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Old 2013-02-18, 22:35   Link #301
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I'd be entirely content with Commander Nukes-A-Lot if she had been handled better.
yeah, that's kind of the point, for someone called "Sir-Nukes-A-Lot" she only has used her nuking powers like what ...four times?
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:38   Link #302
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
yeah, that's kind of the point, for someone called "Sir-Nukes-A-Lot" she only has used her nuking powers like what ...four times?
But why use a nuke many times?

US only used it a few times.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:40   Link #303
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
But why use a nuke many times?

US only used it a few times.
The U.S. is the only country to use a nuke on another country...

Twice.

Doesn't stop the world from blowing up nukes every other weekend to test them out it seems like.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:43   Link #304
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
The U.S. is the only country to use a nuke on another country...

Twice.

Doesn't stop the world from blowing up nukes every other weekend to test them out it seems like.
Hayate doesn't nuke often though.

Or it's probably Japan's trauma to nukes...
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:45   Link #305
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
An alternative would have been to NOT give her overwhelming power in any regard; rather to only give her potential roughly equal to Fate and Nanoha, so that they could be the trio that the ending of A's suggested.
Well, as archonwing mentioned, I like the difference in powers, in an almost RPG-esque mode. I don't really wanna see them as copy/pastas of each other. Fate being the melee-oriented one, Nanoha the main mid-range cannon powered one, and that would leave Hayate to be the long-range bombardment one.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:46   Link #306
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You aren't taking a few things into account. One of the things that Tsuzuki noticed with magical girl shows were that older males were watching them, as well as the younger females they were initially aimed at. That's why Nanoha became the series it is, because he wanted to capitalize on the male watchers. Shonen series are one of the best-selling genre in Japan, too. When you have lots of Japanese male otaku, and you have females in the lead, you learn to write for those males. As I mentioned before, that means there are some rules you have to follow.

That's where your likeability comes from. It is no accident that the females are the more likable ones, because it is mainly Japanese male otaku watching. That's why Yuuno and Chrono are shipped off. I'm just damned surprised Erio and Vice were in it at all, but Vice has since disappeared and Erio is in a minor role(and no "threat" to the mains). Even Griffith is gone. The kind of toxicity that leads to things like this, and the AKB48 rules, is just something I can't support. If I come across as a little anti-yuri, it is because I see the harm it is causing. The current fanaticism that can't take the idea of a popular female getting together with a male. I don't mind yuri if that's where the plot is heading and it makes sense for the characters. But if the very plot is denied because of fanaticism, then I begin to have a problem with it.
I agree with that, but it's just another part of appealing to the masses. There is nothing wrong with this, however. It's how the series is able to profit and continue way past where it's prime should have been. However, I'm quite confident Tsuzuki had an idea where he was going with the first season. I think he intended to appeal to the otaku from the start. Or at least I think he had no intention of making it a shoujo which is what the vast majority of magical girl anime are. Maybe not so much recently.

Anyways, that is how all market formulas work. If It's not what you're looking for, you're probably better off finding something that is...since the series is unlikely to chance from it.

There is Force...but I have strong doubts on whether it will be animated. Was probably Tsuzukis attempt at testing new waters.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:51   Link #307
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
The last impression has little relevance if the character has already crashed prior to that. For instance, most peoples opinion of Kirino are incapable of being anything but negative at this point.
There's some truth to this, but it's not absolute, especially when you factor opinions into whether or not a character is irredeemable.

I will agree that the first impression needs to be handled well; the character doesn't even need to be impressive or interesting at first, but only so long as this is intentional and part of the planned development.

I don't know about "My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute" (having never watched it, or read it), so I cannot comment on how long Kirino has been in the Scrappy Heap or how impossible I feel it is to rescue her from it. (And my own opinion won't necessarily reflect the popular one.)


I do wonder about the relevance of your comment to the Nanoha franchise, though.

Is there a character that you feel had a poor first impression? I can't actually think of one.


Nove had a great first impression; it only turned out to be bad in hindsight, after the writers decided that she wasn't The Rival to Subaru and Ginga at all. Instead, each of them easily outclassed Nove on her own and forced her to work with a team. More, Nove got relegated to a TEAM that faced off against Teana. In the end, Subaru and Ginga served as each other's rival.


