mother, and demonstrates how far she's willing to go to get Vivio back.

The part about Vivio trying to stand on her own, and Nanoha rushing to catch her anyway, was a great touch on both of their arcs.

By contrast, Fate never really spent any time with Erio or Caro, who also didn't really get screen time to focus on their character arcs. Which is a shame, because "Did I really only adopt these kids to use them as weapons" would have been a great plot, and an excellent contrast against Jail's own treatement of his daughters, Lutecia, and Vivio.

Not to mention Jail's own plans for Caro and Erio, which likewise never got developed.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:03   Link #290
Sansker
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
No, I'm pretty sure it's you.

After all, the Sound Stages are the reason that Cinque managed to avoid the same fate that befell Tre, Uno, Quattro and Sette with them in prison...

Not to mention that Sette is undergoing rehab right now to fix what Quattro did to her...

There's Dieci, the first of the Numbers to feel remorse over what she was doing when she looked at Vivio...

Not to mention Nove felt worried that she and her sisters were going to be treated like nothing more than weapons when all was said and done, which was why she refused to give up against Teana until the end...

Or how Wendi flat out said she wanted to just have fun, blow stuff up and just go wherever Nove was going, since they were only a few months apart.

Then there's Otto and Deed, a couple of chatterboxes that have no problem with teasing their older sisters.

Sein's fun, perverted and a bit immature, not to mention that she gets teased a lot by her other sisters...

Cinque and Tre both worried about Sette's development and were wondering what they could do to fix what Quattro did to her (Sette).

Uno's snarky and pretty good with a clipper and helped keep the others in line.

And Due wasn't anyone special, surely Jail didn't ask for a bottle of wine to give her a burial after her death, now did he?

And there certainly haven't been scenes of the N2R group adjusting to family life with a father.

Nope, we must all be looking into too much from too little.
No, Nanya, is the way we see things. I just sense the Numbers for what I see: a large group of boring females with nothing going on and that just end in the big happy family or in jail with Jail. Just because they show something means I can relate or care about them. First half of them really are boring and their interaction donít bring any joy or give them actual deepness. You are making a big deal of the Numbers, and they are not that much.

They barely make any effort to be something in the anime, to the point I was making just how they were just look alike from the good ones. And really all those things you say about them are not present in the story or help in any way to develop something. In the end they are just there to be kick, befriend and then part of the family. I sure as hell have problems trying to telling them apart if it wasnít because they had their names made out of numbers. You see you mention a lot of things that donít really matter or that I should care because every single one of them are boring as hell. Tre, Sette, Cinque, Uno, Otto, and Deed were just serious. Wendy and Sein were happy. Nove was angry, Quattro was evil, Dieci is not that evil, and Due dies. There you have their roles.

Really the rest was not in the anime, so I am is not really important and overall makes their characters no much more of what they are: a bunch of people that is there to fight the good guys. And when characters look more to me as characters than actual people is because they are just roles.

Again like Hayate. She doesnít really does anything in particular to affect the plot. She is nice to the Wolkenritter but to be fair others could be nice to her. She decides to not take the sad ending of the book but others could do the same. You see the reason why I say that is because Hayate doesnít have much of a personality or a character in Aís. She is nice, good and likes the Wolkenritter that was all she needed to. So really she falls as a plot device.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:04   Link #291
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Or interested to see the same thing over and over again, as with Fate and the Testarossa household in general.

And it's not first impressions alone; it's also the last impression, or the whole impression that a viewer is left with by the end of the story.


After finishing Final Fantasy 6, you have a much different and stronger impression of Kefka than you did at the beginning of the game.

Closer to home, we all have a much different impression of Runessa at the end of SSX than we did after her first scene.

Closer still: Nanoha was a very different character in the first couple of episodes. While more than willing to help someone and jump into danger to do so, she wasn't so keen on magic or combat.

By the end of the series, Nanoha has developed into a girl who loves magical combat to the point that she's voluntarily going through Training From Hell, and will eventually decide to seek a career as a Magical Combat Instructor.

That's the last impression, which is different from the first.



That's what the First Season's sound-stages were for.


