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Old 2013-02-18, 23:49   Link #321
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Yeah, since Yuuno has green eyes. We got the blue eye in Einhart instead.
Nanoha's is purple. Einheart has blue and purple.

Who's eyes are blue? Chrono?
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:57   Link #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Nanoha's is purple. Einheart has blue and purple.
Eh, maybe you can swing a bit of purple, but they always looked blue to me.

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Who's eyes are blue? Chrono?
Dark blue, at least to me.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:04   Link #323
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I never made that claim. I only complained about the Lotus Eater Dream.

And not because it gave Fate more screentime. I like what it did with Fate.

I complain about the Lotus Eater Dream because it's just too convenient for Reinforce to have the power to completely defeat one of her enemies so easily, and then for her to not use that same power against Nanoha.

Also, that Reinforce used it at all, given that she was supposedly trying to kill them both for Hayate's revenge.

I complain because it was used as a ham-handed way to force Nanoha to fight Reinforce alone... right after Yuuno and Arf were also forced to leave, even when I feel they both could have contributed just fine as support.

(In fact, Yuuno --for some reason-- retreated SO FAR AWAY that when he later tries to return to the fight, he's got to fly for quite a while to make it back. Just where the hell did he go, and what was he doing?)


Heck, I've even outright said that the Lotus Eater Dream SHOULD have happened, just that it should have happened because of something else, and at a different time and place.


By itself, the content of the Lotus Eater Dream was fine (though I would have given Fate a different and more sensible reason for leaving it*). It only becomes a problem when combined with all the other times the franchise keeps returning to the Testarossa household.

The movie, the manga supplements of the movie, the second video game...

Meanwhile, there's this ferret over here that I'd REALLY LOVE to get some family/home oriented flashbacks.

Also, the Wolkenritter. We've seen some of their past, but NOTHING on their origins. Were they human, or always programs?

Barring that, some more clarity on how Belka (and the Tome!) related to Al Hazard, and how Belka related to Midchilda.



* That reason being that her REAL friends and family were outside, and if she were staying in the dream, they would miss her. Abandoning her friends to hang out with a fake sister isn't what a good, responsible friend does.
Well in the end the dream was use just to have a minor arc for Fate's character. I think wasn't that bad maybe because it had a nicer feeling to it even when just force things out of proportion back outside for Nanoha.

Reinforce was really kind of not going with this plot because she already knew Nanoha and Fate were innocent really and she was just doing what the program comand her. Of course that rbings debate of how much freedom she did have and how much she knows about what was going on at the time.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:07   Link #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I never made that claim. I only complained about the Lotus Eater Dream.
You said

Quote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with Fate as a character, though I do agree that the writers have not used her well. ESPECIALLY in regards to giving her more screentime than strictly necessary.
That covers far more than that one scene.

Quote:
And not because it gave Fate more screentime. I like what it did with Fate.

I complain about the Lotus Eater Dream because it's just too convenient for Reinforce to have the power to completely defeat one of her enemies so easily, and then for her to not use that same power against Nanoha.

Also, that Reinforce used it at all, given that she was supposedly trying to kill them both for Hayate's revenge.

I complain because it was used as a ham-handed way to force Nanoha to fight Reinforce alone... right after Yuuno and Arf were also forced to leave, even when I feel they both could have contributed just fine as support.

(In fact, Yuuno --for some reason-- retreated SO FAR AWAY that when he later tries to return to the fight, he's got to fly for quite a while to make it back. Just where the hell did he go, and what was he doing?)
Granted this is something of a matter of execution, but they did fear that they would all be lost had they tried to make a stand. It's fairly enough to argue that it is a contrivance but if you want my opinion it was somewhat necessary when it comes to character introspection and exposition which takes priority. Sure you could do without it, but then this is like taking away Arisa's role with Nanoha in the movie. It does matter.