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Side note: Yes, I know there is Yuuno, but by the end of the first season it was already obvious where the series was heading.
Not really. There was Nanoha and Yuuno's scene where they worked together to seal the Garden of Time's generator. And before that, their bonding scene in trading stories of their pasts, and the promise to have more such talks in the future.

And before that, when Yuuno wanted to leave Nanoha behind, but she refused to let him go. Which was before Nanoha had really resolved to pursue an understanding with Fate.

And the moment where Yuuno helped Nanoha go save Fate from herself. And when he helped Nanoha bring Fate up to the bridge, and then helped Nanoha catch Fate when she fainted.


"Where the writer wants to take a story" and "where it makes sense for a story to go" are not always the same thing.

Yes, the writers appeared to want to reduce Yuuno in the story while increasing the time that Nanoha and Fate spent together. This wasn't even a bad decision.

Exactly how they did that, and to what extent, are a different matter.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:52   Link #308
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Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
Actually, he fails as an anime fan in general if he only looks at the anime only.

Even series like Bleach and Naruto have other things than just the manga and anime, like Official Data Book and the like.
I think it really does not work if one has to dig through extra material to really enjoy a series. Supplements should work as supplements. And really, Yuno, and the Earth crew getting focus on them doesn't stop people from complaining about their lack of focus in the series proper-- it's the intent that sends the wrong message, that some characters are afterthoughts, and I don't find that cool at all. Sure, I am not their biggest fan, but I know there's quite a few Yuuno fans that are hardly satisfied...


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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Got two people to respond to, so gonna try and pare down what I respond to so this isn't super long. :P
Yea what is with this board?


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Oh, I do, too. I like series where it simply isn't a matter of power level ala DBZ. But one where tactics comes into play. It's one of the reasons I like this series. That's why it is interest that Hayate, the person with the largest destructive power, isn't the main heroine, and is actually in a command role instead. Great way to subvert that particular shonen cliche.
That actually does have validity. I'm just asking for the series's supply of cool to be spread more properly.

Though this is partially because I am playing an AOE long ranged heavy damage support character in Guild Wars 2 lately, that I am more noticing Hayate getting shafted and would rather not have said role derided and lacking of screentime. It's there! just more subtle. And it's definitely not boring. (I also have minions that keep getting owned, and use it as a perfect excuse to tease Aki)

All and all, Nanoha seems to have used RPG tropes for combat roles, and it has worked well.


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I think one thing to keep in mind is, Hayate is still only 19. :P I don't exactly expect her to become Lelouch Lamperouge. What we got, I feel is a nice middle ground. You can tell she has potential, and is starting to get her feet wet... but she's not a chess master yet. She's got room to develop. And on that note, I enjoy seeing that development of hers in Force. She's getting better at knowing the score and reacting to it, although she still makes mistakes. The risks she takes aren't always guaranteed to turn out right.

So I think she pulls off "young commander with potential getting her feet wet" fairly well. If she were any stronger (intelligence-wise), I'd feel she was an Instant Expert. Any weaker, and I'd think they were vastly overstating her qualifications ("she's one smart little girl" quoth Genya).
This is particularly hard to analyze since anime is so fond of putting teenagers in high positions and then the TSAB employs people of any age. Though a position of command tends to carry higher responsibility and significance and it needs to be something that really needs to be struggled for. Chrono sure was young back then but I felt he earned his due more than Hayate being put in such a high position, even though she's been there for quite a while.

The more common tactic would be to promote a character somewhere in the middle of the series. One really good example would be Misato from Evangelion, as it gave more of a sense of character progression as she got promoted after a number of key successes, even if one would say the ranks are arbitrary.