The last impression has little relevance if the character has already crashed prior to that. For instance, most peoples opinion of Kirino are incapable of being anything but negative at this point.

As for Nanoha, she changed because she was confronted with a rival, and she was effectively the only real character of the series until then. Nevertheless I did not have a distinct dislike for her as I did with a lot of other characters from the series. Even during those first few episodes. Which were hampered by episodal monster of the week scenarios. No character in the franchise had so little screen time that they were not given the time to garner a fan base, unless they were truly minor. Heck, you don't even need good characterization so long as you have a likable personality. Say what you will, but some characters walk away with this franchise because of the poor likability of the others as well as the masses of new characters thrown in every season. The Nanoha franchise only ever truly had two main characters -- Nanoha and Fate. It's not like Fate magically appeared one day and started to steal everyones screen time. She was there before them. And to note, as far as total screen time goes, I'm certain Nanoha has more overall.

Side note: Yes, I know there is Yuuno, but by the end of the first season it was already obvious where the series was heading.

Quote:
That's what the First Season's sound-stages were for.
A small minority of people actually listen to those.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:08   Link #292
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
A small minority of people actually listen to those.
A small minority in the WEST listen to those, Demi.

Japan LOVES its Sound Stage Radio Dramas, so people DO listen to them over there.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:12   Link #293
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
The last impression has little relevance if the character has already crashed prior to that. For instance, most peoples opinion of Kirino are incapable of being anything but negative at this point.

As for Nanoha, she changed because she was confronted with a rival, and she was effectively the only real character of the series until then. Nevertheless I did not have a distinct dislike for her as I did with a lot of other characters from the series. Even during those first few episodes. Which were hampered by episodal monster of the week scenarios. No character in the franchise had so little screen time that they were not given the time to garner a fan base, unless they were truly minor. Heck, you don't even need good characterization so long as you have a likable personality. Say what you will, but some characters walk away with this franchise because of the poor likability of the others as well as the masses of new characters thrown in every season. The Nanoha franchise only ever truly had two main characters -- Nanoha and Fate. It's not like Fate magically appeared one day and started to steal everyones screen time. She was there before them. And to note, as far as total screen time goes, I'm certain Nanoha has more overall.

Side note: Yes, I know there is Yuuno, but by the end of the first season it was already obvious where the series was heading.



A small minority of people actually listen to those.
Probably also by being alone in the house and unable to help.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:16   Link #294
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No, Nanya, is the way we see things. I just sense the Numbers for what I see: a large group of boring females with nothing going on and that just end in the big happy family or in jail with Jail. Just because they show something means I can relate or care about them. First half of them really are boring and their interaction don’t bring any joy or give them actual deepness. You are making a big deal of the Numbers, and they are not that much.

They barely make any effort to be something in the anime, to the point I was making just how they were just look alike from the good ones. And really all those things you say about them are not present in the story or help in any way to develop something. In the end they are just there to be kick, befriend and then part of the family. I sure as hell have problems trying to telling them apart if it wasn’t because they had their names made out of numbers. You see you mention a lot of things that don’t really matter or that I should care because every single one of them are boring as hell.
You really want to do this?

Okay then. Let's do this then.

You want to apply that to the Numbers?

Quite frankly, you can apply it to EVERYONE in the series then.

Amy, Chrono, Lindy and Fate? Boring group that has nothing major going on and are boring and become a happy family.

The Wolkenritter with Hayate? They're not worth anything to the plot other than to be there, get beaten up and befriended, then move on in the story.

Einhart? No personality there at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Again like Hayate. She doesn’t really does anything in particular to affect the plot. She is nice to the Wolkenritter but to be fair others could be nice to her. She decides to not take the sad ending of the book but others could do the same.
Yes, because other masters being nice to the Wolkenritter turned out so well, didn't it? I mean, it's not like the Book was unstoppable and regenerated and killed everyone and wiped the Wolkenritter's memories each time, right?

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Really the rest was not in the anime, so I am is not really important
And, Sansker, you fail at being a Nanoha fan if you don't realize that the series uses MULTIPLE sources of information, that is, the manga, the sound stages AND the anime.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:19   Link #295
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Nanya.... Watch your blood pressure....