Quote:
By itself, the content of the Lotus Eater Dream was fine (though I would have given Fate a different and more sensible reason for leaving it*). It only becomes a problem when combined with all the other times the franchise keeps returning to the Testarossa household.
Yea though you can't really blame that scene for what happened later.

Quote:
Also, the Wolkenritter. We've seen some of their past, but NOTHING on their origins. Were they human, or always programs?
A spinoff would be nice, but I've never felt a need or felt like they were lacking. They're ancient machines of war, and have the look style, and enough history that I know what it entails. Going too far into it would have dampened the mystery factor at the time of A's. Now though...

And in some ways, going over more of Precia and Fate backstory in Movie 1st makes it somewhat less effective than season 1 when it comes to the mystery element. Though they obviously had different goals in mind.


Quote:
* That reason being that her REAL friends and family were outside, and if she were staying in the dream, they would miss her. Abandoning her friends to hang out with a fake sister isn't what a good, responsible friend does.
It's not. That shows that she had much to learn; and to really get over her issues with Precia and her sister.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:23   Link #325
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Where I feel Fate's preeminence had issues, is primarily in StrikerS. Caro and Erio were reduced to just her kids, and only served to reflect on what Fate had done, how Fate had progressed, and ultimately serve to give her a pep talk near the end. To that end, Jail's little speech at the end can be viewed in a more truthful meta light.

And of course, Sette was minimized because Nana has dibs on the number 7.

And then the movies, where Fate took over from Nanoha in the first movie, drowning out the supposed main character, and then in A's with several scenes that cut out other people, and forced the removal of Graham, which played a critical role in the backstory of the Harleown family, and ultimately linked them to Hayate. And Graham was the reason Hayate could live alone. Without him and his money and influence, Hayate would have been taken by the Japanese government and given to a foster family.

Yuuno, Arf, Arisa, Suzuka, Chrono, Lindy, Hayate, Erio, Caro, Sette, and even Nanoha herself, have been shafted because of the focus on Fate. One could say that is just giving the fans what they want. But it still means the story suffers as a whole, and so do the characters themselves.

I mean, we have Erio's issues with abandonment, and Caro's issues with her power and place in the world, but those are mostly glossed over. We could have had them more powerful confront those issues, the same way Teana confronts her own issues of inadequacy. But that wasn't important, because their only purpose was to play second fiddle to Fate.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:39   Link #326
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Even son in general none of the Forwards was really give too much to work with. Fate has been taking a little the spotlight? Maybe, but that is beyond being an issues considering she was a main character long before the other 4 Forwards just appear so really is more like them entering the world with not real things to do and fail to give us anything for themselves and end as Fate’s support. I will agree she tends to be focus on but Nanoha was still a major part in the movie and a second protagonist.

I really don’t think is a problem when we already handle other characters a secondary like the Harlaown family, Graham or Hayate herself in A’s. They were never the focus of the story itself and were really down play because A’s also suffers from a little too much subplots. And really why we should throw a main character to make room for other characters? Really is more like fitting their stories to help the plot and just being nice on their own.
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Old 2013-02-19, 06:21   Link #327
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And really why we should throw a main character to make room for other characters?
Because, despite being a main character, it's the secondary and side characters that flesh a universe out.

Haven't you complained, repeatedly, that there's not enough details about things or that the series shouldn't use certain characters because they do "nothing"?

Well, hint, hint, it's those secondary and side characters that gives the main character more meaning. The more useful they are, without overtaking the whole story, the better a story you get.

It's one of the reasons that the first Movie was a train wreck.

Nanoha basically goes from an interesting character to just someone who's there, who has no motivations and has no reason to be the way she is.

Really, where's Nanoha's family or her friends in that movie? Barely get any screen time (if they even appear at all) as most of the movie was meant for Fate.

Yuuno? His role got taken over by Raising Heart, thus making me wonder why he was even IN the movie in the first place. Plus they NEVER explained WHY Raising Heart had its modes pre-installed and Yuuno never used them.