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Actually, I'd agree with you here, too. Far too often, I feel women in a series NEED to have the romance angle thrust upon them. No matter how many males and females are in a series, there seems to be some unspoken rule that all the females must be paired up, but it is okay for some guys to remain single. In that light, I actually enjoy seeing Nanoha as a single mother. Putting her into a relationship with either Yuuno or Fate, I think would ruin that, and give the impression that being a single parent isn't something you can do. I think as a single mother, Nanoha gives people a good role model in that regard. And I recognize that the series isn't about romantic relationships at all.
Yea, really. Don't you just hate it when people are like "Yea this woman is strong and independent. When is she going to settle down so she can be non-threatening to us"? It just makes my blood boil considering my favorite characters are considered by many to be objects or "waifus". Really. >.>
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So I understand that nothing will happen, and I am actually fine with that. I just understand the dynamics behind the decisions, too.
Sure, but don't you think they could stop it with the teasing?

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Indeed. I mean, we did get a strikers sound stage where they went to Earth, and the Forwards met Arisa and Suzuka who hosted them. But I hate seeing anyone tossed on the bus, so if it were me, I would have done my damnedest to get them in StrikerS, in at least a support role. But they needed to go, because otherwise Nanoha might have turned to them, instead of Fate. They were an obstacle.
Only an obstacle to the unimaginative. We can look at stuff like Mai-HiME which while wasn't that strong on the world building but I felt juggled its large cast with great precision. Yes the lead 3 ate up most of the screen time, but it managed to get everyone in it even with tons of fluff. The more recent Fate/Zero did this very well. Although screentime technically would be a limited resource, I don't think it's as bad as some would put it.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:57   Link #309
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
yeah, that's kind of the point, for someone called "Sir-Nukes-A-Lot" she only has used her nuking powers like what ...four times?
"My father liked to say that the best weapon is one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree.

"I like to think the best weapon is one you only have to use ONCE."

--Tony Stark


But seriously, Nanoha only used Starlight Breaker once in the original season. The rest of the time, she used her other talents.

Even if Hayate were a main character, she doesn't need to use her nuking power AT ALL if the story doesn't call for it. In which case, it's important that her other abilities are able to carry the day.

If her abilities as a commander were not sufficient, then either she shouldn't have been a character, or she should have been a secondary character.

Well, she really was just a secondary character. Which wouldn't have been bad, except she wasn't interesting enough in that role. Too much tea time, not enough commanding and strategizing.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:02   Link #310
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
That's where your likeability comes from. It is no accident that the females are the more likable ones, because it is mainly Japanese male otaku watching. That's why Yuuno and Chrono are shipped off. I'm just damned surprised Erio and Vice were in it at all, but Vice has since disappeared and Erio is in a minor role(and no "threat" to the mains). Even Griffith is gone. The kind of toxicity that leads to things like this, and the AKB48 rules, is just something I can't support. If I come across as a little anti-yuri, it is because I see the harm it is causing. The current fanaticism that can't take the idea of a popular female getting together with a male. I don't mind yuri if that's where the plot is heading and it makes sense for the characters. But if the very plot is denied because of fanaticism, then I begin to have a problem with it.
This.


I also agreed with the rest of Kaijo's post, of course.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:03   Link #311
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Well, SLB is a situational attack that isn't meant for common use. In skirmishes, it'd be a terrible skill to use.

It's only effective after the battle has gone on for a while, otherwise not enough energy will have been collected in the nearby area and it'd be quite the dud.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:05   Link #312
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Well, SLB is a situational attack that isn't meant for common use. In skirmishes, it'd be a terrible skill to use.
Most of Hayate's attacks are similar, since they have a wide strike zone which will affect her allies as well as her targets.

It's worse when the target area is residential, and magical enough that it cannot be protected with Temporal Shift Fields.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:07   Link #313
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
You really want to do this?

Okay then. Let's do this then.

You want to apply that to the Numbers?

Quite frankly, you can apply it to EVERYONE in the series then.

Amy, Chrono, Lindy and Fate? Boring group that has nothing major going on and are boring and become a happy family.

The Wolkenritter with Hayate? They're not worth anything to the plot other than to be there, get beaten up and befriended, then move on in the story.

Einhart? No personality there at all.



Yes, because other masters being nice to the Wolkenritter turned out so well, didn't it? I mean, it's not like the Book was unstoppable and regenerated and killed everyone and wiped the Wolkenritter's memories each time, right?



And, Sansker, you fail at being a Nanoha fan if you don't realize that the series uses MULTIPLE sources of information, that is, the manga, the sound stages AND the anime.