And I believe we got a follower of Troll-zama here... don't get too baited.

he's most likely looking for attention, that he didn't got from his own parents/relatives at home.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:19   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
And, Sansker, you fail at being a Nanoha fan if you don't realize that the series uses MULTIPLE sources of information, that is, the manga, the sound stages AND the anime.
Actually, he fails as an anime fan in general if he only looks at the anime only.

Even series like Bleach and Naruto have other things than just the manga and anime, like Official Data Book and the like.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:26   Link #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with Fate as a character, though I do agree that the writers have not used her well. ESPECIALLY in regards to giving her more screentime than strictly necessary.

The Lotus Eater Dream in the Reinforce Battle was... well, did it really need to be there? They wasted a perfect opportunity to use a Lotus Eater lost logia in a later plot; it's not like they needed to wrap up "the adoption" subplot in that season. And was it even necessary for advancing that subplot?
I would completely disagree.

There was no doubt that Fate was integral to season 1. There's a reason why the most notable battle was with Fate while there was not much of a final showdown with Precia. Season 1 was about Nanoha's discovery of the road to self betterment, while helping Fate get back to this path. Thus, examining the mentality of both was critical to making the story work. Granted the movie did fuck up in this area, but if we go series, Fate's time in season 1 is not unwarranted.

It would be ludicrous to claim Fate dominated or took up too much screentime in A's either. She was working more with Nanoha, and trying to be like her. But the wolkies received the core development. Now when you get to StrikerS, yes, that's when they didn't know what to do with her and caused problems. But that's not really specific to her.

The Lotus Eater Dream while is a matter of pacing is frequently overstated as a way of saying Fate has more screentime. If you really wanted to blame Fate for something, well, I'm just going to point you to ugh... Vivio and that whole dual mama thing. And that's still pretty marginal.

In A's though, I rarely hear about people complaining about underdevelopment, since pretty much everyone got to play a decent role of the story. In fact, if you're going for that section, the highlight to me was Nanoha throwing herself against an unassailable Reinforce while Nanoha worked from the outside and Fate working from the inside to try and put up a fight. And that really just fits of their personalities so utterly well.

Besides defining her personality, and yes I think the foster parents thing was a bit undercooked, it represents a change in Fate's character that might have been insuated in early A's but not really concrete yet. It's that she's become more independent and concerned about her own hopes and desires. This is a far contrast from Season 1 Fate who was extremely needy and couldn't live without Precia, and arguably she kinda just jumped over to Lindy and Nanoha for dependence. So it's at that point where she finally put away the martyr act and not go "well, I wasn't good enough, and my little sister won't becoming back"

Could it have been more concise? Sure, but honestly the tail end of A's actually could have easily filled up with more stuff anyways. It's not like StrikerS where everyone was scrambling just to come up with any semblance of a background.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:30   Link #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No, Nanya, is the way we see things. I just sense the Numbers for what I see: a large group of boring females with nothing going on and that just end in the big happy family or in jail with Jail. Just because they show something means I can relate or care about them. First half of them really are boring and their interaction don’t bring any joy or give them actual deepness. You are making a big deal of the Numbers, and they are not that much.

They barely make any effort to be something in the anime, to the point I was making just how they were just look alike from the good ones. And really all those things you say about them are not present in the story or help in any way to develop something. In the end they are just there to be kick, befriend and then part of the family. I sure as hell have problems trying to telling them apart if it wasn’t because they had their names made out of numbers. You see you mention a lot of things that don’t really matter or that I should care because every single one of them are boring as hell. Tre, Sette, Cinque, Uno, Otto, and Deed were just serious. Wendy and Sein were happy. Nove was angry, Quattro was evil, Dieci is not that evil, and Due dies. There you have their roles.
If you have trouble telling them apart, then you haven't been paying much attention to the series (suggest you read the StrikerS manga again, as well as watch the series again). Now, I'll grant that to someone just watching StrikerS, coming off of A's, they do throw a lot of characters at you so it can be hard to keep track of them. It's not necessarily the cyborgs themselves, just the load of characters. Had they reused Arisa and Suzuka, cut out people like Mariel and Griffith, and perhaps pared down the cyborgs by a few, it might have made things easier to follow.