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You see you put Fate there but she was a main character, she was show as antagonism and them give motives, back story and she grows as a character. Which is far more I can tell from the Numbers who not only change after the story was done but off camera.
I can say the same thing about Fate.

We don't see her changes very much, they all happen off camera.

She was sad and depressed when we saw her...

Oh look, a flashback shows that she was happy. Her change from happy to depressed happened off camera.

Or how she went from barely able to smile to being able to smile and worry a lot, that happened between S1 and A's, off-screen.

Or how she was able to grow into the person she was in StrikerS...

Happened off-screen, again.
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Old 2013-02-19, 07:28   Link #328
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Because, despite being a main character, it's the secondary and side characters that flesh a universe out.
Erm no, by definition a side (supporting) character is generally used to give an added dimension to a main character. Side characters are rarely dependent on themselves. And them taking a back seat to the main character is what this argument is about, yet it's simply the intended result of a side character.


Quote:
Haven't you complained, repeatedly, that there's not enough details about things or that the series shouldn't use certain characters because they do "nothing"?

Well, hint, hint, it's those secondary and side characters that gives the main character more meaning. The more useful they are, without overtaking the whole story, the better a story you get.
I'd be happy with side characters if I thought they were likable enough. And the Nanoha side characters do have screen time, they're just mostly not useful. They have more than enough time to actually do something significant if the writing was good enough.

Quote:
It's one of the reasons that the first Movie was a train wreck.

Nanoha basically goes from an interesting character to just someone who's there, who has no motivations and has no reason to be the way she is.

Really, where's Nanoha's family or her friends in that movie? Barely get any screen time (if they even appear at all) as most of the movie was meant for Fate.

Yuuno? His role got taken over by Raising Heart, thus making me wonder why he was even IN the movie in the first place. Plus they NEVER explained WHY Raising Heart had its modes pre-installed and Yuuno never used them.
But the movie wasn't a trainwreck, Nanya. Some things were replaced, some things were added. Yet in the end, I'm sure the movie would be the more liked of the two if given a poll. I like both, for different reasons. But I see nothing to suggest the movie was a trainwreck outside of it not progressing the way you would like it to.

Quote:
I can say the same thing about Fate.

We don't see her changes very much, they all happen off camera.

She was sad and depressed when we saw her...

Oh look, a flashback shows that she was happy. Her change from happy to depressed happened off camera.

Or how she went from barely able to smile to being able to smile and worry a lot, that happened between S1 and A's, off-screen.

Or how she was able to grow into the person she was in StrikerS...

Happened off-screen, again.
The transition from the first season to A's was a massive overhaul to her character. She went from a Tragic past, lonely childhood, unconventional upbringing and subsequent alienation from peers. Leading her to believe things are incapable of changing (interestingly enough, "Fate" actually has meaning in her life) . To who she became in A's. A somewhat shy girl with a modest persona who has a distinct fear of rejection that keeps her from speaking her mind(Except when she's with Nanoha). You notice this many times throughout the season when she is with Lindy. Like when Lindy asks what she wants to eat she passively states "anything is fine" or when Lindy tries to touch her hand when she's on the hospital bed, she flinches. And as much as some people loathe the lotus eater scene, that was also great for her development. This enable her to accept the past and move onto the future with her current friends and family. Fate tossed aside what she always dreamed of, for the life she now has in the present. That takes a great deal of courage and sacrifice, yet Fate did it. Something she would have never been able to do in the first season.

Side note: The movies back story with happy Fate was Fate before she started to face severe rejection. She has Alicias memories, remember? That personality is vastly what it would have been if things had worked out like that since the beginning. And that flashback did show the starting signs of Fate losing the eccentric personality.

As for StrikerS -- Ten year timeskip. News flash, no ones development between A's and StrikerS was on screen.

I get the fact some of you dislike the fact Fate's a main character and is thus prone to all of the assets a main character should have. But trying to pin the blame on her every time the series doesn't go your way is merely a scapegoat for the greater issues of the series.
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Old 2013-02-19, 07:55   Link #329
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Nanya, really? Almost as bad as Akiyoshi? I take offense to that.
Worse, actually. Aki at least admits when he is wrong, whereas you constantly try to shift the goalpost whenever you're about to get cornered. You should stop doing that, it makes debating with you highly annoying.