I say the same but again the roles you talk about are just side characters not antagonism and in the end it comes down that I don't care or the anime does give me a reason to care. You see the first seasons told a solid story without the extra materials that just come to add more to it. So why StrikerS needs them to complete the story itself?

The Wolkenritter are the ones that take the show from Aís. You see the idea is that in the end they show more passion to it than Hayate and really all they need was a reason to start hunting the Linker Cores to fight Nanoha and Fate who also help to save them. I mean Hayate did help as well but her role is easy take away.

You see you put Fate there but she was a main character, she was show as antagonism and them give motives, back story and she grows as a character. Which is far more I can tell from the Numbers who not only change after the story was done but off camera.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:11   Link #314
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I agree with that, but it's just another part of appealing to the masses. There is nothing wrong with this, however. It's how the series is able to profit and continue way past where it's prime should have been. However, I'm quite confident Tsuzuki had an idea where he was going with the first season. I think he intended to appeal to the otaku from the start. Or at least I think he had no intention of making it a shoujo which is what the vast majority of magical girl anime are. Maybe not so much recently.
I'd have to disagree with you here. :P Take a look again at how red and angry Yuuno turned when Nanoha smiled at Chrono. At how multiple people recognize Yuuno has feelings for Nanoha in both the anime and manga. It was fairly clear that, early on, Tsuzuki seemed to be nudging them that way. He just shelved those particular plans after seeing how fans reacted to Fate. Hell, consider Vivio's extreme defensive skills with the Saint's Armor, and remember Yuuno's skills with barriers. It's just a guess, but I'd say Vivio was probably the child that he intended for the two of them to have. A child borne of someone with high offensive powers, and someone with high defensive powers, would be a bit of a monster. Hence the large time skip. He just scuttled those plans after A's.

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Anyways, that is how all market formulas work. If It's not what you're looking for, you're probably better off finding something that is...since the series is unlikely to chance from it.
Well, considering none of the mains will be paired up, it's something both of us will have to live with.

Quote:
There is Force...but I have strong doubts on whether it will be animated. Was probably Tsuzukis attempt at testing new waters.
I like him testing new waters, and I actually like Force, so I'm happy with where things are going. I would like to see more males in the series(non-paired if you must), but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Sure, but don't you think they could stop it with the teasing?
Hell no! They still have Fate fanboys with cash to milk! Gotta keep just hinting and teasing until they all get tired.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:12   Link #315
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I'll let him go for Gears of Destiny and Battle of Aces.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:16   Link #316
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'd have to disagree with you here. :P Take a look again at how red and angry Yuuno turned when Nanoha smiled at Chrono. At how multiple people recognize Yuuno has feelings for Nanoha in both the anime and manga. It was fairly clear that, early on, Tsuzuki seemed to be nudging them that way.
Yeah, that too.


Quote:
He just shelved those particular plans after seeing how fans reacted to Fate. Hell, consider Vivio's extreme defensive skills with the Saint's Armor, and remember Yuuno's skills with barriers. It's just a guess, but I'd say Vivio was probably the child that he intended for the two of them to have. A child borne of someone with high offensive powers, and someone with high defensive powers, would be a bit of a monster. Hence the large time skip. He just scuttled those plans after A's.
Never considered the possibility that Vivio was an idea even as far back as the first season.

Though if she was, I imagine the one red eye was a change made after Fate/Nanoha turned out so popular. But one eye stayed green.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:16   Link #317
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I say the same but again the roles you talk about are just side characters not antagonism and in the end it comes down that I don't care or the anime does give me a reason to care. You see the first seasons told a solid story without the extra materials that just come to add more to it. So why StrikerS needs them to complete the story itself?
So all you care are the AWESUM fight between main characters and antagonists then? And that side characters mean jack shit?

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The Wolkenritter are the ones that take the show from Aís. You see the idea is that in the end they show more passion to it than Hayate and really all they need was a reason to start hunting the Linker Cores to fight Nanoha and Fate who also help to save them. I mean Hayate did help as well but her role is easy take away.