Dieci, despite seemingly like she was bad early on, developed into being unsure about where they were going. Nove wanted to see what kind of person their "king" was. As the series progressed, we saw that some of the cyborgs cared about their sisters more than others.

There were quite a few characters, which does make it difficult to keep track of some of them. But that doesn't mean there wasn't development, or at least subtle differences to each cyborg. And that doesn't mean that we only saw one side of their personality, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Heck, you don't even need good characterization so long as you have a likable personality. Say what you will, but some characters walk away with this franchise because of the poor likability of the others as well as the masses of new characters thrown in every season. The Nanoha franchise only ever truly had two main characters -- Nanoha and Fate. It's not like Fate magically appeared one day and started to steal everyones screen time. She was there before them. And to note, as far as total screen time goes, I'm certain Nanoha has more overall.

Side note: Yes, I know there is Yuuno, but by the end of the first season it was already obvious where the series was heading.
You aren't taking a few things into account. One of the things that Tsuzuki noticed with magical girl shows were that older males were watching them, as well as the younger females they were initially aimed at. That's why Nanoha became the series it is, because he wanted to capitalize on the male watchers. Shonen series are one of the best-selling genre in Japan, too. When you have lots of Japanese male otaku, and you have females in the lead, you learn to write for those males. As I mentioned before, that means there are some rules you have to follow.

That's where your likeability comes from. It is no accident that the females are the more likable ones, because it is mainly Japanese male otaku watching. That's why Yuuno and Chrono are shipped off. I'm just damned surprised Erio and Vice were in it at all, but Vice has since disappeared and Erio is in a minor role(and no "threat" to the mains). Even Griffith is gone. The kind of toxicity that leads to things like this, and the AKB48 rules, is just something I can't support. If I come across as a little anti-yuri, it is because I see the harm it is causing. The current fanaticism that can't take the idea of a popular female getting together with a male. I don't mind yuri if that's where the plot is heading and it makes sense for the characters. But if the very plot is denied because of fanaticism, then I begin to have a problem with it.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:33   Link #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'll say that, given Hayate's magical style and her relative lack of close range capability, she pretty much was only suited for command. If she had been given close range capability, added to her other strengths, fans would have screamed OP; she would have put Nanoha to shame. Given her power, it would be difficult to let her shine in a combat role, without stealing the show
An alternative would have been to NOT give her overwhelming power in any regard; rather to only give her potential roughly equal to Fate and Nanoha, so that they could be the trio that the ending of A's suggested.

Did they not do that with the Materials, with Dearche being no more powerful than Stern or Levi?


Quote:
But what I think people wanted to see, was her in combat, kicking ass, which seems to be about the only metric some might judge a character.
For me, it's because the front-line combat characters are usually the only ones who get main character treatment.

As a command character with lopsided combat ability, it was easy to reduce Hayate's role to practically nothing... and perhaps even natural to expect, especially from Seven Arcs.

I'd be entirely content with Commander Nukes-A-Lot if she had been handled better.

But as it is, I'm just not sold on how Hayate's powers shook out after A's. Could she had possibly ended up with a different talent-set that would have fit her better?
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:34   Link #300
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I'm just going to throw my own discussion into the middle of this .

StrikerS really had a lot of characters who didn't get nearly the development needed. Caro and Erio were just there and then suddenly they had a rivalry going on with Lutecia....completely with nicknames. Did Fate pass along some secret info off-screen that giving your enemy a short nickname is a good battle tactic ? Of course it only got worse when Erio's great rival for the series was a summoned humanoid bug....Lightning squad really didn't get much going on.

Really think when you have a cast that large need to plan out better, narrow the focus, or just have a ton more episodes. Have to give StrikerS credit for one thing though, if it wasn't for wanting to check that series out might have missed the first two seasons entirely .

But even saying that, would like to see another animated series from this going forward. I mean sure hunting down subbed sound stages are nice, and the mangas out there are fairly good as well. But would still enjoy all the things that make anime enjoyable to watch.
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