You also seem to have a problem with fact checking, and then fill those holes with your own interpretations rather than seek out actual facts. This might explain why this series keeps confusing you so much, as what actually happens is different from what you tell yourself has happened.

Lastly, the things you hate seem to be a constant pendulum. If they focus on the characters, you complain it's a waste of screentime since the characters aren't that interesting. If the focus is on the events, you complain the characters are flat and underdeveloped.

Take for example the numbers. You're complaining the numbers are underdevelopped. Partially true, as most of them haven't had much screentime (those that have have grown though) and yet when Vivid focused on Miura, developing her character, there was an endless list on complaints how they "shouldn't focus so much on her because she's not a main character."

It's these constant contradictions that annoy everyone. People aren't sure what you want out of this franchise. Personally, I think you yourself don't either.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Whoa, Hayate was with Nanoha and Fate in A's too. They all did well and were featured heavily, so you shouldn't really think they're mutually exclusive in development. Hayate didn't need that much screentime to shine and the story is basically about her. Anything that helps define the relationship between them is going to strengthen all their characters.

So what changed between A's and StrikerS? Why is the series twice as long yet Hayate cannot reserve 10 more minutes to shine? Was Fate so evil to not even waste 10 minutes of her time up? Why does the show insist on making Hayate look bad and not display at the very least more skills of being a leader, instead of just foisting her up there?

IMO putting Hayate in command did her character a disservice. You could also ask Chrono too, since he effectively got kicked upstairs. And speaking of Chrono, he always had minimal screentime yet manages to come off as a badass and leader. But you know, from what I saw on screen, it was far easier to accept Chrono in the position he got himself into. So yea... it's not always about bulk in screentime. And really, Fate's development in StrikerS wasn't that impressive either. Ultimately, it's Nanoha that comes out the stronger.
Frankly, Fate was handled terribly in StrikerS as well. She had this crisis about being a parent to Erio and Caro going on that was completely out of the picture in StrikerS. Instead, she got shoved in the Nanoha/Vivio plot just so they could create a handful of scenes that would be popular with the fans. It's not until we read the manga and listen to the sound stages that suddenly this subplot surfaces, and expands not only on Fate, but Erio and Caro as well.

Seriously, a lot of those NanoFateVivio scenes should have been the ones delegated to the sound stage, while the FateErioCaro scenes should have been in the anime.

Hayate could have gotten a lot of screentime developing the TSAB structure some more. Perhaps even showing her handling investigations, negotiations and throwing around strategies, while she could have gotten a lot of combat scenes (and for pitty's sake, at least a transformation scene) during the Cradle battle.

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Yea what is with this board?
We like debating. Always have.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:02   Link #330
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One good FateNanohaVivio scene was the one where Vivio fell down, since it came up later to show Nanoha and Vivio's growth. Vivio wanted to become stronger to make Mama proud, and Mama learned to be softer.

It was perhaps the only good use the season made of Fate's greater experience with children, as it helped highlight Nanoha's lack and gave her an example to learn from.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:22   Link #331
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Yes, I agree that was one of the better scenes.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:26   Link #332
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I wouldn't say it highlighted any kind of lack or advantage, just different parenting styles. By Fate's own admission, she didn't do much raising of Erio or Caro.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:37   Link #333
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Regardless, it at least showed a growth in both Vivio and Nanoha when the scene in the Cradle arrived. Had we not had the prior scene, the Cradle scene would have a lot less impact.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:41   Link #334
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A whole two pages talking about people getting shafted, and Touma never came up once.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:42   Link #335
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
But the movie wasn't a trainwreck, Nanya. Some things were replaced, some things were added. Yet in the end, I'm sure the movie would be the more liked of the two if given a poll. I like both, for different reasons. But I see nothing to suggest the movie was a trainwreck outside of it not progressing the way you would like it to.
The movie WAS a trainwreck, Demi, it's just that the focus on Fate and the pretty special effects masks things that were wrong with it.