You see you put Fate there but she was a main character, she was show as antagonism and them give motives, back story and she grows as a character. Which is far more I can tell from the Numbers who not only change after the story was done but off camera.
I pull the same argument on you:

- Precia just needed someone to gather the Jewel Seed for her. It can be a clone, or she can just take in some kid from the street with talents. Actually, she can just use her drone too.

- The series also needed a Magical Girl, so any girl with a bit with magical power could have run into Yuuno and become one instead. Like say, Arisa or Suzuka. Actually, Suzuka made a bit more sense since in the original Triangle Heart 3, her family was revealed to have vampire blood. And since things didn't change much between TH3 and Nanoha, one can assume she also have it in Nanoha. Come to think of it, her reflecting that dodgeball was definitely above human.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:26   Link #318
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No, you are mistaken there. You are confusing the role with the character. And I donít say side characters mean shit, I just say there was not too much to them without that alone making them any kind of bad for their roles. Now the Numbers were not the best villains ever but that is not my point.

Besides you confuse that because I say Hayate can be change other two can be change that easy. You see here is the deal: Nanoha and Fate fill their roles but also gave us their on thoughts about it, get invested and care because of their own reasons. Grow thanks to everything the face and came out as good friends after spending so much together. The story is construct around them and they are the protagonist of those moments. Is not just any magical girl, is Nanoha, is not just any clone is Fate.

Now I say that doesnít apply to Hayate mostly because at first she is sitting there without anything about her being special or she showing passion. Even when she is about to die we never really see things from how she feels now with a family and we focus more on how the Wolkenritter sense this new life with Hayate just accepting them and let them in without almost any question. Again the ones reacting and changing are the Wolkenritter and the one just passive going for the ride is Hayate so really her role is easy to exchange with others without meaning she is bad at is, just that she is kind of less intense and that is why in de end I think we can move her out and not lose that much, maybe make her a little older. What matters is the Wolkenritter growing and caring enough to act.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:38   Link #319
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Never considered the possibility that Vivio was an idea even as far back as the first season.
Ya never know. If he intended to shack them up and timeskip 10+ years, I wouldn't put it past him to at least think about possible kids for the next generation. I had kids picked out for my Crisis series when I was writing the first one, even though it will be awhile before I get to them.

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Though if she was, I imagine the one red eye was a change made after Fate/Nanoha turned out so popular. But one eye stayed green.
Yeah, since Yuuno has green eyes. We got the blue eye in Einhart instead.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:48   Link #320
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
It would be ludicrous to claim Fate dominated or took up too much screentime in A's either.
I never made that claim. I only complained about the Lotus Eater Dream.

And not because it gave Fate more screentime. I like what it did with Fate.

I complain about the Lotus Eater Dream because it's just too convenient for Reinforce to have the power to completely defeat one of her enemies so easily, and then for her to not use that same power against Nanoha.

Also, that Reinforce used it at all, given that she was supposedly trying to kill them both for Hayate's revenge.

I complain because it was used as a ham-handed way to force Nanoha to fight Reinforce alone... right after Yuuno and Arf were also forced to leave, even when I feel they both could have contributed just fine as support.

(In fact, Yuuno --for some reason-- retreated SO FAR AWAY that when he later tries to return to the fight, he's got to fly for quite a while to make it back. Just where the hell did he go, and what was he doing?)


Heck, I've even outright said that the Lotus Eater Dream SHOULD have happened, just that it should have happened because of something else, and at a different time and place.


By itself, the content of the Lotus Eater Dream was fine (though I would have given Fate a different and more sensible reason for leaving it*). It only becomes a problem when combined with all the other times the franchise keeps returning to the Testarossa household.

The movie, the manga supplements of the movie, the second video game...

Meanwhile, there's this ferret over here that I'd REALLY LOVE to get some family/home oriented flashbacks.

Also, the Wolkenritter. We've seen some of their past, but NOTHING on their origins. Were they human, or always programs?

Barring that, some more clarity on how Belka (and the Tome!) related to Al Hazard, and how Belka related to Midchilda.



* That reason being that her REAL friends and family were outside, and if she were staying in the dream, they would miss her. Abandoning her friends to hang out with a fake sister isn't what a good, responsible friend does.
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