Point 1: Raising Heart has its modes pre-installed in the movie, and yet Yuuno never used them. it's never explained WHY, since he's the one who told Nanoha the password to activate Raising Heart. In Season 1, Nanoha thought up the staff, shooting modes and the barrier jacket.

Point 2: Yuuno's role in season 1 was to be the mentor and teacher of Nanoha, and yet the role of teaching Nanoha magic went to Raising Heart exclusively. So, I ask, what was his role in the movie after Nanoha got Raising Heart?

Point 3: Nanoha had NO motivation in the movie to be the way she was. It's never explained about her parents, it's never explained about her family. She just acts the way she did in the series with NO EXPLANATION at all.

The movie doesn't explain and you're supposed to just go along with it.

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A whole two pages talking about people getting shafted, and Touma never came up once.
That's because *some* people around here think he's a Marty Stu on par with Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: TNG.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I get the fact some of you dislike the fact Fate's a main character
I don't dislike Fate as a main character, despite my comments.

I dislike the fact that she's sucking away development for other characters and causing THEIR development to suffer as a result.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:02   Link #336
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The movie WAS a trainwreck, Demi, it's just that the focus on Fate and the pretty special effects masks things that were wrong with it.

Point 1: Raising Heart has its modes pre-installed in the movie, and yet Yuuno never used them. it's never explained WHY, since he's the one who told Nanoha the password to activate Raising Heart. In Season 1, Nanoha thought up the staff, shooting modes and the barrier jacket.

Point 2: Yuuno's role in season 1 was to be the mentor and teacher of Nanoha, and yet the role of teaching Nanoha magic went to Raising Heart exclusively. So, I ask, what was his role in the movie after Nanoha got Raising Heart?

Point 3: Nanoha had NO motivation in the movie to be the way she was. It's never explained about her parents, it's never explained about her family. She just acts the way she did in the series with NO EXPLANATION at all.

The movie doesn't explain and you're supposed to just go along with it.



That's because *some* people around here think he's a Marty Stu on par with Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: TNG.
1.) The device was clearly much smarter and advanced in the movie, and did mostly everything for Nanoha at the start. It's an AU, the events and how they take place can and usually are different.

2.) He had less of a role for sure, but the only real problem I had with the movie was time constraints. And with things already feeling rushed at times, there was need for change. I'd say Yuno's role was still to support Nanoha, it just wasn't to mentor her. He helped bind the robots near the end of the movie, for instance. And helped her escape the Asura to go save Fate.

3.) A worthy sacrifice if to avoid the first three episodes of monster of the week. I question how many people actually watch the movie without having first watched the series. It's made for fans. You might garner some new fans in the process, but these minor details won't affect them either, as they have no clue what took place during the series.

The movie is no 10/10 but when I compare it to the original season, they both have their pros and cons, yet I don't see how the movie is a less enjoyable watch.

Quote:
I dislike the fact that she's sucking away development for other characters and causing THEIR development to suffer as a result.
The thing is, as far as screen time goes, I'd say she has a normal amount for being a main character. Nanoha is likely to have even more than her. Having said that, I'd say she certainly has the most development of any character in the series. I just see it as her screen time being used effectively. A lot of characters have a good amount of screen time and they make nothing out of it. I don't see how this is Fate's fault.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:08   Link #337
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
1.) The device was clearly much smarter and advanced in the movie, and did mostly everything for Nanoha at the start. It's an AU, the events and how they take place can and usually are different.

2.) He had less of a role for sure, but the only real problem I had with the movie was time constraints. And with things already feeling rushed at times, there was need for change. I'd say Yuno's role was still to support Nanoha, it just wasn't to mentor her. He helped bind the robots near the end of the movie, for instance.

3.) A worthy sacrifice if to avoid the first three episodes of monster of the week. I question how many people actually watch the movie without having first watched the series. It's made for fans. You might garner some new fans in the process, but these minor details won't affect them either, as they have no clue what took place during the series.

The movie is no 10/10 but when I compare it to the original season, they both have their pros and cons, but I don't see how the movie is a less enjoyable watch.
1: Yes, I can grant you that, but in making the device smarter and more advanced, they dumbed Nanoha down as well as restrict Yuuno's means of being there.

2: Wasn't a good chunk of the movie dedicated to Fate? Look, I know a movie needs to cut stuff out, but my problems with Raising Heart being the way it was could have been solved if the movie had just EXPLAINED ANYTHING about Raising Heart. Did Yuuno get it just a few days before he got to Earth and could only just turn it on but hadn't figured out how to work the powers of it? Or just Yuuno using it in staff form (albeit looking differently than Nanoha's version) would have fixed a lot of problems I had with it.

3: The problem with this, Demi, is one major thing. The movie was billed to be for NEW fans, who hadn't seen the series and would totally make sense for them. It's a nice treat for older fans, but they shouldn't have billed the movie to be for new fans unless they explain everything.

If you're a new fan, the movie has to be able to stand on its own to explain stuff and, quite frankly, the movie NEEDS the series to fill in the gaps that it leaves out, so, it fails as a movie that's meant for new people.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:11   Link #338
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Nanya, you're looking at this wrong. Nanoha isn't the main character her show, never has been. Everything Nanoha does always serves to reinforce the other characters around her (with StrikerS being the sole exception).

Nanoha is the ultimate side character. The first movie may have been titled Nanoha, but Fate was the main character.

Look at it that way, and everything falls into place.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:16   Link #339
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Nanya, you're looking at this wrong. Nanoha isn't the main character her show, never has been. Everything Nanoha does always serves to reinforce the other characters around her (with StrikerS being the sole exception).

Nanoha is the ultimate side character. The first movie may have been titled Nanoha, but Fate was the main character.

Look at it that way, and everything falls into place.
Well, she DID first start as a side character...
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:23   Link #340
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
The thing is, as far as screen time goes, I'd say she has a normal amount for being a main character. Nanoha is likely to have even more than her. Having said that, I'd say she certainly has the most development of any character in the series. I just see it as her screen time being used effectively. A lot of characters have a good amount of screen time and they make nothing out of it. I don't see how this is Fate's fault.
It's not Fate's fault, per se, but with the writer's deciding to pander to an audience. At least in the series, we got plausible motivations and understanding of Nanoha's character (the whole Arisa/Suzuka fight). That formed the basis for why Nanoha was able to reach out to Fate. Both that, and Nanoha's incredible maturity, are things that are never explained in the movie, and are valid criticisms. But because Nanoha is now seen as less important than Fate, her backstory and development suffers as a result.

But we've been over this before, Demi, you know this.

Think of a series like a well-balanced meal. Sure, you probably like steak. But what would you prefer? Just the steak? Or would you like some sauces to go with it, a nice carbonated beverage, some gourmet mexi fries and steamed and cheese-covered broccoli to with it, and perhaps some cheesecake for dessert? Without all those extra characters getting their development, the meal as a whole suffers, becoming less than it should be.

Making something that was better than S1 shouldn't have been a high bar to clear. It's perhaps better in some ways, but it failed in ways it should not have. And in the second movie, we find that yet more backstory and development was cut from other characters, and a particular scene remained.

Look, I like characters, too. But I am mature enough to realize when the focus on them has come at a great cost to the other cast members, and say, "That ain't right."

Lastly, calling us "rejects" behind our backs isn't helpful. We can have differences of opinion, and not resort to insults spoken out of supposed earshot. If that's how you think of us, then why are you here, mingling with us rejects? I used to think that, even if you were a big Fate fan, that you were at least a decent enough person to recognize and accept other people's differences of opinion. I'd really hate to find out that was wrong.
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